Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auction

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by Rod Perry »

capetriangle wrote:
Rod Perry wrote:As for most auctions, amongst the high results, there was plenty of value for money elsewhere at Besançon, and even some great value unsold lots.

My overview (and that for Chartwell ) will appear in July/August Australasian Stamp News.

Would you agree, Richard, this was one of the better value for money lots yesterday? :
Image

1855 (Jan): 1 s. very deep brown "chocolate" shade, a fine used example with good margins all round and extraordinary depth of colour, cancelled by mute obliterator in black. Provenance: Collection Lars T. Amundsen, SG, London, 6-8 Dec 1967, lot 622.
Hammer just 800CHF.

I've long been puzzled why this rare and highly distinctive "chocolate" shade has not been catalogued by S.G.

Any idea why that should be so, Richard?

Unlike the rare "Salmon", it doesn't so much as require a certificate!

Rod
Certainly, I noticed that shade during the auction but had not really planned on adding to the earlier issues in the collection. I did think it was going reasonably during the hammering-down but remembered seeing "chocolate" shades in Frank Chadwick's exhibits (and no-where else) in the early 1970s as supercharged red-browns, rather than this one which may be a supercharged grey-brown. So this one may not actually be the "chocolate" shade as I understand it.

However, it is completely unfair to make a shade classification without actually seeing the stamp.

There was one mistake that I noticed in the WA section of the catalogue that being the "tilted frame" which was incorrectly identified. I pointed it out to them prior to the sale but no mention was made by the auctioneer.
Image
Kindest regards

Richard
Richard, I was a major buyer at Chadwick, and the biggest buyer at Gartner (W.A.).

(A large portion of those purchases ended up with the infamous John du Pont.)

I may have bought Chadwick's "chocolates" ? I have my respective original auction catalogues, and will dig them out for review.

I recall seeing perhaps a half dozen "chocolates" (about the same number of "salmons" seen over several decades), including at least one unused.

I'm reasonably confident the "chocolates" are a distinct, obviously tiny printing.

I rate the example featured above, ex Amundsen, one of the fussiest Classic-era philatelists ever, as one of the buys of Besançon.

I'm not surprised an error in classifying the "Tilted frame" occurred. I find it one of the most confusing items of the Australian Colonies, and question ought it be listed?

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by camelspotter »

Thank you very much for your insights, Richard and Rod.

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by A Helmich »

capetriangle wrote:
There was one mistake that I noticed in the WA section of the catalogue that being the "tilted frame" which was incorrectly identified. I pointed it out to them prior to the sale but no mention was made by the auctioneer.
I also pointed it out to them that it wasn't a "tilted frame". The stamp in the lot is actually position R5/3 on the intermediate stone.
Rod Perry wrote: I'm not surprised an error in classifying the "Tilted frame" occurred. I find it one of the most confusing items of the Australian Colonies, and question ought it be listed?
Should it be listed? Yes
Should it's catalogue value be as high as it is? No
Should some of the 4d lithograph varieties have a higher catalogue value in comparison to the "Tilted frame"? Definitely Yes
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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by A Helmich »

I was disappointed with the quality of the scans. Especially a stamp such as the inverted frame which was going to get a high price.

Counter to this is that Corinphila were very helpful in emailing better scans.
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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by aethelwulf »

capetriangle wrote:the "Please God, don't let me get it phase" of bidding from CHF 10,000 to CHF 17,000.
There is a certain Schadenfreude about running up the bidding and coming out the underbidder; someone wants the item badly, so you're going to make sure they pay dearly for it. Not criticizing, but neither should I too openly condone the act for fear of being pilloried.
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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by Rod Perry »

A Helmich wrote:
capetriangle wrote:
There was one mistake that I noticed in the WA section of the catalogue that being the "tilted frame" which was incorrectly identified. I pointed it out to them prior to the sale but no mention was made by the auctioneer.
I also pointed it out to them that it wasn't a "tilted frame". The stamp in the lot is actually position R5/3 on the intermediate stone.
Rod Perry wrote: I'm not surprised an error in classifying the "Tilted frame" occurred. I find it one of the most confusing items of the Australian Colonies, and question ought it be listed?
Should it be listed? Yes
Should it's catalogue value be as high as it is? No
Should some of the 4d lithograph varieties have a higher catalogue value in comparison to the "Tilted frame"? Definitely Yes
Pleased to see you join this thread, A Helmich.

Do you have more to add to the debate on the 1854 1/- "chocolate", principally relating to the example in Besançon? (see image top of this page)

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by Rod Perry »

aethelwulf wrote:
capetriangle wrote:the "Please God, don't let me get it phase" of bidding from CHF 10,000 to CHF 17,000.
There is a certain Schadenfreude about running up the bidding and coming out the underbidder; someone wants the item badly, so you're going to make sure they pay dearly for it. Not criticizing, but neither should I too openly condone the act for fear of being pilloried.
There is a simple antidote to apply when one pays too much for a lot in an auction, applicable however only when the aberration is included within multiple purchases, at that same auction.

Assuming, in that same auction, you have bought some lot/s at under your maximum bid, apportion some or all of the "saving" to offset the "pain" of having paid what you consider too much for a lot/s elsewhere in the auction.

That scheme has worked for me . . . for five decades.

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by capetriangle »

All concerned

I actually had to look up "Schadenfreude" for this post, having never heard of the term before.

When bidding at auction I rarely have set limits on individual lots, just an idea of how important certain lots are to me for my collections. I almost never now bid on the book at any auction, much preferring internet or telephone bidding or being in the actual room.

One exception to the limits issue was my own copy of the Inverted Frame which was bought in a New York Christies Robson Lowe sale in the summer of 1989 on the telephone from England at my parent's house. The stamp was bought for $14,500 hammer and I had planned to give up at $16,000.

For over a decade it was the most expensive stamp in the entire collection and I still walk around with the figure of $15,962.50 ($14,500 plus a merciful 10% plus $12.50 for shipping) in my head. Years ago when I might quote it to casual acquaintances they were always surprised that I had it down to the last 50c!

I suppose that is the reason why some men buy large and powerful motor cars.

Regarding the Cape of Good Hope cover which I was the direct underbidder on, it was beautiful, and David Morrison (the English postal history dealer) had pointed out to me that a similar item was needed for the exhibit when he first saw it in Milwaukee in 2013. It was the combination cover, lot #2077, bearing two rectangular 1d's with a triangular 6d. to make up the double inland rate. I would post a picture if I could figure out how to do it.

These combination covers are frequently visually unappealing in the extreme bearing stamps with pieces out or with a triangular wrapped around the edge of the cover. This one was none of that.

However there were mistakes in the description, the 6d was described as a De La Rue when it was, in fact, a Perkins Bacon (a point conceded by Corinphila during bidding) and they had the origination of the cover and the cancellation wrong. It is clearly a BONC "4," rather than a "1" as described. I was ready, willing and able to purchase at the CHF 17,000 + 21% increment, but it would have taken me dangerously close to my credit limit for the sale.

I certainly agree with Arthur that the "Tilted frame" should have catalogue status but it is one of the two or so which occurs four times in the sheet, the other being the "Pointed T."

Enough said for now.

Kindest regards

Richard

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by MJ's pet »

capetriangle wrote: The Western Australia Inverted Frame just realized CHF 260,000 plus 21% (=CHF 314,600) about an hour ago in Zurich.

I did not buy it!

The buyer was bidding online against a telephone bidder. There are, of course, two favorite contenders for the stamp: Joseph Hackmey and Arthur Woo. I do not know who the successful gentleman was.
Joseph Hackmey was the underbidder for Lord Vestey's Inverted Swan in 2015, which went for around AUD $250,000, knocked down to Arthur Woo.

Maybe he didn't want to miss out second-time around?

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by GlenStephens »

On thing is for sure - there was some serious under-bidding going on for it. :lol:

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by jojo »

Does anyone have any comments as to prices achieved for this latest sale, particularly in view of the underwhelming results for "Chartwell' ? Rather reassuring, in my opinion .....

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by A Helmich »

Rod Perry wrote:
capetriangle wrote:
Rod Perry wrote:As for most auctions, amongst the high results, there was plenty of value for money elsewhere at Besançon, and even some great value unsold lots.

My overview (and that for Chartwell ) will appear in July/August Australasian Stamp News.

Would you agree, Richard, this was one of the better value for money lots yesterday? :
Image

1855 (Jan): 1 s. very deep brown "chocolate" shade, a fine used example with good margins all round and extraordinary depth of colour, cancelled by mute obliterator in black. Provenance: Collection Lars T. Amundsen, SG, London, 6-8 Dec 1967, lot 622.
Hammer just 800CHF.

I've long been puzzled why this rare and highly distinctive "chocolate" shade has not been catalogued by S.G.

Any idea why that should be so, Richard?

Unlike the rare "Salmon", it doesn't so much as require a certificate!

Rod
Certainly, I noticed that shade during the auction but had not really planned on adding to the earlier issues in the collection. I did think it was going reasonably during the hammering-down but remembered seeing "chocolate" shades in Frank Chadwick's exhibits (and no-where else) in the early 1970s as supercharged red-browns, rather than this one which may be a supercharged grey-brown. So this one may not actually be the "chocolate" shade as I understand it.

However, it is completely unfair to make a shade classification without actually seeing the stamp.

There was one mistake that I noticed in the WA section of the catalogue that being the "tilted frame" which was incorrectly identified. I pointed it out to them prior to the sale but no mention was made by the auctioneer.
Image
Kindest regards

Richard
Richard, I was a major buyer at Chadwick, and the biggest buyer at Gartner (W.A.).

(A large portion of those purchases ended up with the infamous John du Pont.)

I may have bought Chadwick's "chocolates" ? I have my respective original auction catalogues, and will dig them out for review.

I recall seeing perhaps a half dozen "chocolates" (about the same number of "salmons" seen over several decades), including at least one unused.

I'm reasonably confident the "chocolates" are a distinct, obviously tiny printing.

I rate the example featured above, ex Amundsen, one of the fussiest Classic-era philatelists ever, as one of the buys of Besançon.

I'm not surprised an error in classifying the "Tilted frame" occurred. I find it one of the most confusing items of the Australian Colonies, and question ought it be listed?

Rod
Stanley Gibbons are not very good for shades. Very undefined.

The chocolate is part of the grey browns, which makes it the third printing. The only way to properly define the shade may be to look at the Royal collection or the HL White collection. These are intact collections from the time that Stanley Gibbons was using chocolate as a shade.

Deep red brown is easily defined, but I often see it mis-identified.

Deep dull blue from the 4d lithographs is the worst. Several conflicting definitions. Regularly wrongly described even according to these definitions.
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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by A Helmich »

This is the description for Corinphila lot 3506 -

1d black, rouletted 7½ to 14, an unused example, minor thin spot at left but with small part og. An exceedingly rare stamp in much above average condition. Cert RPSV (2002)

Below is an enlarged image from the Corinphila "Besancon" website from June 2018. My first impression was that it looks faded and cleaned.

Image

This is a higher resolution sent to me. Many brown lines from a cleaned pen cancel are now obvious.

Image

Putting the image into retroreveal and the cleaned cancel stands out.

Image

It has a RPSV certificate stating it is genuine. Retroreveal wasn't available in 2002, but magnification certainly was available. It is most probably the first step that you should take in expertising. The roulettes are most probably also forged. I find that forgers often do several alterations to a stamp.

Image

The lot sold for 4,200 CHF plus 21% buyer's commission. (Approximately A$6,800)
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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by Rod Perry »

A Helmich wrote:
Rod Perry wrote:
capetriangle wrote:
Rod Perry wrote:As for most auctions, amongst the high results, there was plenty of value for money elsewhere at Besançon, and even some great value unsold lots.

My overview (and that for Chartwell ) will appear in July/August Australasian Stamp News.

Would you agree, Richard, this was one of the better value for money lots yesterday? :
Image

1855 (Jan): 1 s. very deep brown "chocolate" shade, a fine used example with good margins all round and extraordinary depth of colour, cancelled by mute obliterator in black. Provenance: Collection Lars T. Amundsen, SG, London, 6-8 Dec 1967, lot 622.
Hammer just 800CHF.

I've long been puzzled why this rare and highly distinctive "chocolate" shade has not been catalogued by S.G.

Any idea why that should be so, Richard?

Unlike the rare "Salmon", it doesn't so much as require a certificate!

Rod
Certainly, I noticed that shade during the auction but had not really planned on adding to the earlier issues in the collection. I did think it was going reasonably during the hammering-down but remembered seeing "chocolate" shades in Frank Chadwick's exhibits (and no-where else) in the early 1970s as supercharged red-browns, rather than this one which may be a supercharged grey-brown. So this one may not actually be the "chocolate" shade as I understand it.

However, it is completely unfair to make a shade classification without actually seeing the stamp.

There was one mistake that I noticed in the WA section of the catalogue that being the "tilted frame" which was incorrectly identified. I pointed it out to them prior to the sale but no mention was made by the auctioneer.
Image
Kindest regards

Richard
Richard, I was a major buyer at Chadwick, and the biggest buyer at Gartner (W.A.).

(A large portion of those purchases ended up with the infamous John du Pont.)

I may have bought Chadwick's "chocolates" ? I have my respective original auction catalogues, and will dig them out for review.

I recall seeing perhaps a half dozen "chocolates" (about the same number of "salmons" seen over several decades), including at least one unused.

I'm reasonably confident the "chocolates" are a distinct, obviously tiny printing.

I rate the example featured above, ex Amundsen, one of the fussiest Classic-era philatelists ever, as one of the buys of Besançon.

I'm not surprised an error in classifying the "Tilted frame" occurred. I find it one of the most confusing items of the Australian Colonies, and question ought it be listed?

Rod
Stanley Gibbons are not very good for shades. Very undefined.

The chocolate is part of the grey browns, which makes it the third printing. The only way to properly define the shade may be to look at the Royal collection or the HL White collection. These are intact collections from the time that Stanley Gibbons was using chocolate as a shade.

Deep red brown is easily defined, but I often see it mis-identified.

Deep dull blue from the 4d lithographs is the worst. Several conflicting definitions. Regularly wrongly described even according to these definitions.
Agree with your sentiments on the 4d Deep dull blue.

It's a very unsatisfactory catalogue listing.

I would far rather see the 1/- Chocolate reintroduced to the catalogue.

Rod
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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by Global Administrator »

A Helmich wrote:This is the description for Corinphila lot 3506 -

1d black, rouletted 7½ to 14, an unused example, minor thin spot at left but with small part og. An exceedingly rare stamp in much above average condition. Cert RPSV (2002)

Below is an enlarged image from the Corinphila "Besancon" website from June 2018. My first impression was that it looks faded and cleaned.

Image

This is a higher resolution sent to me. Brown lines from a cleaned cancel are now obvious.

Image

Putting the image into retroreveal and the cleaned cancel stands out.

Image

It has a RPSV certificate stating it is genuine. Retro reveal wasn't available in 2002 but magnification certainly was available. It is most probably the first step that you should take in expertising. The roulettes are most probably also forged. I find that forgers often do several alterations to a stamp.

Image

The lot sold for 4,200 CHF plus 21% buyer's commission. (Approximately A$6,800)
What a clanger of a Certificate. :roll: :roll:
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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by Global Administrator »

I have a set of both these two now legendary Besancon stamp Auction catalogues if anyone missed them - both thick hard cover, with dust jackets, and full colour on Hi-Brite gloss paper and great reference illustrations. $A50 the pair - Stock 827LQ
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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by Glenelg »

Hi Glen,

Sold to me if still available please.

Kind regards,

Craig

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by Glenelg »

Thanks Glen. Order sent.

Kind regards,

Craig

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by GlenStephens »

Sounds like all the GB collection will be rolled out in the next year or two there. :)
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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by Rod Perry »

GlenStephens wrote:Sounds like all the GB collection will be rolled out in the next year or two there. :)
Glen, make that "rolled out in the next four years"!
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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by pres »

Much chat about the Aust Commonwealth and NSW & WA, time for a comment on the South Australia, in particular my hobby horse the Departmentals.

They were listed as a separate sale at the suggestion of an SA collector who made the comment that if lotted as most European and UK auction houses do, in groups, they would not sell well, but if lotted individually would do much better.

I had bids on 10 items and registered for live bidding, hence sat up until 4am to watch. I was not in the hunt, even when on my last item I threw the whole of my limit at it.

I did however manage to purchase an unsold which in addition was ex Mursell, but not Napier.

The prices for the covers in particular the AG cover were incredible.

The Australia and Departmentals catalogues are now residing in my library.

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by Global Administrator »

Hopefully Pres and others can update SG, and get these Departmentals priced for the first time. :mrgreen:
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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by Global Administrator »

https://corinphila.ch/en/_auctions/?action=search&auctionID= ... rder=lotno

Does anyone have a printed Prices Realised list for Besancon 2 they can send me?

The website is still there (above) but try as I might clicking their Prices Realised tabs gets nowhere. Can anyone figure out who to obtain it on their site?

Glen
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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by Allanswood »

It looks like the "list" disappears, but you can download a PDF of the lots and prices realised.
Although its over 200 pages the file was only 3mb - which is small. :D


https://f660b8feb5396b87e648727b5bf147a985cd65b2-media.s3.am ... no_ASC.pdf
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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by Global Administrator »

Thanks Greg .. I can see all that on the website.

A ''tiny'' 232 page print out to slip into the front cover of my Catalogue is not what I am looking for. 8)

A simple TWO page one just like the last 100 years of PR lists from real auctions will be perfect if someone here saved that. Hence my post. :idea:
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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by bazza4338 »

I can produce a "Lot Number" and "Prices Realised" list (2 - 3 pages) if you wish.

Just to confirm....

Is this the correct Auction? Starting at Lot 3001 and ending at Lot 3831?

Image

Image

Do you want just CHF Swiss Francs shown or do you also want A$ Australian Dollars at A$1.50 per 1.00 CHF as well?

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by Global Administrator »

That would be perfect thanks Bazza .... Corinphila should put you on a consultancy. :)

Just the CHF Hammer prices would be perfect we all know these Swiss Gnomes add another 25% on top of that with buyer fees and lot fees, and insurance and taxes etc - yes that is the correct sale. :mrgreen:

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

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Will do

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

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Page 1 Sold List

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Glen, I will email the full spreadsheet to you.

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

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Superb work - many thanks Barry .. a lot more compact than printing off the 250 page PDF! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Glen
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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

Post by MJ's pet »

Has it been confirmed if Joseph Hackmey purchased the Besancon Inverted Frame, or do we just assume he did? :lol: :lol:

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Re: Aust States, Aust, Papua and GRI stamps go INSANE at auc

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MJ's pet wrote:Has it been confirmed if Joseph Hackmey purchased the Besancon Inverted Frame, or do we just assume he did? :lol: :lol:
Who is "we"?

Dr. Woo is the only name I heard mooted.
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