Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

tonymacg wrote:Not sure about yours, but mine

is definitely a Dawson Type F (for forgery :D ) on a perf 12½ reprint
Lets wait for any Hyderabad specialist on the board. First task is to verify the my bare stamp itself and then the overprint :?
In the end BPA is always there :)
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by pookie9121 »

The Uglies is one of my favorite boards to read on Stampboards. (I don't have but a few of them, but I enjoy the constant updating and new material that makes its way to this board). Cheers my fellow stamp people.

(Sorry I've been drinking) :lol:

Cheers,

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by amfhf1 »

Looking at ebay tonight came across this.

Thinking it looks a little too nice.


Image

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

amfhf1 wrote:Looking at ebay tonight came across this.

Thinking it looks a little too nice.


Image
You are absolutely right. Gives the look of a First Day Cover :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

pookie9121 wrote:The Uglies is one of my favorite boards to read on Stampboards. (I don't have but a few of them, but I enjoy the constant updating and new material that makes its way to this board). Cheers my fellow stamp people.

(Sorry I've been drinking) :lol:

Cheers,

Erik
Then I hope you'll keep up both, Erik :D I always find my Barwani look so much better after a decent dash of overproof rum in my coffee ...
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

mukulgarga wrote:
amfhf1 wrote:Looking at ebay tonight came across this.

Thinking it looks a little too nice.


Image
You are absolutely right. Gives the look of a First Day Cover :D
And used way after time: those stamps were released in 1911, and the 'real thing' tends to look rather more scrappy

Image

Image

but I've never seen a cover with all values and shades used commercially.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

Recently bought from ebay at equivalent to $3.5 with free shipping. Hope it's a steal.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by peterh »

mukulgarga wrote::D :D :D :D

Image
Looks to be perf 11½, so possibly the basic stamp is not a reprint, however the overprint is likely to be an imitation printed vertically.

I am sure domburd will comment when he sees it.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by opkedia52 »

mukulgarga wrote:Recently bought from ebay at equivalent to $3.5 with free shipping. Hope it's a steal.

Image
Image
At net 3.5 US$,it is really a bargain.The scan is very fade to determine the condition of the stamps.Otherwise this is a very good cover.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

What are these new type of oval cancellations on the back?
Do these cancellations add to the rarity of the cover?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

I believe those are personal seals, rather than anything to do with the Post Office - but I'll be happy to be corrected by the experts :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Something to chew over:

Image

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4 ... 0834806370

This item has now, quite properly, been withdrawn by the seller. It was described as the rare Kashmir 1 Anna blue, SG 93 (cat. value £2250). Our perspicacious readers will have immediately seen that it was in fact the common ½ Anna, worth a couple of pounds on a good day. As soon as the seller, annakodesch, was warned, she promptly withdrew the lot. Full marks to her for doing so.

The question and full answer accompanying the item make for thought-provoking reading, though.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

Which SG No. ?
Design is that of SG49 but that is listed only imperf.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

This is one of the 'reprints and imitations', for the time being, anyway.

I think I have good evidence

Image

that the imperf versions of these at least were postally used.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

Tony could you please identify these. I usually get confused in the many similar shades of Poonch stamps. And is the second last stamp in aniline rose? Papers all seem to be batonne.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

I'm always wary of identifying Poonch, particularly from scans only. You say these are on bâtonné papers - but are they wove or laid? It can make all the difference!

The Poonch Stamps Web site suggests that one test for the aniline inks is to expose them to UV light. The aniline inks glow, but the ordinary watercolours don't. You could try that. The other test for aniline inks is that the colour should suffuse onto the back of the stamp, again in a way that the ordinary watercolours don't. If a stamp passes both those tests, it should indisputably be an aniline ink printing.

A final point to bear in mind is that apparently there were some posthumous printings of Poonch, in inks/on papers that were never issued for postal use. If a stamp doesn't conform to the Gibbons listing, it may be posthumous.

In any case, the Poonch Stamps site is an infinitely greater authority on these stamps than I am :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by psphani »

tonymacg wrote:Something to chew over:

Image

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4 ... 0834806370

This item has now, quite properly, been withdrawn by the seller. It was described as the rare Kashmir 1 Anna blue, SG 93 (cat. value £2250). Our perspicacious readers will have immediately seen that it was in fact the common ½ Anna, worth a couple of pounds on a good day. As soon as the seller, annakodesch, was warned, she promptly withdrew the lot. Full marks to her for doing so.

The question and full answer accompanying the item make for thought-provoking reading, though.
:). The answer really makes you think.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

I suppose I'm being affected by Southern Hemisphere mid-Winter gloom, but still, I can't see why this quite pleasant lot of Bhopal

Image

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid= ... 0459220878

should have sold for £58.77, or about a third over full 2012 Gibbons catalogue value. Twelve bids from eight bidders - I thought the starting price of £19.99 was just about right, but clearly I was very wrong.

If these sorts of realisations are the current norm, then I just can't wait to see the 2013 Gibbons :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

tonymacg wrote:I suppose I'm being affected by Southern Hemisphere mid-Winter gloom, but still, I can't see why this quite pleasant lot of Bhopal

Image

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid= ... 0459220878

should have sold for £58.77, or about a third over full 2012 Gibbons catalogue value. Twelve bids from eight bidders - I thought the starting price of £19.99 was just about right, but clearly I was very wrong.
Tony I think your calculation of full Gibbon for this lot is flawed somewhere. According to me the total Cat Value comes out to be 186 GBP. So at 32% of Gibbons the lot was not expensive. Or did you fail to scroll down the page? There are 45 stamps in total. The listing picture shows only 6 stamps. So many variety of errors in one place for Bhopal I have not seen before.By the way I have won this lot and I think that I had not been overly greedy at 58.75 GBP. :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

No, I didn't scroll down. That makes much more sense, and the price is just about right.

Given the usual small size of the sheets of Bhopal, though, my preference is always to collect the spelling errors in positional blocks or full sheets,

Image

like this of SG 31, with 31a and 31b, or on the occasional cover.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Another of those crazed strips of SG O1 from Poonch:

Image

Is it a case of one stamp upright, and two sideways left and two sideways right, or two upright, one sideways and two inverted, or ... ?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by birder »

tonymacg wrote:Another of those crazed strips of SG O1 from Poonch:

Image

Is it a case of one stamp upright, and two sideways left and two sideways right, or two upright, one sideways and two inverted, or ... ?
If we look at the value tab in the centre, then it would be

two stamps sideways left, one stamp upright and two stamps sideways right.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by makielb »

tonymacg wrote:Another of those crazed strips of SG O1 from Poonch:

Image

Is it a case of one stamp upright, and two sideways left and two sideways right, or two upright, one sideways and two inverted, or ... ?
I can see it on eBay - "Printing error - possibly unique." :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

birder wrote:
tonymacg wrote:Another of those crazed strips of SG O1 from Poonch:

Image

Is it a case of one stamp upright, and two sideways left and two sideways right, or two upright, one sideways and two inverted, or ... ?
If we look at the value tab in the centre, then it would be

two stamps sideways left, one stamp upright and two stamps sideways right.
However, we don't know if this originally a horizontal or a vertical strip ...
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

makielb wrote:
tonymacg wrote:Another of those crazed strips of SG O1 from Poonch:

Image

Is it a case of one stamp upright, and two sideways left and two sideways right, or two upright, one sideways and two inverted, or ... ?
I can see it on eBay - "Printing error - possibly unique." :lol: :lol: :lol:
Others may make valiant attempts, Mike, but none can rival the Poonch printers on a ... er ... good day :D

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

tonymacg wrote:This is one of the 'reprints and imitations', for the time being, anyway.

I think I have good evidence

Image

that the imperf versions of these at least were postally used.
Which of these are reprints and which are genuine? What's the criteria to separate reprints (as you said as of now) from the Genuine ones?

Image
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by makielb »

Tony- With those Poonch beauties - I assume that there was only one die and that it was struck multiple times. Or - were there multiple dies? If so, I "assume" :roll: that each sheet must have been from a single die in a single hand.

Absolutely beautiful ugly confusion. :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

mukulgarga wrote: Which of these are reprints and which are genuine? What's the criteria to separate reprints (as you said as of now) from the Genuine ones?

Image
It's a process of elimination.

First, sort out any with the circular embossing. They must be reprints/imitations, because the legitimate stamps were never regularly issued with that type of embossing.

Next, compare the types with the genuine types. Any that are similar but not matching, must be imitations. I suspect the ¼ Anna blacks in the second row will fall into this category.

Finally, look at the perforations. The perforations on that first ½(?) Anna green are impossible. Bhopal didn't use a 'normal' perforator like that during the original period.

Whatever are left after that screening process are probably OK. Of course, as I've been saying, just what should be classed as a pure 'reprint/imitation' and what as a postal issue isn't quite clear. Some stamps traditionally classified as imitations, don't seem to be.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

makielb wrote:Tony- With those Poonch beauties - I assume that there was only one die and that it was struck multiple times. Or - were there multiple dies? If so, I "assume" :roll: that each sheet must have been from a single die in a single hand.

Absolutely beautiful ugly confusion. :D
Mike, you're right: there was only a single die, which was struck multiple times. Hence the ruled pencil lines, to guide the (for want of a better word) printer.

It's rather suggestive that almost all the sideways and tête-bêche errors occur on the 1 Pice value, and that where they do occur on the higher values, they're scarce to rare. The 1 Pice design would be far and away the easiest to confuse. You can just imagine the printer bashing out a few rows, putting the die down for a moment because his arm was sore, and taking it up again, wrong way around.

I'd love to know how that 2 Anna block came to be, and how it passed Quality Control, though :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

tonymacg wrote: First, sort out any with the circular embossing. They must be reprints/imitations, because the legitimate stamps were never regularly issued with that type of embossing.
Tony could you please elaborate a little bit on this embossing point. SG doesn't mention anything about the differentiation.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Yes, certainly.

The large issues of the reign of Shah Jahan Begum, that is between SG 1 to SG 78, were embossed with her octagonal seal. The issues made during the reign of Sultan Jahan Begum, that is SG 79 to 98 and all the reprints and imitations received her circular embossed seal.

So, for example, this stamp

Image

must immediately be classed as an imitation. Although it's in the style of the issues of Shah Jahan Begum, with the blank centre for the embossing, it has her daughter's seal. Hence it can't have been issued during Shah Jahan Begum's reign.

The only crossover stamp was the 8 Anna of Shah Jahan Begum overprinted with the Persian 'S' for Sultan Jahan Begum

Image

and as it had the seal printed as part of the design, and was too small to accommodate it, it didn't receive the embossing.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

Thanks Tony. That helps a lot. In fact it just occurred to me that you ought to be writing a book on Indian Feudatory States. Besides earning you a lot of money it would be saving people a hell lot more of their money. :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

This thread is the book that we've all been writing together!
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

tonymacg wrote:This thread is the book that we've all been writing together!
I totally agree with you and applaud for your time and patience invested in it. :) :)
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

You can't have them all

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

I was just discussing this lot this morning with Mr A.N. Other, and I said I thought that one or two of the 1 Pice stamps might be OK, but the rest looked bad. I'd say the lot was worth a couple of £s at best, unless you wanted a comprehensive selection of Poonch fakes :D

On an entirely different matter, I've just been booking up the historical catalogue values of this Charkhari SG 15b

Image

Current catalogue value: £38; 1998 catalogue value: £38. Not all Indian States prices are going through the roof :lol:
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

This

https://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261077270862

Image

is another eBay lot to make you scratch your head.

I think one of the Nawanagar SG 1s might be genuine, but why on earth would two bidders take this up to even $US1.44? Do they feel sorry for seller iphilately2008? I don't.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

Received in the mail today

Image
Image

A pair of SG18's on Registered cover.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Actually, I think they're better than that. They look like SG 18bs to me. Compare them with the lower 1 Anna on this piece (the upper 1 Anna is a London print):

Image

I think it's an SG 18 - yours are the chocolate shade:

Image
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

I didn't want to flatter myself so I rechecked the colour With SG colour Key and observed that the colour matches more with Brown than with chocolate.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Well, there's the effect of scanning procedures and displays for you. If I flick back and forth between your cover in the first post, and the cover with the Gibbons Colour Key in the second post, the colours of the stamps look radically different on my screen. In the second scan, I'd have said the stamps were tending more to the 'pale yellow-brown', SG 18a, than either 'brown' or 'chocolate'.

In the end, you're the only one who can accurately pick the colour :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

tonymacg wrote:This

https://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261077270862

Image

is another eBay lot to make you scratch your head.

I think one of the Nawanagar SG 1s might be genuine, but why on earth would two bidders take this up to even $US1.44? Do they feel sorry for seller iphilately2008? I don't.
So in the end, this lot of old rubbish went for $20.09, on eight bids from five bidders.

It makes you wonder: does winning buyer y**m, with an 879 feedback score, really think he/she has made the bargain buy of the century? That, if the stamps were all genuine, the lot would sell for only $US20? Or is this lot going to end up in one of those $2 million dollar almost-complete world collections?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

Is this Genuine SG23?

Image
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
What a huge collection of Barwani and other Fakes !!!!

http://www.ebay.com/sch/India-/70088/i.html?item=36047961312 ... =150&rt=nc
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tonymacg
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

I've just been dealing with these on another thread: https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13744&p=2978447

I'm happy to say that the seller reacted very quickly (within hours) of my alerting him to the problem.

This lot does highlight a serious problem for collectors of Barwani. Some of these cancellations look like the real thing. They probably are - made from the original implements. That means that any undated single-ring Barwani cancellation is suspect until proven innocent.

Some of the others, the neat corner cancels, are clearly spurious. This claimed SG 35aB

Image

with what purports to be a Pansemal CDS (no other State PO name ends in '...MAL') is an obvious fake. Here is a genuine Pansemal CDS:

Image

But I'm afraid we have to be on heightened guard over any used Barwani.

Incidentally, it seems the forger has been doing his homework. My (genuine) cover with a pair of SG 35aB was used from Pansemal. I didn't show it as the example because the cancellation is very poorly struck.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

I've just posted this on the forgeries thread, but in case anyone misses it there ...

It appears the seller world_phil has decided to be cute about this listing, and says the stamps are 'not authenticated'.

Not authenticated is true as far as it goes. I can't imagine anyone who knows their Indian States authenticating these. They're simply forgeries. Seller world_phil is also trying to sell more fakes, from Jaipur and Rajasthan as well.

I can only suggest that, if you don't want to get stuck with Indian States fakes, it would be as well to examine any listings of these stamps from world_phil with the very greatest care.
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mukulgarga
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

One more disclosure-- world-phil mentions "Not authenticated" only on the forgeries and never on the genuine stamps :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by jadrake »

Yeah - I only buy the "safe" ones from him.... ie. Morvi, Orchha (tall crappy 1935 series) stamps. I passed on the Barwani, but was wondering if you saw them and were going to weigh in on them. :-) I did buy a 1930 Charkhari which I think is safe, but we'll see. All unused so I don't need to worry about this cancel silliness. And I thought removed Revenue cancels were bad.... faking ringed cancels......
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by birder »

This one should be genuine.

Image


I would like to know the year this was issued.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by birder »

Nepal. 25 Rupees.

Image

What was the highest denomination in this set?
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