Spink "Chartwell" Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by W5LDY »

aethelwulf wrote:
corpman wrote:As usual Spink and their massive ego coupled with total incompetence and laziness along with them refusing to properly advertise has led to these very poor results.
But at least they produced a catalogue with pretty images...
W5LDY wrote:Superb, well illustrated hard copy of the catalogue just arrived. Very much looking forward to this sale. I feel competition will be very strong.
So much for "strong competition" it seems?
There was certainly strong competition for the States section, to which I was referring. I have no collecting interest in later Australia and do not follow prices of such big ticket Commonwealth items in auctions but prices can dip a bit when a significant and wealthy buyer becomes a seller, it is not always an indication of weakness in the market (and no, I do not work for Spink)
Last edited by W5LDY on 24 May 2018 18:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

starling wrote:The fabled 3d Kookaburra imperf. M/S only went for £58,000 :(

https://www.spink.com/lot/18047000691

Image

With add-ons and converting to Australian Dollars that is only about $125,000 or close to one third what it cost them to buy it only a few years ago.


Scott
Quite.

The largest loss ever booked for an Australian philatelic item.

Rather sobering.

But, of course, the original result was absurd.

I'll have more to add on this item, and others from the sale, in my Australasian Stamp News column, July number.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Global Administrator »

My views on Spink not being able to obtain top $$$ results for material from Australia in recent times, is retained intact. :roll: :roll:

They may well be the best outlet for the Cripps GB, but NOT for anything Australia related - as they keep proving beyond all doubt.

It does not mean the Australia market is soft at all - it just means the WRONG Action house offered this collection, in the WRONG country. Giving this company any Oxygen, reporting their poor results is doing the hobby here a GREAT disservice.

The recent 2018 Spink Arthur Gray Stamp Booklets sale was a total disaster - I'd have gladly paid the Gray family cash FAR more than Spink finally paid them. Some of the results were embarrassing. As was the Gray QE2 Collection. Appalling results.

ZERO ads in the local stamp magazines is clearly suicide for getting a really wide bidder base. Spink know this well, from recent poor results, and learn absolutely nothing from recent marketing mistakes here.

I feel sure Phoenix would have got a far better result for the Cripps/Chartwell Australia material. After all, they had several VERY high under-bidders when they sold the Hardy Kookaburra sheet. Many bids of DOUBLE what Spink got. :roll:

I personalty would have gladly paid far more than $125,000 for the Kooka Sheet, and I was actually planning to bid on the Gray Unissued 1914 pair at Gray Auction, until David Wood sat next to me at mossgreen saleroom. :)

I bought the unique Die Proof instead, of the unissued 2d stamp. What this pair now got at Spink will doubtless also be disappointing - I can't bear to wrestle with their clunky website to look - but again it does not reflect their real worth via a heavily promoted local auction.

As the troggs at Spink did not bother to mail me a catalogue, I did not bother to bid on anything. Typically brilliant Spink marketing to those with very deep pockets, and an active global client base for this exact material. :roll:

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Tassie_Stamps »

Spink does not send a catalogue to anyone, unless you pay them approx AUD $50.00 each :cry:

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

Tassie_Stamps wrote:Spink does not send a catalogue to anyone, unless you pay them approx AUD $50.00 each :cry:
Spink ensure that everyone that matters receives a catalogue.

Their internet site provides full access for those who do not receive a physical catalogue.

Spink bringing the sale to Australia for viewing, I would consider an adequate gesture for the motivated buyer.

But, of course, the "motivated buyer" is generally rarer than the material offered.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Global Administrator »

Rod Perry wrote: Spink ensure that everyone that matters receives a catalogue.
Demonstrably false Rod.

Spink are so out touch in this market, there is a gaggle of heavily cashed up buyers who Spink have never heard of. Hence their recent appalling Auction results from this region.

If they drag themselves away from their cucumber sandwiches and glasses of Pimms and Lemonade one day, and run some ads in the local stamp magazines re forthcoming sales, and do some bog basic marketing, they will doubtless discover this obvious truism. :idea:

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

Global Administrator wrote:
Rod Perry wrote: Spink ensure that everyone that matters receives a catalogue.
Demonstrably false Rod.
Every serious collector of Australia: Colonial and Commonwealth, that I know of, is known to Spink, or at the very least knows of Spink, Glen.

Further, the proactive "Auction Central" websites fill any gaps in exposure.

If you know of serious collectors that are under the Spink radar, it would appear you have a unique window of opportunity to buy and sell from Spink, to great advantage?

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Global Administrator »

You are digging that hole ever deeper Rod.

Spink recent sales results for Australia stamps prove you are palpably wrong. And the following insulting slight I repeat again, is demonstrably false Rod. You very clearly have NO idea exactly who gets their printed catalogues. (Nor should you of course.)
Rod Perry wrote: Spink ensure that everyone that matters receives a catalogue.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

Global Administrator wrote:You are digging that hole ever deeper Rod.

Spink recent sales results for Australia stamps prove you are palpably wrong. And the following insulting slight I repeat again, is demonstrably false Rod. You very clearly have NO idea exactly who gets their printed catalogues. (Nor should you of course.)
Rod Perry wrote: Spink ensure that everyone that matters receives a catalogue.
As always, Glen, you and you alone know everything.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Global Administrator »

I suspect a great number share my exact views above Rod.

You of course are free to air whatever fanciful theories you choose from the Republic Of Far North Queensland, even when the facts clearly disprove them totally. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

Global Administrator wrote:I suspect a great number share my exact views above Rod.

You of course are free to air whatever fanciful theories you choose from the Republic Of Far North Queensland, even when the facts clearly disprove them totally. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Uhh?

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Global Administrator »

tapstamp wrote:Certainly the decision to hold an unreserved auction has caused a blip on the market value of some of this material.

As an example I have detailed the results of seven items that were purchased at the Morgan Sale and resold in this sale and the result is of some concern.

The seven items were originally purchased for 433.000 Pounds and were resold for a total of 156.000 Pounds.

This would be of concern to the owners of the small numbers of the same items in other collections.

Should the catalog value of these items be adjusted to reflect the new market value? Or can this auction be regarded as abnormal?

Cheers Tom
Tom,

Spink got FAR less for some superb pieces, than Phoenix or other locally plugged in Auctions would have easily obtained in my view. Not just for the Hugh Morgan material you were so involved with, but the superb ex Hardy and ex Gray material, and trust me, that is the view of MANY other savvy buyers here.

The recent Spink stamp flops do not represent the real stamp marketplace here I'd suggest, and are an aberration. The less said about this result the better, as it does not reflect the real market here. I mentally pretend they do not exist, and do not lose any sleep over that decision. :mrgreen:

If Phoenix ran it all next week, many Spink cheerleaders would be gobsmacked I'd suggest, at the strong results it would get locally. The FACTS are that plenty of cashed up folks did not know about it, or because it was Spink offering it, simply did not bother getting involved - me for starters. At my stage in career I can CHOOSE who I support in this business. A lovely position to be in. I do not "need" any specific stamps in my life or stock.

I was an under-bidder on the large £2 Roo block shown above, and the even better looking 10/- large Mint Roo part sheet at Hardy sale, and as I typed at the time, was a real gem of the sale in my view.

Tom, in the superb material you and Hugh Morgan were involved in a few years back, there was a BUZZ for months ahead. Ads in local stamp magazines (what a NOVEL idea!) and press stories etc. I did many radio interviews nationally on that upcoming Spink sale for ABC news etc. THAT got you lot of serious bidders, who had never heard of Spink. None of that occurred for the Chartwell sale that I heard or saw, and Spink have clearly taken their eye off the ball - IMHO.
Image

Image
The superb image from Phoenix HARDY, and the lower than ebay standard washed out image from the Spink cruddy website are above. I'll let you decide which is which. 8) 8) 8)

I recall halfway during the Hardy Kangaroo sale that David Wood phoned me to tell me excitedly the £1 sideways watermark Roo OS above had just been invoiced (to Chartwell we now know) for $A233,000. Hand the SAME stamp to Spink, and they get £45,000 Hammer - STUNNING marketing. :roll:

https://www.spink.com/lot/18047000623

I asked David why he was phoning me, if the huge sale was in full progress, and he said he was excited by this world record figure, and that only a couple of dozen lots were unsold from the sale to that point.

I said to him, whatever those lots are, I will buy them, and I'd collect them in person tomorrow at Australia 2013. David was pretty shocked, and said "But you do not know what they are, and how much they will cost". I said that did not matter, as Mark Knothe had described them all, and the descriptions would be 100% accurate. So before the sale finished, Phoenix could proudly claim to the room the massive Hardy sale was a 100% sell-out. A FIRST in Australia for a major stamp sale. MULTI Millions in invoices.

Next day, and I had not even taken them out of the auction cards, as the Phoenix staff had handed them over to me just 5 minutes before. I was idly flipping through the auction cards, when a client walked by with his wife and saw them, and offered to buy them all - sight unseen, and he did just that.

He is a keen Kangaroo collector, and knew this material was not something he’d see again in his lifetime, indeed one 5/- “OS” Monogram item was unique - and I suspect is worth twice now what he paid. (Unless Spink offer it of course!)

A leading dealer told me that one stamp was, in his view, the howling bargain of the entire Hardy sale. I had in turn bought the material sight unseen, as I was too busy to view it beforehand.

So the material went from the Hardy collection pages, to me, to my client, and neither of us had looked at the reverse of any stamp in the process! And we are talking VERY serious $$’s here - way into 5 figures. I just added a modest margin over what I had paid, and flicked the lot. EVERY single one. Paid for our next exotic holiday. 8)

That client, a leading medical specialist, and I, did NOT get sent the Chartwell catalogue by Spink, and Rod Perry thus assures the world we are both pissant philatelic absolute nobodies, and he is perfectly entitled to his very curious Queensland view.

However, a few more pissant nobody peasants like us, bidding 5 or 6 figures each, and the sale might have been a SUCCESS. Food for thought. :idea:
corpman wrote:As usual Spink and their massive ego coupled with total incompetence and laziness, along with them refusing to properly advertise has led to these very poor results.

Will they ever learn.

And when will vendors ever learn that Australia is the best place to sell Australian material.

Way to go Spink you incompetent amateurs!!!!!!!

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Global Administrator »

Image
OMG .. just saw this disaster result. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

What an embarrassment - unique in private hands, 2 of the classic Australia stamp rarities, and I was in the room in Melbourne when mossgreen invoiced them for ~$A185,000 to Cripps/Chartwell.

Why? As it was on the front cover of the Gray catalogue and the WELL promoted Gray stamp Auction. That all the REAL cashed up buyers of Australia stamps received a catalogue for. Not just the cucumber sandwich munching toffs.

HUGE catalogue value of $A250,000. I suggest even a non philatelic auction house in Australia would have done FAR better than this PATHETIC effort from Spink London.

I'd have gladly paid much more than that tomorrow for both - NO question.

Spink Estimate £40,000-£50,000 was clearly way on the low side, based on Cat value and what was paid, and yet all they could scrape up was a measly £26,000.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by 22028 »

Global Administrator wrote:
Image
OMG .. just saw this disaster result. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

What an embarrassment - unique in private hands, 2 of the classic Australia stamp rarities, and I was in the room in Melbourne when mossgreen invoiced them for ~$A185,000 to Cripps/Chartwell.

Why? As it was on the front cover of the Gray catalogue and the WELL promoted Gray stamp Auction. That all the REAL cashed up buyers of Australia stamps received a catalogue for. Not just the cucumber sandwich munching toffs.

HUGE catalogue value of $A250,000. I suggest even a non philatelic auction house in Australia would have done FAR better than this PATHETIC effort from Spink London.

I'd have gladly paid much more than that tomorrow for both - NO question.

Spink Estimate £40,000-£50,000 was clearly way on the low side, based on Cat value and what was paid, and yet all they could scrape up was a measly £26,000.

Signed,

Pissant philatelic absolute clueless nobody.
An item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for. Why Australian philately should be different from any areas?
I have numerous examples from my collecting fields..., and have the prices that were asked for earlier and now!

There were Classic German items ex. Boker, at that time extremely high prices, now often sold again and they realise only a fraction, Early Colombia Airmail, there were numerous items mentioned in a recent article at Copacarta, again prices then and now...
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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

22028 wrote:An item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for. Why Australian philately should be different from any areas?
I have numerous examples from my collecting fields..., and have the prices that were asked for earlier and now!

There were Classic German items ex. Boker, at that time extremely high prices, now often sold again and they realise only a fraction, Early Colombia Airmail, there were numerous items mentioned in a recent article at Copacarta, again prices then and now...
During the past half decade or so, of the ten biggest buyers of Traditional Australia material, eight have exited the market (mostly due to circumstances beyond their control).

Those eight departures have not, as yet, been replaced by collectors of their calibre.

Why wouldn't this quantum change in the composition of Australia collectors be reflected in the Chartwell results?

Further, since the discovery in 1984 that the 1914 "Unissued" 2d and 1/- were in fact not what they had been classified as for decades, but were Colour trials, their former appeal as the most valuable items of Australian Commonwealth Philately has gradually been reassessed.

Now that the Old brigade*, those who had long dreamt of owning "the most valuable items of Australian Commonwealth Philately" has all but passed, the value of the 1914 2d and 1/- has reduced to more like what would be expected of "Proof" material. The small tear in the 2d has not helped either. (addressed by Spink in their "a couple of insignificant blemishes otherwise very fine" description.)

(* I was one of that Old brigade, achieving the dream in 1979, when I came to own the other pair, and the three Die proofs of the 1/-, now in the Australia Post Archival Collection.)

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by iaincraven »

I don't really follow the market dynamics of this? If there was a massive gap between what the local Australian collector market would pay versus the prices realised then why didn't Australia specialist dealers buy-buy-buy those items and make a huge windfall?

Surely that's exactly what dealers are in business for? Why on earth did you not bid Glen? When I find a bargain auction I buy everything I can! I don't boycott the auction because it hasn't already advertised those same lots to absolutely everyone I might on-sell to :lol: That would be crazy!

And YES I am not an Australian specialist and YES the result was - I didn't win any of the lots I bid on :cry:
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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

iaincraven wrote:I don't really follow the market dynamics of this? If there was a massive gap between what the local Australian collector market would pay versus the prices realised then why didn't Australia specialist dealers buy-buy-buy those items and make a huge windfall?

Surely that's exactly what dealers are in business for? Why on earth did you not bid Glen? When I find a bargain auction I buy everything I can! I don't boycott the auction because it hasn't already advertised those same lots to absolutely everyone I might on-sell to :lol: That would be crazy!

And YES I am not an Australian specialist and YES the result was - I didn't win any of the lots I bid on :cry:
I, for one, can't disagree with your logic, Iain.

In fact, however, the big Australia dealers present at the auction did "buy-buy-buy". If or not that activity translates to "a huge windfall" only time will tell.

This dealer bid very selectively, for two reasons:

1. I'm presently not a player in what is generally termed "Traditional" Australia material, which is precisely what Chartwell embraced. Even if I was a player, I would consider prices, even at the lower paradigm, generally do not represent good value for money, by my standards. (a notable exception being the Essays)

2. I am a player for covers/stationery, particularly 20th century. "Chartwell" was an Old school collector, one of the once many who considered 20th century covers too "modern" to be any good. Typically for that School, aside from a handful of early 1900s Federal-era items, the collection was devoid of later 20th century covers. Even Kangaroos were not considered sufficiently important to have them included.

The Chartwell collecting model was amongst the last of its kind. The present generation of specialists expect more diversity in their collecting pursuits. And so it should be.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by bluecourier »

Some thoughts, for what they are worth.

A number of art, collectible and antiques commentators have noted changes over time up to the present that may well also relate to philately.

For art and antiques - old masters, modern art, silver, C18th furniture, the best stuff still sells at good prices. Lower end stuff sells also, because it is cheap and there will always be collectors who don't have a lot of money. The problem is the middle range stuff. 'Old goods' are just not as popular as they used to be. Antique silver and furniture for instance, don't fit too well with much modern décor. This does not really relate to the Chartwell auction, as the middle range States material did get good prices.

There is plenty of new money entering the art and antiques market. A good number of the new rich, from China and Russia for instance, collect modern art, the old art of their respective homelands and antiques. Some Hollywood film stars collect too. These items can be displayed and can demonstrate the owners wealth. Stamps may be the poor relations here. In line with other users comments, many of the 'old' collectors are indeed old, or have passed on, and not much 'new' money is directed into stamp collecting to replace them.
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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

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iaincraven wrote:Why on earth did you not bid Glen? When I find a bargain auction I buy everything I can! I don't boycott the auction because it hasn't already advertised those same lots to absolutely everyone I might on-sell to :lol:
Iain, as I posted above, I do not support mediocrity and laziness with my money. They can fund their cucumber sandwiches, and Pimms and Bucks Fizz drinkies sessions, with their high fees from someone else. :mrgreen:

The Spink stamp division exudes that laziness and indifference in recent years, and in my opinion anyone consigning better Australian stamps to them has rocks in their head - as all the recent Spink stamp sales, of this, and the Arthur Gray superb QE2 and Booklets material, have proven beyond any shadow of any doubt.

I do not ''NEED'' any stock - I have a 3 storey house here filled with stamps, that in 100 years I could not hope to lot or sell. I buy what I like, and what I choose to.

However, unlike some posting here, I have a clear BIG PICTURE vision for this HOBBY. RARE Australia stamps getting GOOD prices, is good for the hobby, and very good for the entire local market.

Had this EXACT same Chartwell material been offered by Phoenix, or even Abacus/Prestige this month, the prices would have been a TON higher, for the exact same material. That I can guarantee. THAT is good for the local market. (And very good for the vendor of course!) And SMART dealers, in for the long haul, want to see a strong and local market, over a one-off gain for them, on a few lots. :idea:

Why would it do better locally? As THEY both have the client base who buys top end Australia stamps in 2018. Spink clearly no longer do. And both will actively and aggressively and effectively promote top end sales like this locally, as both have proven readily in recent years. Spink clearly no longer do.

Spink lazily do not bother to even take stamp magazine ads to advise the 1000s of active buyers here who have never HEARD of Spink, that such a mind-boggling sale is even taking place! Laziness and incompetence I do not reward, in any area I spend money in. Cruddy ebay grade scans like those above on the £1 Roo are a DISGRACE in 2018. :roll: :roll:

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by tapstamp »

I agree with the comments by Rod re the Spink Auction house being a successful and well run auction house "WORLD WIDE ' and I consider the dialogue between Glen toward Rod is getting beyond a joke. !! .
What was Glen's objective in his posting of all the details of his Stuart Hardy's purchases?
I would appreciate some comments as to whether these latest values should be reflected in Catalogue Values?
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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

tapstamp wrote: I would appreciate some comments as to whether these latest values should be reflected in Catalogue Values?

Tom
Tom, as to your final sentence, I cannot speak for the present owner of ACSC.

When I was at the controls, I exhaustively researched auction realisations, dealer's offers, and noted diligently off-market results reported to me by reliable sources.

This intelligence was reflected in the pricing of each new edition of the relevant volume of the catalogue.

I did not carry a stock of Traditional material of any significance in the decade I owned ACSC, aside from covers, and had no vested interest in raising prices for the sake of it, and in doing so ignoring what the market was saying.

Since 2002, when I no longer controlled the catalogue, pricing has largely been the domain of a handful of major collectors and dealers.

Enough said.

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Re: Major Australia Collection Sale Announcement Imminent

Post by pmc »

Rod Perry wrote:
billw2 wrote:
The Pom wrote:The cover is lot 104 in the sale, est £100-120.
Right, but I am curious as to what Rod thinks it is worth.

I have bid several multiples of high estimate and lost lots in recent times and I have bought lot for less than half of low estimate.
I would think of it as a AU$300 (say, US$225) item, Bill.

However, it's so attractive, and later-era Queensland covers are very hard to find so striking, it may well sell for AU$500 (US$375 approx.).

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by MJ's pet »

Here is the marketing video put out by Spink for the Chartwell Australia and Colonies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6Gi3TX9TSc

Enjoy!

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Global Administrator »

tapstamp wrote: I would appreciate some comments as to whether these latest values should be reflected in Catalogue Values?

Tom
Tom, this Spink Chartwell sale was a sad and poorly advertised aberration in many sections, and the less said about it the better. I feel sure some of these lots would fetch about DOUBLE if immediately retreaded into a decent well promoted local auction. In which case, the Status Quo would be retained re catalogue values.
Global Administrator wrote:
However, unlike some posting here, I have a clear BIG PICTURE vision for this HOBBY. RARE Australia stamps getting GOOD prices, is good for the hobby, and very good for the entire local market.

Had this EXACT same Chartwell material been offered by Phoenix, or even Abacus/Prestige this month, the prices would have been a TON higher, for the exact same material. That I can guarantee. THAT is good for the local market. (And very good for the vendor of course!) And SMART dealers, in for the long haul, want to see a strong and local market, over a one-off gain for them, on a few lots. :idea:

Why would it do better locally? As THEY both have the client base who buys top end Australia stamps in 2018. Spink clearly no longer do. And both will actively and aggressively and effectively promote top end sales like this locally, as both have proven readily in recent years. Spink clearly no longer do.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Allanswood »

tapstamp wrote: I would appreciate some comments as to whether these latest values should be reflected in Catalogue Values?

Tom

For me, no.
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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

Remember, we have Besançon (Part II) coming up at Corinphila next week in Zurich.

That collection is more powerful in Colonials than Chartwell, and less so with Commonwealth.

However, Besançon does contain a number of recently acquired significant items, including from Morgan sale.

Comparisons between the two auctions will be interesting for analysts!

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Re: Major Australia Collection Sale Announcement Imminent

Post by billw2 »

pmc wrote:
Rod Perry wrote:
billw2 wrote:
The Pom wrote:The cover is lot 104 in the sale, est £100-120.
Right, but I am curious as to what Rod thinks it is worth.

I have bid several multiples of high estimate and lost lots in recent times and I have bought lot for less than half of low estimate.
I would think of it as a AU$300 (say, US$225) item, Bill.

However, it's so attractive, and later-era Queensland covers are very hard to find so striking, it may well sell for AU$500 (US$375 approx.).

Rod
Image
Thanks for posting the result of that. Looks like Rod was right on the money.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by aethelwulf »

bluecourier wrote:Some thoughts, for what they are worth.

This does not really relate to the Chartwell auction
Not worth much then.
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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by pmc »

aethelwulf wrote:Thanks for posting the result of that. Looks like Rod was right on the money.
£320 (hammer) + £16 (5% tax) + £64 (20% buyers premium) + £9.60 (3% processing fee) = £409.60

At the current exchange rate £409.60 = AU$723.57 :shock: :shock: :shock:

But, good news for quality covers 8)
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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by billw2 »

Rod Perry wrote: During the past half decade or so, of the ten biggest buyers of Traditional Australia material, eight have exited the market (mostly due to circumstances beyond their control).

Those eight departures have not, as yet, been replaced by collectors of their calibre.

Why wouldn't this quantum change in the composition of Australia collectors be reflected in the Chartwell results?

Further, since the discovery in 1984 that the 1914 "Unissued" 2d and 1/- were in fact not what they had been classified as for decades, but were Colour trials, their former appeal as the most valuable items of Australian Commonwealth Philately has gradually been reassessed.

Now that the Old brigade*, those who had long dreamt of owning "the most valuable items of Australian Commonwealth Philately" has all but passed, the value of the 1914 2d and 1/- has reduced to more like what would be expected of "Proof" material. The small tear in the 2d has not helped either. (addressed by Spink in their "a couple of insignificant blemishes otherwise very fine" description.)

(* I was one of that Old brigade, achieving the dream in 1979, when I came to own the other pair, and the three Die proofs of the 1/-, now in the Australia Post Archival Collection.)

Rod
I think this fully explains the results. I am much younger than most people who collect what I do (Early US Postal history, mainly 1861 issues) but I have grown up and been around this collecting genre for my entire life and this absolutely hits the nail on the head.

Back in the early 1970s my father decided to collect the 10c 1861 because nobody else was seriously collecting the issue. Paul Rohloff was collecting 5c covers, Ray Vogel the 12c and 15c, Leon Hyzen the 24c and Bob Paliafito the 30c. And you'd see big market swings when major collectors would leave the hobby for various reasons; once Paul Rohloff stopped collecting the early 5c stamps there was a market correction on some spectacular covers for example.

This can't be due to Spink not advertising in some local trade magazines in Australia. I will guarantee that every serious collector of this material knew darn well that this auction was going on as the internet has dramatically shrunk the world.

Look at what happened when some obscure auction house in Germany got their hands on a full sheet of dollar value Columbian stamps; Scott Trepel from Siegel auctions got on a plane to bid on it.

This material simply does not go unnoticed anymore.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by gdmcon »

I'd like to put my two pennies worth on this discussion.

As an active Kangaroo collector I'd like say that Arthur Gray sold his collection at the top of the kangaroo market and almost any item that has been resold has suffered a marked discount.

It should also be noted that a few items that were sold at Stuart Hardies auction were a stand out and I believe were an aberration at the time whilst the remainder were lower than prices achieved at the Gray auction.

I would like to hear other collectors opinions.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

Not much goes unnoticed nowadays, Bill, as you emphasise.

Specifically relating to Chartwell, Mark Knothe, the Australian Auction Agent, who attended the London sale (and is presently enroute to Zurich for the other big Australasia auction), advised me he was holding bids for 23 individual participants from Australia, most of whom viewed Chartwell when it was brought to Melbourne for that purpose.

Gone (sadly) are the days when one could buy a Western Australia 1854 Inverted Frame (SG Cat £140,000) for a few thousand AUD in Deutschmarks in a German language auction catalogue, and immediately re-offer at auction in Australia and achieve seven times cost (it happened, in 1977!).

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by W5LDY »

Rod Perry wrote:
iaincraven wrote:I don't really follow the market dynamics of this? If there was a massive gap between what the local Australian collector market would pay versus the prices realised then why didn't Australia specialist dealers buy-buy-buy those items and make a huge windfall?

Surely that's exactly what dealers are in business for? Why on earth did you not bid Glen? When I find a bargain auction I buy everything I can! I don't boycott the auction because it hasn't already advertised those same lots to absolutely everyone I might on-sell to :lol: That would be crazy!

And YES I am not an Australian specialist and YES the result was - I didn't win any of the lots I bid on :cry:
I, for one, can't disagree with your logic, Iain.

In fact, however, the big Australia dealers present at the auction did "buy-buy-buy". If or not that activity translates to "a huge windfall" only time will tell.

This dealer bid very selectively, for two reasons:

1. I'm presently not a player in what is generally termed "Traditional" Australia material, which is precisely what Chartwell embraced. Even if I was a player, I would consider prices, even at the lower paradigm, generally do not represent good value for money, by my standards. (a notable exception being the Essays)

2. I am a player for covers/stationery, particularly 20th century. "Chartwell" was an Old school collector, one of the once many who considered 20th century covers too "modern" to be any good. Typically for that School, aside from a handful of early 1900s Federal-era items, the collection was devoid of later 20th century covers. Even Kangaroos were not considered sufficiently important to have them included.

The Chartwell collecting model was amongst the last of its kind. The present generation of specialists expect more diversity in their collecting pursuits. And so it should be.

Rod
Hmm, interesting comment, makes me even more delighted I bagged these from the South Australian competition essays on offer.
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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

gdmcon wrote:I'd like to put my two pennies worth on this discussion.

As an active Kangaroo collector I'd like say that Arthur Gray sold his collection at the top of the kangaroo market and almost any item that has been resold has suffered a marked discount.

It should also be noted that a few items that were sold at Stuart Hardies auction were a stand out and I believe were an aberration at the time whilst the remainder were lower than prices achieved at the Gray auction.

I would like to hear other collectors opinions.
"I would like to hear other collectors opinions."

Well, I hope a dealer/collector opinion is eligible.

You are spot on in observing that Arthur Gray sold his Kangaroos at the peak of the market.

Further, you are correct that a number of Stuart Hardy lots realised results which rightly could be termed an "aberration".

The skewed results for those lots*, I suggest, were the result of a combination of bidding Clashes of Titans, some of which were as follows:

1. A wealthy South Australian collector, attending the Kangaroos sale, intent upon bringing back "home" many key "Stu" items, irrespective of cost.

This S.A. collector more than occasionally clashed with "Chartwell". Bloodletting (of the kind to which the Blood Bank aspires) ensued.

When, for example, will we ever see AU$60k or so for a Kangaroo 2½d Missing "1" in fraction, USED (!) ? (In this opinion, ACSC present $30k is way too high)

2. A notable collector of Kangaroos from Queensland, of considerable means, whom I have regarded for 40 years as a "last man standing" bidder, courageously entered the bidding arena, against these two virtual "buy" bidders.

He shook his head, when we discussed post-mortem the Hardy results. Never, in all those decades, had he encountered the manic enthusiasm of the Chartwell/S.A. collector clashes, which resulted in him adding little, if anything, amongst his "must have" lots.

* A few examples: Third wmk £1 Bicolour wmk. sideways, CofA wmk £2 block of 24, 1928 Kookaburra minisheet Imperforate.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by W5LDY »

Tassie_Stamps wrote:Spink does not send a catalogue to anyone, unless you pay them approx AUD $50.00 each :cry:
As a regular UK based buyer of modest means I get the London 'Collector's series' and named sale catalogues free of charge.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by borsac »

Did anything do well at this auction? Covers? States?

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

borsac wrote:Did anything do well at this auction? Covers? States?
The results are available to all:

https://www.spink.com/auctions/view?auctionId=18047

Colonial-era generally did well, the mixed stamp lots particularly so.

A U.K.-based Buyer, on behalf of an Australia-based collector, whose hobby appears to be not only Philately, but how much can be lost in the pursuit, often skewed the realisations for mixed lots.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by W5LDY »

borsac wrote:Did anything do well at this auction? Covers? States?
I followed the States morning session closely.

I think I can summarise with these general comments (there being some obvious exceptions) which please bear in mind are my opinion only and not a statement of fact.

Most lots sold well with competitive bidding, against what I thought were at times very low guide prices. The mixed collections of earlier Victoria state were very popular, these contained a number of significant unused or mint items which are very scarce. For all States individual rarities, errors and varieties made good money, with proofs and essays always popular, prices seemed to me to be in line with recent realisations elsewhere.

I have collected these for over forty years, there were many lots I would have liked and was very pleased to purchase seven lots in all, a couple on my top bid, a couple well under and a couple a bit over.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by David Benson »

I was following the sale online and noticed that many of the heavily contested lots was a battle between room bidders and live internet bidders,

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by kangaroo23 »

I tend to be more of a reader than a poster on this forum, however I did participate online in the Kangaroo and part of the Commonwealth segments of the Chartwell auction and thought I could add something to this topic.

The commencement of the Kangaroo section was running late by over an hour and a half due to protracted bidding in the States section, eventually starting at 12:30am AEST. By the time the Kangaroo section finished, it was around 3:30am AEST. I feel that this was a major bungle by Spink, as the auction should have been run over two separate days to maximise participation by Australian and other online bidders. One can only guess how many potential Australian bidders were turned off by the late timing of the auction.

Most of the estimates in the Chartwell auction were set by Spink considerably lower than what the same lots previously achieved in Morgan / Hardy auctions. Presumably this was to encourage bidding, particularly given that Chartwell was an unreserved auction. From the results achieved, it seems that this strategy backfired.

My view is that the lateness of the Kangaroo segment commencement contributed to many of the more prominent Kangaroo items selling below previous realisations (some considerably so), although a few seemed to hold their prices or even beat the previous auction results (third watermark and small multiple watermark £2 Kangaroo Ash imprints are good examples). From my read of the auction, there was one phone bidder and one floor bidder who seemed to pick up many of the key items.

I thought the following key items, many from Morgan / Hardy, are worth commenting on (prices are ex buyers premium for ease of comparison and where I could find it I also have provided what the same or similar item sold for in Morgan / Hardy):

- 1st watermark 1/2d imperforate block of 12 with JBC monogram: Chartwell £21,000 (ex Morgan £50,000).

- 1st watermark 1d with sideways watermark block of 6 no monogram: Chartwell £15,000 (ex Hardy AU$32,000 (or about £21,000 at the time)).

- 1st watermark 3d imperforate block of 4 with JBC monogram: Chartwell £29,000 (ex Morgan £70,000).

- 1st watermark £1 with CA monogram hinged in selvedge only: Chartwell £21,000 (ex Morgan £65,000).

- £2 die proof in purple: Chartwell £11,000 (ex Hardy AU$72,500 (about £47,000 at the time)).

- 3rd watermark 2½d missing '1' in fraction perforated "OS": Chartwell £5,000 + BP (ex Morgan £13,000).

- 3rd watermark 6d chestnut die proof: Chartwell £5,200 (similar but inferior proof sold ex Morgan for £16,000).

- 3rd watermark 1/- Die II block of 8 with Harrison imprint: Chartwell £16,000 (ex Hardy AU$44,000 (or about £29,000 at the time)).

- 3rd watermark 2/- brown imperforate pair: Chartwell £50,000 (ex Morgan £70,000).

- 3rd watermark 2/- brown JBC Monogram used block of 12 perforated 'OS': Chartwell £15,000 (ex Hardy AU$30,000 (or about £19,000 at the time)).

- 3rd watermark £1 with sideways watermark perforated "OS": Chartwell £45,000 (ex Hardy AU$200,000 (about £130,000 at the time)).

- 3rd watermark £2 block of 4 with Ash imprint: Chartwell £50,000 (ex Morgan £50,000).

- small multiple watermark £2 block of 4 with Ash imprint: Chartwell £50,000 (ex Hardy AU$62,500 (about £41,000 at the time)).

- small multiple watermark £2 block of 24 MUH: Chartwell £65,000 (ex Hardy AU$195,000 (about £127,000 at the time)).

- C of A watermark 5/- block of 24 MUH: Chartwell £8,500 (ex Hardy AU$20,000 (about £13,000 at the time)).

- C of A watermark 10/- block of 24 MUH: Chartwell £13,000 (Hardy AU$32,000 (about £21,000 at the time)).

I thought that the 1/2d imperf block of 12 with JBC monogram, £1 CA monogram, £2 purple die proof and the 3d imperf block of 4 with JBC monogram were "bargains" for the well-heeled Kangaroo collector (which sadly I am not :o ).

I am interested to hear what other Kangaroo collectors think were the 'buys of the auction'?

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by David Benson »

Kangaroo,

The one room bidder was a well known Australian auction agent who had bids from 38 Australians.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Rod Perry »

My comments are scheduled to appear in Australasian Stamp News, July issue, so I'm a little restricted.

However, the timing issue I suggest was not a factor in the diminished realisations generally for Commonwealth pricier items.

The Big buyers were represented, in person in room or on phone, or by a trusted Agent. The time of day does not influence the enthusiastic, big or small buyer.

The principal reason for the price corrections, and there's nothing unusual in that occurrence, historically, is that the "Big buyers" have gradually diminished, and have not (as yet) been replaced.

Chartwell, in recent years, was one of the biggest of the big.

He got his timing wrong.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Temora22 »

Thank you for your report and comparisons Kangaroo23 - interesting reading.

Regards,

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by thecloudwatcher »

Whispers amongst the London trade are that Joseph Hackmey and Hugh Wood were two major buyers in the Australian States section.

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Global Administrator »

kangaroo23 wrote:
I am interested to hear what other Kangaroo collectors think were the 'buys of the auction'?
Do be mindful when quoting what pieces "SOLD" for, that a true picture is given.

MANY collectors, indeed some dealers, seem to live in a deluded Fantasy World that does not take into account the multitude of REAL costs this kind of material incurs for an oz buyer.

Placing aside the rather appalling Spink Chartwell results, due to their lazy and sloppy non-marketing by Spink to many potential buyers, the poor prices they actually achieved were subject to the following, given many lots are headed back to Australia -

"Subject to 5% tax on Hammer Price, in addition to 20% VAT on the 20% Buyer’s Premium."

PLUS a cheeky 4% EXTRA Spink fee in order for any buyers to use a credit card, (MANY times their real cost, and hence totally illegal in Australia) PLUS the 3% foreign purchase charge oz banks change users to use a credit card overseas, PLUS the 3% fake exchange rate screws all our banks charge us on top of that 3% impost.

Plus Spink horrendous postage and Insurance charges, Plus 10% inward GST on total invoice value collected here on material valued over $A1000, as Spink sendings show invoice value.

So a £1000 ''hammer price" item is $A1,750, using your newspaper exchange rate but it REALLY cost you as a local collector paying with a credit card OVER £1500 or $2,643. Near $A1000 more.

So if you are a local collector purchasing anything at over $A1000 invoice, and paying by credit card your REAL cost is 50% higher than the hammer price.

Those "Bargains" do not look so enticing, when that reality check is done. "£10,000" actually becomes £15,000 and so on. :idea:

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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by iaincraven »

Do be mindful when quoting what pieces "SOLD" for, that a true picture is given.
The 5% on hammer price has been discussed already on this thread - it isn't charged on items which are exported outwith the EU so an Australia buyer will not be charged that.

And that 4% credit card charge seemed very high, but I checked and it is only 2% in their terms and conditions???
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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Global Administrator »

iaincraven wrote:
Do be mindful when quoting what pieces "SOLD" for, that a true picture is given.
The 5% on hammer price has been discussed already on this thread - it isn't charged on items which are exported outwith the EU so an Australia buyer will not be charged that.

And that 4% credit card charge seemed very high, but I checked and it is only 2% in their terms and conditions???
Is EVERYONE posting on this thread on the payroll of Spink? I agree their website is hopeless but IF spink marked all the lots as ''X'' Taxable and clearly indicate that involves TWO UK taxes, not sure who authorised you to broadcast that is wrong.

WHY I waste time reading things before posting is now unknown to me now, but for those that cannot read or comprehend the English language, here is a refresher course -
Image

Image

Image

Image
Bottom line, to repeat the point again, for those who failed Math and basic economics - an ozzie buyer, via credit card, of a £10,000 lot pays ~£15,000. A tad more a tad less -- who really cares - it is still around a 50% EXTRA cost versus those in Cloud Cuckoo Land who wrongly state something cost ''£10,000''.

Those waffling on about bidding live paid an EXTRA 3% of top of all these fees of course.

The CREDIT CARD bill is what all these buyers seems to never look at. FORGET ''Hammer Prices''. That is just the START point for a half dozen extra gouges. :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by iaincraven »

WHY I waste time reading things before posting is now unknown to me now


Glen, I do understand you want to put auction figures that are as high as possible :wink: . But this was discussed back on page 1 and here is the relevant bit that I read before posting.
5.3.1 As we remain liable to account for VAT on all Lots unless they have been exported outside the EU within 3 months of the date of the sale, you will generally be asked to deposit all amounted of VAT invoices. However, if a Spink nominated shipper is instructed, then any refundable VAT will not be collected. In all other cases credits will be made when proof of export is provided. …
They could make it clearer, but you wont pay that 5%. Expatyeoman confirmed this:
To touch on the VAT discussion above, when I've bought from them before and items were posted direct to me overseas, they automatically reworked the VAT which gave a welcome reduction (esp. with the pound strengthening against AUD & HKD recently!)
I don't work for Spink :lol: , but I'd already wasted my time reading the T&Cs before posting back on page 1!
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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Global Administrator »

iaincraven wrote:
I don't work for Spink
I do not think ANYONE works for Spink given the wide level of incompetence we see from in there. You and several others here give that impression strongly that you are flag waving employees. The Cucumber Sandwiches will be there by courier for lunch on your desk I am sure.

Do you AGREE all their lots are marked ''X'' on their website as I clearly show, and Do you AGREE all their lots have a note saying that "X" incurs a 5% and 20% fee on top of 20% Buyer Fee? ?

Do you AGREE they say credit cards incur a 4% surcharge?

It might be they change no card fee, and buyer fee is only 2%, and no UK taxes apply, and all lots are mailed post free.

And the Moon might be made of Green Cheese. :!:
iaincraven wrote: Glen, I do understand you want to put auction figures that are as high as possible
Utter nonsense - I am simply ensuring ACCURACY here, and am simply stating the Bog Obvious, that the landed COST to a local here is ~50% higher than ''Hammer Prices'', which are meaningless with overseas sellers like Spink.
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Re: Chartwell Australian Collection Sale 23/5/2018

Post by Monogram »

I just paid my invoice from Spinks paid 20% buyers premium and £25 postage. I was happy to pay 2% credit card fees as ended up cheaper than doing bank transfer. Very happy with purchase
Last edited by Monogram on 30 May 2018 00:57, edited 1 time in total.

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