Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

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Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by norvic »

Global Administrator wrote:Remember all REAL dealers are members of stamp dealer trade bodies.
There are recognised trade bodies in every country, though I suspect many of them have less influence in the global philatelic economy. The (UK) Philatelic Traders' Association has an international membership, as does the American Stamp Dealers' Association but nowadays you can buy internationally, very easily, without knowing much about the trade associations in the countries you are buying from - if indeed you actually know where the dealer is located.

And then there is the IPDA.

What constitutes a real dealer?
What constitutes a stamp dealer trade body?

Has the internet changed not only the number of people trading in stamps as a business, but also the scope and validity of trade bodies?
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by GlenStephens »

I guess it largely depends on the value and complexity of the material one buys. :mrgreen:

Someone buying mostly few dollar topical sets and thematics etc, can I am sure do so quite safely on ebay etc.

Or if you buy super specialised areas like numeral cancels from Tasmania or Victoria, or Nyasaland Plate Flaws, or USA Imprint Blocks etc, are buying in detailed areas the fakers avoid.

However those seeking mainstream "MUH" stamps that run into many $100s and $1000s on ebay, from sellers with nothing whatever behind them, are taking a HUGE risk. Often a MUH Kangaroo will be FOUR times the price of a MLH one. So a $500 hinged stamp getting re-gummed for $10 by these spivs, gets them $2,000 next week off the ebay "Bunny Bargains Hunters".

Many dealers can't pick professional German regums, and 99.9% of collectors certainly can't.

The ebay Lemmings placed masses of bids to secure this REGUM recently for over $A7000 from "TenShillings" - latest handle of the long running regumming Bristol cartel. All banned by ebay in the END, but new Hydra Heads keep popping up. I sold a similar MLH one last month for $2000. Regum that, and you get $7000 as can be seem. You can't save stupid people from themselves.

If offered to me or any kosher dealer in a year for purchase, I'll offer $1,500 so I can sell it as "mint - regummed" for $2000 again -

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Australia-Roo-SG-15-Sc-14-1913-14 ... 1382521832
Image
Anyone with a quarter of brain, planning to spend $7000 on an alleged "MUH" stamp from an unknown seller, would google the name of the seller - right to do some checks? Clearly NOT - or they'd have seen this as first matches -

https://www.stampboards.com/search.php?keywords=%22tenshillin ... mit=Search

Buying early Imperforates from ANYWHERE that are extensively repaired, re-backed, and manipulated can't also be picked by most collectors. But look SUPERB in ebay scans.

I have this on my Rarity Page now for $A250, and state it is very professional repaired. Most members here, with great respect, would not have a clue. Offered on ebay as 'Superb Used' it would get $2000 or so.
Image
Same goes with anything overprinted that is worth a lot more than non overprints. MILLIONS of dollars a month globally is extracted from dopey collectors via ebay etc, by sellers who are just as clueless as the buyers, OR by conmen who know darn well that after a short period, the buyer right to return for refund is GONE FOREVER.

Buy ANY of these above off Mark Bloxham, Argyll Atkin, Richard Juzwin or Michael Rogers etc, and YEARS down the track you'll get a refund if you detect it.

I am Life Member of the American Stamp Dealers' Association in New York (ASDA) and the Philatelic Traders Society in London (PTS), and IFSDA, (not to be confused with IPDA that most with a credit card can join rapidly!) and in 35 years have never had an issue with any 3 recognised trade bodies. Which either means some 10,000s of my past clients are all totally stupid and blind and clueless, OR I have a good and consistent eye re condition and grading. :lol: :lol:

Any large full time dealer who is NOT a member of one of these 3 above, would have me at least asking "WHY NOT?". Fees are a few $100 a year, so it will not be cost. It presumably will be some other reason. :idea:

It is a bit like buying a used car. You can pay $5,000 off a dealer with trade association surveillance and warranty, or you can buy the same model car at near the same price from a dodgy looking Jamaican with dreadlocks and tatoos or whatever, who wants cash payment, and prefers to do the deal in a car park somewhere.

Many do the latter every day globally. One of our daughters did much the same recently on a Rav4 and the gearbox blew up within days. Cost to fix it - near what the car cost. No warranty of course, and being 20 something, no brains to get an AAA type check done on it first. We all know stories like that. 8)

There will be the usual posts here along the lines "I buy stamps happily off billybob939596848 and have never been unhappy" - often sadly posted from folks that would not be able to spot a repair or regum or fake overprint, if it jumped up, and bit them on the bum. :)

Which sadly is why the "billybob939596848" sellers stay in business, pretty often. "We offer money back guarantees". Sure, right. When it comes time to SELL is when the reality often hits home. I see it EVERY week, and am talking from experience. The utter 4th rate defective garbage I see on a constant basis, that very good money was paid for on ebay, would blow your mind. :roll: :roll: :twisted:

Experienced stamp dealers are like doctors - we generally get to see the problem well past when any preventative action can be taken. Or WE get to break the bad news - your "$10,000 of "savvy ebay bargains" are worth $1,000 in the real market." :idea:

I can only repeat below what I said earlier today to a member here, waffling about going to the Police as he bought an expensive stamp off a 'dealer', who is NOT a member of any leading dealer body, and who now claims stamp is forged, and is not getting anywhere. Durrhhh.

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=60337
Well if you are CERTAIN of your allegations, by all means air the details and images here.

Remember all REAL dealers are members of stamp dealer trade bodies.

They have **ZERO** tolerance of member dealers selling forged stamps as genuine.

Which is why many savvy collectors choose to deal ONLY with members of real stamp trade bodies for pricier stamps, as they will DEMAND the dealer refund you on a fake or regum etc.

Any established professional dealer would refund automatically anyway if he was shown a stamp they sold, was proven a fake, WITHOUT being forced to by any dealer body.

On ebay etc, you have no such protection, and as we have shown 1000 times here, it can be a sewer pit for Bunnies - where you simply kiss your money goodbye, when the account is closed, and your money is gone forever. i.e. -

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=58971

Leaving negative feedbacks for a crook who has run off with ~$30,000 is not going to get your money back. Read the thread above. :idea: :roll:
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by Parisboy »

"Waffling?" Thank you Glen.

I asked a genuine question, was helped by a generous contributor and I am happy with that.

I thought the board was a tool to help each other not disparage those who haven't got 30-odd years of experience.

I was sent a fake stamp, I am trying to get a refund and the seller is trying it on.

Although I bought the stamp on Delcampe all my research indicates that he is a professional dealer of long standing.

I cannot see if he is affiliated with any societies or not. Not all dealers handle their affairs professionally unfortunately.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by Global Administrator »

Parisboy wrote:

I cannot see if he is affiliated with any societies or not.
Why not?

They all have superb websites. Designed just so people like YOU can tell if you are dealing with a pro or a pretender.

If you have time to waste talking to totally bored and overworked French Police (who I suspect this week that have FAR more important things on their collective minds, like mass terrorist massacres there) versus an ancient stamp that may or may not be what you were told it was. You'll do FAR better then to spend 2 minutes to check if he is ACTUALLY a real accredited dealer BEFORE you bought. The ENTIRE point of my post above actually.

Not a real dealer? Well except the worst.

But those "on Line Bargains" -- impossible to pass by - I know! Like those 'solid Gold GENUINE Rolexes' in pubs on Friday night for 100 Euros .. more great buys for the wise. :lol: :lol:

You have in effect bought a "Genuine Picasso" for a song, from someone in lane-way in Marseilles, and now want the Police to charge him for fraud. Good luck. :arrow:
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by Parisboy »

Belgium actually....

He does have a very good website but I can't find any affiliations on it.

I am really surprised that anybody asks for help and advice on here to be honest...
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by norvic »

However, some dealers have quite good reputations without being members of any trade bodies. Being a member of the PTS entitles you to many things including a stand at Stampex: I don't want and couldn't afford that.

The PTS Directory, listing all member dealers, is free to all members - and all ABPS affiliated societies for their libraries.

The PTS also helps out with 'problem customers'. Could be useful, but money up front seems to avoid problems. Nobody has charged-back from PayPal: postal insurance would seem to cover allegations of non-receipt.

I'm not saying that membership doesn't have its benefits, but I'm not sure that £180 pa is justified. That means I'm not in their directory and don't display their logo. So be it. Over 300 non-customers have downloaded my Machin catalogue and some of them have become customers.

Of course it is buyer beware - know your supplier by his reputation as well as his trade body membership. Don't assume a glossy website means a big company. Look further than face value.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by gugusg »

In France there is the CNEP (CHAMBRE SYNDICALE FRANÇAISE DES NÉGOCIANTS ET EXPERTS EN PHILATÉLIE) and almost every dealer are affiliated to this.

Some dealers, affiliated, are well known in Paris' place to be really dishonnest. They buy mint hinged stamps and regum it to sell it again. Everyone knows it, no-one take actions, especially CNEP.

This is no longer a sign of confidence to see a dealer is affiliated to CNEP.

And if you have any issue, good luck with them to have a support. In this kind of organisation, a lot of people have a lot of friend, I can assure you that this will be well over your reclamation ...

Some sellers on ebay and delcampe are more honnest, by far, that some dealers in Drouot's street or french shops ...

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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by mobbor »

norvic wrote:
Global Administrator wrote:Remember all REAL dealers are members of stamp dealer trade bodies.
Whatever happened to Blue Owl?
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by norvic »

I'm sure somebody knows what this means. :?
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by gavin-h »

mobbor wrote:
norvic wrote:
Global Administrator wrote:Remember all REAL dealers are members of stamp dealer trade bodies.
Whatever happened to Blue Owl?
norvic wrote:I'm sure somebody knows what this means. :?
Ian,

Grab yourself a cuppa and enjoy these 18 pages:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28978
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by norvic »

Oh yes, the saga of the APTA. Been here long enough to remember a discussion, if not the content.
Been here long enough to know that I haven't got time to wade through 18pp of 'dodgy-dealer' discussion.

But I think we have established that - for many purposes and without the benefit of 5000+ charachters much of it pasted from other discussions -

NOT all REAL dealers are members of stamp dealer trade bodies. and

Membership by a dealer of a recognised trade body does not necessarily confer benefits to collectors/customers.

There is no single solution; no 'one-size-fits-all'.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by mozzerb »

Isn't there a word for people who happily pay top prices for higher end material from respectable dealers who are members of trade associations, because that's a guarantee of genuineness? Oh yeah, that was it:
Image
Seriously, if you're buying that sort of material, you need to personally know your stuff, or at least form a judgement on the dealer based on more than the logos they have on their publicity. There have been plenty of "respectable dealers" who were members of whatever the local trade body was who have turned out to be crooked.

The Blue Owl guy was a case in point, as detailed in an extensive Stampboards thread -- "Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs? He was a member of APTA (in fact IIRC he was on the committee at one point). Meanwhile, Glen hasn't been a member of it for years without that noticeably affecting anything.

In general, trade bodies of that kind usually have two contradictory things among their declared aims: acting as a sort of trades union for their members, and mediating disputes between them and outsiders. In the case of the latter happening, natural human defensiveness and ingroup favouritism means that the former aim tends to take right of way.

Another recent case in point was the "Wellington Collection" auction of GB material by Galerie Dreyfus (only briefly mentioned on Stampboards, but extensively discussed on the Mulready Group on Yahoo and in the GBPS Newsletter). The general expert opinion was that (a) the "collection" was actually stock from a high end PTS member, (b) it contained an extraordinary amount of fakes, (c) many of which were backed by certificates from expertisers that would not ... normally be the go-to choice for this area.

(For additional comedy, the PTS helpfully explained that they couldn't do much as the leading such expertiser's firm had not been a member for some years, although he was still using the PTS logo and they hadn't got round to removing him from the list on their website. The general effect of their responses brought the words "sand" and "ostrich" to mind.)

So yeah, membership of a trade body generally means little as a gauge of whether a dealer is trustworthy or not. You just have to fall back on reputation and personal assessment.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by GlenStephens »

mobbor wrote:
Whatever happened to Blue Owl?
As per the referenced thread a couple of posts up, Blue Owl Stamps were expelled from APTA (and hence expelled from IFSDA) for selling forged OS perfins, and selling re-perforated stamps etc.

All exposed here on the thread referenced above. APTA ended up demanding the forged stamps and the fake perfin equipment be turned over. Later comments from members here after that can also be read.

Norvic started this thread and headed it "Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?"

And when reminded of this very relevant matter replies -

"I haven't got time to wade through 18pp of 'dodgy-dealer' discussion."

Well to save you time Ian, this post is the cliff-notes summary just for you. It may be boring for you to read it, as you are very busy, but it is a real life example of answering your exact question.

To answer your thread question - Blue Owl Stamps is NOT a member of the American Stamp Dealers' Association in New York (ASDA) or the Philatelic Traders Society in London (PTS), or APTA or the IFSDA, (not to be confused with IPDA that most with a credit card can join rapidly!)

As to whether collectors here "trust" anyone expelled from IFSDA for forging OS perfins of stamps etc, well your response is all here - assuming you do have some time to actually read answers relevant to your own thread question -

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28978&start=800

This dealer has been very quiet on the radar in recent times, and I certainly can't recall hearing of any fake material, and that is great to report. Everyone can learn from past errors, and this dealer seems to have done so.

Would Jude Koch sell MORE material if he was a member of IFSDA -- of course he would, as there would be more collector confidence and trust, when offering high end material, and I am sure at some point he will re-apply to join.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by norvic »

Global Administrator wrote:Norvic started this thread and headed it "Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?"

And when reminded of this very relevant matter replies -

"I haven't got time to wade through 18pp of 'dodgy-dealer' discussion."
No need to reprise it Glen. I should have written "I haven't got time to wade through 18pp of 'dodgy-dealer' discussion again."

I had read it all when originally posted, or at least most of it even though I don't collect or deal in the Australian material being discussed. But it was a fascinating discussion, most interesting.

But you miss the point. Although your original point which I quoted was absolutely spot on in relation to the matter being discussed in the thread in which you wrote it (an expensive stamp), I wanted to find out what the membership generally felt about dealers, and about trade associations in the 21st century.

And as members have written:
mozzerb wrote:... membership of a trade body generally means little as a gauge of whether a dealer is trustworthy or not. You just have to fall back on reputation and personal assessment.
gugusg wrote:This is no longer a sign of confidence to see a dealer is affiliated to CNEP.
So, it is horses for courses. Your having written "Remember all REAL dealers are members of stamp dealer trade bodies" it is there to be taken out of context and requoted by anybody. "Glen Stephens says anybody who isn't a member of a trade body isn't a REAL dealer."

We know what you mean, but generalisations can be misleading.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by GlenStephens »

Ian I can only repeat what I posted -

GlenStephens wrote:
I guess it largely depends on the value and complexity of the material one buys. :mrgreen:

Someone buying mostly few dollar topical sets and thematics etc, can I am sure do so quite safely on ebay etc.

Or if you buy super specialised areas like numeral cancels from Tasmania or Victoria, or Nyasaland Plate Flaws, or USA Imprint Blocks etc, are buying in detailed areas the fakers avoid.

However those seeking mainstream "MUH" stamps etc that run into many $100s and $1000s on ebay, from sellers with nothing whatever behind them, are taking a HUGE risk.
Image
Parisboy above is a PERFECT example. Instead of asking advice here first, where the world's greatest expert on £5 Oranges is a member, he barges in, pays 300 quid ($A600!) for this clearly forged £5 GB, and now is wailing to the moon that the seller, Delcampe and the Police are all horrible meanies etc, because HE get conned! His mistake is everyone's fault except his. How often do we hear that in life? "My genuine solid Gold Rolex I paid 50 quid for in the pub last night is FAKE" :lol: :lol: :lol:

Had ParisBoy bought this fake off an ISFDA dealer, they would DEMAND that dealer refund immediately if the dealer did not do so. It is as simple as that. Open and shut.

An on-line bargain is not a bargain if you lose you 300 quid, and many hours of time and raised blood pressure, trying to get your dough back

Norvic you sell mostly new issue GB covers, and new specialised machins and new issues etc, a niche area, where often each piece is just a few quid, and no-one is likely to forge them of course.

I still think someone in your position would benefit greatly from being a PTS Member. I can sponsor you if you wish. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Not being one, costs you money over a year I feel sure ... more than the subs run to, if not for the simple fact the PTS online specialty directory will attract many new clients looking for a reliable supplier.

And whatever you think now, that PTS Shield on your letterhead and website is a VERY reassuring symbol to savvy new clients. As it gives them peace of mind.

It places you on a professional plateau way above that of the 10,000 amateurs selling similar material on ebay etc, 99.99% of whom have zero chance of qualifying for PTS membership.

When I need any work done on my home I insist the painter/carpenter/tiler etc be a LICENSED person for that work. Yes I might pay a tad more than the Korean or Romanian guy with a handwritten note on the supermarket board might charge me, but I can live with that for peace of mind, in case the new balcony collapses later on etc. :mrgreen:

But I repeat - for stamp dealers selling low price material not likely to be dodgy, it is far less important than for those mostly selling 3 and 4 figure pieces.

gugusg's vague and non specific comment below is of course total nonsense - and is bordering on defamatory -

"Some dealers, affiliated, are well known in Paris' place to be really dishonest. They buy mint hinged stamps and regum it to sell it again. Everyone knows it, no-one take actions, especially CNEP."

When he posts here just ONE detailed example of a regummed stamp being purchased by him or others as 'original gum', and then alerting CNEP or IFSDA of that and them taking no action, his comments may have some credibility, but of course he will be unable to do so. As it simply does not occur.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by mobbor »

I probably should apologise - I was being facetious re blueowl comment.

My views as one member are:-

1. Don't trust anybody until they've earned it. Membership of a trade association is no guarantee of anything. Exactly the same approach applies to people/organisations that provide certificates.

2. Don't collect older valuable MUH, perf. O.S. Aust KGV's, Roos & similar, or anything else that's known to be frequently forged: it's asking for trouble.

3. If you're going to collect specialist material that is potentially valuable, you need to become an expert yourself.

Just read the thread again. Maybe I should apologise again because it's all been said already.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by Global Administrator »

mobbor wrote:
Membership of a trade association is no guarantee of anything.
Wrong, you clearly have not been reading.

Re IFSDA stamp dealer bodies, it is a TOTAL GUARANTEE that if a member sells you a forged or re-gummed stamp or perf OS stamp, as genuine or original gum etc you WILL get your money back. No question.

That may not be important to you. Ebay is the perfect place for you in that case!

But for many other collectors, it really means something. Horses for courses.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by WEIRD AL »

I guess whenever we buy from a dealer we all should ask for something in writing from the dealer as well.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by Global Administrator »

norvic wrote:
Being a member of the PTS entitles you to many things including a stand at Stampex: I don't want and couldn't afford that.
Ian, agree on the "many things" - dealer to dealer discounts for starters, and dealers and auction houses GLOBALLY will mail you material ahead of payment based on PTS membership, as you are then verified and trustworthy in their eyes. That is worth way over the 150 quid dues I pay a year.

I've been a member for 30 years I suppose, and have never once been to a 'Stampex', much less had a stand there. A total non issue to me. :mrgreen:

Having this PTS logo on your letterhead, business cards, emails and website etc is worth MANY times 150 quid a year, believe me. Collectors GLOBALLY trust it. No part time amateur can gain membership, and collectors know that.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by mozzerb »

Global Administrator wrote:Re IFSDA stamp dealer bodies, it is a TOTAL GUARANTEE that if a member sells you a forged or re-gummed stamp or perf OS stamp, as genuine or original gum etc you WILL get your money back. No question.
Does the money for that come from the IFSDA or the trade body if the member decamps or refuses to cough up? I couldn't see a reference to that on their website.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by norvic »

Global Administrator wrote:
mobbor wrote:
Membership of a trade association is no guarantee of anything.
Wrong, you clearly have not been reading.

----------8<------

Horses for courses.
Absolutely agree with the last line, and your above response to me, but what is good for IFSDA is only good if the national body is 'good'. If you believe what was written about the French body, your would agree that it doesn't warrant such confidence. It must be the exception, though some people have reservations about some of the PTS's activities.
mozzerb wrote:For additional comedy, the PTS helpfully explained that they couldn't do much as the leading such expertiser's firm had not been a member for some years, although he was still using the PTS logo and they hadn't got round to removing him from the list on their website. The general effect of their responses brought the words "sand" and "ostrich" to mind.
Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics - clearing Machins stock before Royal Mail burn them all, singles, booklets, booklet panes, regionals - lists here: or email/DM your general needs and I'll let you know whether it's worth sending a wants list.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by Global Administrator »

Norvic as I have stated gugusg's comments re CNEP are probably defamatory in law if they take action, unless he offers examples where regums and fraud HAS been reported the CNEP re members that they have not acted upon. He cannot of course.

Same with mozzerb comment. If he cares to post here and let us know the name of the alleged dealer who allegedly used the PTS logo "for some years", and the time frame this allegedly occurred, when not a member, I'll check this with the PTS Secretary, and report back here.

Until then, that too is pure hearsay, and I do not not believe for one moment the PTS has any record of this alleged matter. And I do not believe for one second he will share with us the alleged dealer who allegedly did this.

Lets stick to FACTS please folks. This vague Dorothy Dix nonsense above, of referring to vague 3rd hand hearsay, is not how we do things here. :idea:
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by mobbor »

mozzerb wrote:
Global Administrator wrote:Re IFSDA stamp dealer bodies, it is a TOTAL GUARANTEE that if a member sells you a forged or re-gummed stamp or perf OS stamp, as genuine or original gum etc you WILL get your money back. No question.
This comforts me not at all. Who makes the final determination & how?

I refer back to my point 2. Just don't buy this stuff. As far as I'm concerned it's possible sometimes to tell one of these is a fake: but it's not possible to determine that it isn't.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by mozzerb »

Global Administrator wrote:Same with mozzerb comment. If he cares to post here and let us know the name of the alleged dealer who allegedly used the PTS logo "for some years", and the time frame this allegedly occurred, when not a member, I'll check this with the PTS Secretary, and report back here.

Until then, that too is pure hearsay, and I do not not believe for one moment the PTS has any record of this alleged matter. And I do not believe for one second he will share with us the alleged dealer who allegedly did this.
Oh for crying out loud, why does everyone else have to be lying if you don't like what they say?

I was trying to be tactful (just for a change, you know, see what it feels like) but for the record: from an undated letter from the PTS to the editor of the GBPS Newsletter received 2 December 2011, published in newsletter 333, Jan/Feb 2012, subject "The Dreyfus Affair":

... it should be unambiguously noted that neither David Brandon nor Mark Brandon is a member of the PTS. Indeed David Brandon has not been a member for a number of years, despite his continued use of the logo and mention of his membership, which he has been told to remove from all his advertisements.

The editor reported that Brandon were still listed on the PTS site at the time of publication, although on checking both sites I see mutual non-reference there now. Satisfied, or does a letter from the PTS count as hearsay too?

While we're on the subject, I notice you completely ignored my question:
mozzerb wrote:
Global Administrator wrote:Re IFSDA stamp dealer bodies, it is a TOTAL GUARANTEE that if a member sells you a forged or re-gummed stamp or perf OS stamp, as genuine or original gum etc you WILL get your money back. No question.
Does the money for that come from the IFSDA or the trade body if the member decamps or refuses to cough up? I couldn't see a reference to that on their website.
So to follow the house style: please provide ACTUAL proof that you are totally guaranteed to get your money back whatever happens when you buy fakes from a IFSDA dealer, WITH documentation. Otherwise, this statement is just hot air.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by Global Administrator »

mobbor wrote:
Who makes the final determination & how?
Mike, people who are experienced in stamps for decades. What an amazing thought!

Some of us can't fly a 737, or conduct open heart surgery, speak Swedish, write computer code for Macs, play a 12 string guitar, tune a Ferrari, or build a Church etc.

I can't do any of these things. Can you? :mrgreen:

I can however, like most experienced dealers, detect a professional re-gum, and even skilful stamp repairs. None of the folks above can detect a stamp re-gum, and I can't tune a Ferrari. We all have skills in our field after several decades. 8)

You can of course choose not to buy anything you mention above - your call entirely.

Stick to your tiny flyspecks on 1d KGV head stamps - your call. No forger is going to fake them, and you know more about them than the faker does - and indeed most dealers know. Lovely comfy little Universe. :mrgreen:

Your advice to others here is "Don't collect older valuable MUH, perf. O.S. Aust KGV's, Roos & similar, or anything else that's known to be frequently forged" and luckily most collectors totally disagree with your advice. That's fine. I guess they will, as they have for 150 years, rely on buying such material from folks who know something about those areas. Seems pretty simple. :?:
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by gugusg »

Well Glen,

I do not have a lot of time to respond, but I will a little.

Some dealers in France are very borderline. It is a fact, everyone in France knows it. Maybe you do not know very well the stamp market in France, but this is a fact that almost french collectors (and dealers ...) will tell you.

I will give you an example, without diffamation.

Perimmob Philatelie is member of CNEP
http://www.perimmob-philatelie.fr/philatelie-paris

On his website, you will see he is claiming to be "murcii" on ebay. With that account murcii, he sold numerous a very dodgy items (reperfed, regummed, etc. You can check on asppi website some of items he sold : http://asppi.org/). In addition, this seller is doing certificate of expertise (he is not well known as expert in France) where he is playing with words (like saying "original gum" without saying "mint never hinged", because the original gum is still here but has been re-applied on stamp to remove hing-mark). (http://asppi.org/experts.php?expert=perimmob)

You will also find some informations about a trial that they lose for abusing old man that wanted to sell his collection (5000€ for a collection worth 150000€. It seems that french justice found it was an abuse of vulnerable person). It seems they appealed the court for a new trial, but they lost the first judgement. (http://philatlemcen.blogspot.fr/2012/05/le-crime-ne-paye-pas-meme-en-philatelie.html)

I, by myself, never asked something to CNEP because I have never been abused by him.

But don't you think that CNEP should at least, by itself, kick out that kind of dealer ? (http://cnep.fr/index.php/les-negociants-en-france?start=78)

See some of his listings, with private auction :
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/181633846443#ht_1781wt_1120 (luxe, gomme propre et nette : probably regummed, and the scan speak for itself for the "luxe" thing)
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/Beau-N-154-1F-1F-de-la-1ere-serie-des-orphelins-neufs-/381116386029? (perf on top is very strange)
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/Bonnes-val-3-series-orphelins-dont-N1 ... 944wt_1219 (on this one he is telling : "neuf" and "gomme est propre et nette" : I could bet my house it is regummed)
(You could see the issues with theses stamps, and the fact that he is also telling to customer that prices in catalog are not good at all and telling new CV (from where ? imagination ?) : "Considérant que de nombreux timbres, principalement des périodes classiques et d’avant guerres, sont soit sous cotés, soit surcotés par les catalogues habituels qui ne reflètent donc pas la réalité du marché, nous indiquons à l’intention de nos clients notre propre évaluation de cote, qui est, sur ce timbre de XXX")"
My blog with my French General Colonie Collection : http://phila-colgen.blogspot.fr/
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by Global Administrator »

mozzerb wrote:
For additional comedy, the PTS helpfully explained that they couldn't do much as the leading such expertiser's firm had not been a member for some years, although he was still using the PTS logo and they hadn't got round to removing him from the list on their website. The general effect of their responses brought the words "sand" and "ostrich" to mind.
Mozzerb, Your part letter you posted from PTS shows that Brandon was told to remove the PTS logo from his website, and you confirm yourself that has been done.

If that is "sand" and "ostrich" in your mind, fair enough. Seems like normal due process to me. They told him to take off logo from his site etc.

Your preference might have been to send in Scotland Yard I suppose?

I have no idea if he simply resigned - do you? That would be different than if he were removed by the Board. Have you asked him?

For all we know you might have ASDA, NZSDA and PTS logos on your website for years too. Until someone raises that with those bodies, they are quite likely unaware of that. :idea:


============

Gugusg .. remember that the RPS and BPA only EVER say "Original Gum" whether hinged or not. If I was in doubt I'd ASK seller in writing! 8)

Pointing out things HERE you say are not what should be is NOT what I asked you for. Which was EVIDENCE of something you KNOW was reported to CNEP and who took no action.

You claim they do little or nothing, but as yet have offered no evidence of that or even shown one case where they did not act.

That is the point.

They are easy to contact. Assuming he is a member (I have no idea!) cut and paste your post above and email it in to them, and let us know what they reply -

http://www.cnep-france.fr/contact/

How on earth can you state "I could bet my house it is regummed" :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

From that photo no way to tell.

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/Bonnes-val-3-series-orphelins-dont-N1 ... 1635188520

Sadly despite 5 years of learning French at high school, I can hardly speak a word, and admire you folks with 2 and more languages, so for me most of the links I can barely follow the content. A Shame.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by gugusg »

============
Global Administrator wrote: Gugusg .. remember that the RPS and BPA only EVER say "Original Gum" whether hinged or not. If I was in doubt I'd ASK in writing! 8)

Pointing out things HERE you say are not what should be is NOT what I asked you for. Which was EVIDENCE of something you KNOW was reported to CNEP and who took no action.
Yes you will. But not everyone. As a dealer you should have ethics to not abuse people, they seems to do it !
Global Administrator wrote: You claim they do little or nothing, but as yet have offered no evidence of that or even shown one case where they did not act.

That is the point.

They are easy to contact. Assuming he is a member (I have no idea!) cut and paste your post above and email it in to them, and let us know what they reply -

http://www.cnep-france.fr/contact/
Yes they are in CNEP, read the links I provided !

As I said, there have been a judgement. A lot of collectors and dealers know exactly what is happening but strange, the CNEP never take action by itself to kick out black sheeps.

Read the ASPPI organisation, that tried to fight theses kind of dealer.

I could ask CNEP, but according to what I heard, they take no actions (or almost). A dealer that have been judged guilty is still selling ambiguous items is a fact. They can not say they do not know it. ... I have no time to make a croisade, I only select my dealers and I do not check if they are in whatever organisation. Their reputation is more reliable.
Global Administrator wrote: How on earth can you state "I could bet my house it is regummed" :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

From that photo no way to tell.

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/Bonnes-val-3-series-orphelins-dont-N1 ... 1635188520
Because this seller is playing with words ("Gomme propre et nette" means nothing), he shows nothing, and this is a private listing.

At best this regummed stamps, or hinged stamps, or whatever.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by Maxime Citerne »

gugusg wrote:Some dealers in France are very borderline. It is a fact, everyone in France knows it. Maybe you do not know very well the stamp market in France, but this is a fact that almost french collectors (and dealers ...) will tell you.
I am French and before emigrating to Germany I spent quite some time in Paris and other cities buying and selling stamps. Since 1993.

My experience with many French dealers is EXACTLY THE SAME as the one reported by gugusg. Agree 100%. We both are French, and we both know the French market. Point blank.

My first point is that I agree with Glenn that a dealer SHOULD be part of good standard organisation like APS for example. And my second point is that not all those organisations have same value: the French CNEP is just a big joke.

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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by Global Administrator »

Maxine ... I have little to do with France market so you guys know it better, but I also ask you too, have YOU directly reported a CNEF dealer to them who has sold you a fake or forgery, and what did they say?

They simply can't IGNORE valid complaints I am sure, and my experience with PTS and ASDA and ANDA is they DO act fast. :idea:

The dealer may be ordered to refund you, and that is a main point of this thread.

Seems like many in France chat about it, but no-one reports the dealers doing things!
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by Maxime Citerne »

Global Administrator wrote:Maxine ... I have little to do with France market so you guys know it better, but I also ask you too, have YOU directly reported a CNEF dealer to them who has sold you a fake or forgery, and what did they say?

They simply can't IGNORE valid complaints I am sure, and my experience with PTS and ASDA and ANDA is they DO act fast. :idea:

The dealer may be ordered to refund you, and that is a main point of this thread.

Seems like many in France chat about it, but no-one reports the dealers doing things!
Hi Glenn,

you are totally right that French people sometimes have a tendancy to chat a lot, but take less actions. There are exceptions though, but nevertheless I have observed this pattern as well.

I have never been until the point to ask the CNEP, for two reasons:

1- I always went in direct contact with the sellers (CNEP members) to solve my issues. I always left a deal BEFORE I could get messed up with (call that experience, or extreme caution). Sometimes I put those dishonest dealers in front of their lies or tricks. Sometimes not.

2- Yes, maybe I should have contacted the CNEP, but I decided not to do so because it is a complete lost of time: there are all a bunch of friends and they protect each other. On the other hand I would not hesitate to contact APS for example, because I know of the seriousness of that board.

My time is precious and I don´t like to waste it.

Hope my answer makes sense to you.

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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by mozzerb »

Global Administrator wrote:Mozzerb, Your part letter you posted from PTS shows that Brandon was told to remove the PTS logo from his website, and you confirm yourself that has been done.

If that is "sand" and "ostrich" in your mind, fair enough. Seems like normal due process to me. They told him to take off logo from his site etc.

Your preference might have been to send in Scotland Yard I suppose?

I have no idea if he simply resigned - do you? That would be different than if he were removed by the Board.
I've no idea either. However, the point of the quote (a fairly obvious one, I'd have thought) was that the PTS logo was there for "a number of years" on the Brandon site when he wasn't a member.

Since according to you the presence of such a logo is supposed to be clear proof that the displayer is a member and thus a trustworthy "real dealer", it hardly matters exactly why he left, or that it was eventually removed (when the matter was finally raised).

If you actually read my comment (an imposition on your posting time, I know) the "sand" and "ostrich" remarks were referring to the general case of the "Wellington Collection" sale of which the certificates were only a part. The PTS were not exactly proactive when complaints were received -- see the Mulready Group archives for the details (as linked to previously; may not be as long as the Blue Owl saga, but a LOT of discussion).

Oh yes, and you STILL haven't answered my question ...
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by Global Administrator »

Maxime Citerne wrote:
Yes, maybe I should have contacted the CNEP, but I decided not to do so because it is a complete lost of time: there are all a bunch of friends and they protect each other.

On the other hand I would not hesitate to contact APS for example, because I know of the seriousness of that board.
Max yes a shame you did not report the dealer/s to CNEP. :idea:

Remember these are professional Trade Bodies. EACH one has an Ethics and Complaints Sub-Committee

They cannot just "IGNORE" a written complaint!

They need to respond to you with a resolution of some kind, and I've been on Committees, and you'd be AMAZED how often judgment is found in favour of the collector.

Of course most dealers know each other, no question. However they do like to ensure high standards are kept.

But of course in all small towns the local cop/Gendarme knows everyone too, but still issues speeding and parking tickets, and charges people each day etc for all kinds of things. If you do not step out of line you will NEVER hear from the cop ... or the CNEP!

In most cases if you complain you were sold a dog, the DEALER will instantly refund if he thinks it will be before CNEP next month if he does not. If he is NOT in a dealer trade body he has no such fear - which gets back to this thread - "Do you only trust "real" dealers".

And if it does go before CNEP they will simply look at the stamp, decide it is a dog and ORDER him to refund you in 30 days, confirm to them he has done that, AND add a black mark to his file. As I said they just do not IGNORE the complaint - they are obliged to write back to you with their resolution.

Remember dealers know more things than most average collectors. Not only can we spot fakes and regums better than most collectors, we know WHERE the goods came from in many cases.

As a good example I sold this recently for $US150, and it was from the collection of Sir Ronald Brierley.
Image
Brierley used to own Stanley Gibbons UK and Australia, and was the Governor of the Reserve Bank Of New Zealand etc, so that gives these a very fine pedigree! Provenance is everything with these kind of things that are heavily faked.

SG J1-J7 £247 as mint – the 5/- is the scarcer THICK chalk faced paper. BCOF stamps are heavily forged as the underlying stamps have little value.

Indeed near all offered on ebay are fake. These were GUARANTEED by me in writing to be 105% genuine in all respects. Well centred, bright, and attractive.

The Sydney forger alone has probably sold 1000 x fake 5/- BCOF values alone via ebay over the years. So either take a chance on ebay to buy a set for $150 that you will get $5 for when YOU sell, or buy them for $150 with a written guarantee from a large dealer that they are kosher. And get your money back, or even a profit when you sell, as YOU have proof they are kosher.

Seems a total no brainer to me yet you can BET some brain dead "Ebay Bargain Hunter" will snap up this dog below any day soon - AUSTRALIAN cancel, creased, soiled, ripped out perfs, and an overprint applied with a low grade rubber handstamp. Value when it finally gets sold to a real dealer, when our clueless Bunny passes away - $1 as a space-filler. :roll: :roll: :roll:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/281562374212
Image
If anyone has a spare moment click the "report this item" button on this appalling fake.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/281562374212
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by acutipuerilis »

I just want to reiterate that those collecting in a specialised, valuable area simply need to know their stuff. I don't have thirty years' experience (which I guess makes me a clueless bunny), but in the second post that re-backing is just blatant - you can see the edge of the old cut-to-shape margin in places. Look carefully at scans on eBay etc., and you'll see the same thing, and avoid them. I'm sure that many of us do that all the time.

It's the same for recognising fakes, which are abundant in the German States area. I recently pointed out to Roger North (a real dealer? not sure, but he seems to be generally liked here) that he was selling a couple of blatant forgeries of the Oldenburg 1/3 g black on green as genuine (and those are by no means the only ones). No response, and I've reported them.

On the other hand, I have obtained some very rare, genuine stamps from complete unknowns for ludicrously little just by knowing the area and looking carefully. I've also seen some people claim things are fakes when they're clearly not (both here and on eBay). The buyer's knowledge weighs far more than reputation of the seller, in my opinion.

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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by maturin »

mozzerb wrote: From a 2011 letter from the PTS to the editor of the GBPS Newsletter:

... it should be unambiguously noted that neither David Brandon nor Mark Brandon is a member of the PTS. Indeed David Brandon has not been a member for a number of years, despite his continued use of the logo and mention of his membership, which he has been told to remove from all his advertisements.


How can this be? Brandon advertises very expensively priced stamps, many of which are rare enough realistically to require a return policy? And some from areas where the stamps are heavily forged .

Surely, the Brandons can afford the PTS dues? Is there something wrong with that dealer that I don't know about?

I asked > here < on SB recently whether Brandon certificates were reliable, with a few affirmatives, but no real consensus emerging.
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Re: Do you only trust "real" dealers and trade bodies?

Post by thecloudwatcher »

maturin wrote:
mozzerb wrote: From a 2011 letter from the PTS to the editor of the GBPS Newsletter:

... it should be unambiguously noted that neither David Brandon nor Mark Brandon is a member of the PTS. Indeed David Brandon has not been a member for a number of years, despite his continued use of the logo and mention of his membership, which he has been told to remove from all his advertisements.


How can this be? Brandon advertises very expensively priced stamps, many of which are rare enough realistically to require a return policy? And some from areas where the stamps are heavily forged .

Surely, the Brandons can afford the PTS dues? Is there something wrong with that dealer that I don't know about?

I asked > here < on SB recently whether Brandon certificates were reliable, with a few affirmatives, but no real consensus emerging.


One possible reason why they might not belong to the PTS is that they don't agree with/wish to abide by the PTS's Code of Ethics http://www.philatelic-traders-society.co.uk/SubMenu/PTS_Code_of_Ethics.aspx?id=225. I don't think the cost of membership is a factor - £150 per year is not going to break the bank!
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