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Mossgreen Auctions Australia in Administration. Total KAPUT?

Posted: 22 Dec 2017 19:04
by bazza4338

Re: Mossgreen - APPOINTMENT AND FIRST MEETING OF CREDITORS

Posted: 22 Dec 2017 19:39
by David Benson
Hopefully Stampboard members are not included in the Creditors list,

David Benson

Re: Mossgreen - APPOINTMENT AND FIRST MEETING OF CREDITORS

Posted: 22 Dec 2017 20:55
by mobbor
Amazing! Why did it happen, and what are the implications?

Re: Mossgreen - APPOINTMENT AND FIRST MEETING OF CREDITORS

Posted: 22 Dec 2017 21:55
by Lakatoi 4
Not a good time of year for this to happen to their employees :!:

There is always the chance that they may be able to trade out of this after all it is a voluntary administration, but if the worst happens I hope Gary, Charles, Torsten and Nick have an exit plan in place.

Re: Mossgreen - APPOINTMENT AND FIRST MEETING OF CREDITORS

Posted: 22 Dec 2017 22:21
by Global Administrator
Reading all this at 40,000 feet on Wifi flying from Vienna to Nicosia Cyprus for Xmas.

This below was the footer of a mossgreen staffer email I got only yesterday.

They are closed for 3 weeks now it seems. HOW convenient.

Announce it as you close the doors for 2017 and tell creditors they MUST register by Jan 3. I am a creditor and have received no notice of any kind.
Image

Re: Mossgreen - APPOINTMENT AND FIRST MEETING OF CREDITORS

Posted: 22 Dec 2017 22:28
by Global Administrator
Not sure how many there saw this coming.

A senior manager there contacted me only 2 weeks back re a large quantity of an item that they had on hand they owned, they were going to 'rationalise', as they were moving to offices 'across the road' and asked me for my best offer.

I made my best offer as always, and the reply was "we were not thinking THAT low" and they declined, saying they'd keep the material for "promotional purposes". It was not chicken feed my offer - very many $100s, and I assume if they saw this on the radar they'd have ripped my arm off. :idea:

Glen

Re: Mossgreen - APPOINTMENT AND FIRST MEETING OF CREDITORS

Posted: 22 Dec 2017 22:33
by Global Administrator
Members are urged to read this thread I posted only 3 months back -

http://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=78841

Re Jack Gringlas and Charles Leski both jumping ship.
Global Administrator wrote:Changes at the very top at mossgreen auctions Melbourne

Most readers will be aware of this auction company. Charles Leski Auctions merged into mossgreen some years back. Followed a couple of years later by major Australian stamp auction, Gary Watson’s Prestige Philately, and Nick Anning moved across with him. And in the past year or 2, also Torsten Weller’s postal history business.

All 4 well known identities actively work for the mossgreen company, although from what I can see, Leski has no direct connection with the stamp area these days.

Mossgreen were also in the fine arts auction business and there are regular sales.

The mossgreen website until last month showed Jack Gringlas as Chairman of mossgreen, and Charles Leski as Deputy Chairman -

https://web.archive.org/web/20170714193321/https://www.mossg ... directors/

Both names are absent now on the website.

The 'Australian Financial Review' reported on August 30 -

Mossgreen is now understood to have parted company with its chairman and major financial backer, billionaire Jack Gringlas.

As reported in these pages, it has in recent times reduced staff after moving into the stamp business, and spreading its operations to New Zealand.


http://www.afr.com/lifestyle/arts-and-entertainment/art/two- ... 830-gy6xy3

The same newspaper reported earlier in August –

"Mossgreen is shedding more than a dozen staff and has sold its premises, but chief executive Paul Sumner says it is business as usual at the Melbourne-based auction house, which continues to line up sales at a frenetic pace.

Sumner says the staff restructure reflects the firm's increasing focus on single-owner collections and higher value lots following its expansion in recent years - including the merger with the Charles Leski stamp auction group in 2013, and the takeover of New Zealand's Webb's last year.

He says the job-shedding involves mainly internal support staff, though one specialist left of his own accord.

As for the sale of its premises, a refurbished cinema in Armadale that was once the home of Sotheby's, Sumner says the firm leases the building, as it does all its premises. "The new owner is someone we know well," he says.


http://www.afr.com/lifestyle/arts-and-entertainment/art/moss ... 802-gxnjgz

The AFR also published August 23 that a well-known person to many collectors and members here had left mossgreen –

"It was recently announced that Max Williamson, long-time sports specialist with Charles Leski Auctions, then with Mossgreen after the Leski merger, has now joined Leonard Joel in Melbourne.

This shows that sports memorabilia is now one of the most competitive categories on the secondary market.

"I am thrilled that Max Williamson, easily the acknowledged leading Australian expert in the sporting memorabilia area, has joined Leonard Joel," says managing director John Albrecht.

There are surprisingly few experts in this area. Over the past few decades Williamson has tapped into the tight network of collectors, which means they tend to approach him first.

"Every morning I sit down in front of the computer and go through my emails," he says. "Most are asking me the same thing … 'what's it worth?'
"

http://www.afr.com/lifestyle/arts-and-entertainment/art/spor ... 823-gy24l1

I understand that many millions had been spent in recent times on the large mossgreen complex in trendy inner city ‘Antiques Alley’ Armadale. Whether Jack Gringlas owned it I am not sure, but I assumed he did. It used to be the Sotheby’s offices.

Gringlas is a Billionaire according to the AFR above, and clearly has deep pockets. He is a very active stamp collector, and I imagine that is why he was keen to see a strong stamp operation merge in to the mossgreen Fine Arts umbrella. Good to see!

I suggested to he and Charles when in Melbourne that buying Stanley Gibbons might be an idea to look into. He was not keen - “I like auctioning things, not buying companies with fixed stocks” and I can see it really was not a fit for the operation. In hindsight rather wise, as the SG share price has slumped further in the interim – sadly. :(

Who actually owns mossgreen now, I honestly do not know, or whether they are as keen about stamps as Gringlas was. Leski, Watson, Weller and Anning are all still in situ there as far as I can see, and let’s hope things stay that way. :mrgreen:

Glen

Re: Mossgreen - APPOINTMENT AND FIRST MEETING OF CREDITORS

Posted: 22 Dec 2017 22:48
by Global Administrator
Charles Leski did stay on with a minor role in the Australasia Collectibles Department. Margo and I were invited to a cocktail party at their Queen Street Woollahra office only a couple of weeks back, to inspect some of their forthcoming lots, and we did, and Charles as usual was most affable. 8)

Again I just made an offer on some other material that Charles had a large say in, and that too was rejected, despite being virtually at their asking price, so again no sign the place was apparently in trouble - or they also would have ripped my arm off. :mrgreen:

My entire feeing about mossgreen was it was absurdly overstaffed, and overcommitted re premises and location, and I voiced that view several times here and elsewhere, including the thread linked above.

No less than THREE trendy young Gucci clad Toorak type fashionistas, sitting on a podium, daintily answering phones, is a sign of a very short future was my feeling, when I saw that first hand at their HQ premises, and that prediction has came home to roost it seems.

Gary Watson kindly took me on a tour of the back office area, and it was like looking at a medium sized Government Department. Endless desks and layers of stuff doing 'something'. :idea:

Re: Mossgreen - APPOINTMENT AND FIRST MEETING OF CREDITORS

Posted: 22 Dec 2017 23:04
by BigSaint
Last year Velvet, this year Mossgreen :!:

Note the registration of this business name in 2016:

Name: MOSSGREEN AUCTIONS
Registration Number:
Registered State:
Registration Date: 24/05/2016
Status: Registered
Type: Business Names

& this one too:

Name: MOSSGREEN ONLINE
Registration number:
State of registration:
Registration date: 19/05/2016
Status: Registered
Type: Business Names

Has there been some restructuring happening in the background :?:

Guess we will know in the fullness of time.

Brad

Re: Mossgreen - APPOINTMENT AND FIRST MEETING OF CREDITORS

Posted: 22 Dec 2017 23:06
by BigSaint
Global Administrator wrote:My entire feeling about mossgreen was it was absurdly overstaffed, and overcommitted re premises and location, and I voiced that view several times here and elsewhere, including the thread linked above.
:
Glen

You were not the only person that held that view.

Brad

Re: Mossgreen - APPOINTMENT AND FIRST MEETING OF CREDITORS

Posted: 22 Dec 2017 23:14
by Global Administrator
BigSaint wrote:Last year Velvet, this year Mossgreen :!:

Note the registration of this business name in 2016:

Name: MOSSGREEN AUCTIONS
Registration Number:
Registered State:
Registration Date: 24/05/2016
Status: Registered
Type: Business Names

& this one too:

Name: MOSSGREEN ONLINE
Registration number:
State of registration:
Registration date: 19/05/2016
Status: Registered
Type: Business Names

Has there been some restructuring happening in the background :?:

Guess we will know in the fullness of time.

Brad
It seemed to me Paul Sumner was the BUYER from Gringlas.

HE should have known the figures surely as he was a Big Boss there??

Re: Mossgreen - APPOINTMENT AND FIRST MEETING OF CREDITORS

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 06:28
by Lakatoi 4
BigSaint wrote:
Global Administrator wrote:My entire feeling about mossgreen was it was absurdly overstaffed, and overcommitted re premises and location, and I voiced that view several times here and elsewhere, including the thread linked above.
:
Glen

You were not the only person that held that view.

Brad
Agree with that :!:

You have to have a lean and mean setup to compete in the auction industry, today even more so.

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 11:00
by Kevin Morgan
Auctioneering is a dicey business, even with low fixed costs, which is why I got out of it soon after the start up of Phoenix by David Wood and Ken Pearson, both of whom had been involved in my 21st Century Auctions business at it's formation.

I now continue the business name on eBay, where I sell mostly my own stock at fixed prices.

Unless you own around 75% of the stock yourself I see no way to make a quid, at least in Australia.

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 11:20
by capetriangle
This is astonishing.

I recall seeing Torsten Weller in New Jersey/New York twice since September 2017, once at NOJEX and once at The Collectors Club.

I was even considering consigning.

I never understood the tea-rooms thing.

Kindest regards

Richard Debney

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 11:35
by Clive
The success of their stamp auctions could not have been helped by raising the buyers' commission to 24%, which as far as I know is the highest in the country.

Plus the increasingly buyer-gouging add ons which seem to be so common.

Clive

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 11:42
by capetriangle
Clive wrote:The success of their stamp auctions could not have been helped by raising the buyers' commission to 24%, which as far as I know is the highest in the country.

Plus the increasingly buyer-gouging add ons which seem to be so common.

Clive
When I spoke to Torsten in September, he told me that the 24% was for one sale only, the result of having two departments involved and that it was now 20%.

Kindest regards

Richard

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 11:54
by borsac
Interesting timing too.
All the lawyers and accountants are about to head off to the slopes at Whistler or their beach houses right about on Tuesday.

I have sold through them (art not stamps) and always found them excellent to deal with.

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 13:00
by billw2
This is disturbing.

My thoughts go out to Torsten who's a great guy and was at NOJEX this year under Mossgreen's banner.

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 14:44
by GJ50
As they had major shareholder changes 6 months ago this could be nothing more than cleaning up the old company. Note the Name Mossgreen Pty Ltd.

They now trade on the internet as
Mossgreen online
Mossgreen Auctions

See below….
Note the registration of this business name in 2016:

Name: MOSSGREEN AUCTIONS
Registration Number:
Registered State:
Registration Date: 24/05/2016
Status: Registered
Type: Business Names

& this one too:

Name: MOSSGREEN ONLINE
Registration number:
State of registration:
Registration date: 19/05/2016
Status: Registered
Type: Business Names

JUST MY THOUGHTS.
GJ50

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 14:49
by Clive
capetriangle wrote:
Clive wrote:The success of their stamp auctions could not have been helped by raising the buyers' commission to 24%, which as far as I know is the highest in the country.

Plus the increasingly buyer-gouging add ons which seem to be so common.

Clive
When I spoke to Torsten in September, he told me that the 24% was for one sale only, the result of having two departments involved and that it was now 20%.

Richard
Richard,

Then they should change the information on their website.

And even if it was just the one sale, why the need to gouge buyers to that extent?

Clive

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 15:11
by Lakatoi 4
Clive wrote: And even if it was just the one sale, why the need to gouge buyers to that extent?

Clive
One word - overheads :idea:

Too many overheads and too delayed cost slashing when things inevitably start to turn against them has been the downfall of many companies.

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 15:26
by BigSaint
Clive

It appears 24% wasn't enough to pay their bills.

Brad

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 15:27
by Kevin Morgan
Regardless of any press release you may see, there are many rumours which include:

All staff, excluding directors told at 4pm on Thursday that their services were no longer required.

A new company was formed in August under the name Ivanhoe Pty Ltd

I cannot confirm the above at present

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 15:51
by Global Administrator
The last mossgreen sale I bid on was this month - December.

As pointed out above Charles Leski flew some of the lots to Sydney in a entertaining cocktail drinks party setting, and the sale had a lovely Kingsford Smith signed flight cover etc, and letters to KGV and KGVI to our Prime Minister etc. Wonderful pieces.

https://www.mossgreen.com.au/content/event/australian-history-4/

Many collectors clearly are incapable of doing basic Math, when wording out WHAT Buyer Fees they will pay.

Had I bought the Smithy Flight cover etc, or the Walter Burley Griffin designed chair Margo wanted for her birthday, the invoice would have said -

https://www.mossgreen.com.au/content/wp-content/uploads/2017/ ... A4_v11.pdf
Image
For a $1,000 bid the mossgreen invoice will have been =

$1,000 plus 24% Commission plus 10% GST on that 24% = 2.4% more = 26.4%, plus 3% to pay by Amex, = near 30% added to actual invoice cost, BEFORE the usually obscene packing and posting fees etc were added.

And by OBSCENE, I mean truly OBSCENE. My last purchase from mossgreen Melbourne a few months back was ONE carton. I was cheerfully told shipping would be $262.90.

When I suggested someone used SOME brains in there, and ACTUALLY worked out real post, I was cheerfully re-invoiced at about $75 plus 10% GST. When I pointed out the PO real cost for fully tracked mail was about $40 they re-invoiced again. This consumed a half hour of my time, that I will never get back again.

I post 100s of parcels domestically a month. If they tried this stunt on with me, GAWD know how the poor collectors are treated and abused. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Many collectors weirdly seem to blissfully assume this ~30% extra, plus obscene shipping costs are magically not there. :roll: :roll: :roll:

No matter how often this is pointed out, they keep posting "this lot cost me $1000". No it did not - it cost you more like $1,300. :idea:

That is WHY I insist that members quoting Auction realisations here do so, showing INVOICE prices, and not Hammer Prices, which are totally misleading. From ANY Auction, anywhere.

Glen

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 16:04
by ebayer
Kevin Morgan wrote: A new company was formed in August under the name Ivanhoe Pty Ltd
Someone here with access to company registrations data might be able to add to this info?

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 16:20
by Michael Eastick
Just had a quick chat with Torsten and received the following in an email from him.


"Mossgreen has chosen to take a path of voluntary administration during the month of January at a time that will least impact our clients and which will allow the company to re-structure its business.

The company is looking forward to a very strong calendar of auction-sales that are contracted and already catalogued for the first half of 2018, starting in February.

No vendors will lose any money in this process and neither will any of our staff, who will also be fully supported through this process.

The company has an excellent reputation and this will be protected right through this process and going forward.

We forward to a very good year ahead in 2018 and we thank our loyal clients for their understanding and continued support.

Paul Sumner
Chief Executive Officer
926-930 High Street
Armadale Melbourne Victoria 3143
03 9508 8888"

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 16:46
by Global Administrator
Michael Eastick wrote: Just had a quick chat with Torsten and received the following in an email from him.

..... No vendors will lose any money in this process
Michael, Torsten sent me this hours back, and I asked him or mossgreen to post it here. As I was not going to be stupid enough to post that dream statement with MY name on it. But annoyingly he has instead asked others to do so - he sent it to you and Kevin Morgan and I, instead of posting it OFFICIALLY from mossgreen.

Anyone who believes "No vendors will lose any money in this process" is a gullible fool IMHO. And I suspect some wealthy mossgreen vendors might be chasing Paul Sumner down the track via the courts for that claim. You too now probably, for "publishing" it. :idea:

Danny Jurd from Velvet/Gibbons/Mowbrays promised folks here "any outstanding amounts have now been resolved" which was a total lie of course, and they of course got basically zippo in the final wash - to refresh the minds of the gullible out there -

http://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=68129
Danny Jurd wrote:All the best to all for 2016. Firstly the matter, and any outstanding amounts has now been resolved.
"Those that do not learn lessons from History are doomed to repeat them."

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 16:59
by Allanswood
Why would anybody go into voluntary administration if nothing is wrong, and no one will be affected or out of pocket?

If there is a "problem" with keeping the business name, then change it and let everyone know the new name.

Mossgreen was on the news just the other week showing off the Sydney Morning Herald photo archives auction - national news item.

They were at the point of having an auction about every 3rd day!

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 17:10
by Global Administrator
Michael Eastick wrote: The company is looking forward to a very strong calendar of auction-sales that are contracted and already catalogued for the first half of 2018, starting in February.
Yeah right. :roll: :roll: :roll:

mossgreen website shows ZERO of these alleged auctions scheduled, and ZERO notice to vendors or those otherwise owed money, about this Administration, for which one needs to register almost immediately with administrators to have a say in this unfolding mess -

https://www.mossgreen.com.au/content/forthcoming-auctions/

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 17:38
by deebee444
The calendar on their website shows this for February,

https://www.mossgreen.com.au/content/auction-calendar/

A Private Collection Of English Furniture And International Decorative Arts – Part I
Feb 5 all-day
FEB
6
Tue
2018
Coins Online
Feb 6 all-day
The Collection of Dr. Robert Wilson

FEB
14 Wed 2018
Automotive – Featured the Estate of the late Geoff Deacon

26 FEB 2018
Stamps & Postal History
Stamps and Postal History Online

27 FEB 2018
Coins, Medals & Banknotes
The Pemberton Collection


deebee444

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 19:33
by BigSaint
ebayer wrote:
Kevin Morgan wrote: A new company was formed in August under the name Ivanhoe Pty Ltd
Someone here with access to company registrations data might be able to add to this info?
If a new company was registered it was not called Ivanhoe Pty Ltd. That is a WA company & has been registered since 1994:

Name: IVANHOE PTY. LTD.
ACN: 067 314 532
Registration date: 28/11/1994
Next review date: 28/11/2018
Status: Registered
Type: Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares
Locality of registered office: PERTH WA 6000
Regulator: Australian Securities & Investments Commission

Brad

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 20:45
by BigSaint
So according to Australian Securities & Investment Commission (ASIC) Mossgreen Pty Ltd commenced in 2013:

MOSSGREEN PTY LTD ACN 163 353 053

Company Summary

Name: MOSSGREEN PTY LTD
ACN: 163 353 053
ABN: 49 163 353 053 (External Link)
Registration date: 17/04/2013
Next review date: 17/04/2018
Former name(s): NEW MLA PTY. LTD. - not clear when changed name to Mossgreen Pty Ltd.
Status: External Administration
Type: Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares
Locality of registered office: CAMBERWELL VIC 3124
Regulator: Australian Securities & Investments Commission

The Australian Business Register (ABR) which I believe is controlled by the Australian Tax Office (ATO)

Matching names for selected states
ABN Name Type Location
49 163 353 053 Active Mossgreen Online Business Name 3143 VIC
49 163 353 053 Active MOSSGREEN PTY LTD Entity Name 3143 VIC
40 380 105 006 Active MOSSGREEN PTY. LTD. Trading Name 3182 VIC

So the ABN in red above matches the Mossgreen Pty Ltd in the original post & was registered in 2013.

So the ABN in blue is who :?:

Here is the extract:

Current details for ABN 40 380 105 006

Entity name: The Trustee for THE P & L SUMNER FAMILY TRUST
ABN status: Active from 01 Jul 2003
Entity type: Discretionary Trading Trust
Goods & Services Tax (GST): Not currently registered for GST
Main business location: VIC 3182 (St.Kilda)
Trading name(s) From
MOSSGREEN PTY. LTD. 01 Jul 2003

But according to the above Mossgreen Pty Ltd (under administration) didn't start till 2013. Was there another Mossgreen Pty Ltd :?:

ASIC shows us there were a few:

Organisations & Business Names This search provides information about organisations and business names recorded on ASIC registers.
13 results found for "Mossgreen"

Name(*indicates former name) Number Type Status Address
1 - MOSSGREEN PTY LTD ACN 163 353 053 Australian Proprietary Company Under External Administration CAMBERWELL VIC 3124

2 - MOSSGREEN PTY. LTD. ACN 009 187 099 Australian Proprietary Company Deregistered

3 - * MOSSGREEN PTY. LTD. ACN 082 775 326 Australian Proprietary Company Registered BRIGHTON VIC 3186


Number 3 seems a candidate but can't be 100% sure without a paid for Company search. It is based almost next door to St.Kilda in Brighton:

INCHMURRIN PTY LTD ACN 082 775 326

Company Summary

Name: INCHMURRIN PTY LTD ACN: 082 775 326
Registration date: 27/05/1998
Next review date: 27/05/2018
Former name(s): A.C.N. 082 775 326 PTY LTD, MOSSGREEN PTY. LTD. - not clear when it changed it's name to Inchmurrin Pty Ltd.
Status: Registered
Type: Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares
Locality of registered office: BRIGHTON VIC 3186
Regulator: Australian Securities & Investments Commission

Could Inchmurrin Pty Ltd be the Ivanhoe Pty Ltd referred to before by Kevin Morgan ? It would seem that the ABR for the P&L Sumner Family Trust might be a little out of date.

Brad :)

All of the above information is freely available from the ASIC & ABR websites

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 22:55
by GJ50
Allanswood wrote:Why would anybody go into voluntary administration if nothing is wrong, and no one will be affected or out of pocket?
This is quite common actually. I am in the process of doing this with one of my family companies as all directors changed and the old "shell" is no longer required. A Voluntary liquidation can cost as little as $300. Need to do just what this Mossgreen P/L is doing, if it is in a "shell" situation.
GJ50

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 23 Dec 2017 23:32
by BigSaint
GJ50 wrote:
Allanswood wrote:Why would anybody go into voluntary administration if nothing is wrong, and no one will be affected or out of pocket?
This is quite common actually. I am in the process of doing this with one of my family companies as all directors changed and the old "shell" is no longer required. A Voluntary liquidation can cost as little as $300. Need to do just what this Mossgreen P/L is doing, if it is in a "shell" situation.
GJ50
Gary

I agree with your comment until I read this one from Kevin Morgan:
Kevin Morgan wrote:Regardless of any press release you may see, there are many rumours which include:

All staff, excluding directors told at 4pm on Thursday that their services were no longer required.

A new company was formed in August under the name Ivanhoe Pty Ltd

I cannot confirm the above at present
Brad :)

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 24 Dec 2017 05:04
by gregbear61
The below is ASIC's handy guide as to what to expect from the Voluntary Administration process that Moss Green have entered into. (They are moving into step 2 below.)

http://asic.gov.au/regulatory-resources/insolvency/insolvenc ... creditors/

The purpose of voluntary administration

Voluntary administration is designed to resolve a company’s future direction quickly (the below table summarises the process). An independent and suitably qualified person (the voluntary administrator) takes full control of the company to try to work out a way to save either the company or its business.

If it isn’t possible to save the company or its business, the aim is to administer the affairs of the company in a way that results in a better return to creditors than they would have received if the company had instead been placed straight into liquidation. A mechanism for achieving these aims is a deed of company arrangement.

A voluntary administrator is usually appointed by a company’s directors, after they decide that the company is insolvent or likely to become insolvent. Less commonly, a voluntary administrator may be appointed by a liquidator, provisional liquidator, or a secured creditor.

The voluntary administration process

1. Appointment of voluntary administrator

A decision to appoint a voluntary administrator for a company can be made by:
- the directors (by resolution of the board and in writing)
- a secured creditor (with a security interest in all or substantially all of the company’s property), or
- a liquidator (or provisional liquidator).
Voluntary administration begins on the appointment of the voluntary administrator.

2. First meeting of creditors


The voluntary administrator must hold the first meeting of creditors within eight business days of being appointed, unless the court allows an extension of time.

At least five business days notice of the meeting must be given to creditors.

Creditors can vote at this meeting to:
- replace the administrator, and/or
- create a committee of inspection.

3. Voluntary administrator’s investigation and report

The voluntary administrator must investigate the company’s affairs and report to creditors on alternatives.

4. Second meeting of creditors – meeting to decide company’s future

The voluntary administrator must hold the meeting to decide the company’s future within 25 business days of being appointed (or 30 business days if the appointment is around Christmas or Easter), unless the court allows an extension of time.

At least five business days notice of the meeting must be given to creditors.

Creditors can decide at this meeting to:
- return the company to the control of the directors
- accept a deed of company arrangement (the deed must be signed by the company within 15 business days following the meeting,
unless the court allows an extension of time), or
- put the company into liquidation (this happens immediately, and the administrator becomes the liquidator).

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 24 Dec 2017 06:42
by Global Administrator
GJ50 wrote:
Allanswood wrote:Why would anybody go into voluntary administration if nothing is wrong, and no one will be affected or out of pocket?
This is quite common actually.
COMMON ???????

For a huge Public Auction Business that Victoria LAW enforces no 'Trust Accounts' upon, as far as I am aware ?? You are kidding right ??? ASIC do not seen to share your VERY dangerously nonchalant view.

My feeing is mossgreen are in HUGE trouble, or this week's events would not have taken place. My inside info is many senior staffers there had ZERO idea this was in the wind, as recently as a few days back. :idea:

I am glad I auction NOTHING. :idea:
ASIC wrote:
A voluntary administrator is usually appointed by a company’s directors, after they decide that the company is insolvent or likely to become insolvent. Less commonly, a voluntary administrator may be appointed by a liquidator, provisional liquidator, or a secured creditor.

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 24 Dec 2017 14:36
by Lakatoi 4
BigSaint wrote:
ebayer wrote:
Kevin Morgan wrote: A new company was formed in August under the name Ivanhoe Pty Ltd
Someone here with access to company registrations data might be able to add to this info?
If a new company was registered it was not called Ivanhoe Pty Ltd. That is a WA company & has been registered since 1994:

Name: IVANHOE PTY. LTD.
ACN: 067 314 532
Registration date: 28/11/1994
Next review date: 28/11/2018
Status: Registered
Type: Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares
Locality of registered office: PERTH WA 6000
Regulator: Australian Securities & Investments Commission

Brad
Brad,

The company was actually Ivanhoe Trading Pty.Ltd. and its registered address is Brighton, Vic.

Name: IVANHOE TRADING PTY LTD
ACN: 006 237 485
ABN: 69 006 237 485(External Link)
Previous state number: C0223677H
Previous state of registration: Victoria
Registration date: 8/02/1984
Next review date: 8/02/2018
Former name(s): MOSSGREEN GALLERY PTY LTD, JONAD PTY. LTD.
Status: Registered
Type: Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares
Locality of registered office: BRIGHTON VIC 3186
Regulator: Australian Securities & Investments Commission

Also there are two companies with the name Mossgreen Pty. Ltd. The other one appears to have a subtle difference in the name as it doesn't have the full stops after Pty. Ltd., so its Mossgreen Pty Ltd

There are various business names registered in the Inchmurren/Mossgreen "stable" and I suspect there are quite a maze of companies overall as well as trust funds (not that this is that unusual with company structures).

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 24 Dec 2017 15:54
by BigSaint
Good work Tony.

According to the ABR the name changed from Mossgreen Gallery Pty Ltd to Ivanhoe Trading Pty Ltd in June 2013. So perhaps not the one we need.

There could be another "Ivanhoe something" as there are 1136 Ivanhoe's on the ABR. ASIC is making it harder to do "wildcard" searches, so harder to look for candidates.

I can understand why Gary Watson might put "Ivanhoe" in a company name but what is Paul Sumner's affiliation with Ivanhoe?

I am happy to accept this was some sort of restructuring, perhaps to get rid of a company that might have some past sins. However if all the employees are told to go then it has to be more than that.

The Mossgreen website shows "The Team" of which there are 23 directors, managers & specialists. Would they average $100,000 pa in salaries? Then there are the workers too. Mossgreen's annual payroll could be somewhere around $3,000,000, which would be $250,000 per month. That is a lot of stuff to sell just to pay the wages & that is not taking the rent into account which is about $10,000 per week.

The question to ask now is, does Mossgreen owe any of our members or have payments due to them been unnecessarily delayed? This was the situation when Velvet went under earlier this year when one member sought advice here.

Brad

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 24 Dec 2017 16:26
by bazza4338
https://property.cbre.com.au/properties/926-930-high-street-armadale-vic-3143/

Image

Image

Image


A PREMIER TENANT IN A BLUE CHIP LOCATION THAT WILL STAND THE TEST OF TIME

CBRE Melbourne Strip Retail Investments are proud to present to the market, 'Mossgreen' 926-930 High Street, Armadale being offered for sale via International Expressions Of Interest closing Wednesday 28th June 2017 at 5:00pm.

- A classic and striking 2-storey retail building with more than 20 metres* of High Street frontage and additional rear land for car parking plus future development

- High quality 1,400sqm* building having recently undergone major refurbishment, providing strong depreciation tax benefits

- Extremely rare 12 year net lease to Australia’s leading international auction house ‘Mossgreen’, including popular tea rooms and gallery spaces

- Strategically positioned 1,221sqm* double fronted
land holding adjoining Armadale Train Station, at the heart of Melbourne’s most affluent suburbs including Armadale, Toorak and Malvern (all $2m+ median house prices)

- Annual income of $481,960 per annum* as at September 2017) with favourable 3.5% rental increases every year, plus the benefit of a mid-term market review in 2020

*approx

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 24 Dec 2017 17:10
by traralgon3844
That expression of interest for the property closed mid year and it still appears to be on the market.

Here is the sale history for the premises.
Image
Image
https://www.domain.com.au/property-profile/935-high-street-armadale-vic-3143

The premises over the road where they had their stamp auctions was last sold in 1987.
Image
https://www.domain.com.au/property-profile/935-high-street-armadale-vic-3143

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 24 Dec 2017 19:03
by Global Administrator
Paul .. a lot their property tap dancing was reported here in September - stampboards ALWAYS has he news FIRST!
Global Administrator in SEPTEMBER wrote:Changes at the very top at mossgreen auctions Melbourne

Most readers will be aware of this auction company. Charles Leski Auctions merged into mossgreen some years back. Followed a couple of years later by major Australian stamp auction, Gary Watson’s Prestige Philately, and Nick Anning moved across with him. And in the past year or 2, also Torsten Weller’s postal history business.

All 4 well known identities actively work for the mossgreen company, although from what I can see, Leski has no direct connection with the stamp area these days.

Mossgreen were also in the fine arts auction business and there are regular sales.

They conducted a very well run, and very well publicised and patronised sale of the Arthur Gray “KGV” material a year or so back. Myself and many others flew in for the first sale, and it invoiced for about $A3 million - a record for any stamp auction in this country. Just beating out Phoenix’s superb offering of the Stuart Hardy Kangaroos from May 2013.

I took this photo of Charles Leski (left) and Gary Watson outside the viewing rooms.
Image
The mossgreen website until last month showed Jack Gringlas as Chairman of mossgreen, and Charles Leski as Deputy Chairman -

https://web.archive.org/web/20170714193321/https://www.mossg ... directors/

Both names are absent now on the website.

The 'Australian Financial Review' reported on August 30 -

Mossgreen is now understood to have parted company with its chairman and major financial backer, billionaire Jack Gringlas.

As reported in these pages, it has in recent times reduced staff after moving into the stamp business, and spreading its operations to New Zealand.


https://www.afr.com/lifestyle/arts-and-entertainment/art/two- ... 830-gy6xy3

The same newspaper reported earlier in August –

"Mossgreen is shedding more than a dozen staff and has sold its premises, but chief executive Paul Sumner says it is business as usual at the Melbourne-based auction house, which continues to line up sales at a frenetic pace.

Sumner says the staff restructure reflects the firm's increasing focus on single-owner collections and higher value lots following its expansion in recent years - including the merger with the Charles Leski stamp auction group in 2013, and the takeover of New Zealand's Webb's last year.

He says the job-shedding involves mainly internal support staff, though one specialist left of his own accord.

As for the sale of its premises, a refurbished cinema in Armadale that was once the home of Sotheby's, Sumner says the firm leases the building, as it does all its premises. "The new owner is someone we know well," he says.


https://www.afr.com/lifestyle/arts-and-entertainment/art/moss ... 802-gxnjgz

The AFR also published August 23 that a well-known person to many collectors and members here had left mossgreen –

"It was recently announced that Max Williamson, long-time sports specialist with Charles Leski Auctions, then with Mossgreen after the Leski merger, has now joined Leonard Joel in Melbourne.

This shows that sports memorabilia is now one of the most competitive categories on the secondary market.

"I am thrilled that Max Williamson, easily the acknowledged leading Australian expert in the sporting memorabilia area, has joined Leonard Joel," says managing director John Albrecht.

There are surprisingly few experts in this area. Over the past few decades Williamson has tapped into the tight network of collectors, which means they tend to approach him first.

"Every morning I sit down in front of the computer and go through my emails," he says. "Most are asking me the same thing … 'what's it worth?'
"

https://www.afr.com/lifestyle/arts-and-entertainment/art/spor ... 823-gy24l1

I understand that many millions had been spent in recent times on the large mossgreen complex in trendy inner city ‘Antiques Alley’ Armadale. Whether Jack Gringlas owned it I am not sure, but I assumed he did. It used to be the Sotheby’s offices.

Gringlas is a Billionaire according to the AFR above, and clearly has deep pockets. He is a very active stamp collector, and I imagine that is why he was keen to see a strong stamp operation merge in to the mossgreen Fine Arts umbrella. Good to see!

I suggested to he and Charles when in Melbourne that buying Stanley Gibbons might be an idea to look into. He was not keen - “I like auctioning things, not buying companies with fixed stocks” and I can see it really was not a fit for the operation. In hindsight rather wise, as the SG share price has slumped further in the interim – sadly. :(

Who actually owns mossgreen now, I honestly do not know, or whether they are as keen about stamps as Gringlas was. Leski, Watson, Weller and Anning are all still in situ there as far as I can see, and let’s hope things stay that way. :mrgreen:

Glen

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 24 Dec 2017 19:27
by traralgon3844
Sometimes sales of properties and equipment are to do with getting assets out of the company with the most liability. I know someone who transfers equipment out of the trading company as soon as it is paid off. His mum has a a bit of gear she doesn't know how to use. .

If the company goes pearshaped through no fault of his own, he can still make a living.

You don't know who the property was sold to, but it was someone they know well :?

The murky world of trusts, companies, holding entities etc sometimes leave a lot to be desired when things go pearshaped. Owners and directors and the like seen to be able to carry on living the high life on velvet cushions while the creditors get screwed.

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 24 Dec 2017 19:39
by BigSaint
traralgon3844 wrote:Sometimes sales of properties and equipment are to do with getting assets out of the company with the most liability. I know someone who transfers equipment out of the trading company as soon as it is paid off. His mum has a a bit of gear she doesn't know how to use. .

If the company goes pearshaped through no fault of his own, he can still make a living.

You don't know who the property was sold to, but it was someone they know well :?

The murky world of trusts, companies, holding entities etc sometimes leave a lot to be desired when things go pearshaped. Owners and directors and the like seen to be able to carry on living the high life on velvet cushions while the creditors get screwed.
No one receiving good legal, tax & accounting advice puts "property" in their trading company. It is too much risk.

It should be owned by a separate company who charges the trading company a rent.

So it shouldn't be Mossgreen trying to sell, instead it will be one of the other mysterious entities in the Mossgreen Group doing that task.

Perhaps one of those "Ivanhoes" :idea:

Brad :)

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 25 Dec 2017 03:26
by Global Administrator
The sneaky thing about mossgreen pulling this kind of sneaky stunt on basically the last working day of the year for most, is that the Arts and Media reporters did not hear about it, not a word written about it - except here on stampboards -

https://www.google.com/search?q=mossgreen+auctions&newwindow ... 66&bih=635

The Mossgreen Auction Empire had closed down until Mid January as this was announced by ASIC and you can bet paul.sumner@mossgreen.com.au will not be responding to any media enquires on this. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 25 Dec 2017 09:05
by erich
How can they go broke charging buyers ~30% fees plus whatever they take from the seller? They very cagily do not say what percentage the seller pays to them, but I'm sure it is significant.

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 25 Dec 2017 09:15
by BigSaint
erich wrote:How can they go broke charging buyers ~30% fees plus whatever they take from the seller? They very cagily do not say what percentage the seller pays to them, but I'm sure it is significant.
x= income, y = expenses & p = profit.

therefore

x - y = p

if y = 2x.

then

x - 2x = p

or

x - 2x = -x

so

p = -x.

i.e. they spend more than they make.

:roll:

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 25 Dec 2017 09:34
by Graeme
24%
how did this happen!

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 25 Dec 2017 12:33
by aethelwulf
Graeme wrote:24%
how did this happen!
It was stated earlier in this thread, that that was a one-off; the BP had to be increased for that sale, "because 2 departments were involved"...sounds like a bit of a lame excuse.

Meanwhile, the big international houses run at 25% for most lots (dropping to 20% when you're over $250,000 USD, and then to 'only' 12%-12.5% once you're into the millions of dollars hammer). But then, Christie's, Sotheby's et al have massive office space in prime CBD locations, and then there's the advert budget, and catalogues....

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 25 Dec 2017 12:36
by Kevin Morgan
Based on my experience in the Auction business:

Let's take an average $1m sale... and assume they sell 75% of that = $750,000 Gross

Commission at 24% is another $180,000
Vendor commission varies between nil and 19.5% so say 15% as an average = $112,500

So gross profit ignoring packaging & GST = $292,500

They print and distribute 1,000 catalogues at a cost of $10 each plus postage of $5 each to 900 Australian Clients plus 100 overseas clients at $16.50 each $16,150

Rent is $450,000 p.a. so assuming 26 sales per year = around $17,250

Advertising & Promotion Industry Norm. is around 4% of turnover = $30,000

Staffing would be around 20% of turnover = $150,000

Other costs such as vehicles, rates electricity would take care of $100,000 pa easily, divided by 26 = approx $3850

23 directors on average $200k each (very conservative in today's terms when IT professionals are on $250 -$300K ) divided by 26 = $175,000 approx.

So total costs for this assumed auction would be about $465,000

A loss of $172,500

I do not know what their turnover has been, but even at $52M they would only turn a profit of $2.6M before GST & company tax. Or about 5%, which is an average dividend for most large companies.

Re: Mossgreen Auctions - APPOINTMENT & 1st MEETING OF CREDI

Posted: 25 Dec 2017 13:11
by dukeprince
Kevin Morgan wrote:Based on my experience in the Auction business:

Let's take an average $1m sale... and assume they sell 75% of that = $750,000 Gross

Commission at 24% is another $180,000
Vendor commission varies between nil and 19.5% so say 15% as an average = $112,500

So gross profit ignoring packaging & GST = $292,500

They print and distribute 1,000 catalogues at a cost of $10 each plus postage of $5 each to 900 Australian Clients plus 100 overseas clients at $16.50 each $16,150

Rent is $450,000 p.a. so assuming 26 sales per year = around $17,250

Advertising & Promotion Industry Norm. is around 4% of turnover = $30,000

Staffing would be around 20% of turnover = $150,000

Other costs such as vehicles, rates electricity would take care of $100,000 pa easily, divided by 26 = approx $3850

23 directors on average $200k each (very conservative in today's terms when IT professionals are on $250 -$300K ) divided by 26 = $175,000 approx.

So total costs for this assumed auction would be about $465,000

A loss of $172,500

I do not know what their turnover has been, but even at $52M they would only turn a profit of $2.6M before GST & company tax. Or about 5%, which is an average dividend for most large companies.

It seems to make Ebay look like a bargain for trading Stamps no matter how big or small the Organization from Mom and Pop to the Big Boys ?