Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquidation

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by fromdownunder »

OK, assume that I am as dumb as a dead stick.

How can items, owned by somebody other than the company in liquidation and commissioned or consigned for want of a better term, to the Company for future Auction even remotely be considered as assets of the Company, and how can future sales of these items, go into Company assets, rather than the purchaser's money being returned, and the vendors material being returned.

I think I need to shout!

THESE WERE NOT COMPANY ASSETS. THEY WERE CONSIGNED ASSETS BY THE OWNERS OF THE MATERIAL, and neither the company nor the Liquidator should have any right to attach these items to the Company Asset Register. They did not own the Bloody things, they were holding them on behalf of vendors.

What happens to vendor assets that remained unsold from previous Auctions that were retained for future resale? This happens all the time. An unsold item might be held for two or three future Auctions on a Vendor instruction. Who gets the material, and who gets paid off?

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by The Pom »

Well put Norm.

I'm no expert in Aussie law, but I would think that all they "owned" was "the right to take a commission in the event of a successful sale".

They are no more than an agent.
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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by David Benson »

downunder,

I can't see anywhere where it states that vendors unsolds are included in the assets of the company. It is my understanding that they will be either returned to the vendors or that they will be transferred to another Auction House under the name of the original vendor, not the liquidator or the liquidated company. Any material on hand not yet listed will be considered the same.

The question whether the proceeds of the sold material from the last Auction go into the pool or considered differently is something that will be worked out by the liquidators. It appears that all material that was sold prior to the last sale will be considered part of the pool and the vendors will be paid only a few cents in the dollar if anything at all.

Where complications arise is whether vendors have contra'd purchases from the last sale against their sales or against future sales (and I know of one) will give the liquidators a headache and extra costs involved.

There is also the problem regarding any returns, if they occur and sold items from the last sale which have not yet been paid, all these factors add into the liquidators time which means money.

David B.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by ChrisGray »

An anecdotal example of business liquidation:

A wealthy client of mine runs a large airconditioning company. He had a large high rise development go bust at the 11th hour, and had all the materials in each unit waiting to install. Think central airconditioning units, ducting etc, sitting in more than one hundred apartments.

Luckily, he got wind of the pending liquidation, and sent every staff member he had (incl. secretaries and friends) to remove as much of their stock as possible from the building in the day before lockout. Everything they didn't have time to remove, was considered part of the liquidation and an asset of the developer, and they spent six months to get it back.

That sounds reasonable, until you realise he had to pay his suppliers after the 30 day accounts realised. 180 days later, he was paid for what was left, and had to cover that amount out of his own pocket.

Hopefully this won't be the same situation with Velvet.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

It seems that for stamp auctioneers in Oz and probably NZ there is no requirement for an escrow account for vendors' fund. Therefore the company owner/s can do what they wish with all sale proceeds.

They may hold back on paying Peter to pay Paul (but not this Paul , LOL) and juggle their payments.

There is something wrong with the law.

Vendors may find they are taking a gamble if they choose the wrong person to trust...

If I nicked something from a shop or someone's property, it is theft. But not necessarily so in the world of white-collar offending with all its legally framed grey areas and loopholes.

The ducking and dodging that went on with our finance firm collapses in NZ several years ago is an example.

I have always found business journalism and news fascinating.

It is a shame events like VC cast a pall over the trade.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by numisphil »

I bid by phone at the auction. Today I received all auction lots I successfully bid on. Invoice was enclosed in carton. I assume all other successful phone/postal bidders will get their lots in due course.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by ebay_dealer »

Very sad to hear about the demise of V.C in this way.

I have bought from them for many years and found them absolutely first class and trustworthy. Clearly things appear to have gone very wrong over the last 18 months or so. Best wishes to all the anxious vendors.

So the number of auction houses continues to shrink. Let's hope the Philatelic Associations get a bit of a lift
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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Lakatoi 4 »

numisphil wrote:I bid by phone at the auction. Today I received all auction lots I successfully bid on. Invoice was enclosed in carton. I assume all other successful phone/postal bidders will get their lots in due course.
Who were you asked to send the payment to :?:
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Re: Delayed Payment From Major Sydney Auction House

Post by Harri »

RodT wrote:Nice to see Harri finally got his monies.

Pity it took a big jolt from Stampboards to get Velvet collectables to cough up.

The poor 'privacy' excuse from Danny doesn't wash.

Looks like he needs a PR refresher course.
This was not the result I was looking for, but I feel justified in raising concerns early on, even copping some flak. The list of unsecured creditors I received from Bucks reads like a who's who, of stamp collecting, not at all good for the philatelics.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by JohnnyAppleseed »

Harri wrote:Hi, not sure where to post this, but maybe someone can help me out.

Over 12 months ago I consigned a large specialized stamp collection to a major Sydney stamp auction house, all lots were sold, now the dealer is stalling with payment of over $5000.

They have made a part payment an lots of promises to pay the rest, it's now got to the stage where I may have to get a legal opinion.

Advice welcome, can I name the dealer.?
It would be in your own interests I think to seek legal advice, as I had the same problem with a well known stamp dealer who I sold an estate to who paid me in dribs and drabs and had all the excuses under the sun as to why I wasn't paid in full.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Allanswood »

Have you even read this thread? :roll:
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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

I await the outcome of today's creditors' meeting at which a director (presumably DJ) would issue a statement. I did provide a proxy as i am in NZ.

I have been emailed by people with information and evidence that they have sent on to the liquidator and one is a harrowing read. Let alone my own evidence.

Matters have to be proven legally of course.

By the way I looked at a dealer site in NZ where it is stated all vendor funds are held in a separate trust account.

That does not appear to be the case with VC ( I stand to be corrected)... hence we just had a pool of non-ring fenced vendor funds ...

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by mikeg »

Those of you who consigned material - were you charged an insurance fee or security fee :?:

In UK auctions this is normally 1% added to your seller commission.

Check your 'Property Receipt' or Consignment form which you signed at time of handing over the lots.

If you are not paid or lots returned, make a claim thru their insurance.

Of course, this is UK practice - but it is worth checking into since the liquidators will not tell you about it :shock:

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by nota bene »

mikeg wrote:Those of you who consigned material - were you charged an insurance fee or security fee :?:

In UK auctions this is normally 1% added to your seller commission.

Check your 'Property Receipt' or Consignment form which you signed at time of handing over the lots.

If you are not paid or lots returned, make a claim thru their insurance.

Of course, this is UK practice - but it is worth checking into since the liquidators will not tell you about it :shock:
My understanding is that this is mostly a UK thing. Most international auction houses do not take out a separate insurance for each consignment - but rather have insurance that covers all consignments and they do not charge a separate fee for this, but rather it is included in the overall commissions.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

The Velvet receipts state thus:

item 8. VCG shall, unless otherwise instructed in writing by the vendor, insure the property while in its possession:


There is bound to be an out somewhere in Oz and probably NZ. the material of course has been sold in many cases up a year or more ago. It is not in their possession any more. Insurer would likely claim sale was made in good faith not our issue any more.

I have no idea who the insurer is and will ask the liquidator about it....why do they not tell people?

item 7: VCG accepts no liability for the loss or damage to the property whether due to its negligence (including that of its servants, agents or invitees) atmospheric change, fire burglary of other cause whatsoever.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Lakatoi 4 »

Paul,

Although it may have been sold, if it's still on their premises or some place they have control over, then you would still think it's legally in their possession, so should be covered by insurance.

I haven't looked at their conditions of sale but there should be something in them stating when title passes to the buyer.
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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

Since the auction sold lots have been sent out with invoices quick as on the Monday before the winding up announcement on the Tuesday. The unsold lots are secure and being returned by us picking them up or sent to another auction house ....of our choice. The careful wording of the insurance paragraphs does not cover ....any you know what _....later down the line

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by nota bene »

Paul Peters wrote:item 7: VCG accepts no liability for the loss or damage to the property whether due to its negligence (including that of its servants, agents or invitees) atmospheric change, fire burglary of other cause whatsoever.
Just because they write something in the auction conditions doesn't mean it is legal.

There are many instances where auction conditions in Europe (and I'm sure elsewhere - but I have little knowledge of the relevant consumer laws) are in violation of the current consumer laws, in which case the law overrules whatever the auction conditions state.

So I think item 7 is meant to read in the sense that because item 8 insures the goods, VCG assumes no additional responsibility.

However, because it is VCG that has the insurance the legal claim from the consignee will always be with VCG regardless of item 7. There is no legal contract between the consignee and the insurance company - thus any claim from the consignee would have to be against VCG.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by David Benson »

nota bene,

re.
thus any claim from the consignee would have to be against VCG.
Claim for what, I am sure that in the event of the liquidation of the company would not be a recognisable claim,

David B.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by nota bene »

David Benson wrote:nota bene,

re.
thus any claim from the consignee would have to be against VCG.
Claim for what, I am sure that in the event of the liquidation of the company would not be a recognisable claim,

David B.
David,

Of course, in the current situation any claim against VCG is unlikely to be of any use. My comment was rather meant on the consignor conditions that Paul quoted.

However, if there was an insurance issue [say consignee's collection that was unsold is destroyed by water damage], the consignee would always have to make the complaint to VCG [which would then be handled by the liquidator?] whom then would have to trigger their insurance. There is little to suggest that point 7 in their consignor conditions would be legally enforcable, i.e. VCG would be liable against a private consignee regardless of whether their insurance pays them.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Robert1 »

Following the recent comments about Australian Stamp Auctions houses and some concerns about using them, I wanted to highlight Ace Stamp Auctions here in Perth.

I must firstly disclaim that I am a Licensed Auctioneer in the State of Western Australia and have called Auctions for Ace Stamp Auctions.

That aside, I am also a collector & I have long been associated as both a buyer and more recently a vendor and I can confirm they have always paid out strictly within 3 weeks of the auction whether or not buyers have paid for their lots!!

Therefore the owner, Ian Boulton, must be carrying the debt whilst waiting for overseas and the slower payers to pay! A refreshing change to that mentioned in these recent posts.

His last auction, I understand, was the largest he has had with over 100 different vendors, an 80% sale rate and sales grossing $350,000. This is from a reasonably modest auction house that appears to deliver excellent service whilst carefully watching overheads.

So don’t despair, there is an alternative though you will need to send your lots to the West!! Having said that I understand from other Stampboards members that several of his vendors are now firm regulars from Sydney and Melbourne.

There was also mention of some auction firms not posting prices realised but if you need proof his complete sales archive can be found at http://acestampauctions.com/auctions.php complete with images.

I sincerely hope those that have been affected by the recent collapse are recompensed but don’t let this tar all auction houses or the service they provide.
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Re: Delayed Payment From Major Sydney Auction House

Post by Robert1 »

BigSaint wrote:States have Laws on how Solicitors & Real Estate Agents deal with their customers' monies with the use of a Trust Account.

There are 1000s of Solicitors & Real Estate Agents in each State & it sounds a good idea to treat Stamp Auctioneers in the same way.

However there are a handful of Stamp Auctioneers in each State & it would be difficult to convince a Government to introduce Legislation to regulate such a small amount of people.

Brad :)
Speaking first hand here, as a Licensed Real Estate Agent and having the requirement to have Statutory Trust Accounts and annual audits of those accounts and monies, it has always surprised me that Auction Houses and other people or organisations that hold on to other peoples monies are not required to hold them in some form of Statutory Trust Account.

In many cases, we are not talking about small sums of money here and many of them on par with what my orgnisation would hold on a monthly or annual basis from time to time as well.

At the very least, the introduction of some form of insurance might be prudent, again much like real estate consumers are covered by the various fidelity guarantees in each State and Territory, funded by agent licensing fees and the interest earned off funds in trust.

While I am never a fan of over regulation and government intervention, when it comes to other peoples money, these rules are in place for a very good reason.
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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by ebay_dealer »

Paul Peters wrote:Since the auction sold lots have been sent out with invoices quick as on the Monday before the winding up announcement on the Tuesday. The unsold lots are secure and being returned by us picking them up or sent to another auction house ....of our choice. The careful wording of the insurance paragraphs does not cover ....any you know what _....later down the line
Given that they have gone into liquidation, with vendors not being paid, is there any guarantee that insurance premiums have been paid. There may not be any insurance.
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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Jack56 »

Hi all

I haven’t read every post but I am your local Insolvency Practitioner as well as long time Stampboards member.

Forget insolvent trading unless the amount involved is large and you have deep pockets and the director(s) have money to pay. If you need a lawyer then you are in trouble.

Don’t going chasing rabbits down holes and throw good money after bad.

If you consigned stock and it was unsold – it belongs to you, and not the auction house. I haven’t read the auction house terms and conditions but would be surprised if that was not the case.

One telling observation about the whole saga was the timing between the auction and liquidation, and the first meeting between the director and the eventual liquidator.

Money from invoiced but unpaid goods once received should go to the consignee with the auction house now in liquidation taking its commission. The goods never belonged to the auction house and the company now in liquidation can’t profit from such an arrangement.

I’d make my case to the liquidator if I were the consignee and if he or she quibbled would hang my hat on the timing issue referred above. Meet advisor today, auction tomorrow, and go into liquidation the day after tells me the Liquidator was fully cognizant with events and leaves the liquidator little wiggle room.

Also puts the liquidator on notice that when the money arrives it doesn’t belong to him or her.

(Clear up one misconception. This isn’t an official liquidation but a voluntary one. Official is forced through the courts with a liquidator not of the company’s choosing. In a voluntary liquidation the directors choose their own, and creditors (at a meeting) given the opportunity of finding a replacement if not satisfied)

The terms and conditions between auctioneer and consignees are important and legally binding. They set the contractual framework for the arrangement between consignee and consignor.

I haven’t seen any paperwork re this liquidation, and don’t want to, but what assets would an auction house own? Answer not many.

A bit of a rambling answer but it may be of some assistance to members.

This isn’t professional advice but informed observation.

Regards to all

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

The liquidator seems to be saying the money from the March 13 sale the day before the windup will go into the pool but may rank higher (for a payout of zero?). wording distances from the decision to windup..I will send you the email I got as i queried the sequence of meetings as requiring an explanation.

There is more surrounding the whole saga as can be said on here as one would expect...

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Greg Ioannou »

I guess I can stop pestering them to repair their messed-up website.

Greg

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Lakatoi 4 »

As Robert1 pointed out in his post above, Ace Auctions in Perth pay vendors promptly in 3 weeks plus have vendor commissions of only 15%.

Buyer commissions are only 12.5% plus GST.

No other auction house worldwide can match that combination.
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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by doc »

Jack56 wrote:
This isn’t an official liquidation but a voluntary one. Official is forced through the courts with a liquidator not of the company’s choosing. In a voluntary liquidation the directors choose their own, and creditors (at a meeting) given the opportunity of finding a replacement if not satisfied
Sounds like you being able to nominate your brother to be the Judge at your divorce or traffic matter hearing?

Hopefully at the creditors meeting this week, these liquidators are kicked out if they had meetings BEFORE the auction, and allowed it to take place, when it seems pretty obvious the company was long insolvent, and exposing a whole raft of new suckers to kiss the value of their stamps goodbye forever most likely.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Global Administrator »

Lakatoi 4 wrote:
Ace Auctions in Perth pay vendors promptly in 3 weeks plus have vendor commissions of only 15%.

Buyer commissions are only 12.5% plus GST.

No other auction house worldwide can match that combination.
Really? You do need to get out more Tony. "No auction house worldwide"??? :)

I can't generalise comment on payment schedules for them all, but almost every Auction in the USA for starters has lower fees, as there is no GST there.

They indeed often offer NEGATIVE vendor fees for decent consignments. i.e. Vendor gets a % of the hammer price in his hand.

PHILAS in your own city Sydney are 14% vendor on medium value consignments with no GST, and just 10% buyer, with no GST.

I bought a pile of Aerophilately stuff from ACE late 2015 where buyer fee was 15% plus GST = 16.5% (not 12.5%) plus a few % extra to use a credit card, plus goods mailed in a plastic satchel.

And the descriptions were often appalling. Many of the lots had never been looked at by auction, or ever taken off album page from owner/vendor, and were STUFFED, despite the glowing descriptions mentioning none of the obvious condition issues I saw upon arrival.

Many $100s single pieces we are talking about - $9000+ invoice. One a 4 figure piece. And many were returned, wasting a ton of time and energy and raised blood pressure. And got some free written unqualified psychiatric advise from one of the owners as a bonus. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

What the commission % in last sale was I have no idea, as catalogue went unopened into my bin upon arrival, if indeed I got one. Life is too short. :idea:

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

I have had no report from the meeting. They seem to make out the March

7 meeting was between HIM and the firm B. Where he got advice on what to do IF he felt the firm was insolvent.
Then he held the March 13 sale.
Then on March 14 decided whoops I am insolvent.
Then meet the liquidator a separate firm from B.

The creditors' report said the matter was referred to WilliamBuck by Bentleys. Presumably when VC decided it WAS insolvent...just after the March 13 auction??? The company's figures as stated by VC in the report suggest a million dollar gap before the auction on the face of it, deducting the proceeds of the March 13 sale from the figures submitted both on the asset and creditor side.
Last edited by Paul Peters on 26 Mar 2016 14:50, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Jack56 »

It is normal to meet directors and provide advice, including whether or not to put the company into liquidation.

What is also apparent is that the intended liquidator(s) knew that an auction was about to take place.

Remember that what was being auctioned didn’t belong to the company.

The people with sold lots at the last auction, the one held a day or so prior to liquidation should in theory receive their money.

I would imagine with an auction lined up, and everything in place, why cancel provided they play by the rules. The upside for the company is the commissions, BUT I wouldn’t think the sales proceeds.

Unsold consigned items should be returned.

You need to wait and see if the liquidator(s) honour the sellers in that final auction, and if not, the aggrieved consignees should band together and lodge a complaint with ASIC and or consumer affairs.

The people that will most probably miss out, and I haven’t seen any figures nor do I want to, will be the old creditors, those that had sold lots sometime back but haven’t received their money.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by chrisb »

Lakati 4 wrote: Buyer commissions are only 12.5% plus GST.

No other auction house worldwide can match that combination.
I think that the issue is "what happens to the proceeds before they are paid out?" If not paid into a trust account on receipt the seller is always at risk. This is a general point regarding auction proceeds and of course not a dig at the Auction House that was mentioned.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Lakatoi 4 »

Global Administrator wrote:
Lakatoi 4 wrote:
Ace Auctions in Perth pay vendors promptly in 3 weeks plus have vendor commissions of only 15%.

Buyer commissions are only 12.5% plus GST.

No other auction house worldwide can match that combination.
Really? You do need to get out more Tony. "No auction house worldwide"??? :)

I can't generalise comment on payment schedules for them all, but almost every Auction in the USA for starters has lower fees, as there is no GST there.

They indeed often offer NEGATIVE vendor fees for decent consignments. i.e. Vendor gets a % of the hammer price in his hand.

PHILAS in your own city Sydney are 14% vendor on medium value consignments with no GST, and just 10% buyer, with no GST.

I bought a pile of Aerophilately stuff from ACE late 2015 where buyer fee was 15% plus GST = 16.5% (not 12.5%) plus a few % extra to use a credit card, plus goods mailed in a plastic satchel.

And the descriptions were often appalling. Many of the lots had never been looked at by auction, or ever taken off album page from owner/vendor, and were STUFFED, despite the glowing descriptions mentioning none of the obvious condition issues I saw upon arrival.

Many $100s single pieces we are talking about - $9000+ invoice. One a 4 figure piece. And many were returned, wasting a ton of time and energy and raised blood pressure. And got some free written unqualified psychiatric advise from one of the owners as a bonus. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

What the commission % in last sale was I have no idea, as catalogue went unopened into my bin upon arrival, if indeed I got one. Life is too short. :idea:
Glen, no need for me "to get out more". If you read the full wording of my last sentence it was:

No other auction house worldwide can match that combination

I.e. Vendor's and buyer's fees plus time for payment.

Ace Auctions are 12.5% now, check their website.

And yes, Philas charge buyers 10% commission but only members of stamp clubs or philatelic society's (i.e. collector's) should have the GST waived.

Now back to the topic.
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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Global Administrator »

Lakatoi 4 wrote:
And yes, PHILAS charge buyers 10% commission but only members of stamp clubs or philatelic society's (i.e. collector's) should have the GST waived.
Well you better let PHILAS know of their bad error, as they do not charge GST to anyone on the 10% Buyer Fee. And have not for 7 years. And say so clearly on their website. Why on earth would a member of a stamp club be treated differently re GST than a non member? If is a FEDERAL Tax.

So despite that, their PHILAS fees are still way lower than ACE so "no-one else in the world is this low" is just nonsense! They are in your own state and you buy there.

And you and I have no firm data on how fast ANY Auction anywhere pays anyone, so that is also a meaningless point.

And any savvy vendor of decent material value of course negotiates an up front cash advance payment from the auction, generally 50% of the estimates, so it is irrelevant, as they get their dough months ahead, and earn interest on it.

Glen
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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Ace Auctions »

Thanks for the positive comments about Ace from both Robert 1 and Lakatoi 4. Whilst is a sorry state of affairs and a thread that makes disappointing reading, I appreciate the complimentary comments until Glen adds his usual positivity to the conversation!

Whilst dissing Ace after his last transaction, he fails to mention his previous positive experiences with Ace or his lateness to pay, which I have always tolerated until this last instance when it was well overdue. As was pointed out by Rob, I personally carry this debt to ensure vendors are paid out in the 3 week time period promised.

The 15% Buyers Premium applied only to the specialised one-off Airmail sale I conducted last year. We work hard to keep the overheads down to maintain the current 12.5%. As I have seen on numerous previous occasions, I will not waste valuable hours debating with Glen in this forum, as others have done, except to quote Glen in an earlier remark in this thread “that there are 2 sides to every story” and he know this!

In closing thanks to the 287 successful postal bidders from which we have had only 3 returns. PS Glen, I didn’t send you a catalogue to save both my money and your arm muscles from the need to toss in a bin :lol:

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Lakatoi 4 »

Glen, yes I do buy at Philas so I'll quote from their Conditions of Sale. Clause 10 states "A Buyers Premium of 10% will be added to all invoices. Members are not liable for the Goods and Services Tax".

For that reason you have to state your Club or Philatelic Society name on their viewing forms and when you fill in the bidding form at their auctions.

Whether or not they charge the GST to dealer's or to anyone else is their decision.
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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Global Administrator »

Lakatoi 4 wrote:Glen, yes I do buy at Philas so I'll quote from their Conditions of Sale. Clause 10 states "A Buyers Premium of 10% will be added to all invoices. Members are not liable for the Goods and Services Tax".
So you pay PHILAS only 10% fee total on hammer price (and with Voodoo Math oddly maintain that 10% is higher than the 14% or whatever at ACE) and the PHILAS website makes it very clear there is no GST to any buyer, and you are still alleging that is wrong?

NO-ONE pays it extra I'd suggest - for the THIRD time.
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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by mcgooley »

Before anyone says anything else about any other auction house...

could I remind people that this thread is about Velvet Collectables?
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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by BigSaint »

Jack56 wrote:Hi all

I haven’t read every post but I am your local Insolvency Practitioner as well as long time Stampboards member.
Jack56

Can you please confirm that the PPSR does not apply here :?:

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Jack56 »

Not sure about the question but the PPSR applies in all cases, provided you have your goods registered.

I can't see how or why you would do so if you were simply consigning your goods to an auction house. That is, they belong to you, and it would be best to revisit the terms and conditions under which the goods were originally consigned to Velvet.

If the auction house had any of my goods, i.e. they were unsold, I'd simply ask for them back.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by David Smitham »

Sorry Brad, but what is a PPSR?

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Allanswood »

Australian Personal Properties Security Register.
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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

The unsold goods are being returned or to be collected by a dealer of the vendors' choice....Status has offered to take them..

Re: Sold lots....well the proceeds are owned by the company it seems - no trust account- and all gone...except for enough to pay liquidation process and various odds and ends.


Fortunate that the 170,000 approx from the March 13 sale lifts the assets to about 225,000. (versus stated debt to creditors of 1.2m plus plus).

Vendors will not get all the proceeds from the March sale, because it just so happened to be held a day before a meeting was held to wind up the company effective from the next day. So the money is pooled.

The liquidators are looking into whether or not those vendors should have priority over past creditors for a share of any money left or located. But definitely not paying the full net proceeds of the March sale to vendors apparently.
Do that and there's only about 50k in cash and kind

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by BigSaint »

Jack56

It was my understanding that in the case of a company in liquidation that any goods on the premises of the company were the property of the company in liquidation unless the owner of the goods had those goods registered with the PPSR.

Could you please elaborate on the difference between bailment, hire, lease & consignment when the owner of the goods has not registered the goods that are on the company in liquidation's premises.

Mind you I would hate to have to register a stamp collection as I would not be sure whether you register stamps or covers individually, albums or boxes.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Jack56 »

The PPSR is used by suppliers that supply goods on credit. It replaced the Retention of Title clause used on invoices.

so with a PPSR, if the goods are in the company's possession when it goes into liquidation, they still belong to you, and you can collect same.

That isn't the case here, goods were consigned, i.e. the goods never belonged to the company, although title will pass after certain events - have to look at the auction house's terms and conditions to see when that happens.

Obviously a buyer at auction wants his or her goods with clear title that must occur at some stage after the goods are paid for.

In this particular liquidation, you can't, or shouldn't have a director knowingly selling goods that didn't belong to the company the day before it goes into liquidation.

The commissions would belong to the company but not the proceeds of that last sale.

The decision to proceed with the auction was made by the director and one would think with the knowledge of the liquidator to be. Possible offences here, but don't think offences, think I want my money.

To early to complain about the conduct of the director or liquidator until you know what is going to happen.

If the proceeds weren't remitted to me, I'd complain to ASIC (Australian Securities Investment Commission) and Consumer Affairs, and even the professional body governing liquidators - provided the liquidator is a member.

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by mcgooley »

As a matter of interest, can anyone post images of the last auction catalogue up here for future reference? And, if possible, a list of the prices realized.
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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

if you type in velvet collectables and go their auction sites and see the catalogue online it is still there and you can access prices realised.

the sale had about 500 fewer lots than normal for Sydney and only about 60pc
sold hence abt 170k gross.

http://www.stamp-auction.com.au/files/catalogues/auction38text.pdf


http://www.stamp-auction.com.au/files/pricesreal38.pdf


http://www.stamp-auction.com.au/files/unsolds38.pdf

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

In reply to Jack

The liquidator's reply stated there was a meeting between Bentleys and DJ on March 7 to discuss options IF DJ at some stage felt the company
was insolvent.

Then an auction was held ''DJ's decision.'' - Sunday
Then on the Monday a decision was taken to wind up the company on the Tuesday.

The liquidator WilliamBuck states they were appointed on referral from Bentleys.

I infer from this that WB knew nothing about it till they were appointed.

And we do not know what JD told Bentleys. In any case it did not cause the auction not to proceed.

As you said we have to see what emerges...but the liquidator's message to me was about whether or not sellers at the auction should rank ahead of other creditors , not that they would or could get all their sales money minus commission, VAT etc.

And is all yet to be determined..

Anyone out there attend the creditors' meeting on Thursday?

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by David Benson »

This may be interest,

http://www.stamp-auction.com.au/company/our_team.html

I don't know when it was written,

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Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Global Administrator »

David Benson wrote:
I don't know when it was written,
As it is talking about working on a "new website" .. a long time back I'd guess! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That was a large part of Velvet's failure . . . they were about 10 years out of the loop, re web based auctions.

= = = =

THE TEAM

DANNY JURD

Director/Auctioneer

Danny Jurd's history in the stamp trade dates back to 1981 when¸ as a 16 year old, he was employed as a trainee for the legendary firm of Harmer's of Sydney under the tutelage of Barbara Brennan, Derek Yardley, Trevor Dunshea, and also Barry Cooper.

Working on parts of such famous collections as McNess, Friedman and the "Holding" collections to name a few, along with the pressure of putting together 8 auctions per year, provided strong foundations to his current philatelic knowledge and experience.

In late 1983, following the announcement of Harmers intended closure of their Sydney Office, Barry Cooper purchased Status Stamps from then owner Hugh Freeman and Danny moved across to work as a Valuer and trainee Auctioneer at Status' Elizabeth street premises and eventually at their Mountain St Ultimo premises until 1989 where again the regimen and deadlines of up to 10 sales a year had to be met.

Following shortly after the sale of Status Stamps by Barry Cooper in 1989, Danny worked in the Philatelic Retail Sector for Gabriele's Philatelic Service (1989 to 1993), Status Retail (1994 to 1996) where philately and the then surging Phone Card Market occupied much of his time, then for International Numismatics (1996/97) which provided invaluable numismatic experience to this growing area of Velvet Collectables Group Auctions.

In late 1997 Danny commenced employment with Stanley Gibbons Australia in the Sydney Office in Clarence St as a Valuer and Auctioneer, assuming State Management for the New South Wales, ACT and Queensland markets in 2001, continuing this role under the brand change to Mowbrays Australia in 2008, until his purchase of the business in 2010.

Since the second half of 2010 Velvet Collectables has operated out of their two offices in Surry Hills and North Melbourne, and continue to put together 4 Major Public Auctions of Stamps, Covers, Postal History, Cigarette Cards, Coins, Banknotes, Militaria etc., and 4 Postal Bid Sales of Stamps, 2 Public Auctions of Collectables, such as Die-Cast Model Cars, Model Trains, Star Wars Toys, Movie Posters, Comics, and other ephemera.

Danny has also appeared in the Press writing on stamps and, in some cases, phonecards and has been a regular contributor to Stamp News, Australasian Stamps Monthly and The Phonecard Collector- all monthly publications, plus for over 10 years, he was the weekly contributor to The Sunday Telegraph Stamp Column.

Danny Jurd has also served on volunteer organizations within the stamp trade – namely as a delegate to (from 1992) and then President (1995 to 2003) of the New South Wales Stamp Council (now Philatelic Development Council) which is affiliated to the Australian Philatelic Federation.

The broad brief of the NSWPC is to promote philately in NSW by way of Exhibitions, Youth Promotion and general support to Stamp Clubs and interested parties. After The Stamp Council merged with The New South Wales Philatelic Association, Danny was appointed via the Chairmanship of PDC as a Vice-President of Philas.

During this time Danny Jurd was an active member of the Sydney 1995 National Philatelic Exhibition Organizing Committee as Publicity Officer, and also as Publicity Office for the FIP International Exhibition for the Sydney Olympics in 2000 Olymphilex. Danny Jurd is, of course, a member of APTA and SCDAA where he holds the position of Booklet Manager.

IVAN KNOX

Senior Valuer

Ivan entered the stamp trade in September 1974 when he commenced working for P.J. Downie's in Elizabeth Street Melbourne.

When Stanley Gibbons Australia was bought by Sir Ron Brierley, Ivan joined the company in November 1991, becoming Victorian State Manager in 1998 until he stepped down in April 2006 to a less demanding position as Office manager then, and under the Mowbrays Australia banner, to 2010 when he reduced his work load and went part time for the current owners Velvet Collectables Group.


MELISSA SMITH

Accounts Manager

After graduation, Melissa worked for State Bank of Victoria (before it merged with Commonwealth), Yellow Pages (before it became Sensis), Shire of Sherbrooke and various temporary office jobs before answering a three line secretary wanted ad for Stanley Gibbons in November 1991.

Hired by then General Manager Hugh Freeman, Melissa has worked in some way on every auction held since Auction No 3 - February 1992. She has implemented and worked with the Auction programme from the beginnings of its use through Windows 95, XP, Vista and Windows 7.

She has gone from doing the accounts with a pen and in a ledger and writing cheques on a typewriter to using MYOB, writing cheques on the computer and doing deposits on the internet and has survived the arrival of the GST.

In the early 2000's Melissa developed this website with the programmer and has been working on the new upgrade. She has learnt how to use many new computer programmes over the years, mastered most of them (still battling with Photoshop!) and doesn't know how she functioned without Google.

In the 20 plus years of her employment, Melissa has worked with three owners, two General Managers and several State Managers under three different company names on over 100 auctions and looks forward to seeing what the next 100 auctions bring....


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