Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

News items. General trends, new issues, new policies etc. **Whatever** you like. WORLDWIDE. Start a new thread on your question. Please do not discuss ebay in THIS forum as we have a separate and popular Forum for that discussion.

Moderator: Volunteer Moderator Team

Post Reply
User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

They were a very fine set - typical of that high-water mark of recess printed British Colonials of George VI. (Incidentally, I have another spare set of them mint. You'd be welcome to it if you'd like to arrange to collect it.)

They're not at all common on commercial cover, and I've never seen anything higher than the 3 Anna value, serving the Registration rate. Here is what I can show:

Image

SG 71 - for the postcard rate

Image

SG 74, and

Image

SG 72 and 76 (mauled, unfortunately)
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

So to Travancore, the last of the heavyweight Uglies. If you have any Uglies in your collection, chances are at least one of them is from Travancore. Like its next-door neighbour, Cochin, Travancore had a very high literacy rate, and the population seems to have spent its time writing to each other.

As we work (that being the operative word) through Travancore, you'll notice some odd gaps in what I can show. The reason for this is simple: I just can't love Travancore. Its designs were insipid at best, and pretty horrible at worst. It also calls for a lot of watermark-detecting and perforation-measuring; these are not your standard occupations for an Uglies collector. However, if you can't resist a nice mixed 'unpicked' lot (I can't, if it's of Uglies), you tend to acquire Travancore willy-nilly.

A point of interest for the thematic collector. All the stamps of Travancore include in their designs a stylized conch shell, the State emblem.

One more bit of background you may need: the currency. Travancore retained its own currency of 16 Cash = 1 Chuckram, and 28 Chuckrams = 1 Rupee. (Perhaps this was intended to torment bookkeepers converting chuckrams into Indian annas; there were 16 annas to the rupee.)

Travancore got off to an inoffensive start in 1888, with three values on laid paper:

Image

Over the next 50 years, Travancore fleshed out this short set, adding values down to 4 Cash and up to 14 Chuckrams, on three different broad types of watermark, and in a maddening range of shades for the individual values:

Image

The occasional combination of watermark, value and (in the last years of the set) perforation is scarce, but for the most part, these are very common stamps. (The 3 Chuckrams is overprinted for official use. More, much more of that later.)

The ½ Chuckram value was surcharged in 1906:

Image

and further surcharges followed in 1921 and 1932:

Image

As whatever stock was on hand was surcharged, the 1932s include some scarce combinations of value, shade and watermark.

In November 1931, Travancore issued its first commemorative set, for the coronation of the Maharaja. This was only the third commemorative set from India, after the February 1931 Inauguration of New Delhi set for British India, and the March 1931 Investiture set of Jaipur. (I know which I prefer ...)

Image

In 1937, Travancore issued another commemorative set, marking the opening of the temples in the State to castes which had previously been excluded:

Image

By this time, Travancore had bought a new perforator, gauging 12½; it was used for part of this set, and compound perforations exit - some scarce.
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

In 1939, Travancore issued a long set for the Maharaja's 27th birthday; this became the definitive set for the next ten years or so:

Image

By this time, Travancore had yet another perforator, gauging 11, and all three were used on this set, sometimes yielding compound perforations. There were also just about every form of perforation error, in various perforation gauges, you can imagine. Few of these are really outrageously expensive.

Two stamps were issued for the Maharaja's 29th birthday:

Image

and one for his 34th, in 1946:

Image

These all exist in various perforations and compound, and all sorts of perforation errors again. These are SG 76ba - on the expensive side for a Travancore perforation error at £40 a pair.

The last ordinary stamp Travancore issued, in 1946, was a bit of an oddity: an official stamp, overprinted SPECIAL to revalidate it for general use:

Image

These are not particularly common in their cheapest perforation, and quite uncommon in the rarer variations.

And having the raised the subject of the officials ...
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

Travancore began overprinting its current stamps On S S S (On State Service) for official use in 1911. It introduced a wider setting of the overprint in 1926:

Image

Narrow and wide settings

In the narrow settings, all three types of watermark are represented - but not necessarily on all values. (There may be unrecorded combinations of overprint type and watermark lurking in collections out there.)

In addition to the inevitable perforation errors, there were frequent small slip-ups in the lettering of the overprint. After all, it's easy enough to insert an 'O' or an 'S' upside down:

Image

Right S upright - Right S inverted

Some values were overprinted in blue. They are rather subtle - best seen alongside a black overprint - and very scarce.

In 1930, the post office decided it was time for a change to the overprint, and did a little experimenting:

Image

Some types on some values are very scarce: none of these are, sadly.

These experiments seem to have been unsatisfactory, and later that year, the authorities settled on this, which came in three sizes:

Image

Wide and Normal spacings

(The very Wide spacing is uncommon.)

Once again, there was the proliferation of perforation errors and inverted etc letters:

Image

Inverted O - normal O

By the way, the 3 Chuckram value gets my vote as one of the very ugliest of the Uglies: even I can't find anything nice to say about it.

The picture is further confused by the introduction, late in the life of the overprint, of the new 12½ gauge perforator, yielding more scarce varieties.

And in 1932, 6 Cash, 12 Cash and 1 Chuckram 8 Cash surcharges were applied to all the old stock, regardless of overprint or watermark. (And why should the printers have worried about such things?) This inevitably produced some considerable rarities, although the following aren't:

Image
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

Into the home stretch now ...

In 1939, the authorities decided to scrap the old On S S S overprints, and replace them with the English word SERVICE. They overprinted the 6 Cash and ¾ Chuckram values:

Image

The 6 Cash is found perf 11, 12 and 12½ - all of them common. The ¾ Chuckram is quite scarce mint for some reason, and still scarce used perf 12½ or compound; perf 12 it's fairly available. The block of the ¾ Chuckram value above is SG O94d (compound perf) in the top row, and SG O94b (perf 12) in the bottom row.

The ¾ and 1½ Chuckram values were also overprinted in 1940.

The long, Maharaja's 27th Birthday set was then overprinted also. The overprint comes in two forms: the earlier version set in loose type, and the later from stereos. For many years, Gibbons didn't distinguish between these. It does now, and the loose type overprints seem to be distinctly less common.

Image

Loose type - Stereos

Again, these stamps can be found with the three different perforation gauges in use at the time, and in compound perforations. Some of the perforation errors are quite expensive, by Travancore standards, but few of the perforation varieties, including the compounds, are outrageous. (The 1½ Chuckram value with compound perf is rated at 30p used.)

The two Maharaja's Birthday issues, of 1941 and 1946 were also overprinted,

Image

SG O103-4

Image

SG O108

and surcharges similar to the 1943 surcharges on the ordinary stamps were also made:

Image

SG O105-7

There was the usual assortment of perforation varieties and errors in these stamps, as well.

That concludes the separate existence of Travancore. In July 1949, it was merged with its neighbour Cochin, to form the United States of Travancore-Cochin. This now (with a section of formerly British India) forms the state of Kerala.

You may have noticed the complete absence of covers in this run through Travancore. I would have liked to show some, but the fact is, I don't have any. Used, Travancore is common; on commercial cover, it's an entirely different matter. Gibbons rates the ordinary stamps on cover at from 10 times and the Service stamps at from 15 times normal. I think this is rather low, except for FDCs of the 1930s commemoratives. However, note that this does not apply to postal stationery, which is not difficult.

Next, Travancore-Cochin ...
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

Travancore-Cochin is the (I'm sorry, I can't resist it) the Ugly Duckling of the Uglies: thoroughly unloved. It came into being very late, on the 1st July 1949, and with only a couple of exceptions, its output consisted of surcharges on Travancore, which itself is not well loved. All the same, Travancore-Cochin offers all sorts of opportunities for the collector prepared to get down and dirty with the perf gauge and lighter fluid.

Travancore-Cochin began life with a set of surcharges in Indian currency on the then current Travancore definitives:

Image

Like the basic Travancore stamps, these are found with all the various gauges of perforation, as well as two new ones, 13½ and 14. The latter tend to be quite rare. There are also numerous errors of perforation and the surcharges (both of spelling and position):

Image

SG 3ec

Most of these errors are quite reasonably priced - SG 3ec above is rated at £5 at the moment. When they began to surface at time of issue, Mr L.E. Dawson, one of the biggest guns in Uglies philately, wrote a very stiff letter to the Travancore-Cochin authorities, suggesting they pull their socks up ... get a grip on themselves, and stop it.

In the absence of evidence either way, I suspect the errors were simply due to carelessness, rather than any desire to exploit collectors. It's easy enough to understand, I think: the printers knew that their jobs were not going to last very long, the authorities looked on the stamps as no more than a stop-gap before independent Indian stamps were introduced ... and why throw away a perfectly good stamp, just because the surcharge was inverted? On the other hand, it is true that most of the errors are more common mint than used, which suggests that someone recognized their potential.

Contrast this, well, mess, with the few Cochin stamps that were overprinted for Travancore-Cochin:

Image

SG 9, 11

There are some missing stop and inverted overprint errors recorded, and even overprints on the wrong stamps. But even SG 11 has only four errors recorded, against 21 'a' numbers for SG 1, the 2 Pies surcharge on Travancore.

There followed in 1950, the only stamps specifically for Travancore-Cochin:

Image

Most unusually for Cochin and Travancore, these stamps are scarcer used than mint. Treat any used copies with caution.
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

However, it's with the Service issues that Travancore-Cochin really began to hits its straps. Not only were there two distinct fonts used for the SERVICE overprints on the basic stamps:

Image

SG Types O1 and O2

but the Travancore printers used supplies of Cochin watermark paper to print certain values, with both overprint fonts. The papers are easy enough to distinguish. The Travancore paper is thin, with one or more conch shells per stamp; the Cochin paper is thicker, and has a sheet watermark. You can see the difference in papers in the following scan:

Image

Travancore paper at left - Cochin paper at right

And then there are the 'a' numbers ... 24 of them for SG O10, for example. There were spelling errors:

Image

SG O2ba - 'FOUB PIES' for 'FOUR PIES'

and just about every sort of perforation error you can imagine: imperf between horizontal pairs

Image

SG O6da

and vertical pairs

Image

SG O11cb

and even blocks of four imperf between horizontally and vertically

Image

SG O10fc
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

And to wind up Travancore-Cochin, here are two examples of combination covers, of Cochin stamps used with Travancore-Cochin stamps, both (significantly?) from former Cochin territory.

First an ordinary cover:

Image

Cochin SG 115 with Travancore-Cochin SG 5d

and a Service cover with a similar franking:

Image

Cochin SG O98 with Travancore-Cochin SG O13

So that concludes the tangled web of Travancore and Travancore-Cochin. If I've dealt with them at greater length, it was partly out of guilt (because I don't really like them) and partly because, for all that, they do hold great philatelic interest for anyone looking for a new, and accessible, collecting area.
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

At long last, Wadhwan, the last of the Uglies. A rather good example of the Wonderful World of the Uglies, too: only one design, first appeared in 1888, withdrawn 1 January 1895 ... and printed from seven lithographic stones, with six varieties of perforation, and three different types of paper. Just as you thought it was safe to go back in the water ...

The notes in Gibbons are quite extensive, and the seeker after more knowledge should start there. If that leaves you thirsting for more, seek out a copy of the India Study Circle Wadhwan Handbook (but not from me. Regrettably, I don't yet have a copy.)

The individual stamps can be identified from the combination of the individual lithographic stone, the perforations, and the paper.

Stones I and II may or may not show a dot between the words WADHWAN and STATE. Here are SG 1 (without the dot) and a horribly mangled copy of SG 1b (with the dot):

Image

Stone III had a hairline after the word HALF in the bottom label:

Image

and is therefore SG 3

Stones IV to VII all had the dot, and showed progressive deterioration in the V-shaped shading at the left hand end of the pennant, with the shading eventually disappearing altogether.

A small note on the cancellations: These are examples of the genuine cancellations normally found on Wadhwan:

Image

They are normally black, but also occur in violet. They were probably used to CTO stamps. Actual postal cancellations were similar, but much larger. The cancellation on the SG 3 above is a fake. Genuine covers are rare: they usually sell for between £500 and £1000, and should only be bought with a certificate, recent BPA for preference.

As you can see, condition is a serious issue with Wadhwan. Full perforations and no thins are a definite plus. Wing margins are common, and not to be despised: they can help assign a loose stamp to its correct stone.
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
OttawaMike
I was online for our Birthday Number 3!
I was online for our Birthday Number 3!
Posts: 13800
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 20:02
Location: Big Rideau Lake, Canada

Post by OttawaMike »

Convenient, isn't it, that the ugliest of them all comes last in alphabetical order. :D

This has gotta be one of the best threads ever to grace the Stampboards cyberspace. Thanks Tony!

User avatar
vandemonia
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 555
Joined: 31 May 2008 17:17
Location: Devonport, Auckland, New Zealand
Contact:

Post by vandemonia »

Tony:

This exposition of the Uglies has been educational, addictive, fascinating and fabulous! All good things must end so they say. I for one am bereft now that you have reached Wadhwan.

I think you should collect the Indian Convention States (in depth!)

Cheers! Applause! Laurels! Plaudits!

John
.
My "The Story of the Middle Ages (500-1500)" - "Global Warming and Climate Change" - "Red Cross Postal History WW1."

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

And thank you Mike, for the encouragement!

But as to the Ugliest of all, I have one more trick up my sleeve. Just wait a few moments ...
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

vandemonia wrote:Tony:

This exposition of the Uglies has been educational, addictive, fascinating and fabulous! All good things must end so they say. I for one am bereft now that you have reached Wadhwan.

I think you should collect the Indian Convention States (in depth!)

Cheers! Applause! Laurels! Plaudits!

John
And thank you, too John. But no, no, a thousand times, NO. Not the Convention States!
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

That concludes the recognized Uglies. But they wouldn't be the Uglies if there weren't some loose ends.

It seems likely that the state of Tonk in Rajasthan also issued stamps. They are extremely rare - I've never seen them - and haven't yet been admitted to the Gibbons Canon.

The state of Baraundha once at least prepared essays for stamps, but it's unclear whether they were put into use. They probably weren't, but who knows? Perhaps at this very minute, some earnest researcher is rummaging through the State archives.

These One Anna stamps purport to be from Bikaner State in Rajasthan:

Image

but they are most likely fantasies, or at best were essays that never came to anything.

There were 500 to 600 other States in India under the British, many of which had their own postal systems. Who knows if there are any others lurking, which did quietly issue stamps, all unknown to the outside world.

I can understand if this little romp through the Uglies hasn't convinced the doubters. The Uglies are strong meat. You may prefer your stamps inscribed in proper God-fearing scripts, denominated in currencies that don't tax the little grey cells, printed in recess by respectable printers in London. I feel sorry for you if you do. For the others, why not give the Uglies a whirl? You have nothing to lose but your chains ...
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

Now I seem to recall that, in a moment of lightheadedness, I may have told Vandemonia that I would post up my Cochin covers ... Here, anyway, is a first instalment:

Image

SG 11

Image

SG 16

Image

SG 17

and

Image

SG 18

I haven't yet been over these in company with Pai. Maybe some day ...
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

Next batch of Cochin covers:

Image

SG 37 and 43 - badly bashed about, but it must have been an enormous letter to need 9½ Annas in postage

Image

SG 66

Image

SG 76, and

Image

SG 77 and SG 97

I admit to a certain, inexplicable, weakness for surcharges on cover ...
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
vandemonia
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 555
Joined: 31 May 2008 17:17
Location: Devonport, Auckland, New Zealand
Contact:

Post by vandemonia »

Tony:

You've certainly ended on a high note! For me Cochin has it all! De gustibus non est disputandum!

John
.
My "The Story of the Middle Ages (500-1500)" - "Global Warming and Climate Change" - "Red Cross Postal History WW1."

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

vandemonia wrote:Tony:

You've certainly ended on a high note! For me Cochin has it all! De gustibus non est disputandum!

John
Well, well: quot homines, tot sententiae ...

I haven't finished with Cochin yet, though, John :twisted:
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
vandemonia
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 555
Joined: 31 May 2008 17:17
Location: Devonport, Auckland, New Zealand
Contact:

Post by vandemonia »

Tony:

Once again I have spoken too soon ... I'll leave the final word to Cochin, your good self and Terence.

Johannes
.
My "The Story of the Middle Ages (500-1500)" - "Global Warming and Climate Change" - "Red Cross Postal History WW1."

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

Aha, Johannes, I see you are a man of rare taste and discernment. I will start posting up the rest shortly.

Antonius
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

Here we go again:

Image

SG 91

Image

SG 100

Image

SG 117 and SG 91 - the pictorials are not particularly common on cover

Image

SG 108

and more surcharges to round off the ordinary covers:

Image

SG 124

Obviously, someone has been raiding the archives at Trichur ...
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

And the Service covers:

Image

SG O14

Image

SG O58 and SG O69 - Ahh, surcharges at last!

Image

SG O73a

Image

SG O81, and lastly

Image

SG O95 and SG O98

Nothing outstanding, and they don't even begin to represent the stamps, but they do at least serve as examples of what's out there.
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

While I have my Ask Mr Ugly Man hat on, and on an altogether more sombre note, I've just posted this to the India Study Circle online:

eBay item 170271604078 from seller rin3073lo is a particularly nasty faked cover from Barwani.

It purports to be franked at the 1 Anna rate, with two pairs of ¼ Anna Devi Singh types, postmarked 1933.

Image

Image

The problems with the cover are that the stamps are from a post-War setting, probably Setting VI. The postmark cannot simply have the wrong year slugs inserted, because the large bilingual CDS of Barwani Town was retired around 1933, and certainly had not been in use for many years by the time these stamps were printed and released.

I suggested to the seller that he withdraw the item, or correct the description. I received this reply:

I am receiving lot of inquiry of barwani cover.
But none of them tells its a fake.

everyone has different opinion from their angle

so I am not going to withdrawn from my sell

Thanks
Mohammed
Bangladesh

I leave it to members to draw their own conclusions.
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
Eric Casagrande
5000 Great Posts - WHAT a Milestone!
5000 Great Posts - WHAT a Milestone!
Posts: 7300
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 16:22
Location: London, Ontario

Post by Eric Casagrande »

Well I received my India Study Circle membership package from the U.S. coordinator today, which included both 2008 issues of the publication, India Post, as well as the CD-Rom containing the remaining backissues of India Post.

It appears to be a very interesting publication. Although I have just quickly skimmed through it so far, I am looking forward to studying it in more detail.

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

India Post is always good value! But, Eric, just wait until you start working through the back issues on the CD :wink:

Tony
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
PeterS
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 15369
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 14:00
Location: Melbourne

Post by PeterS »

Tony,

Although I doubt I will ever become a fan of the Uglies I must congratulate you on this series.

Despite my best endeavours I have followed with rapt fascination. :) :roll:
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013, 2014, 2015

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

Peter, I guess that, even if I didn't win you over to the Dhar Side of the Force, it was still time well spent if this thread has provided a little interest!

Tony
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
vandemonia
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 555
Joined: 31 May 2008 17:17
Location: Devonport, Auckland, New Zealand
Contact:

Post by vandemonia »

Tony:

I enjoyed our little exchange in Latin yesterday evening! It reminded me of something I've not recalled for years. While learning Latin I was given this sentence to translate:

Da mihi sis crustum etruscum cum omnibus in eo.

It proved impossible for me even after hours with the grammars and the dictionaries.

Translation: "Give me a pizza with everything on it."

Learning, like philately (and your series of posts on the Uglies), expands the mind, and nourishes it!

John
.
My "The Story of the Middle Ages (500-1500)" - "Global Warming and Climate Change" - "Red Cross Postal History WW1."

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

John, if you ever did Catullus, it puts me in mind of his Ode (Number whatever it was) to Lesbia,

Da mihi basia mille deinde centum ... etc

At my age, I think I'll go for the sis crustum etruscum rather than the basia mille. One has to watch the heart :cry:

Antonius Filius Mochudae Sancti Hominis
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
PeterS
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 15369
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 14:00
Location: Melbourne

Post by PeterS »

tonymacg wrote:Peter, I guess that, even if I didn't win you over to the Dhar Side of the Force, it was still time well spent if this thread has provided a little interest!

Tony
Tony, as I said, FASCINATING! However, I have enough to keep me busy with Australia, including States. :)
Peter
Hawthorn - AFL Premiers 1961, 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013, 2014, 2015

User avatar
vandemonia
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 555
Joined: 31 May 2008 17:17
Location: Devonport, Auckland, New Zealand
Contact:

Post by vandemonia »

Wise decision Tony!

Catullus is not my friend! Ditto for Plautus who caused me much pain and suffering in an earlier existence!!

And ... On a thread expounding the UGLIES, basia mille is probably inappropriate ... unless you're their mother of course!

Johannes Barbarus
.
My "The Story of the Middle Ages (500-1500)" - "Global Warming and Climate Change" - "Red Cross Postal History WW1."

User avatar
Eric Casagrande
5000 Great Posts - WHAT a Milestone!
5000 Great Posts - WHAT a Milestone!
Posts: 7300
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 16:22
Location: London, Ontario

Post by Eric Casagrande »

Well ... I am in the disc now .... wow ... the index is well over 200 pages (fortunately in alphabetical order), in length!

My mission - to print out all the Dhar State related items and store them in the legal folder containing my other recently acquired Dhar State papers and maps. :D

It's a process. :D

User avatar
vandemonia
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 555
Joined: 31 May 2008 17:17
Location: Devonport, Auckland, New Zealand
Contact:

Post by vandemonia »

Eric:

I'm still waiting for mine to arrive. Being in Australia means one has to join through the UK. So ... I have to wait ... be patient! Unfortunately, I have been allocated more 'time past', than 'time future'!

Cheers!

John
.
My "The Story of the Middle Ages (500-1500)" - "Global Warming and Climate Change" - "Red Cross Postal History WW1."

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

vandemonia wrote:Eric:

I'm still waiting for mine to arrive. Being in Australia means one has to join through the UK. So ... I have to wait ... be patient! Unfortunately, I have been allocated more 'time past', than 'time future'!

Cheers!

John
John, if the thirst for knowledge becomes too acute, I've loaded my disc onto my PC, so you're welcome to borrow it ad interim.

(Eheu! Eheu! We never had Plautus. Catullus in Year 11, though. A most unsuitable choice for a class of 16 year-old boys. The horror of standing up in front of the class to read out one's translation of Da mi basia mille deinde centum, deinde mille ... Left me scarred for life.)
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
vandemonia
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 555
Joined: 31 May 2008 17:17
Location: Devonport, Auckland, New Zealand
Contact:

Post by vandemonia »

Dear Catullus:

Then let amorous kisses dwell
On our lips, begin and tell
A Thousand, and a Hundred, score
an Hundred, and a Thousand more,
Till another Thousand smother
That, and that wipe off another.


JUST ANOTHER DIM MEMORY! I'm certainly glad I'm not sixteen anymore. But I wish I could have retained the energy!

John
.
My "The Story of the Middle Ages (500-1500)" - "Global Warming and Climate Change" - "Red Cross Postal History WW1."

User avatar
Eric Casagrande
5000 Great Posts - WHAT a Milestone!
5000 Great Posts - WHAT a Milestone!
Posts: 7300
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 16:22
Location: London, Ontario

Post by Eric Casagrande »

Tony .... question about India Post abbreviations ....

On the index list, for Dhar, under Typeset Dhar, there is a description reading as follows:

- (A.J.M. Meadows - meeting) ..... India Post No. 77; Page N83/10

What is N83/10?

I looked all through Issue 77 and can't find either Dhar or the mention of a meeting discusing something Dhar related.

And it starts off on page 85 so ... it doesn't mean page 83. :D

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

Eric, I really can't explain it. My only thought is that perhaps it refers to someone's notes on a meeting of the ISC at around the time of Vol. 77. It could well be that Joe Meadows did a show-and-tell on Dhar to coincide with his articles. The only thing I can think of is to email Max Smith and ask him what the reference is to.
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

vandemonia wrote:Dear Catullus:

Then let amorous kisses dwell
On our lips, begin and tell
A Thousand, and a Hundred, score
an Hundred, and a Thousand more,
Till another Thousand smother
That, and that wipe off another.


JUST ANOTHER DIM MEMORY! I'm certainly glad I'm not sixteen anymore. But I wish I could have retained the energy!

John
And can you imagine standing up in front of ten or so your male peers, doing a halting construe of those lines?

I remember another occasion in Year 11 Latin. Our teacher was a very extrovert Englishman with a very loud voice under normal circumstances. He was trying to elicit the word 'bosom' as a translation, from one of my classmates, but the boy gagged at it. The teacher shouted at the top of his voice, probably audible over a large part of metropolitan Melbourne, 'Bosom, Newbury! Say it, boy, bosom!' The boy Newbury was never allowed to forget it. I believe he ran away from home shortly after and became a buying clerk or something similar.
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
crosscrescent
Founder Member Joined April 2007
Founder Member Joined April 2007
Posts: 39751
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 13:59
Location: Klang, Selangor, Malaysia

Post by crosscrescent »

Tony,

Really liked looking at those covers, especially the ones with the circular stripped cancellations. You must have a fantastic collection of the Indian States. Saw one lot of Indian States stamps still available (that is a few days ago) by Fletches1 (21st Century auctions). They look nice but would not like to collect stamps with holes in them - like my stamps whole.

Cheers
Andrew

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

Ah, Andrew, we'll never convert you into a proper Uglies collector!

And worse things happened. After all, they used to tear a corner of these

Image

Afghan stamps to cancel them :wink:

Tony
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
crosscrescent
Founder Member Joined April 2007
Founder Member Joined April 2007
Posts: 39751
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 13:59
Location: Klang, Selangor, Malaysia

Post by crosscrescent »

Tony,

I guess I'll stick to the mint ones and reprints (even if they are fake) - can't bear to see all that colour and the designs (especially those which were handprinted) mutilated like that.

Cheers
Andrew

User avatar
vandemonia
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 555
Joined: 31 May 2008 17:17
Location: Devonport, Auckland, New Zealand
Contact:

Post by vandemonia »

Andrew:

Have you seen how our 'modern' postal authorities often cancel and treat our mail??!! I doubt things have improved much! Perhaps the old Afghan authorities could be used to bring about improvements in modern practice!!!!!!

Cheers!

John
.
My "The Story of the Middle Ages (500-1500)" - "Global Warming and Climate Change" - "Red Cross Postal History WW1."

User avatar
crosscrescent
Founder Member Joined April 2007
Founder Member Joined April 2007
Posts: 39751
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 13:59
Location: Klang, Selangor, Malaysia

Post by crosscrescent »

John,

I suppose you got a point there. But in the case of the Indian States, the holes were a standard procedure. I still want to admire the whole design. Guess it is just me.

Cheers
Andrew

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

Eric Casagrande wrote:Well ... I am in the disc now .... wow ... the index is well over 200 pages (fortunately in alphabetical order), in length!

My mission - to print out all the Dhar State related items and store them in the legal folder containing my other recently acquired Dhar State papers and maps. :D

It's a process. :D
So, Eric, now that you've come over to the Dark Side, I suppose we can start addressing you as Dhar Vader ...
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

Anyway, having started this thread, and having worked through all the States, I thought perhaps I might now use it to look a little more closely at some of the States, to see if I can win over any more souls.

As my Bhopal stockbook was to hand,

The early lithographed types were all drawn by hand onto the stones, which makes them great candidates for plating. Here is a sheet of Bhopal SG 2:

Image

It should be inscribed around the centre HH NAWAB SHAH JAHAN BEGAM, but several spelling errors crept in:

'BFGAM' at Row 3/1
'BEGAN' at Row 2/2 and 4/4, and
' EGAM' at row 4/5

Incidentally, Her Highness Nawab Shah Jahan Begam, the ruler of Bhopal was doubly distinguished: not only was she a female Muslim ruler, but, apparently a very feisty character, and a great friend and confidante of Queen Victoria. Shah Jahan Begam was succeeded by her daughter, Nawab Sultan Jahan Begam in 1901, after her mother and her mother's friend died.

And here is a sheet of Bhopal SG 5a:

Image

You may just be able to make out Shah Jahan Begam's embossed insignia in the centres of the stamps.

These stamps had no spelling errors, so the lithographer received his elephant stamp, but a bit later in 1886, SG 54 more than made up. Here are the bottom three rows of the sheet:

Image

All the 'N's in these stamps are reversed, and
'NAWA' at Row 1/3-4
'NWABA' at Row 2/4
'NAWAA' at Row 1/2, and
'BEGAAM' and 'NWABA' at Row 2/3

Someone's attention was wandering as they got towards the end of the sheet :evil:
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

Covers of these early Bhopal are not as common as one might expect. After all, Bhopal was a large and influential state (and the city of Bhopal is now the capital of the modern state of Madhya Pradesh). The covers are attractive, though. Here are a few:

Image

SG 29 - one of the most common of the earlies on cover. It also raises that old chestnut: if the stamp is inverted on the cover, do you show the stamp right way up, and the cover inverted, or the cover right way up, and the stamp inverted? I chose the second: any thoughts?

Image

SG 37 - again, a common enough stamp, but pleasing on cover

and finally

Image

SG 64 - off cover, these are dead common; on cover, they tend to be a bit elusive
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
Eric Casagrande
5000 Great Posts - WHAT a Milestone!
5000 Great Posts - WHAT a Milestone!
Posts: 7300
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 16:22
Location: London, Ontario

Post by Eric Casagrande »

tonymacg wrote:
Eric Casagrande wrote:Well ... I am in the disc now .... wow ... the index is well over 200 pages (fortunately in alphabetical order), in length!

My mission - to print out all the Dhar State related items and store them in the legal folder containing my other recently acquired Dhar State papers and maps. :D

It's a process. :D
So, Eric, now that you've come over to the Dark Side, I suppose we can start addressing you as Dhar Vader ...
I've been called worse things in my life. :lol: :lol: :lol:

User avatar
Eric Casagrande
5000 Great Posts - WHAT a Milestone!
5000 Great Posts - WHAT a Milestone!
Posts: 7300
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 16:22
Location: London, Ontario

Post by Eric Casagrande »

Interesting note ...

The initial 2008 issue of India Post which I received in my members package, had a pleasant surprise considering my main collecting interest is the Philippines.

On pages 14-16, is an article entitled: "India Used in Philippines", written by fellow I.P.P.S. member, Geoffrey Lewis. I have a copy of the hardcover book casually mentioned in the opening paragraph of the article, which Lewis co-authored along with my good friend and other fellow I.P.P.S. member, Don Peterson.

User avatar
tonymacg
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 11678
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 23:36
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by tonymacg »

Yes, the spread of 'India', broadly interpreted, is enormous. I doubt that anyone could do it all properly. Most of us, anyway, can only settle on a corner or two.
de Selby lives, and will return

User avatar
Eric Casagrande
5000 Great Posts - WHAT a Milestone!
5000 Great Posts - WHAT a Milestone!
Posts: 7300
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 16:22
Location: London, Ontario

Post by Eric Casagrande »

tonymacg wrote:Eric, I really can't explain it. My only thought is that perhaps it refers to someone's notes on a meeting of the ISC at around the time of Vol. 77. It could well be that Joe Meadows did a show-and-tell on Dhar to coincide with his articles. The only thing I can think of is to email Max Smith and ask him what the reference is to.
I don't have Max's email, so I tried emailing the U.S. coordinator (but haven't heard back from him as of yet).

However, while printing off some pages tonight, I made the following discovery --

The "N" appears to represent the Newsletter, of which there is one within India Post number 104 in the archives.

Now having solved that mystery, there is no such beast listed within Issue 77. :D :lol:

Post Reply

Return to “Discuss stamps - and *anything* at ALL happening with stamps”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], GrantClifford, ViccyVFU and 9 guests