POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

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POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

1. Stamp is totally fake
5
9%
2. It is not the blued paper variety
1
2%
3. Cancel is fake
18
32%
4. Has a large repair at left
1
2%
5. Has been heavily re-perforated
9
16%
6. Colour of stamp is wrong
1
2%
7. Looks like a perfectly nice SG 133
9
16%
8. Many perforations have been added
1
2%
9. Something else major is wrong
10
18%
10. Seems to have a bad crease
1
2%
11. Has 2 added corners
0
No votes
12. Is a £1 value changed into a £5
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 56

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POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

Image

This 1882 GB £5 Orange stamp is cancelled with a neat "Registered - Threadneedle Street London" oval cancel of "24 JA 83".

Has the usual large single lined Anchor watermarks on each side.

Has a 1985 Royal Philatelic Society London (RPSL) Clear photo Certificate saying - "on blued paper, is genuine"

SG 133. £15,000

Place your vote, and add a comment as to WHY you voted as you did. :idea:

Glen
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Lundy »

I am going for a majorly re-perfed at left but it is still a great looking stamp... Just think perfs look a little odd

And I am probably wrong! :D

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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Philexx »

I really don't know. The only thing I can see is what looks like a crease or damage of some type at the top under the perfs, middle. Suppose could be a repair too. The perfs do look rather perfect so as the poster above suggested I suppose it could also be a complete reperf. Can't wait to find out how wrong I was!
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by goof »

I'm going for the whole kit and caboodle being wrong, and there is one major thing that stands out to me but I won't say in case I spoil things :wink:

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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by aethelwulf »

I went with re-perfing. Some holes seem deep, some shallow.
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Greg Ioannou »

The ones I've seen have almost all had ironed-out creases, which usually don't show until you dip them in fluid. But being as I couldn't see one, or anything else wrong with it, I opted "nothing wrong with it."

I probably should have checked the date of the postmark, but I'm not at home so no reference books.

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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by gavin-h »

The watermarks look too clearly visible from the front, which makes me think they may be printed on the back in grey.

If that's the case, "Total Fake" gets my vote.

The rest of the "issues" are probably attempts to artificially age the thing.
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by jonattwood »

Perfs and colour look odd to me, I'd go with total forgery.

Wondering if it could be another stamp entirely that has had the design faded out and new one printed on, Sperati style.

I think there were some 6d telegraph stamps that would have been suitable donors for paper.

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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by JonEboy »

Well, in a completely contrary moment I went for 'nothing wrong with it'. Given the history of this type of Stampboards poll the chances of me being completely wrong are very high but my reasoning is as follows;

1. The cancel is within date for the issue of 'blued' paper
2. Whilst the perfs do look strange and far too regular in parts along the bottom it's no worse than a whole lot of stamps of the era
3. I have never owned, handled or looked to buy one. I simply don't have enough knowledge in this area and therefore I am clearly in 'bunny' territory. If I were going to buy one of these I would however get it from a reputable dealer..... :D

What gets me though is that if this is wrong, it fooled members of the RPSL who frankly are better placed than me to spot a wrong 'un.....

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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by acutipuerilis »

Hard to be sure without higher resolution, but looks to me like it's been trimmed on most or all sides, and the edges added and perfed. The colour being wrong is, I'd guess, to do with the scan - oranges are horrible to get accurately.
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by JohnB »

1883 is too early for this cancellation.
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by member »

On my screen the colour is pink, not orange.
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Allanswood »

My first thoughts were that it is 9, but that would also mean 3 as well. :?
So I haven't picked yet.
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by europhil »

With a little online sleuthing I found the answer -

9 - Something else major is wrong

To keep it interesting, I won't say what else is wrong.
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Greg Ioannou »

Isn't there a telegraph stamp with the same design? Could this be a telegraph stamp that someone's played with?

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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Flying Tiger »

I would like to see the photo certificate and a scan of the back of the stamp before I cast a vote.
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Wayne1951 »

JohnB wrote:1883 is too early for this cancellation.

Agree.

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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

Flying Tiger wrote:I would like to see the photo certificate and a scan of the back of the stamp before I cast a vote.
Good point. :)

I can advise the RPSL Certificate is genuine, and without comment. The reverse is clear and without fault.

So our attention only needs be focused in this case, on the face. :mrgreen:
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Greg Ioannou »

Ok, so I looked up the postmark, and it was indeed first used in 1895. So something is very fishy. What else is wrong with this guy?
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by traralgon3844 »

Don't you have to worry about cleaned specimens with these? :wink:
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by goof »

It is a fine specimen of a £5 with nice perfs too.
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

Just an update.

After 24 member votes, so far option 5 is leading - "has been heavily re-perforated"

Keep the votes coming in .. interesting poll so far. :mrgreen:
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Greg Ioannou »

goof wrote:It is a fine specimen of a £5 with nice perfs too.
With that clue, I think I see the M of SPECIMEN between the N and E of THREADNEEDLE.

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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

Image

Image

Image
Yes all is not what it seems. :mrgreen:

Totally fake cancel placed over an erased "SPECIMEN" which on these are quite inexpensive, compared to £15,000 cat for used!

So our majority guess here of major reperfing was totally wrong. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by mobbor »

Thanks Glen: an excellent piece of education.

As you know way outside my collecting area, but is it blued paper, or was it before it was tampered with?
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

Mike .. yes it will have been (and still is!) the blued paper I'd say, for sure.

The paper "bluing" is often very minor. Something the fakers of used copies forget or do not realise, when dipping white papers into a bowl of blue inked water! (Especially the GB 1883/4 High Values on "blued" paper.)

One of the regular members here “County” owns the world’s largest collection of GB £5 Orange stamps, proofs, essays and related items, and won a Large Gold Medal for it.

“County” is UK based Dr John Horsey, owner of County Auctions, who was inspired after his medal win to record his collection for posterity in a large 312 page hard cover book in dust jacket published by Stanley Gibbons London.

That book "The £5 Orange" was recently awarded a Large Gold medal at Stampex, the National Stamp Exhibition in London.

I was reading it last night, and was inspired to start this Poll based on his photo of the "Threadneedle Street" fake. A superb book it really is.

There is a 220 post thread on that iconic stamp here -

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=24683
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by europhil »

europhil wrote:With a little online sleuthing I found the answer -

9 - Something else major is wrong

To keep it interesting, I won't say what else is wrong.
How I found the answer -

I recall that Glen posted a link to John Horsey's exhibit a few days ago.

I looked back and found the link and began to see if I could find that
stamp in the exhibit. I had success, but not until I had looked at 73 of
the 80 pages - in the Forgeries section near the end of the exhibit.

By the way, it's a great exhibit. Even if you have no interest in this
stamp it's well worth giving it a look.
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

Well spotted Jay .. yes page 73 is what I was reading when I decided to start this poll -

https://www.stampauctions.co.uk/5pound/f73.jpg

I agree it is a wonderful collection to browse through .. SO much content!

https://www.stampauctions.co.uk/5orangedisplay.htm

Who'd imagine these were fiscal used?!

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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by JonEboy »

Global Administrator wrote: Image[/centre]

Yes all is not what it seems. :mrgreen:

Totally fake cancel placed over an erased "SPECIMEN" which on these are quite inexpensive, compared to £15,000 cat for used!
Excuse me for being dim here, but with the benefit of seeing the photo above it is immediately clear that something is wrong. So how the heck did this get a cert? Did they not have natural daylight back in 1985 :?: :lol:

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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Allanswood »

Glen hasn't shown the cert - for all we know it says "£5 Specimen Overprint is genuine".
It may not have been faked at the time.
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

No, it completely fooled the RPSL it seems.

They issued the cert as a no fault SG 133. The mind boggles for a £15,000 stamp, where mint SPECIMENS are cat a fraction of that, and always have been.

"SG 133 £5 Orange on blued paper, used is genuine" is what the RPS Cert says according to page 250 of the book.

Which also says -

"IF this one succeeded in getting a certificate as genuine it begs the question - are there undetectable forgeries? The simplest means to guard against these forgeries is outlined on page 284."
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Allanswood »

Had the committee skulled 5 bottles of Pims before checking it? :shock:

I'd imagine the Specimen overprint would have embossed through to the back of the stamp.
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

Even weirder many expert bodies charge a flat % of Cat value for those decreed genuine.

Implying of course much more time and care and study is given to such pieces. Maybe someone can look it up - but on £15,000 that would be steep.
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by JonEboy »

Current RPSL Rates are as follows;

Up to £1,400 Cat Value covers - £35
Large pieces -£40

for a opinion certified as genuine. All other opinions £35.

Between £1,400 and £14,000 - 2½%
Between £14,000 and £60,000 - £350 plus 1% on the excess over £14,000
Over £60,000 - £810

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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Madstars »

Awesome thread Glen.

Thanks for the lesson.
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by gavin-h »

Global Administrator wrote:Who'd imagine these were fiscal used?!

Image
<Timidly raises his hand>

For £50 in 1895, you could have mailed something VERY large from Glasgow to Australia. Heck, for £50 in 1895 you could have mailed GLASGOW to Australia, so on that basis, 99.99999% certain to be fiscal relating to a very large property transaction. :idea:
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Allanswood »

Or somebody with a bad stutter sent a telegram?
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

gavin-h wrote:
For £50 in 1895, you could have mailed something VERY large from Glasgow to Australia. Heck, for £50 in 1895 you could have mailed GLASGOW to Australia, so on that basis, 99.99999% certain to be fiscal relating to a very large property transaction. :idea:
Not so at all.

With Telegram costs over £1 a WORD to some destinations in this period, you might be surprised at what was urgent, and what was telegrammed for business communication etc, that was by nature lengthy.

Less than 50 words at over £1 a word is your £50 block in theory. (This post reply of mine here is about 100 words for example = a block of 20!)

No phones, faxes or emails in the 1890s. We often forget that. :idea:

Urgent legal matters etc or business arrangements to far flung corners etc needed to be done via Telegram

Image and text from Horsey's book -
Image
Postage stamps could always be used for Telegram payment of course.

However the book notes a large number of GLASGOW and EDINBURGH are dated 1894 and 1895 and it is speculated this may be from "liberated" receipts for payment of Whiskey Excise Duty
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by gavin-h »

Really? Never knew telegram costs were so high. :shock:

It must've been bl**dy important for such expense.

I think the following is MUCH more likely an explanation:
Global Administrator wrote:However the book notes a large number of GLASGOW and EDINBURGH are dated 1894 and 1895 and it is speculated this may be from "liberated" receipts for payment of Whiskey Excise Duty
... although NEVER let a Scot see you spelling Whisky with an "e". :wink:
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

gavin-h wrote:
It must've been bl**dy important for such expense.
A few of these kind of tips, and they'd pay off pretty nicely. :mrgreen:

Cecil Rhodes, Africa.

Have the inside word Boer War about to commence stop. Buy up all companies selling food and clothing and supply materials stop. And while you are at it, buy up anything that looks like it might have any Gold or Diamonds there stop. See potential here for a few million quick quid stop

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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by gavin-h »

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Being a Yorkshire Lad, I'd've saved a few quid and sent this:
Cecil Rhodes, Africa.

War!

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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

gavin-h wrote::lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Being a Yorkshire Lad, I'd've saved a few quid and sent this:
Cecil Rhodes, Africa.

War!

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You idiot - Rhodes might have then invaded the Belgium Congo. :idea:

And you'd now be snacking on Pommes Frites drowned in gooey brown sludge, and not bangers and mash. :mrgreen:
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by thecloudwatcher »

I chose Fake Cancel, mainly because the letters looked of the cancel looked very odd (the N of THREADNEEDLE especially).

I could also see the smudginess where the Specimen overprint had been, but didn't even consider that's what it might have been!
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

Yes I can't locate my book but my hunch is the cancel is one of those superb hand cut WOODEN "Madame Joseph" jobbies. :mrgreen:
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by county »

First of all, I must congratulate Glen on generating so much interest in this particular £5 Orange. It was very effective use of Polling.

Image

The stamp is described in more detail as an erased specimen in the forgeries section of both "The £5 Orange" book and my Large Gold display.

I will try to address some of the issues raised in the earlier posts to this board. Here is the certificate:

Image

It clearly states 'SG133 is genuine' without qualification.

Below is the reverse side in which there is very little trace of the original Specimen overprint, but there is no doubt that it is blued paper - as indeed most type 9 Specimens are.

Image

The cancel:

Three versions of this style of the Threadneedle Street registered oval have been used with the £5 Orange. They have code letters A, B and C. During research for the £5 Orange book, I trawled through the Date Stamp Impressions books at the British Postal Museum and Archive in London (BPMA).

I only found two of the A,B,C code letters for Threadneedle St, both struck well after 1883. As the code letter is unclear in the cancel on this particular stamp, it could be the one missing from the BPMA records, although it would be somewhat anachronistic.

The letters THREAD appear smaller than those in NEEDLE which is suspicious, but with at least one known missing strike in the Impression books, it could not be totally ruled out.

If it is forged, it is not a known Madame Joseph. If real, then it looks like fraudulent use - of which other examples are shown in the book.

There is a registered oval recorded for Threadneedle St which is dated well before 1883 (1871 from memory) but its style is very different.

In summary, the basic stamp is genuine on blued paper. The colour is fine, the perfs are fine, the watermark is correct, there are no creases, tears or repairs. It appears to be a very fine example of SG133 - so good that the RPS gave it a clean certificate.

The only problem is that the cancel is actually hiding an erased specimen.
John Horsey, County Philatelic Auctions, Basingstoke, RG23 7JZ, UK
https://www.stampauctions.co.uk" - Right Material - Right Price - Write now
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

Global Administrator wrote:
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I have to smile. Just before it was revealed the stamps had a fake cancel, these above were the votes.

AFTER that was announced, the votes magically started to lean heavily to that!

It is like betting with the bookies on the result of a football game or horse race - AFTER the result is known. :idea:
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Re: POLL - WHAT is wrong with this GB £5 Orange QV stamp?

Post by steevh »

I went for fake cancel just because I've never seen a 5 pound orange with the registered cancel on it.

All the re-perfs I've seen have got nice clean perfs where the dirty work has been done.

I had no idea it was a cleaned up specimen.

Of course, it also helped to scroll down further and see my suspicion was correct.
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