Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

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Re: Alwar Postage Stamps and Postmarks

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

banknoteguy wrote:
20 Sep 2020 23:17
Joy,

Thanks for the quick authoritative reply! So what resources do you recommend rather than SG for attributing I.F.S. stamps? I know about the Indian Study Circle but have not joined (yet). What should I consider trying to locate in terms of reference books?
This is the primary reference on Alwar stamps and postmarks.

Alwar Postage Stamps and Postmarks
Alwar Postage Stamps and Postmarks
Alwar Postage Stamps and Postmarks
Raymond John Benns.
India Study Circle for Philately, Eastleigh, England 1982 2nd Ed.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by psphani »

banknoteguy wrote:
20 Sep 2020 23:17
Joy,

Thanks for the quick authoritative reply! So what resources do you recommend rather than SG for attributing I.F.S. stamps? I know about the Indian Study Circle but have not joined (yet). What should I consider trying to locate in terms of reference books?
SG is required for identifying the I.F.S stamps. If you need to dig deeper into the stones, dies, positions, varieties, cancels etc on each state then there are reference books/ articles on almost all of them which you can find in the online library of India Study Circle.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by RogerE »

As usual, Joy promptly supplies precise details — a great service, and a fine way to make a lasting reference-worthy record on this thread :D

A note to new member banknoteguy. To fit in with protocols, you need to make a post on the thread where new members introduce themselves: the current page of new member introductions is at
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10277&start=24400

If you do that, you will let others know a bit about you, and that will make everyone happy :)

/RogerE :D

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by banknoteguy »

Thanks to those informative replies. I did as RogerE suggested and posted a short intro. I still am getting used to how this forum works.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by RogerE »

banknoteguy wrote:
21 Sep 2020 05:53
Thanks to those informative replies. I did as RogerE suggested and posted a short intro. I still am getting used to how this forum works.
Thanks banknoteguy, I think you might have forgotten to use the "Submit" button, because I don't see that post at the moment. ;)

/RogerE

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by banknoteguy »

I am not sure what happened. I am pretty sure I did submit but ... Anyway I did another one and definitely submitted it this time and saw it in the thread. But will go back later and see if it is still there.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by banknoteguy »

Joy replied to DJCMH about a Jammu and Kashmir 1883 ¼A coffee on toned wove paper imperf. SG 141 (above).

Is the cancel on this CTO or is it a postally used example?

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by RogerE »

Excellent!— banknoteguy is already asking serious/well-informed questions :D

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mmaddury »

banknoteguy wrote:
21 Sep 2020 13:33
Joy replied to DJCMH about a Jammu and Kashmir 1883 ¼A coffee on toned wove paper imperf. SG 141 (above).

Is the cancel on this CTO or is it a postally used example?
It is a genuine postally valid 3-ring cancellation, almost certainly a postally used example.

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Re: Séfi and Mortimer Type 77 Datestamp of Jammu

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

banknoteguy wrote:
21 Sep 2020 13:33
Joy replied to DJCMH about a Jammu and Kashmir 1883 ¼A coffee on toned wove paper imperf. SG 141 (above).

Is the cancel on this CTO or is it a postally used example?
Image

The Séfi and Mortimer type 77 triple-circular datestamp (used Dec 1890–Oct 1894) of Jammu on JK 1883 ¼A SG 141, is an example commercial postal usage, most likely struck on a pair of SG 141.

The inner circle shows the post office name Jammu and the date Phagun 7 in the 2nd line (the 2-digit year was in the 3rd line but not visible here) in Takri script of Dogri language.

¼A was the postcard rate but the stamps of that denomination were hardly used for that purpose.
Most of the usage of the ¼A stamps were in pairs, to pay the basic letter postage for weight upto 5.83gm (½ tola) and scarcely in quadruples as postage for letters in 2nd weight step, between 5.83gm (½ tola) and 11.66gm (1 tola).

Pair of Jammu and Kashmir 1883 ¼A SG 141 Used on 1888 Leh–Hoshiyarpur Cover
Pair of Jammu and Kashmir 1883 ¼A SG 141 Used on 1888 Leh–Hoshiyarpur Cover

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Re: Alwar 1877 1A SG 2a Roulettes

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

banknoteguy wrote:
20 Sep 2020 22:26
So this looks original to me except that that perfs don't quite look rouletted but then I have not seen too many rouletted stamps.


Image
Alwar 1901 ¼A SG 5 was perforated, not rouletted.

This is how roulettes on Alwar 1877 1st issue look like.

Roulettes on Alwar 1877 1A SG 2a
Roulettes on Alwar 1877 1A SG 2a

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by banknoteguy »

Thanks for posting that image of rouletting. Very nice image and nice block of stamps too.

I decided to see if I could verify that Alwar SG5 is perf.12. Did not look promising at first but see image below of this stamp on top of the perf. 12 position. Very crude perfs and some missing but dead on P.12.
Alwar P.12.jpg

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by pauljames2u »

Cochin anchal , SG 070.
Cochin anchal , SG 070.
One of the rarities of Cochin state

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by shivnair »

I just got a copy of a book I had been searching for a long time "The Mohammed Kamal Safdar Collection of. Indian States Revenues" This is effectively a well printed record of the Saudi collector's personal award winning collection, but is possibly the only book (that I am aware of) of state revenues in colour. I thoroughly enjoyed it
Attachments
IMG_3656.jpg
IMG_3657.jpg
IMG_3658.jpg
IMG_3659.jpg
#shivshankarnair

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by rakeshk »

I don't collect fiscals, but beautifully illustrated, looks great - nice acquisition shiv nair!

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by shivnair »

Thank You Rakesh, and to all those who have PM'd me, asking where i acquired this book from, I bought this on ebay. The book is out of print and i believe only 500 were printed, so the trick would be to keep an eye open. Ebay would be the logical starting point. Happy hunting
#shivshankarnair

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by shivnair »

For those of you , who like me, are keen to see award winning ststes. collections, there is a virtual cornucopia of states materials at the sight of Virtual. stampex
Pl. see.https://www.museumofphilately.com/collections
for some incredible championship collections of about 5 states .
#shivshankarnair

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by banknoteguy »

shivnair,

Thanks for posting that link. Those are indeed excellent exhibits! I saw in my copy of SG's 2018 Indian States catalogue that one of the exhibitors W. Danforth Walker and another person were advertising an expertising service strictly for I.F.S. stamps. I wonder that there are that many collectors of this material to make such a service viable?

ISES adv
ISES adv.jpg

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by shivnair »

Hi, BNG
I believe that there a quite a few of us around, if the competition to get choice material at auctions is anything to go by. LOL
I travel extensively and always find a fellow states collector in even the most obscure places. The strangest was a Cochin collector in Kiribati.
#shivshankarnair

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by RogerE »

May I make a supportive remark?
Appreciation of the fascinating (and challenging) has no national boundaries.
Pursuits of the mind transcend artificial borders and unite our humanity.

/RogerE :D

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by rakeshk »

pauljames2u wrote:
28 Sep 2020 16:00
Image

One of the rarities of Cochin state
Hi Paul James,

Nice item, however this issue is quite infamous for cleaned cancels, so would definitely get a BPA cert to verify.

-Rakesh

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by rakeshk »

This just arrived. Block of 4 Cochin SG O21 unused, with varieties. Block of 4, with SG O21a ("Pies for pies") variety (R4/8), but curiously also has Ovpt Type O3 double on all 4 stamps, including the SG O21a "Pies for pies"! Ovpt type O3 double is shown as not known in SG catalog as unused, so that in itself is quite rare, but the SG O21a & SG O21c combination on R4/8 is probably unique & extremely rare!

Image

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by psphani »

Auctioned today by Stanley Gibbons - Jhalawar SG 1a on cover - Highest ever realization in auction!

Hammer Price :- £1500 + £300 (20% commission) = £1800!! ~ USD 2300

https://auctions.stanleygibbons.com/5919_1-lot-1256-i-f-s-jh ... tail&year=

"1889 (AU 22) combination usage of India ½a green postal stationery envelope to Delhi, additionally franked by 1886-90 1p BLUE-GREEN (Type 1) paying internal postage and tied by bold circular intaglio seal, the indicium with JHALRAPATAN British Indian squared circle of the exchange office. Arrival backstamp of "26 AU 89". Slight soiling and creasing, backflap torn, still a fine and very rare usage of the 1p blue-green."


Jhalawar SG1a Cover
Jhalawar SG1a Cover

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

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CMJ wrote:
09 Oct 2020 03:41

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Understood. Sorry I had missed this notice earlier. Iam not able to edit the previous post, but will take care in future.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by banknoteguy »

Can someone post examples of their album pages for I.F.S. issues? Is there a standard source? Or does everyone make their own?

I looked at Steiner pages but they follow Scott which I notice is quite a bit different than SG.

I may just work on design types for each state as a start, so I may make up my own.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by RogerE »

A comment from the sidelines: Since the catalogues by SG and Scott do such a poor job of treating the Indian Feudatory States stamps accurately and informatively, it seems to me that it makes sense for serious collectors to write up their own pages as their collections develop.

After all, if you have a multiple, or a usage on cover, or a specimen, or several stamps from different positions on the sheet, or revenues, or an identified forgery, wouldn't you want to accommodate such items in your display? That would require flexibility and originality in arranging items in your own writeup, and predesigned pages (whether commercially produced or designed in advance by yourself) will surely not accommodate all the actual items that come into your collection.

(Exactly the same principles apply to any "serious" collection in any field, not just Indian Feudatory States. I do my own display writeup in each area I collect, first accumulating material, then arranging into a display, then later adding additional pages or even replacing earlier pages by new pages, as further items are added to the collection. It's partly a matter of timing, and the willingness to extend and revise when necessary, but it produces a satisfying, individualised result. Use a catalogue as a guide, but not as a constraint.)

/RogerE :D

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by banknoteguy »

RogerE,

I think what you said makes a lot of sense. I am relatively new to stamp collecting so I am trying different things with respect to organizing the items I buy.

Clearly no "Standard" type album page is going to accommodate multiples or covers or parts of covers or in the case of I.F.S., stamps with odd/unusual/large margins. But I like the idea of set of base designs on an attractively laid out page. I am leaning toward the front side being standard catalogue items and the back (or extra pages) being studies/covers/multiples etc. that are fully custom designed.

I am hoping that one or more members of this groups will post some images of their "pages." So, I can see some examples of what has been done with this particular area. I am hoping to reduce the amount of "replacing earlier" pages but realize that some replacing is likely to happen no matter how clever I am at organizing it to begin with.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by pauljames2u »

rakeshk wrote:
05 Oct 2020 09:45
pauljames2u wrote:
28 Sep 2020 16:00
Image

One of the rarities of Cochin state
Hi Paul James,

Nice item, however this issue is quite infamous for cleaned cancels, so would definitely get a BPA cert to verify.

-Rakesh
Hi Rakesh,
The whole cochin anchal collection was reviewed by Philip Kins when he was attending the international philatelic exhibition in India.
Regards
paul

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mmaddury »

Actually, SG does a good job of tracking the Indian Feudatory States. What is your basis for the claim below?
RogerE wrote:
15 Oct 2020 02:15
A comment from the sidelines: Since the catalogues by SG and Scott do such a poor job of treating the Indian Feudatory States stamps accurately and informatively...
SG is a catalog and as such is expected to provide a reasonably detailed overview of the area's issued stamps in order of year of issue, major varieties and errors, perforation varieties, paper types and such. No catalog can match detailed study aspects related to detailed paper type variation (horizontal vs vertical mesh on wove paper), detailed sub-settings, minor cliche variations etc. SG provides an excellent overview and also handles some detailed items very effectively. For ex: tracking the various settings of Bamra, the stones of Las Bela and Wadhwan and so on

SG gets a bad rap here. It is still the best catalog out there for the Indian Feudatory States regardless of any perceived or actual shortcomings it may have. Any information we have today is based on current information and it is subject to change based on new information. That does not mean the current information is wrong, it is just the best we have till we know more. Lastly SG is meant to serve a large audience of collectors many of whom don't necessarily care about detail to the nth degree (in fact several collections just track SG numbers). I care about such detail for the states I specialize in but I do see the huge value SG provides as a catalog.

The ISC exists for detailed study and the India Post is a rich treasure trove of very detailed information. Use that to guide your detailed analysis instead of complaining about SG. Publishing your new discoveries in the India Post is also a path to get SG to update their catalog.

I cannot comment on Scott since I never it use for my collecting areas.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mmaddury »

banknoteguy wrote:
14 Oct 2020 23:41
Can someone post examples of their album pages for I.F.S. issues? Is there a standard source? Or does everyone make their own?

I looked at Steiner pages but they follow Scott which I notice is quite a bit different than SG.

I may just work on design types for each state as a start, so I may make up my own.
Depends on what type of collection you are putting together. I specialize in a few Indian Feudatory States, but have material from most of them. For the ones I do not specialize in, I just follow the SG listing. I will cover a listing completely including mint stamps, sheets/blocks, used postage covers and unlisted varieties (if any).

For the states I specialize in, I like to set it up based on year of issue. For the most part, this matches SG listing order. When it does not, I follow what I believe to be the year of issue, but also tie it up to the SG numbers. In addition to the items listed above, I add detail related to sheet settings/sub-settings, postage rates/routes, uncommon destinations, minor paper varieties, overprint sizes, over print ink color and type (water v/s oil) etc. The list is endless, based on what you decide. SG cannot possibly list (or even know) all such information and neither can any catalog.

My suggestion - start with SG listing order (either pre-printed sheets or your own) and then modify them based on how you guide your collection. This is not static and is expected to evolve over time.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mmaddury »

banknoteguy,

If you are serious about pursuing the Feudatory States, you should definitely join the India Study Circle.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by banknoteguy »

mmaddury,

I joined the ISC a couple weeks ago. I have been pouring through the IP and auction materials. These alone could keep a person busy for years!

We will see how long this keeps me interested but there is no lack of things to study for the foreseeable future. :lol:

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by banknoteguy »

Mmaddury said
My suggestion - start with SG listing order (either pre-printed sheets or your own) and then modify them based on how you guide your collection. This is not static and is expected to evolve over time.
Good advice. I have started down this path. I am still hoping I can convince a few people to scan a page or two and post it! So, I will post my first two pages and a question. Is it considered appropriate to include images and text not directly related to stamps on a page?

I have not even mounted any stamps yet - though I have maybe 50 or so that I have purchased in the last couple months.
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Indian Feudatory States pg.1-2(1).jpg

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Banging the drum for the Uglies — Indian States stamps

Post by RogerE »

Hmmm. The following question might actually be rhetorical, but let me respond with the information requested.
mmaddury wrote:
15 Oct 2020 04:34
Actually, SG does a good job of tracking the Indian Feudatory States. What is your basis for the claim below?
RogerE wrote:
15 Oct 2020 02:15
A comment from the sidelines: Since the catalogues by SG and Scott do such a poor job of treating the Indian Feudatory States stamps accurately and informatively...
At the outset, let's establish that I am only an interested observer, not an active collector of Indian Feudatory States. Hence my "comment from the sidelines".

My remark that SG and Scott don't treat Indian Feudatory States stamps accurately and informatively..was based on having seen various posts to that effect, in this thread, by Joy Daschaudhury, an undoubted expert in the field. Here are a couple of instances (no need to add others):

(1) Note the comment in the last line of this quote.
Joy Daschaudhuri wrote:
20 Sep 2020 22:55
banknoteguy wrote:
20 Sep 2020 22:26
Below is an Alwar SG.5. My question is whether this is an original or a reprint/copy/imitation?
So this looks original to me except that that perfs don't quite look rouletted but then I have not seen too many rouletted stamps.


Image
It is perfectly genuine Alwar 1901 ¼A yellowish green narrow setting lithograph SG 5 with perf.12 (not rouletted), printed from stone F and canceled with Benns type C4 cds of Alwar State Post Office of Ramgarh (1873–Jun 30,1902) in Ramgarh (27.5877°N 76.8173°E), now located in Alwar district of Rajasthan state.

Gibbons is as usual useless when it comes to different stones, sub-stones of Alwar stamps and shades. 😠
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8480&p=6810731&hilit=Benns+type+C4#p6810731
(2) A brief excerpt:
Joy Daschaudhuri wrote: Gibbons' listing of JK 1883 ¼A new rectangulars is practically useless.
There are huge varieties of shades of brown which Gibbons does not care to catalog. 😠
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8480&p=6807694&hilit=JK+1883#p6807694
A matter of perspective

Noting mmaddury's spirited defence of SG, I can only say: it's evidently a matter of level of involvement and perspective. At a certain range of acquaintance with the philately of Indian Feudatory States stamps, it seems the SG catalogue treatment is found to be helpful and comprehensive. On the other hand, at a very advanced level, it is found that further information only resides in various specialised sources (not necessarily easily accessible), and the extent to which the specialist must go beyond SG for the desired information continues to grow with specialisation.

So, perhaps both viewpoints need to be understood as lying on a continuum of experience/expertise, from novice at one end to specialist authority at the other. Apparently the usefulness of the SG treatment diminishes as you proceed along that continuum. Not surprising really — the same principle applies in many philatelic areas. A catalogue is a guidebook, aimed at meeting the needs of the collector with early to moderate experience of an area, but increasingly requiring supplementation from specialised sources as experience and collecting depth increase.

/RogerE :D

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mmaddury »

banknoteguy wrote:
15 Oct 2020 09:54
Mmaddury said
My suggestion - start with SG listing order (either pre-printed sheets or your own) and then modify them based on how you guide your collection. This is not static and is expected to evolve over time.
Good advice. I have started down this path. I am still hoping I can convince a few people to scan a page or two and post it! So, I will post my first two pages and a question. Is it considered appropriate to include images and text not directly related to stamps on a page?

...
These look quite good! And are far better than what I have.

Regarding your question, it depends on whether you expect to exhibit these sheets directly. I know exhibitions have very specific formats and rules but not sure if they are standardized rules or each exhibition can have its own. Others who have exhibited regularly can add more color.

The pictures are a nice touch. I would however recommend using period photographs for locations and not modern ones. For Alwar, a picture of the traditional कतार (katar or dagger) would be nice since it is the main motif of all issues. Though I'm not sure if want an elephant trunk picture for Bamra!

The David Feldman catalogs of the India States in the last few years are very well done. You could look at them for other ideas.

Lastly, does Indian Stamp Circle refer to ISC? If so, it should be India Study Circle.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by banknoteguy »

mmaddury,

Thanks. Just getting started.

I do like period photos and I have found some but it is tough for some states to find any photographs but I will continue to search and refine what I have. I am thinking about printing the photos on glossy photo paper and mounting them on the pages also -- so I can change them out more easily than reprinting and otherwise redoing a whole page. I have developed a way to be able to scrape the mounts off a page and reuse them at least several times before having to replace them. Works most of the time.

I really am new to this -- I have only been collecting stamps for just over a year and I just started studying I.F.S. two months ago]. So, thanks for the pointer to the Feldman catalogues. Not something I knew about. I have been looking at SG auction catalogues and ISC auctions. Oh and thanks for catching that India Stamp Circle, yes I meant India Study Circle. :roll:

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by RogerE »

Another comment from the sidelines, for banknoteguy.

Mounting covers, postcards, etc on backing card, which then goes on your write-up page, is a good plan, because it allows the mounted item to be easily removed (with backing) and repositioned on a new page. That extends the principle you already use for repositioning mounts. (I moisten a fraction of the gummed side of a mount to allow easier subsequent removal and repositioning. Self-adhesive mounts do exist, but don't admit subsequent removal.)

/RogerE :D

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by abctoo »

Just found one of my old stock books (put away before 1990) with about 50 IFS stamps, nothing special but I have a few questions and will use the opportunity to try the new picture posting system of stampboards. I also found another book with about 60 British India perfins (I collected worldwide perfins back then) and was wondering if Joy's March 2016 offer in the thread "Re: Perfins on British India stamps" to provide a .pdf file of Indian perfin catalog was still on the table? I sure would like a copy.

On June 21, 2018, amfmf1 posted a group of Kishingarh stamps in the thread "Re: From My British Commonwealth 1840-1936 Stamp Collection" which included the following four stamps identified as S.G. 72-75.
Maharaja Jagjanerajan Singh, perf. 16, redrawn
Maharaja Jagjanerajan Singh, perf. 16, redrawn

India - Kishingarh 2 Annas Maharaja Jagjanarajan Singh Redrawn Stamp, perf 16, Unlisted in Scott, high res. 3a.jpg


My 1953 S.G. uses the same numbers for the initial four stamps, with S.G. 75a as 2 a. magenta ('36), calling all "1928-36. Thick surfaced paper, Pin-perf." 1953 ed. S.G. 86 is "2 a. bright-magenta" under the heading "1945-47. As last, but thick, soft, unsurfaced paper. Pin-perf.) Which one, if either, is it? It appears to be canceled with "...Ngarh" showing in outer circle and what appears to be a "9" at the end of the date line.

As to perfins, here are two Cochin-Anchals perfined with a "D".
Raja Sir Rama Varma I, 3 pies, perf. 14
Raja Sir Rama Varma I, 3 pies, perf. 14

Mararaja Sir Rama Varma II, 10 pies, perf. 14
Mararaja Sir Rama Varma II, 10 pies, perf. 14
Thanks for letting me ramble.
Mike

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by abctoo »

Sorry, the picture in the last post did not quite work out, so here it is corrected.
Kishangarh 2 Annas Maharaja Yagyanarain Singhji 2 annas redrawn
Kishangarh 2 Annas Maharaja Yagyanarain Singhji 2 annas redrawn
Note the spelling of the name in original post is Maharaja Jagjanarajan Singh and here is Maharaja Yagyanarain Singhji -- the difference in spelling between Stanley Gibbons and Scott. Thanks, Mike

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by abctoo »

Here is another one I hope is not a waste of your time.

Cochin-Anchal Varma IV 9 pies, perf 13 x 13½. My old S.G. and 2009 Scott say it comes in two perforation varieties, perf. 11 and perf 13. I have the perf. 11, but here it is not a straight perf 13. Rather, the top and the bottom are perf. 13 and each of the sides are perf 13½.
Cochin-Anchal Varma IV 9 pies, perf 13 x 13½
Cochin-Anchal Varma IV 9 pies, perf 13 x 13½
From this one, I think I learned how to make a scan using a perf. gadge. Any suggestions for other techniques?
Thanks,
Mike

P.S. I just found the "edit" symbol and corrected a typographical error. Had I known about it earlier, I would have corrected the Kishangarh picture in the original post. Thanks again for your understanding.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by psphani »

abctoo wrote:
15 Oct 2020 15:06
Sorry, the picture in the last post did not quite work out, so here it is corrected.
Image
Note the spelling of the name in original post is Maharaja Jagjanarajan Singh and here is Maharaja Yagyanarain Singhji -- the difference in spelling between Stanley Gibbons and Scott. Thanks, Mike
Hi,
This is a forgery of Kishangarh 2 Annas Magenta from the 1928 series.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by abctoo »

psphani wrote:
16 Oct 2020 00:34
abctoo wrote:
15 Oct 2020 15:06
Sorry, the picture in the last post did not quite work out, so here it is corrected.
Image
Note the spelling of the name in original post is Maharaja Jagjanarajan Singh and here is Maharaja Yagyanarain Singhji -- the difference in spelling between Stanley Gibbons and Scott. Thanks, Mike
Hi,
This is a forgery of Kishangarh 2 Annas Magenta from the 1928 series.
After seeing your response, I wanted to see if others similarly printed were out there. I found on ebay seller nainad offering the following as "INDIA KISHANGARH 1936, 2 AN. MAGENTA SG75ab MNH ERRO IMPERF PAIR RARE" at US $599. The stamp on the right appears to have the same partial "halftone" dot pattern and the additional marking between the + and ANNAS at the top left as the one I posted.
India - Kishangarh 1936, 2An. Magenta SG75aab MNH Error Imperf Pair Rare, eBay $600 1a.jpg
Thanks, Mike

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

abctoo wrote:
15 Oct 2020 16:57
Here is another one I hope is not a waste of your time.

Cochin-Anchal Varma IV 9 pies, perf 13 x 13½. My old S.G. and 2009 Scott say it comes in two perforation varieties, perf. 11 and perf 13. I have the perf. 11, but here it is not a straight perf 13. Rather, the top and the bottom are perf. 13 and each of the sides are perf 13½.
Image
From this one, I think I learned how to make a scan using a perf. gadge. Any suggestions for other techniques?
Thanks,
Mike

P.S. I just found the "edit" symbol and corrected a typographical error. Had I known about it earlier, I would have corrected the Kishangarh picture in the original post. Thanks again for your understanding.
If your perf measurement is correct, this is SG98ab. SG 98a is perf 13. The perf 11 version is SG 98, which features a slightly different portrait of the Maharaja.

I have never seen the Scott listing for the Indian States, but the general view appears to be that it is not to be relied upon.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

abctoo wrote:
16 Oct 2020 02:38
psphani wrote:
16 Oct 2020 00:34
abctoo wrote:
15 Oct 2020 15:06
Sorry, the picture in the last post did not quite work out, so here it is corrected.
Image
Note the spelling of the name in original post is Maharaja Jagjanarajan Singh and here is Maharaja Yagyanarain Singhji -- the difference in spelling between Stanley Gibbons and Scott. Thanks, Mike
Hi,
This is a forgery of Kishangarh 2 Annas Magenta from the 1928 series.
After seeing your response, I wanted to see if others similarly printed were out there. I found on ebay seller nainad offering the following as "INDIA KISHANGARH 1936, 2 AN. MAGENTA SG75ab MNH ERRO IMPERF PAIR RARE" at US $599. The stamp on the right appears to have the same partial "halftone" dot pattern and the additional marking between the + and ANNAS at the top left as the one I posted.
Image
Thanks, Mike
I can't tell from nainad's scan whether that item is genuine, but the forged stamps copy the characteristics of the genuine. I believe they were produced photographically.

The halftone printing is evident in the genuine stamps, but yours just does not have the correct appearance of a genuine stamp. The colour is too bright, the design too stark in its contrast and the cancellation is typical of those seen on forged stamps.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies — Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

RogerE wrote:
15 Oct 2020 11:39



My remark that SG and Scott don't treat Indian Feudatory States stamps accurately and informatively..was based on having seen various posts to that effect, in this thread, by Joy Daschaudhuri, an undoubted expert in the field.
As Mahesh stated, the SG listing is the best general catalogue available for British Empire and Commonwealth, including India and States. It is not and never will be a specialised catalogue, but includes as much detail as possible.

The information provided by Joy is from more specialised handbooks such as Ray Benns' ISC handbook on Alwar.

There are handbooks on a number of the states, but for some there are none, and information has to be gleaned from other sources and pieced together. I know Joy has an extensive library, and that is where he gets his detailed knowledge. As Glen has said many times, "Knowledge is Power".

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by abctoo »

abctoo wrote:
15 Oct 2020 14:51
I also found another book with about 60 British India perfins (I collected worldwide perfins back then) and was wondering if Joy's March 2016 offer in the thread "Re: Perfins on British India stamps" to provide a .pdf file of Indian perfin catalog was still on the table? I sure would like a copy.
I found a copy of "The Perfin Stamps of India," Magnus Werner's 1990 work Updated 2019 by Jeff Turnbull. Will report back of anything interesting. Thanks, Mike

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by abctoo »

peterh wrote:
16 Oct 2020 03:06
abctoo wrote:
15 Oct 2020 16:57
Here is another one I hope is not a waste of your time. . . I have never seen the Scott listing for the Indian States, but the general view appears to be that it is not to be relied upon.
I have the 2009 Scott catalogue which includes 20 pages of Indian Feudatory States. I can provide a .pdf of those pages as fair comment. Because of the size, it's in two parts. Thanks, Mike

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by abctoo »

Jaipur Postal Cards:

Rediscovered the following Jaipur postal cards. I searched the over 15,000 posts in this thread for more information and while I did find a couple of 1940's pictured, the only substantive information I could find was in Eric Casagrande's posts around Dec 17, 2009, in which one he discusses a Jaipur section of Deschl's book on postal stationery. Elsewhere I found that book is highly sought after and impossible to obtain. Casagrande talks about a ¼ anna postcard wrapper with a 1923 cancellation virtually identical to the cancellation on the 1924 postcard below, referencing #C17 & C19 (presumably from the Deschl book). And then there's the similar 1938 Jaipur postal card. Perhaps, someone can suggest how to do better searches of this thread?
1 Jaipur 1924 ¼ anna postcard 1a.jpg


1 Jaipur 1924 ¼ anna postcard 1b.jpg

1 Jaipur 1938 ¼ anna postcard 1a.jpg

1 Jaipur 1938 ¼ anna postcard 1b.jpg


Thanks,
Mike

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by abctoo »

Travancore-Cochin-Anchal & Indian Posts Postal Stationery

Here are three Travancore-Cochin 4 Pies cards I would like a little more information about. The old Higgins & Gage Postal Stationery catalogue lists the first one as H&G #14 but gives no further information about it. Note this copy of it has a faint double impression of the entire printing. The other two, are Indian Posts obliteration of the Travancore-Cochin markings on similar postal cards with overprinting to make them Indian Posts & Telegraphs cards.
Faint double impression
Faint double impression

Full overprint
Full overprint

Partial overprint
Partial overprint


Thanks,
Mike

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