Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

Yes, the Liari cancellation is on the right here:
Stamps 027.jpg

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by peterh »

I remembered that Tony also posted this one of Uthal back in 2013
tonymacg wrote:
17 Jan 2013 16:32
The Las Bela Post Office existed, in practical terms anyway, to convey mail between (Las) Bela and Karachi.

There were other post offices in the State, so in theory at least, mails could have been carried between places other than Bela and Karachi. But the evidence is pretty scant. This is the only other CDS I have:

Image

From Uthal, which was on the Bela to Karachi line

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by Global Administrator »

.
mmaddury wrote:
03 Jan 2021 04:40

Coming back to stamps...

A great idea … that is what this thread is actually about. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

A number of off-topic posts once here were removed today, which wasted an hour of my time, that I do not have right now. :twisted:

This is one of the most iconic and most visited threads on stampboards. Near 17,000 posts, and over 600,000 page views.

Very many 100s of different members have posted here over 13 years, and due to our insistence on IMAGES, IMAGES, IMAGES, and my substantial funding for them to be stored here forever, it is the Google number #1 match for masses of things India States stamps related. :idea:

Thanks to all those who have added, and keep adding, to this quite amazing data base. Some members sadly pass away - a harsh reality given our age demographic, or move on to other interests etc, but their superb contributions still live on here forever. :D

As to nomenclature, we always ask for the commonly used name to be used. If a stamp is inscribed BAMRA, by all means, if you wish, for reasons of your own, also refer to it in brackets as Bāmaṇḍā. Most Google users are searching for matches to BAMRA, as that is how search engines and catalogues work, and that is what is on the stamp. A sole reference to Bāmaṇḍā is not acceptable here. Stanley Gibbons catalogues do not make any reference to Bāmaṇḍā - as a very relevant pointer. BAMRA (Bāmaṇḍā) is and has always been perfectly OK.

It is entirely a member choice - no-one here, despite some absurd and ignorant and totally innaccurate posts here in recent days, have ever been asked otherwise. :!:

If you are typing about New York, by all means be pedantic if you wish, and also refer to it as New Amsterdam, and/or use the native American Indian name "Mennahatenk" if you really want to get technical etc. But "New York" works for 99.99999999999999999999999999% of members. :mrgreen:

I've run this board for 15 years, and we know exactly what works. Some clever newer members think they know how boards work far better than us, and they mostly are mistaken. :)

Finally, the board is run by Admin, and a large and experienced Volunteer Moderator team. Direct ALL suggestions to us, and not get into your own micro discussions, when you know ZERO of the background. That is derailing threads, is disruptive, and breaches our clear rules, and you certainly may regret doing so.

So let's please all again, get back to -


"Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps"


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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mukulgarga »

.
... coming back to stamps..........yes, I would like to convey my thanks to everybody here on the board for enriching me with their abundant knowledge.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

.

If it's any consolation, there doesn't seem to be much activity on Indian States topics in other forums, the ISC Whatsapp group or the ISC Facebook group.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by boban76 »

The auction realisations of Ken Carter india and states by Grosvenor is up on their website

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

Thank you for that information George.

I didn't know that sale was on :oops:

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by ejansen2k »

As already mentioned, I believe you could collect your posts and the phots in a publisher document and you would have a great start on a refere3nce manual many would pay for. Just Saying... :)

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by RoCe »

boban76 wrote:
03 Feb 2021 13:52
The auction realisations of Ken Carter india and states by Grosvenor is up on their website
Yes, realisations look rather strong to me. Certainly stronger than in recent SG and DF auctions. I was bidding for several items, but won just one lot. :evil:

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mukulgarga »

Grosvenor J&K Lot 734 is a missing die forgery.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by RoCe »

mukulgarga wrote:
04 Feb 2021 20:02
Grosvenor J&K Lot 734 is a missing die forgery.
This lot 734, together with some 10-15 other lots, was withdrawn well before bidding.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mukulgarga »

RoCe wrote:
04 Feb 2021 22:12
mukulgarga wrote:
04 Feb 2021 20:02
Grosvenor J&K Lot 734 is a missing die forgery.
This lot 734, together with some 10-15 other lots, was withdrawn well before bidding.
Its surprising that a reputed auctioneer like Grosvenor doesn't have a validation department to scrutinize the lots before putting up for auction.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mmaddury »

I was surprised at the realizations. I too bid on several but got only 3. I was able to fill a couple of collections gaps, though one of them was at full CV. Quite surprising.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by axr15 »

The Grosvenor realizations were also generally high for the India items (not States). I bid on several and was able to win only two items.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by ikanek »

I also won only one item from Travancore official stamps. Both the collections were going mad high, the used above full CV.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

ejansen2k wrote:
04 Feb 2021 07:56

As already mentioned, I believe you could collect your posts and the photos in a publisher document and you would have a great start on a reference manual many would pay for. Just Saying... :)

There is your COVID project - you have full Admin OK to do just that, at zero fee. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Was reading my new Gibbons 2021 catalogue and the following notes might be of interest to many here -

There are further price rises in India, notably the unused lithographs, and Indian States (especially Bhopal, Dungarpur and Duttia). In the used abroad section every price has been increased in India used in Iran.

In Indian States a number of new albino overprints are added to the Convention States, new varieties to the Feudatory States and the Jammu and Kashmir telegraphs have been rewritten and expanded.


Now available in hard cover and digital versions.

Glen



Stanley Gibbons 2021 Commonwealth & British Empire Stamp Catalogue 1840-1970
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by rakeshk »

axr15 wrote:
05 Feb 2021 02:40
The Grosvenor realizations were also generally high for the India items (not States). I bid on several and was able to win only two items.
I was able to plug two holes from my Cochin want list, with one of them at 40% above full catalog value! I was expecting strong bidding so I wasn't surprised.I believe almost everything in Cochin was sold.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

rakeshk wrote:
12 Feb 2021 15:56

I was able to plug two holes from my Cochin want list, with one of them at 40% above full catalog value! I was expecting strong bidding so I wasn't surprised.

I believe almost everything in Cochin was sold.
Yes those who decide they will never more than quarter cat etc are out of luck these days with this area. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by banknoteguy »

I know many I.F. states used stone lithography.

Does anyone know the last Indian state to print stamps from stones?

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Hyderabad stationary

Post by mukaram »

20210215_213738.jpg

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Jaipur Surcharge and mutli cancellations

Post by mukaram »

20210208_203528.jpg

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Re: Jaipur Surcharge and mutli cancellations

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

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Good advice above. :lol:
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by RoCe »

I found an interesting article posted by Forbes (author Richard Lehmann) in 2019 indicating that the Jammu&Kashmir 4b stamp was sold for unbelievable 45.000 USD:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardlehmann/2019/02/13/the-i ... 7b18043a17

The “4b” probably relates to Scott catalogue – is it SG 7 (4a indigo)? Does someone have image of that stamp (if it was actioned in a public auction)? I wasn’t aware of the fact that a J&K item can reach such extraordinary price. Moreover, 2 nice mint copies of that stamp with a good provenance were auctioned in the George Harell sale and were sold for just 1/10 of the amount mentioned by Mr. Lehmann.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by banknoteguy »

RoCe said,
in 2019 ... the Jammu&Kashmir 4b stamp was sold for unbelievable 45.000 USD
I suspect this is an error -- they mis-read a PRL and the decimal point should have been one place to the left or 4,500 USD. I have found no confirmed auction sale anywhere near that price. But maybe someone else knows something about this specific transaction.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mukaram »

20210226_005243.jpg
20210226_005258.jpg
20210226_005314.jpg
20210226_005327.jpg
20210226_005346.jpg
20210226_005403.jpg
20210226_005422.jpg
20210226_005436.jpg
20210226_005452.jpg
Some of the variants of the uglies of Bamra,Dutia,Sirmoor,Jaipur and Bundi from my collection.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

Sorry to give you bad news, Mukaram, but these are all forgeries.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by shivnair »

Peter, I had posted this elsewhere, where it appears to have fallen into a void. Please let me have your opinion on these? probably similar to Mukarambhai's acquisitions LOL
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I recently bought these Idar stamps, the seller referring to them as essay proofs!!

They are the half anna issue that tony refers to in his seminal posting on the Idar issues. The top two columns are printed on card, the bottom ones are on paper.

Any opinions on their genuineness or otherwise would be gratefully received.

I have also taken closeups so that you can see the print characteristics

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by shivnair »

Here are the multi colour ones

[/AddSpace]
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mukaram »

peterh wrote:
26 Feb 2021 07:01
Sorry to give you bad news, Mukaram, but these are all forgeries.
I know and I am working on the forgeries variations state wise.

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jammu T2 (1a) red valuation

Post by Indian collector »

.
Hi there, another couple of questions here. It was not surprising that my Tibetan and inverted-head Sardinian stamps were fakes (as per posts from earlier today).

However this naturally gets me to wonder about the limitations of my collection with respect to this. While expanding my collection I picked up the following at a store (still open) in Victoria



(BC).

IMG_0935.JPG
.



Nothing seemed untoward at the time: the dealer was (and I think is) well established and the price was in line with catalogue pricing at the time, about C$30 I think. However I have been looking on ebay and found many counterfeits.

The one thing that stands out about the stamp in question, which one can see by looking at its overlap with a neighbour, is the thinness of the paper. I know that some "native" papers are quite thick; I think this best matches the SG9 description (Jammu only).

Thoughts on this are appreciated.
.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

.

All you have shown us here today are crude forgeries

Maybe ask here FIRST before buying these heavily forged regions for decent money?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Indian collector »

.

That last one is really disappointing.

The others weren't surprising but how this comes off is that without consulting experts in this field (or becoming one myself) any purchase becomes suspect. Not so much fun and I have lots else on my plate than collecting.

I'm not out to spend much, and owning expensive stamps is not too important to me, but since they're pieces of history I'd rather not own the insult of being ripped off.

At the risk of sticking out my neck one last time, here is a purchase from ebay yesterday (my first stamp purchase in 25 years) of some stamps from Alwar.

Of course this opens up a discussion on ebay as a source; my feeling is that with its transparent ratings policy and (in this case at least) persnickety customers it may prove more reliable than the stamp stores have done to me.


Screen Shot 2021-02-27 at 4.23.31 PM.png


I love the stamps from this area (the history, the artwork, the diversity) and hope for an avenue that I can keep this hobby going.
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Re: jammu T2 (1a) red valuation

Post by peterh »

Indian collector wrote:
28 Feb 2021 15:29
.
Hi there, another couple of questions here. It was not surprising that my Tibetan and inverted-head Sardinian stamps were fakes (as per posts from earlier today).

However this naturally gets me to wonder about the limitations of my collection with respect to this. While expanding my collection I picked up the following at a store (still open) in Victoria



(BC).

Image.



Nothing seemed untoward at the time: the dealer was (and I think is) well established and the price was in line with catalogue pricing at the time, about C$30 I think. However I have been looking on ebay and found many counterfeits.

The one thing that stands out about the stamp in question, which one can see by looking at its overlap with a neighbour, is the thinness of the paper. I know that some "native" papers are quite thick; I think this best matches the SG9 description (Jammu only).

Thoughts on this are appreciated.
.
The good(ish) news on this one is that it is not a forgery. It is an impression from the genuine die.

If it is watercolour (check the solubility of the ink by touching with a damp cotton bud), then it is probably SG 9.

However, I think it is more likely that you will find the pigment is not watercolour, in which case I would say this is a reprint of SG 28. The originals in watercolour are usually much more heavily printed and smudged than this, and usually on thicker and rougher paper.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

Indian collector wrote:
28 Feb 2021 18:49
That last one is really disappointing. The others weren't surprising but how this comes off is that without consulting experts in this field (or becoming one myself) any purchase becomes suspect. Not so much fun and I have lots else on my plate than collecting. I'm not out to spend much, and owning expensive stamps is not too important to me, but since they're pieces of history I'd rather not own the insult of being ripped off. At the risk of sticking out my neck one last time, here is a purchase from ebay yesterday (my first stamp purchase in 25 years) of some stamps from Alwar. Of course this opens up a discussion on ebay as a source; my feeling is that with its transparent ratings policy and (in this case at least) persnickety customers it may prove more reliable than the stamp stores have done to me.
Image
I love the stamps from this area (the history, the artwork, the diversity) and hope for an avenue that I can keep this hobby going.
These are definitely genuine. Alwar SG 3 and SG 5.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Indian collector »

Thank you peterh for those last two replies. Very helpful! I checked the jammu to see if it was watercolour. Answer: no. I'm not sure what most collectors would do with an item like this. My inclination is to keep it and label it in the collection as a reprint.

If writers here don't mind I'll post images of ebay possible acquisitions before buying.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

Yes, it's worth keeping for reference as a reprint.

I made an error in the previous post, sorry. I meant to say the originals in oil colour are usually heavily printed and smudged, whereas the reprints are usually much more clearly printed.

Please do post images of any possible purchases if you would like some advice.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by indianchariots »

mukulgarga wrote:
04 Feb 2021 23:13
RoCe wrote:
04 Feb 2021 22:12
mukulgarga wrote:
04 Feb 2021 20:02
Grosvenor J&K Lot 734 is a missing die forgery.
This lot 734, together with some 10-15 other lots, was withdrawn well before bidding.
Its surprising that a reputed auctioneer like Grosvenor doesn't have a validation department to scrutinize the lots before putting up for auction.
Image

Outright fake cancellations on some high value stamps from Jaipur State. Lot 722 & 723 Ken Carter. While lot 722 sold for £90, 723 can't be seen on the price realized sheet.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by indianchariots »

Genuine commercial usage of the 3 stamps in discussion:

SG67 Jaipur PM Type 147.jpg
SG67 Jaipur Travelling Post Office postmark Type 147 (found used Apr-48 to Apr-50)


SG68 Jaipur PM Type 101 Ex SG.jpg
SG68 Jaipur postmark Type 101 (found Used Jan-37 to Jul-38) Ex SG


SG69 Jaipur PM Type 34 Lachhmangarh - Ex JM Dunlop.jpg
SG69 Jaipur postmark Type 34 Lachhmangarh 17 rays (found used July-36 to Aug-50) - Ex JM Dunlop, SG
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

shivnair wrote:
26 Feb 2021 20:46
Here are the multi colour ones

[/AddSpace]
Image
These all appear to be the modern 'reprints' from the original plates that Tony referred to previously.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by shivnair »

Thank You Peter, with hindsight, i had that feeling when i finally got them. Thanks for taking the time
#shivshankarnair

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by banknoteguy »

Below is a recent purchase. I believe this is a block/strip of two of Soruth SG34. It is perf.12 on what looks to me like toned wove paper. My only real question is about the cancel which appears to be CTO as this block is MH original gum. Can someone confirm that?

My SG34.jpg
My SG34 back.jpg

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digeriukas
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by digeriukas »

Hi, what do you think about these Poonch stamps ? Are they genuine ? Sorry for the quality of the images, but since they are from internet, I can't provide any better. Attribution to SG might also be incorrect.

SG 7
SG 7
SG 9
SG 9
SG 12
SG 12
SG 28
SG 28
SG 45
SG 45
SG 50
SG 50
SG 50
SG 50
SG 58
SG 58

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banknoteguy
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by banknoteguy »

|
The images are not very good but they all look genuine to me e.g., you can see the ruling line on SG12.

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peterh
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

banknoteguy wrote:
05 Mar 2021 13:33
Below is a recent purchase. I believe this is a block/strip of two of Soruth SG34. It is perf.12 on what looks to me like toned wove paper. My only real question is about the cancel which appears to be CTO as this block is MH original gum. Can someone confirm that?


Image
Image
Yes, probably are CTO.

Not sure what you mean by ‘original gum’ because these were issued without gum.

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peterh
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

digeriukas wrote:
05 Mar 2021 22:46
Hi, what do you think about these Poonch stamps ? Are they genuine ? Sorry for the quality of the images, but since they are from internet, I can't provide any better. Attribution to SG might also be incorrect.


ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
Taking them in order, my opinions are as follows, based on the types, although I can’t comment on the paper from images:

“SG 7” forgery
“SG 9” forgery
SG 12 genuine
“SG 28” forgery
“SG 45” forgery
SG 50 mint genuine
“SG 50” used forgery
SG 58 genuine

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by digeriukas »

Thank you for the information. I am a beginner on this field, so I really appreciate your help ;)

What about these Bhor stamps ? For my newbie eye they look OK :roll:

SG 2
SG 2
SG 2
SG 2
SG 1
SG 1
SG 1
SG 1
SG 1
SG 1

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by banknoteguy »

peterh posted,
Not sure what you mean by ‘original gum’ because these were issued without gum.
Hmmmm. Well I am fairly new at this. And I see that SG says, "Nos. 1/47 of Soruth were issued without gum."

But when I looked at the reverse, it looks kinda like gum. I did not try to lick it [yet] :lol: though I thought about it briefly! Maybe what I am seeing is just a heavy coating to the paper???

I tried to get an image of what I see (which is hard to do):

GumOrWhat.jpg

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by indianchariots »

digeriukas wrote:
06 Mar 2021 01:02
Thank you for the information. I am a beginner on this field, so I really appreciate your help ;)

What about these Bhor stamps ? For my newbie eye they look OK :roll:

Bhor stamps are all fine. Genuine. No issues here. The ones cancelled bear a common cancellation.
“Be like a postage stamp. Stick to one thing until you get there.”

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