POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK worth?

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POLL: YOU guess what is this early WA cover to UK worth?

1. $A100
3
4%
2. $A250
11
16%
3. $A500
9
13%
4. $A1,000
6
9%
5. $A2,500
4
6%
6. $A5,000
7
10%
7. $A10,000
2
3%
8. $A25,000
9
13%
9. $A50,000
7
10%
10. $100,000
6
9%
11, $A250,000
2
3%
12. $A500,000
0
No votes
13 $A1,000,000
1
1%
14. $A5,000,000
1
1%
15. $A10,000,000
1
1%
16. $A100,000,000
0
No votes
17. Higher
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 69

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POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK worth?

Post by Global Administrator »

Image

Valuing old pre-stamp covers is a tricky art. And I am never good at it, to the delight of many past clients. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Let's test YOUR skill on this one from WA. What would YOU price it at?

1830 letter, from an early WA settler of no real note (then or later!) to his Uncle, also of no real note, then or later! Chatty family letter about his land and his view etc.

Small faults, and nothing unusual in the postal markings of Mauritius, and via India and UK on reverse. Manuscript "1/4d" on face or 16d, again normal rate.

So what do YOU think you'd ask if you owned it?

To recap. Nothing special or unusual re sender or recipient, or routing or rate, or contents or markings etc. Just an 1830 pre-stamp cover.

If it had a 4d Swan on it, that gives us a SG catalogue base figure to work on of the used stamp, but earlier letters do not have even that luxury. The only guide we have here, is the owner's note that £20 was paid to a dealer for this item, decades back.

Welcome to my daily real-world. Something sits on your desk, and a fair price needs to be set - fair to both seller AND buyer.

So play the dealer, imagine this is sitting on YOUR desk, and make your guess in the poll above, and add your thoughts, and see where we are in a few days with votes! :mrgreen:

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Re: POLL: What is this early WA cover to UK worth?

Post by vikingeck »

My thinking

Similar period GB letters fetch £10-£20 but then they are common.

Similar period 1850s SAMOA ( which I collect) are in the £300-£400 range .That is smaller than WA and should be scarcer but then probably WA has a wider collector base than Samoa which might bump the price.

I'd go between my two ranges and suggest £150-200 which might suggest a price of $400 . It is early for WA.

I'll start it at $500
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Re: POLL: What is this early WA cover to UK worth?

Post by goof »

I have a couple of thousand prestamp wrappers and entires and valuation is always tricky.

I have picked up some relatively scarce items for very little and others which I thought would be easy to acquire have made quite a few hundred pounds.

Its all down to the markings, the sender, the recipient, and the size of the town or area from which it was sent.

Also the demand from collectors is a major factor, so whilst as Alex says Samoa is smaller the number of collectors are smaller so I would suggest this may fetch a fair bit more.

In the case of WA this only really came into being as a colony in the late 1820s so probably not a lot of mail from this area in these times either.

I've gone for a higher amount (A$5000) in view of this.

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Re: POLL:What is this early Western Australia cover to UK wo

Post by dave222 »

I think we'd have heard about it on here already if it reached a quarter-million or more:)

I'm waiting for a double-bluff on one of these kinds of posts and suspect this may be the one where it is worth $10.

However, I'm going to go with the highest amount below the quarter-million dollars - $A100,000 based on the fact that it's always much higher than you think and that it is an early letter from the colony, so probably not too many around (as Mick "Goof" said)
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Mitgar62 »

As this is only a few years after the initial settlement of WA, I'll stick my neck out and guess this is an earliest of some sort or other, so I'll say $A10K.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

Global Administrator wrote: Small faults, and nothing unusual in the postal markings of Mauritius, and via India and UK on reverse.
Can we have the scan of the Indian postmark?

Some of the pre-1837 Indian transit postmarks are extremely rare.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by tooler »

I'll go with $2500. being it is WA 1830.
I buy too much, can't sell enough - but the information here is priceless.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by dave222 »

Joy Daschaudhuri wrote:
Global Administrator wrote: Small faults, and nothing unusual in the postal markings of Mauritius, and via India and UK on reverse.
Can we have the scan of the Indian postmark?

Some of the pre-1837 Indian transit postmarks are extremely rare.
Global Administrator wrote:nothing unusual in the postal markings of Mauritius, and via India and UK on reverse.
So, I guess that means it isn't an extremely rare transit postmark :)
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

Verdict has already been given.
Then no scan is required.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by BigSaint »

As it is addressed to Epsom, Surrey, the home of the English Derby, I would pay up to $250. I note that Woodcote House is now a boarding school. :)
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by David Benson »

The markings are of little importance, what is important is that it is most probably the earliest postal item from the Swan River colony which later became Western Australia and is of great historical interest.

The price would depend the budgets of a couple of museums if they decide they would like to acquire it.

My guess would be $100,000,

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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by dukeprince »

I am assumming the date is US system of month first so this was posted within 8 months of settlement of WA.

Research tells me there were aprox 1,500 people of european descent in WA in 1832 so a guess may be less than 1,000 at that time.

I dont know the value but feel you would be hard pressed to find an earlier letter , but the letter needs scans of the whole thing so as to glean every hint of what it holds, it seems to have no WA markings from the scan presented.

I would be hard pressed to value anything if shown an image of only the front of it.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by fossick »

I vote for somewhere between 100,000 & 250,000.

It is a very important historical document and probably one of the few letters from the early settlement of Western Australia.

There is a letter from Adam Elmslie of Peel Settlement in WA dated 1830 recorded as being in the Mitchell Library in Sydney.

If this is another one its historical significance cannot be underestimated.

Elmslie moved from WA to Tasmania before returning to the UK. He died in Weston Super Mare at 91 years of age.

Option 2: Someone pinched the one from the Library.

An interesting item to research, I enjoyed it..

Thankyou

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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Global Administrator »

Joy Daschaudhuri wrote: Can we have the scan of the Indian postmark?
Actually the rear only has the common framed "INDIA LETTER/FALMOUTH", and a London arrival c.d.s. so as I said, nothing unusual in the postal markings.
dukeprince wrote:the letter needs scans of the whole thing so as to glean every hint of what it holds, it seems to have no WA markings from the scan presented.

I would be hard pressed to value anything if shown an image of only the front of it.
I repeat, all you need to know to determine the value, is in post #1.

You'd go broke as a dealer in a week if you'd be "hard pressed" to value something from the front. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I can give you watermark and SG number of EVERY Kangaroos from a facial scan, mint or used, with 99% accuracy. It is simply experience.

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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by dukeprince »

fossick wrote:I vote for somewhere between 100,000 & 250,000.

It is a very important historical document and probably one of the few letters from the early settlement of Western Australia.

There is a letter from Adam Elmslie of Peel Settlement in WA dated 1830 recorded as being in the Mitchell Library in Sydney.

If this is another one its historical significance cannot be underestimated.

Elmslie moved from WA to Tasmania before returning to the UK. He died in Weston Super Mare at 91 years of age.

Option 2: Someone pinched the one from the Library.

An interesting item to research, I enjoyed it..

Thankyou

John G
Maybe it is the Library Letter , or he wrote more than one letter in 1830?, the Peel Settlement was a disaster.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Global Administrator »

Global Administrator wrote: The only guide we have here, is the owner's note that £20 was paid to a dealer for this item decades back.
Folks forget vague theories of some library letter being Stolen. :mrgreen:

As I said, all you need to know to work about a value estimate is in post #1, which did clearly state this -
Global Administrator wrote:The only guide we have here, is the owner's note that £20 was paid to a dealer for this item decades back.
So far, over a Quarter of the votes are for value $250 -
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Rod Perry »

I'm in the $100k team.

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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by dukeprince »

Rod Perry wrote:I'm in the $100k team.

Rod
David B and Rod are at $100K, I will have a stab at $50K(if there was a $75K button I would have went for that) these two are very knowledgeable in this field , but another exists at the Mitchel Library it seems so I discount for that.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Global Administrator »

dukeprince wrote:
Rod Perry wrote:I'm in the $100k team.

Rod
David B and Rod are at $100K .... these two are very knowledgeable in this field
And note, neither required scans of contents or reverse. :idea:
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by billw2 »

Before I read the thread my suspicion was that this was at least a nice mid sized luxury sedan only in that it's got to be an extremely early letter from WA.

As a postal history collector it absolutely is all about the use.

I'd guess $50-100k
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Greg Ioannou »

I know absolutely nothing about pre-stamp stuff. But David and Rod both guessed 100k, and that's good enough for me.

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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Territorian »

I would price it at $250.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Wucky100 »

I selected $2,500 and I am openly honest about this, I have absolutely now idea, I just like guessing.

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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by mcgooley »

Gone for 25K, based on gut-feeling only.

Voices from W.A.s early European history are few and faint (whether or not notable personalities are involved) - and 1830 was an interesting year - but there's no mention of which of the early settlements our chatty friend is describing...
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Global Administrator »

mcgooley wrote: .... there's no mention of which of the early settlements our chatty friend is describing...
Did not add it, as it makes zero difference to the value, but it is datelined 'Cockburn Sound' (south of Swan River)
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by mcgooley »

Global Administrator wrote:...it makes zero difference to the value, but it is datelined 'Cockburn Sound' (south of Swan River)
Dunno about that...
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by dukeprince »

Global Administrator wrote:
mcgooley wrote: .... there's no mention of which of the early settlements our chatty friend is describing...
Did not add it, as it makes zero difference to the value, but it is datelined 'Cockburn Sound' (south of Swan River)
This was the location of the Peel Settlement also know as Peel Town. the name Elmslie is mentioned in the history strangely as 1831a and 1831c whatever that refers to ?, he appears to have been a Supervisor, I guess working for Peel.

Further reading shows 4 letters known the one at Mitchel plus letters 1831 a,b,c to a Brown.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Global Administrator »

dukeprince wrote:
This was the location of the Peel Settlement also know as Peel Town. the name Elmslie is mentioned in the history strangely as 1831a and 1831c whatever that refers to ?, he appears to have been a Supervisor, I guess working for Peel
The letter was written by Adam Wallace Elmslie, who arrived on the Gilmore on 15.12.1829 with his two children, and departed to Van Dieman's Land in 1832.

I repeat neither sender or recipient adds an extra cent to the value of this cover. Billy Smith to Jimmy Smith etc would see it worth the same.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Global Administrator »

Elmslie is not a common surname, and "Adam Wallace Elmslie" will be a unique combo I'd suggest, so our writer hit hard times soon after, it seems. :lol: :lol: :lol:

The London Gazette of 1836.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by PeeVee »

I have no idea but if Rod and David voted for $100,000 I'll stick me neck out and up the ante to $250,000 :D
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Rod Perry »

Territorian wrote:I would price it at $250.
Do you have anything for sale?

I like your style.

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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by dukeprince »

I know you said forget about it being stolen from the Mitchell library , but just being curious is it that one and have you been asked to value it?

Why I ask is at this time I am under the impression there are two letters from Elmslie 1830 if there is one it may alter the estimate game.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Luis78 »

As far as I know, the Post Office in WA was setup in late 1829, and it took them a few years to get their act together (amend regulations, create PO Stamps, etc.). I would say the extraordinary thing about this item is that it has no record of leaving WA (first mark refers to Mauritius, right?)

So, considering it's pre-Post Office Stamps, I go with $25.000.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Global Administrator »

Rod Perry wrote:
Territorian wrote:I would price it at $250.
Do you have anything for sale?

I like your style.

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I want to instead think positive, and BEG PeeVee to peruse my offer lists, if he believes this cover is truly worth $250,000!

Boy have I got some Brooklyn Bridges to sell him. CASH DISCOUNTS for such well heeled buyers of course. 8)
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by DarrenK »

I've gone for $10K.

Just a guess and no knowledge of this at all.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by fchd »

The centering is way off - see how the tail of the "D" of England isn't clear of the right hand edge. I'd have to mark it down on that respect.

Seriously I have no idea what it's worth, sounds like it is a big ticket item from the posts of those considerably more knowledgeable than me in that area.

A quick question, more out of interest than anything else, is the India Letter/Falmouth in black or blue?
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by VFND55 »

My guess is, the earliest known surviving letter to date posted to/from Mauritius is 1838. This letter pre-dates that by 8 years. Extremely rare and could fetch a large sum of money. I would price it $A50,000.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

Global Administrator wrote: Actually the rear only has the common framed "INDIA LETTER/ FALMOUTH"
So, it is British rather than any Indian transit mark and without any scan, I can tell it is Tabeart type In4a oblong INDIA LETTER mark of Aberfala which ceased to be used from 1843 when Southampton became the port of mails for India replacing Aberfala following the Court of Directors, East India Company Letter No.19 dt. September 19,1843.

Had it been Fowydh or Lannvorek, the price would have been alone $1800+ just for the India Letter mark.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by fchd »

Were there any postal markings of that period that were in Cornish (Aberfal, Fowydh, Lannvorek)? I've only ever got postal markings of that era using the English versions which would be Falmouth, Fowey & Mevagissey. I'm not completely convinced Falmouth was ever widely known as Aberfal or Aberfala anyway.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by PeeVee »

Global Administrator wrote:
MERCENARY dealer. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I want to instead think positive, and BEG PeeVee to peruse my offer lists, if he believes this cover is truly worth $250,000!

Boy have I got some Brooklyn Bridges to sell him. CASH DISCOUNTS for such well heeled buyers of course. 8)
Didn't you read the first four words in my post?

"I have no idea..." :roll:

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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by dukeprince »

VFND55 wrote:My guess is, the earliest known surviving letter to date posted to/from Mauritius is 1838. This letter pre-dates that by 8 years. Extremely rare and could fetch a large sum of money. I would price it $A50,000.
If you are correct but I have seen references to 1638 letters ?, then as per Glens statement of only the front needs perusal as the rest is unimportant may be the thing that sets it apart.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by borsac »

I'm figuring this might be one of (if not the) the earliest known mail items out of Swan River Colony?

In February 1830 the population couldn't have been much more than a thousand or so.
Also Western Australians love their early history so I'm going $50k+.
Easily more if the institutions are cashed up.

EDIT: Glen is the date when it was received in the UK or when it was sent?
If it's when received then it's super early. might make it $250k

And aplogies David Benson looks like I plagiarized you in your post above. But I didn't - honest :?
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by aethelwulf »

fchd wrote:Were there any postal markings of that period that were in Cornish (Aberfal, Fowydh, Lannvorek)? I've only ever got postal markings of that era using the English versions which would be Falmouth, Fowey & Mevagissey. I'm not completely convinced Falmouth was ever widely known as Aberfal or Aberfala anyway.
Joy always writes the name of every place using the place's native language spelling, either to be pedantic or just show off, who knows. It gets bloody annoying to understand what the heck he's even talking about sometimes, like this--I had no idea, and I'm sure 99.9% of people won't know--Falmouth = Aberfal.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by David Benson »

re.
Joy always writes the name of every place using the place's native language spelling, either to be pedantic or just show off, who knows. It gets bloody annoying,
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by dukeprince »

David Benson wrote:re.
Joy always writes the name of every place using the place's native language spelling, either to be pedantic or just show off, who knows. It gets bloody annoying,
David B.

Some of us are happy to increase our knowledge , its only rudeness or cheap shots that can at times irritate , facts never should annoy.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by David Benson »

Dukeprince,

It is not factual to use Cornish place names for the various ports in Cornwall which used INDIA SHIP LETTER markings. The names of towns are the English names not the Cornish names and are never referred to that way.

If I said that Aotearoa issued it's first stamps in 1855, I am sure that there would be a few on this board who would understand what I am talking about but many who wouldn't have a clue.

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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by satsuma »

The name Aberfal(a) was invented for Falmouth more than 100 years after this letter was received there, so the use of it in the discussion is a wilful anachronism.

To the letter itself: 16d was a serious amount of money for postage in 1830, not many of the settlers could have afforded that rate so letters from the period must be rare.

I'm interested in the Mb marking on the face in large letters. Is it thought to be contemporary? If so, is it of significance?

I'll reserve my guess pending an aswer to that.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by dukeprince »

satsuma wrote:The name Aberfal(a) was invented for Falmouth more than 100 years after this letter was received there, so the use of it in the discussion is a wilful anachronism.

To the letter itself: 16d was a serious amount of money for postage in 1830, not many of the settlers could have afforded that rate so letters from the period must be rare.

I'm interested in the Mb marking on the face in large letters. Is it thought to be contemporary? If so, is it of significance?


I'll reserve my guess pending an aswer to that.
Ken
I think perhaps the Mb you refer to is the roughly written 1/4d, ie 16 pence rate, that was what I took it for initially.
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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by satsuma »

In that case I'll guess 25k.

No expertise to base it on - just the 100k figure seems a little hopeful to me in my ignorance.

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Re: POLL: What is this early West. Australia cover to UK wor

Post by Global Administrator »

satsuma wrote:
To the letter itself: 16d was a serious amount of money for postage in 1830, not many of the settlers could have afforded that rate so letters from the period must be rare.

I'm interested in the Mb marking on the face in large letters. Is it thought to be contemporary? If so, is it of significance?
All initial WA (and SA settlers) were successful free men and business types, so was 1/4d was not onerous.

As is normal, the letter cost is noted on face, here 1/4d, not "Mb". :lol: :lol: :lol:
Global Administrator wrote:Manuscript "1/4d" on face or 16d, again normal rate.
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