Spink "Chartwell" Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

News items. General trends, new issues, new policies etc. **Whatever** you like. WORLDWIDE. Start a new thread on your question. Please do not discuss ebay in THIS forum as we have a separate and popular Forum for that discussion.

Moderator: Volunteer Moderator Team

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 59219
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Global Administrator »

Global Administrator wrote:
iaincraven wrote:
Do be mindful when quoting what pieces "SOLD" for, that a true picture is given.
The 5% on hammer price has been discussed already on this thread - it isn't charged on items which are exported outwith the EU so an Australia buyer will not be charged that.

And that 4% credit card charge seemed very high, but I checked and it is only 2% in their terms and conditions???
Is EVERYONE posting on this thread on the payroll of Spink? I agree their website is hopeless but IF spink marked all the lots as ''X'' Taxable and clearly indicate that involves TWO UK taxes, not sure who authorised you to broadcast that is wrong.

WHY I waste time reading things before posting is now unknown to me now, but for those that cannot read or comprehend the English language, here is a refresher course -
Image

Image

Image

Image
Bottom line, to repeat the point again, for those who failed Math and basic economics - an ozzie buyer, via credit card, of a £10,000 lot pays ~£15,000. A tad more a tad less -- who really cares - it is still around a 50% EXTRA cost versus those in Cloud Cuckoo Land who wrongly state something cost ''£10,000''.

Those waffling on about bidding live paid an EXTRA 3% of top of all these fees of course.

The CREDIT CARD bill is what all these buyers seems to never look at. FORGET ''Hammer Prices''. That is just the START point for a half dozen extra gouges. :twisted: :twisted:
Global Administrator wrote:
Monogram wrote:I just paid my invoice from Spinks paid 20% buyers premium and £25 postage in total nothing else
So Spink defrauded HM Government of their 20% VAT on the Buyer Fee?? I doubt that - their Royal Warrant might vanish pretty fast. :mrgreen:

Folks like you are EXACTLY who I highlight. You appear to have NO idea what you actually pay in fees despite posting that you do.

And you paid via credit card? If so 4% extra from Spink, and 6% real cost from your bank.

And the inward 10% GST has not yet been added. Not that any of these real world costs occur to folks like you.
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

User avatar
Monogram
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 200
Joined: 08 Mar 2012 14:33
Location: Warragul, Australia

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Monogram »

I purchased.....

Auction: 18047 - The Chartwell Collection of Australian States and Commonwealth, an unreserved auction for the benefit of the Chartwell Philanthropic Educational Programme
Lot: 529

(x) Australian Commonwealth
The Kangaroo Issues
Third Watermark
Three Pence
3d. yellow-olive Plate 1 Die II, a block of four with "CA" monogram, one short perf at top and the lower pair with a light crease which does not affect appearance, mounted in the selvedge only. BW 13(1)za, $2250+. Photo

Subject to 5% tax on Hammer Price in addition to 20% VAT on Buyer’s Premium. For more information please view Terms and Conditions for Buyers.

Sold for
£900

Was charged £1,105 in total so £900 + 20% £180 plus £25 postage

No Tax as NON EU RESIDENTS
Last edited by Monogram on 30 May 2018 01:56, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
iaincraven
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 502
Joined: 27 Jan 2008 09:45
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by iaincraven »

Do you AGREE they say credit cards incur a 4% surcharge?
I've still got their T&Cs open and it seems pretty clear that its 2%:
"5.4.3. (iii) By Visa or Mastercard. All Corporate cards regardless of origin and Consumer debit and credit cards issued outside the EU are subject to a fee of 2%."
Do you AGREE all their lots are marked ''X'' on their website as I clearly show, and Do you AGREE all their lots have a note saying that "X" incurs a 5% and 20% fee on top of 20% Buyer Fee?
While it says directly on the website the lots will incur those fees this is for EU buyers - the T&Cs make it clear an Australian buyer getting those posted out by Spink will not be charged those fees as they are related to UK VAT. However they may still have to pay Australian import duty at entry point to Australia.

"5.3.8. Where the Lot is marked as an Omega (J) Lot or an Import VAT (x) Lot and evidence of export from the EU is produced within 3 months of the date of sale, the VAT charged on both the Hammer Price and Buyer's Premium may be refunded."
You and several others here give that impression strongly that you are flag waving employees
Haha, I've just filled in my "Spink Cucumber Sandwiches claim form" [although the reference to cucumber sandwiches has gone way over my head - are they an Australian in-joke thing?]. But actually - I was reading up trying to understand if I can dodge that 5% fee by providing follow-on proof for items I then export. But I don't think I can.
BC Stamps Limited
https://www.bcstamps.co.uk

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 59219
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Global Administrator »

https://www.spink.com/auction/18047?page=24

Sigh, this is like discussing politics with my Cat.

Do you AGREE that EVERY lot in the sale was marked ''X'', and hence subject to 20% TAX on the 20% Buyer Fee -
Image

Image

User avatar
iaincraven
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 502
Joined: 27 Jan 2008 09:45
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by iaincraven »

Do you AGREE that EVERY lot in the sale was marked ''X'', and hence subject to 20% TAX on the 20% Buyer Fee -
Yes all lots were marked with an x, but this is nothing to do with VAT on buyer's premium. It means there is a 5% temporary import duty payable on hammer price - which is not charged if the lot is exported within 30 days. Exported items are not subject to the 5% import duty charge or VAT on buyer's premium, so its 20% + 0% for an Australian buyer rather than 24% + 5% for a UK buyer. This is not defrauding HMRC - its how the tax laws work in the UK. It is all there in the T&Cs - section 5.3.6. - "VAT Refunds - Buyers from outside the EU".

Monogram's post is pretty clear on what was charged to an Australia buyer.
BC Stamps Limited
https://www.bcstamps.co.uk

User avatar
norvic
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 19665
Joined: 25 Feb 2008 21:51
Location: Norfolk, England
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by norvic »

Global Administrator wrote:
iaincraven wrote:
I don't work for Spink
I do not think ANYONE works for Spink given the wide level of incompetence we see frominthere. You and several others here give that impression strongly that you are flag waving employees. The Cucumber Sandwiches will be there by courier for lunch on your desk I am sure.

Do you AGREE all their lots are marked ''X'' on their website as I clearly show, and Do you AGREE all their lots have a note saying that "X" incurs a 5% and 20% fee on top of 20% Buyer Fee? ?

Do you AGREE they say credit cards incur a 4% surcharge?

It might be they change no card fee, and buyer fee is only 2%, and no UK taxes apply, and all lots are mailed post free.

And the Moon might be made of Green Cheese. :!:
iaincraven wrote: Glen, I do understand you want to put auction figures that are as high as possible
Utter nonsense - I am simply ensuring ACCURACY here, and am simply stating the Bog Obvious, that the landed COST to a local here is ~50% higher than ''Hammer Prices'', which are meaningless with overseas sellers like Spink.
No VAT is charged on exports outside the EU. End of.
Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: https://blog.norphil.co.uk, NPhilatelics on twitter, www norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk for our e-commerce site [currently closed for the duration]

User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 1313
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by emason »

Since 13th January 2018 it has been illegal in the UK to charge a fee for processing a credit or debit card. So how can Spink still do so?
Best wishes,
Bill

User avatar
norvic
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 19665
Joined: 25 Feb 2008 21:51
Location: Norfolk, England
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by norvic »

I'd forgotten that' does it apply only to EU countries. I believe it is only Business to Consumer so B2B transactions using a company card may not escape.
Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: https://blog.norphil.co.uk, NPhilatelics on twitter, www norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk for our e-commerce site [currently closed for the duration]

User avatar
iaincraven
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 502
Joined: 27 Jan 2008 09:45
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by iaincraven »

Since 13th January 2018 it has been illegal in the UK to charge a fee for processing a credit or debit card. So how can Spink still do so?
Norvic is right - its still legal to charge a fee for accepting business / company card payments from anywhere and for personal card payments on cards issued outwith the EU. But yes personal credit / debit EU card payments cannot be surcharged. Some auction houses have taken the hit, some (including Spink) no longer accept personal EU credit card payments.

I think they can probably use the initial four card digits to filter which cards they can take.
BC Stamps Limited
https://www.bcstamps.co.uk

User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 1313
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by emason »

iaincraven wrote:
Since 13th January 2018 it has been illegal in the UK to charge a fee for processing a credit or debit card. So how can Spink still do so?
Norvic is right - its still legal to charge a fee for accepting business / company card payments from anywhere and for personal card payments on cards issued outwith the EU. But yes personal credit / debit EU card payments cannot be surcharged. Some auction houses have taken the hit, some (including Spink) no longer accept personal EU credit card payments.
They would not accept my personal debit/credit card??? Can that be true?

Is that stated in their Terms and Conditions?
Best wishes,
Bill

User avatar
iaincraven
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 502
Joined: 27 Jan 2008 09:45
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by iaincraven »

They would not accept my personal debit/credit card??? Can that be true?
Sorry, no - I've checked and was wrong, it reads a bit unclear in their terms! Looks like they would accept it fine and be no surcharge.

But some other auctions don't take personal cards now though. Spink look like they do and don't surcharge EU personal cards at all.
BC Stamps Limited
https://www.bcstamps.co.uk

User avatar
fchd
BLUE Shooting Star Posting GURU!!
BLUE Shooting Star Posting GURU!!
Posts: 956
Joined: 02 Dec 2015 08:45
Location: St Columb, UK
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by fchd »

Global Administrator wrote:Do you AGREE they say credit cards incur a 4% surcharge?
No, they say American Express is 4%, other cards 2%. American Express are a very small player compared to Visa & Mastercard.

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 59219
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Global Administrator »

fchd wrote:
Global Administrator wrote:Do you AGREE they say credit cards incur a 4% surcharge?
No, they say American Express is 4%, other cards 2%. American Express are a very small player compared to Visa & Mastercard.
Sigh.

I was asking this AUSTRALIAN buyer if he paid by any kind of credit card and if so, was he charged 4% by Spink, and near 6% by his local bank. He has twice refused to respond to that, so one presumes the answer was YES to both.

Accepting that near everything these incompetents Spink have clearly posted on their website, against EVERY Chartwell lot, is wrong or incomplete re UK taxes and VAT, and credit card fees, (or lack of them) is misleading and/or out of date, or deficient, I am delighted to hear fchd is also a Spink insider and has a Secret Terms And Conditions page that all other bidders do not see - all the peasants see is simply this mess -

https://www.spink.com/lot/18047000464
Image

Image
I'd suggest no-one with less than an advance Math degree, bidding from Australia has ZERO clue, after carefully reading the Spink T+C, exactly WHAT taxes, VAT, fees, and card fees will be relevant and added by them.
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

User avatar
jojo
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 109
Joined: 05 Dec 2015 21:47
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by jojo »

OK , OK , its messy.... I agree.
I would certainly prefer to purchase such material from a dealer, sure.
But from whom ? where? and when?

User avatar
MJ's pet
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 3320
Joined: 16 Jan 2018 11:03
Location: Australia

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by MJ's pet »

Rod Perry wrote:Spink ensure that everyone that matters receives a catalogue.

Their internet site provides full access for those who do not receive a physical catalogue.

Spink bringing the sale to Australia for viewing, I would consider an adequate gesture for the motivated buyer.

Rod
That's throwing some major shade at lots of Australian collectors and dealers.

Spink bungled this sale on quite a few fronts.

The first was location. Spink have not physically held an auction in Australia since the Australia '99 exhibition. Which was over 19 years ago. A generation ago. Many collectors in Australia have never attended a Spink sale.

Whilst they held a Chartwell viewing at the Royal of Vic, this only preaches to the converted and doesn't attract new collectors who are non-members. That was another fail.

The publicity for Chartwell in Australia was not even a blip on the radar. In contrast Siegel and Bill Gross are all over US TV and the press this year promoting the forthcoming Bill Gross auction (US$42 Million):

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/02/28/bill-gross-auctioning-rare-us-stamp-collection.html

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-07/bond-guru ... collection

The second was the adequacy of their descriptions. In very many cases an inadequate provenance was given. Often Spink had sold particular items on previous occasions, yet no provenance at all was listed. Everyone knows that a good provenance adds some dollars to the hammer price.

A conspiracy theorist might guess that Spink wanted to erase evidence of what the vendor paid (at Spink), so the "drop" on sale (at Spink) would be less obvious. :!:

Rod wrote above that Spink was a victim of timing, which I think is too charitable to Spink.

While there may be less buyers in the post-Hardy/Gray world (and that is a contestable idea), the Chartwell estate can hardly postpone the auction for months/years/decades for the arrival of new mystery buyers who may never materialise.

What Spink could control was the location of the sale and publicity surrounding it. They failed on both.

Of course, Spink have the best defence available: "there were no reserves and the market spoke on the day."

User avatar
Rod Perry
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 3888
Joined: 01 Sep 2010 11:13
Location: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

MJ's pet wrote:Rod wrote above that Spink was a victim of timing, which I think is too charitable to Spink
Rod said nothing of the sort.

What I said was:

"The principal reason for the price corrections, and there's nothing unusual in that occurrence, historically, is that the "Big buyers" have gradually diminished, and have not (as yet) been replaced.

Chartwell, in recent years, was one of the biggest of the big.

He got his timing wrong."


i.e. Chartwell "got his timing wrong".

Rod
Preserve DNA - retain covers intact. Scientists may be grateful!
Commercial covers represent “Stamps in Action”: Philately’s last Great Frontier

User avatar
tapstamp
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 126
Joined: 10 Jul 2007 12:15
Location: Mildura, Victoria, Australia

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by tapstamp »

Good Morning, as with many of MJ'Pet's comments they are not accurate.
Inferring that viewing at the Royal was only open to members of that Organisation was not correct. I spoke with Nick Startup of Spink on that weekend and he assured me that he had many non members of the Royal viewing.
Tom
Ageing stamp collector

User avatar
Rod Perry
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 3888
Joined: 01 Sep 2010 11:13
Location: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

tapstamp wrote:Good Morning, as with many of MJ'Pet's comments they are not accurate.
Inferring that viewing at the Royal was only open to members of that Organisation was not correct. I spoke with Nick Startup of Spink on that weekend and he assured me that he had many non members of the Royal viewing.
Tom
Nick mentioned to one of the Aussies present, after the Chartwell sale, Spink had two Commonwealth bidders of considerable substance bidding for the first time.

How Spink enlisted those two new bidders was not divulged, obviously.

Rod
Preserve DNA - retain covers intact. Scientists may be grateful!
Commercial covers represent “Stamps in Action”: Philately’s last Great Frontier

User avatar
norvic
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 19665
Joined: 25 Feb 2008 21:51
Location: Norfolk, England
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by norvic »

I can’t read through three pages to find if it’s been mentioned before but Spink have a video about the sale on YouTube here
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b6Gi3TX9TSc

As it only has 200+ views I guess it hasn’t been mentioned here
Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics GB stamps info: https://blog.norphil.co.uk, NPhilatelics on twitter, www norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk for our e-commerce site [currently closed for the duration]

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 59219
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Global Administrator »

norvic wrote: As it only has 200+ views I guess it hasn’t been mentioned here
Ian, yes it was highlighted here earlier when it had ~100 views. So likely half their views have come from here. :idea:

This thread has ~5,000 views, proving again those dunderheads at Spink have ZERO idea how to publicise these major sales.

Spink have recent active members here, and they did not bother to add a FREE post anywhere the sale was even taking place. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Laziness and total indifferent incompetence, and I repeat my personal view that anyone giving Spink major Australian pieces, in this day and age, versus the leading local Auctions, has rocks in their head.

User avatar
kangaroo23
Green Star Less Than 10 Posts Member
Green Star Less Than 10 Posts Member
Posts: 9
Joined: 22 Dec 2012 19:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by kangaroo23 »

Rod Perry wrote:
tapstamp wrote:Good Morning, as with many of MJ'Pet's comments they are not accurate.
Inferring that viewing at the Royal was only open to members of that Organisation was not correct. I spoke with Nick Startup of Spink on that weekend and he assured me that he had many non members of the Royal viewing.
Tom
Nick mentioned to one of the Aussies present, after the Chartwell sale, Spink had two Commonwealth bidders of considerable substance bidding for the first time.

How Spink enlisted those two new bidders was not divulged, obviously.

Rod
Rod - I heard similar from a friend who attended the auction in person. A Spink employee relayed to him after the auction that the two new bidders you are referring to were UK based buyers, however, not surprisingly, would not comment any further when pressed for more details.

User avatar
Monogram
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 200
Joined: 08 Mar 2012 14:33
Location: Warragul, Australia

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Monogram »

Stamps purchased at auction arrived today. Very well packed, excellent order

User avatar
MJ's pet
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 3320
Joined: 16 Jan 2018 11:03
Location: Australia

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by MJ's pet »

tapstamp wrote:Good Morning, as with many of MJ'Pet's comments they are not accurate.

Inferring that viewing at the Royal was only open to members of that Organisation was not correct. I spoke with Nick Startup of Spink on that weekend and he assured me that he had many non members of the Royal viewing.

Tom
This if of course self-serving rubbish.

RPSV (who tapstamp is a member of) + Spink circling the wagons in the face of an unmitigated disaster auction.

How many unique viewers attended the RPSV, and how many were non-members?

We will never get a precise answer of course, other than assertions that there were "many". <cof>

On any analysis, the advance marketing of Chartwell was hopeless.

When rare Australian stamps lose two-thirds of their value over the previous sale, the auction was a certified disaster, as was the promotional viewing.

User avatar
22028
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
Posts: 1301
Joined: 02 Jun 2007 12:52
Location: Himmelstadt, Germany
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by 22028 »

MJ's pet wrote:
tapstamp wrote:Good Morning, as with many of MJ'Pet's comments they are not accurate.

Inferring that viewing at the Royal was only open to members of that Organisation was not correct. I spoke with Nick Startup of Spink on that weekend and he assured me that he had many non members of the Royal viewing.

Tom
This if of course self-serving rubbish.

RPSV (who tapstamp is a member of) + Spink circling the wagons in the face of an unmitigated disaster auction.

How many unique viewers attended the RPSV, and how many were non-members?

We will never get a precise answer of course, other than assertions that there were "many". <cof>

On any analysis, the advance marketing of Chartwell was hopeless.

When rare Australian stamps lose two-thirds of their value over the previous sale, the auction was a certified disaster, as was the promotional viewing.
Why is Spink to be blamed for the poor results? I assume that every major collector was well informed about the auction much ahead of time.

Why many Australian collectors apparently have difficulties in accepting that the prices realised earlier where inflated and the market is not the same as before?

Another member here mentioned earlier, if the prices were so low why the big Australians dealers did not bought the items and the could make millions out of the re-sale?

I remember when Boker sold his collections in Germany years ago.., high prices were realised, now you find many items again at auction at far lower prices..., well guys, this is your chance to acquire something reasonable priced. Eventually the prices will go up again...
Collecting Interests: Tibet, Nepal-Classic Issues, Iran-First Issue (Lion stamps), Iraq-Railway stamps 1928-1942, Overland Mail Baghdad - Haifa, SCADTA, the provisional Registration stamps issue 1921, Colombia, the private carrier stamps.

User avatar
Rod Perry
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 3888
Joined: 01 Sep 2010 11:13
Location: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

MJ's pet wrote:
When rare Australian stamps lose two-thirds of their value over the previous sale, the auction was a certified disaster, as was the promotional viewing.
There has been a "disaster".

That disaster was the irrational exuberance of a few post-GFC Australian Commonwealth buyers (yes, the GFC did affect Philately).

Rod
Preserve DNA - retain covers intact. Scientists may be grateful!
Commercial covers represent “Stamps in Action”: Philately’s last Great Frontier

User avatar
GJ50
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 3101
Joined: 14 Jul 2007 14:17
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by GJ50 »

22028 wrote:
Another member here mentioned earlier, if the prices were so low why the big Australians dealers did not bought the items and the could make millions out of the re-sale?

yes, agree and some were there in London at the auction. Could have easily bought them for resale.
NZ2020 FIAP INTERNATIONAL STAMP EXHIBITION
Auckland
March 19 to 22, 2020

User avatar
Rod Perry
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 3888
Joined: 01 Sep 2010 11:13
Location: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

GJ50 wrote:
22028 wrote:
Another member here mentioned earlier, if the prices were so low why the big Australians dealers did not bought the items and the could make millions out of the re-sale?

yes, agree and some were there in London at the auction. Could have easily bought them for resale.
And the report from those present at the sale, for purpose of buying for resale?

I quote: "Slim pickin's".

Just because some items sold for a lot less than their previous realisation does not necessarily make them a "good buy", from a reseller's perspective.

There needs to be at least one willing buyer for a "good buy" to materialize in to a profit.

Rod
Preserve DNA - retain covers intact. Scientists may be grateful!
Commercial covers represent “Stamps in Action”: Philately’s last Great Frontier

User avatar
Tassie_Stamps
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
Posts: 9697
Joined: 06 Oct 2007 21:19
Location: Tasmania

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Tassie_Stamps »

Rod Perry wrote:Spink ensure that everyone that matters receives a catalogue.
Condescending, to the extreme, Rod.

I guess some of the Australian collectors I know with plenty of money to splash on rare stamps do not 'matter' ... A shame, as a few of them making some bids may have made for a more successful sale.

£2 die proof in purple:

2018 Result £11,000
2013 Result AU$72,500

So on this one item, a loss of A$53,500 in just a few years before taking into account fees.

I suppose you think this is a good result? As Spink are so wonderful at marketing this rarity sale to their small base of people who 'matter'. :roll:

User avatar
billw2
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
Posts: 2192
Joined: 02 Nov 2010 08:51
Location: Alpine, New Jersey, USA

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by billw2 »

Tassie_Stamps wrote:
Rod Perry wrote:Spink ensure that everyone that matters receives a catalogue.
Condescending, to the extreme, Rod.

I guess some of the Australian collectors I know with plenty of money to splash on rare stamps do not 'matter' ... A shame, as a few of them making some bids may have made for a more successful sale.

£2 die proof in purple:

2018 Result £11,000
2013 Result AU$72,500

So on this one item, a loss of A$53,500 in just a few years before taking into account fees.

I suppose you think this is a good result? As Spink are so wonderful at marketing this rarity sale to their small base of people who 'matter'. :roll:
I think that the market conditions changing has a bigger bearing on prices than Spink supposedly screwing this sale up.

Collectors find material, and I'll bet that any serious collector of this type of stuff knew darn well that this sale was going on and I am also further convinced that nobody said "Gee, they had the lot viewing in the RPSV and I am not a member so I am not going to bid on that unique item that I need for my collection".

Absolute nonsense.

We've seen this happen numerous times with all sorts of collectibles before. Heck, look at Inverted Jenny prices over here correcting a few years ago when Bill Gross decided to stop pursuing them.

User avatar
Rod Perry
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 3888
Joined: 01 Sep 2010 11:13
Location: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

Tassie_Stamps wrote:
Rod Perry wrote:Spink ensure that everyone that matters receives a catalogue.
Condescending, to the extreme, Rod.

I guess some of the Australian collectors I know with plenty of money to splash on rare stamps do not 'matter' ... A shame, as a few of them making some bids may have made for a more successful sale.

£2 die proof in purple:

2018 Result £11,000
2013 Result AU$72,500

So on this one item, a loss of A$53,500 in just a few years before taking into account fees.

I suppose you think this is a good result? As Spink are so wonderful at marketing this rarity sale to their small base of people who 'matter'. :roll:
Yes, the Kangaroo £2 Die proofs were remarkably good value, given their importance.

However, the appetite for Essays and Proofs, since the passing of Arthur Gray, has systematically diminished to 1970s levels, as the few other adherents have also passed, or retired from collecting.

The five best known encumbent Australian Commonwealth buyers, those of considerable means to indulge, participated in Chartwell, I'm reliably informed. Essays/Proofs are generally not the forte of this band.

Given their recalcitrance towards such material, I would have recommended the £2 Die proofs as a "buy", if I had a party interested in being a buyer.

Rod
Preserve DNA - retain covers intact. Scientists may be grateful!
Commercial covers represent “Stamps in Action”: Philately’s last Great Frontier

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 59219
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Global Administrator »

billw2 wrote:I'll bet that any serious collector of this type of stuff knew darn well that this sale was going on
Yet another bet you lost Bill. :idea:

You do not collect Australia, and you do not live here, and have ZERO clue who here buys what, or WHAT they knew. But as usual, you are a self-professed "Expert" on such matters from 10,000 miles away. :roll: :roll: :roll:

I know you are so busy getting your common American stamps numerically graded "98", that you doubtless have not had time to READ all this thread, before offering your nonsensical, and totally incorrect view.

So I repeat Bill, as you clearly were not reading, there were MANY serious collectors of this material who did not have a CLUE this sale was taking place. The Doctor outlined below, for one, who can write cheques for 6 figures at will. Does not live in Victoria and is not a member of RPSV, and never knew the sale was taking place, and never saw a catalogue. FACT.

Phoenix or Abacus I suggest again, would have obtained FAR higher prices. Why? As both have the brains to ADVERTISE in advance, such major sales to the collectors in this country. Our Doctor gets "Stamp News", each month, and ditto for MANY other serious buyers, who Spink have never heard of.

Spink did not get to them - not a stamp magazine ad to be seen here. Not a single post from Spink here showing highlights, or advising sale date etc - and they are members. THAT costs them ZERO. Too lazy, and too incompetent, and too disinterested. The record clearly shows that.

The often appalling Chartwell results were a sad aberration, that do not reflect the real marketplace here.

Allan Grant from Rushstamps UK MADE A MILLION DOLLARS PROFIT buying China stamps at a UK auction, and sending them direct to the CORRECT place to sell them - Hong Kong. Does that mean China stamp prices are stuffed? Nope, it shows the original vendors were idiots. The REAL cashed-up buyers had no idea of the original offering.

The material did not NEED to be offered here of course. Charles Shreve in New York showed just how well it could be done, when offering the Arthur Gray Kangaroos - which invoiced for $A7,125,000. HE was savvy, beat the drum widely, ran ads here, supplied all concerned with great scans and advance info, and the sale was an absolute roaring world record success.

Local BUYERS would have got far more bang for their buck if offered here - no UK VAT to pay, no insane Spink credit card gouges, and no inward 10% GST on the goods.

Spink have proven in recent times to be often incompetent when offering Australia stamps. They might be terrific for classic GB, but we are not discussing that area. Spink FLOPPED when recently offering the superb Gray Gold Medal winning QE2 Collection, and the equally superb Arthur Gray Stamp Booklet collection.

Appalling results for both. Why? As they did not advertise either in the local stamp magazines, or promote them here on stampboards etc. Did they LEARN from these disasters on how to maximise the Chartwell results? Clearly NOT.

I have the wonderful luxury at my time of career, to CHOOSE whom I do business with. I choose not to give one cent to Spink, as in life I do not reward incompetence with my business, and my dollars. I do not "NEED"" any specific item. I buy what I choose.

Could I have made a good profit on the unissued KGV proofs below, and other such flops at Spink Chartwell - of course I could. I was planning to bid on them at mossgreen at the much higher level if no other bids emerged, but was sitting next to David Wood! (Phoenix bought them for Cripps/Chartwell.) They are plenty of buyers for such top end material at WAY over what Spink eked out of them. Good luck to whomever bought them. Savvy buying. :mrgreen:

I sent a Swift transfer today for $A45,000 today to another overseas Auction who are less incompetent than Spink, with savvy marketing. Spink's loss. 20% fees on $45,000 is $9000 of fees foregone forever. That pays for lots of Cucumber Sandwiches and Pimms and Lemonade.

I repeat again - I'd have gladly paid the Gray family MUCH more than they got from Spink for the Australia Booklets, and bought them ALL - many of which incredibly were unsold on sale day, even at the silly low estimates. Cheque on the spot, no delays, no gouges, no "insurance" fees, no fees, no UNCERTAINTY, no UK VAT taxes etc.

Arthur will doubtless be looking down saying some terrible things about his QE2 and Booklets disaster sales, and there would be many choice 4 letter words among them. :idea:
Global Administrator wrote:
Tom,

Spink got FAR less for some superb pieces, than Phoenix or other locally plugged in Auctions would have easily obtained in my view. Not just for the Hugh Morgan material you were so involved with, but the superb ex Hardy and ex Gray material, and trust me, that is the view of MANY other savvy buyers here.

The recent Spink stamp flops do not represent the real stamp marketplace here I'd suggest, and are an aberration. The less said about this result the better, as it does not reflect the real market here. I mentally pretend they do not exist, and do not lose any sleep over that decision. :mrgreen:

If Phoenix ran it all next week, many Spink cheerleaders would be gobsmacked I'd suggest, at the strong results it would get locally. The FACTS are that plenty of cashed up folks did not know about it, or because it was Spink offering it, simply did not bother getting involved - me for starters. At my stage in career I can CHOOSE who I support in this business. A lovely position to be in. I do not "need" any specific stamps in my life or stock.

I was an under-bidder on the large £2 Roo block shown above, and the even better looking 10/- large Mint Roo part sheet at Hardy sale, and as I typed at the time, was a real gem of the sale in my view.

Tom, in the superb material you and Hugh Morgan were involved in a few years back, there was a BUZZ for months ahead. Ads in local stamp magazines (what a NOVEL idea!) and press stories etc. I did many radio interviews nationally on that upcoming Spink sale for ABC news etc. THAT got you lot of serious bidders, who had never heard of Spink. None of that occurred for the Chartwell sale that I heard or saw, and Spink have clearly taken their eye off the ball - IMHO.
Image

Image
The superb image from Phoenix HARDY, and the lower than ebay standard washed out image from the Spink cruddy website are above. I'll let you decide which is which. 8) 8) 8)

I recall halfway during the Hardy Kangaroo sale that David Wood phoned me to tell me excitedly the £1 sideways watermark Roo OS above had just been invoiced (to Chartwell we now know) for $A233,000. Hand the SAME stamp to Spink, and they get £45,000 Hammer - STUNNING marketing. :roll:

https://www.spink.com/lot/18047000623

I asked David why he was phoning me, if the huge sale was in full progress, and he said he was excited by this world record figure, and that only a couple of dozen lots were unsold from the sale to that point.

I said to him, whatever those lots are, I will buy them, and I'd collect them in person tomorrow at Australia 2013. David was pretty shocked, and said "But you do not know what they are, and how much they will cost". I said that did not matter, as Mark Knothe had described them all, and the descriptions would be 100% accurate. So before the sale finished, Phoenix could proudly claim to the room the massive Hardy sale was a 100% sell-out. A FIRST in Australia for a major stamp sale. MULTI Millions in invoices.

Next day, and I had not even taken them out of the auction cards, as the Phoenix staff had handed them over to me just 5 minutes before. I was idly flipping through the auction cards, when a client walked by with his wife and saw them, and offered to buy them all - sight unseen, and he did just that.

He is a keen Kangaroo collector, and knew this material was not something he’d see again in his lifetime, indeed one 5/- “OS” Monogram item was unique - and I suspect is worth twice now what he paid. (Unless Spink offer it of course!)

A leading dealer told me that one stamp was, in his view, the howling bargain of the entire Hardy sale. I had in turn bought the material sight unseen, as I was too busy to view it beforehand.

So the material went from the Hardy collection pages, to me, to my client, and neither of us had looked at the reverse of any stamp in the process! And we are talking VERY serious $$’s here - way into 5 figures. I just added a modest margin over what I had paid, and flicked the lot. EVERY single one. Paid for our next exotic holiday. 8)

That client, a leading medical specialist, and I, did NOT get sent the Chartwell catalogue by Spink, and Rod Perry thus assures the world we are both pissant philatelic absolute nobodies, and he is perfectly entitled to his very curious Queensland view.

However, a few more pissant nobody peasants like us, bidding 5 or 6 figures each, and the sale might have been a SUCCESS. Food for thought. :idea:
corpman wrote:As usual Spink and their massive ego coupled with total incompetence and laziness, along with them refusing to properly advertise has led to these very poor results.

Will they ever learn.

And when will vendors ever learn that Australia is the best place to sell Australian material.

Way to go Spink you incompetent amateurs!!!!!!!

User avatar
22028
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
Posts: 1301
Joined: 02 Jun 2007 12:52
Location: Himmelstadt, Germany
Contact:

Re: Spink "Chartwell" Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by 22028 »

How a collector can be called serious if he does not know what is going on on the market????

Do these "serious" collectors with apparent unlimited funds rely on others to spoon-feed them???

@Glen, after the auction it is easy to complain and make wise comments how it could have been done better.
Collecting Interests: Tibet, Nepal-Classic Issues, Iran-First Issue (Lion stamps), Iraq-Railway stamps 1928-1942, Overland Mail Baghdad - Haifa, SCADTA, the provisional Registration stamps issue 1921, Colombia, the private carrier stamps.

User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 59219
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Spink "Chartwell" Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Global Administrator »

22028 wrote:
Glen, after the auction it is easy to complain and make wise comments how it could have been done better.
Someone else who has no collecting interest in these stamps, or this market, or the buyers in this market, and also most clearly has not READ this actual thread, is also now an Instant Armchair Expert as well - AFTER the event.

Spink were clearly advised how to do it better after the disastrous Arthur Gray QE2 and Booklets fizzers, but apparently chomped daintily on more Cucumber Sandwiches, and drank a few more Pimms and Lemonades, and did nothing down here to spread wide awareness.

I refer you to the unedited posts below, 2 and 7 of this thread .. made on February 15 and 17. WELL OVER THREE MONTHS BEFORE the sale. Agree?

The alleged Sydney viewing never took place of course, and I know for a FACT that Stamp News contacted Spink London several times many months ahead of the sale, enquiring if they wished to book an ad(s). Of course they never did. HAD they done so, they'd had got FAR more interest, and far more bids.
Global Administrator on [color=#FF0000][b]ON FEBRUARY 17[/b][/color] wrote:
Rod Perry wrote: For the non-believers, Spink will have the Chartwell Collection available for viewing in Sydney and Melbourne, in May.
Well perhaps Spink will extricate a digit for a change, and actually run local Magazine ads for this sale and let folks know of the sale, and mega £1000s viewing junket they are on down here - as they totally failed to do for the superb and unique Arthur Gray BOOKLETS collection, that will pass largely unknown to many keen potential buyers of same locally.

Arfur would be turning in his grave at this incompetence and lazy arrogance. :roll: :roll: :roll:
Global Administratoron FEBRUARY 15, 2018 wrote: Hope your apparent world scoop does not involve Spink selling them, as the collection will still remain almost unknown, much as is their non existent marketing on the unparalleled Arthur Gray Booklets collection in a few weeks. :idea:
Case Closed.

Post Reply

Return to “Discuss stamps - and *anything* at ALL happening with stamps”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: David Benson, ghopper02, Global Administrator, ViccyVFU and 11 guests