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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 15 Aug 2012 13:52
by tonymacg
Jason, I'll need to check the Charkhari later, but I can tell you straightaway that the Morvi are the modern fakes.

The print quality of the legitimate stamps wasn't great, but it wasn't that, er, crappy :D

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 15 Aug 2012 17:27
by tonymacg
The Charkhari looks fine, and I'd say definitely the bluish slate shade. (Did I see laid lines in the paper by any chance?) Here's an SG 31a for comparison of the shade:

Image

This was actually a very productive exercise. You got me re-examining my 1 Pice blues, and I think I've identified three that could be shoe-horned into 'bluish-slate' :D

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 15 Aug 2012 18:12
by tonymacg
And now sorting through my winnings from the last India Study Circle auction. This SG 17 of Jammu & Kashmir (1876 ½ Anna bright blue in watercolour on native paper)

Image

is the pick of the bunch by far. I do love those Kashmir blues.

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 15 Aug 2012 18:44
by mukulgarga
tonymacg wrote:And now sorting through my winnings from the last India Study Circle auction. This SG 17 of Jammu & Kashmir (1876 ½ Anna bright blue in watercolour on native paper)

Image

is the pick of the bunch by far. I do love those Kashmir blues.
Trying to learn how to overcome jealousy which is a mans worst enemy. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 15 Aug 2012 18:45
by mukulgarga
By the way anyone ever seen these horizontal lines on SG 10

Image

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 15 Aug 2012 19:00
by tonymacg
Just checked through 75 copies of SG 10, and this was the closest I could find:

Image

Not nearly as pronounced, though. I'd guess the lines were due to poor scraping of the ink from the plate, but I'd be interested to hear alternative suggestions.

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 15 Aug 2012 19:22
by opkedia52
tonymacg wrote:Just checked through 75 copies of SG 10, and this was the closest I could find:

Image

Not nearly as pronounced, though. I'd guess the lines were due to poor scraping of the ink from the plate, but I'd be interested to hear alternative suggestions.
I second Mr. tony's view because it is not present in stamps of following cover with a damaged cliche which must be from the latest printings.

Image

opkedia

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 16 Aug 2012 02:52
by jadrake
Wanted to provide an update on my transactions on ebay with world_phil. When informed I was not happy with the state of the Morvi stamps he issued a complete refund (I do not need to return them - and so will keep them as an example of what to avoid). So while we may question many/some of the items, and the dodgy "unauthenticated" text, he is honest with dealing with complaints (kind of reminds me of the fisherman who fishes for an out-of-season fish, and if caught with it states they only caught it by accident and were in the process of releasing it....)

I have since used my "rebate" to add a couple of New Zealand Officials he has (I know no one here on this thread cares) and I decided to cave in on the Travancore-Cochin 1/2 anna imperf vertical pair, and horizontal and vertical imperf between pairs. Figured it would make a nice presentation page in my album. :-)

Glad to see you agree with the Charkhari 31d. The price I paid was decent (about 50% CV) but would have been a disaster if it had been 31!

Cheers

-Jason

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 16 Aug 2012 10:55
by tonymacg
Well, I'm happy to hear that world_phil did the right thing over the Morvi, and particularly that he didn't ask for them back. I wouldn't want to see them reappear on eBay. Still not happy about the 'unauthenticateds', though. I suspect he acquired them at genuine prices, and is reluctant to suffer the loss on them - but perhaps I'm being too cynical.

That long Charkhari Arms set is worth paying more attention to. Dan Walker reported some unlisted types in India Post a few issues ago, and I wouldn't be surprised if yet more WWII emergency printings came to light. Unlike the Pictorials, these were genuine postage stamps, and saw real and relatively extensive use.

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 16 Aug 2012 11:30
by jadrake
btw: I looked at that Charkhari Bluish-Slate and I don't see any signs of laid-line fibers on the back. Just your normal chaotic fibers of woven paper.

-Jason

P.S. Thanks for the Orchha perf chart. I'll get back to you on the 15 stamps on whether there was anything new found.

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 16 Aug 2012 11:41
by tonymacg
Ah well, I was staring hard at the paper of the Charkhari 1 Pice, trying to will myself to see the laid lines. I don't suppose any dealer worth his salt would have let a laid paper sell for the price of a wove :D

The perforations of the Orchha 1935 set are quite extraordinarily complex. Without a doubt, there are still discoveries to be made there, too. Please do let me know if you make any.

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 17 Aug 2012 08:14
by makielb
Tony-
Any comments on this particular item?

Image

It is offered as Scott 15 (1926, dark blue, perf 11, vertically laid paper)

So, two questions - Is the stamp legit? Is the cancel legit?

Thanks

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 17 Aug 2012 09:56
by tonymacg
Mike, a resounding No on both counts :D I'd be a little surprised if it's actually on laid paper as well.

This is what that stamp (SG 19) should look like:

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The cancellation is also artfully obscure, but here is what those double-ring CDSs should look like:

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 17 Aug 2012 12:12
by birder
Image


eBay seller world_phil is offering a number of fake Barwanis.

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 17 Aug 2012 13:05
by makielb
Interestingly, the one I posted was not on eBay. But, it appears to be the same stamp- curious.

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 17 Aug 2012 13:44
by tonymacg
There are a great many of these things in circulation. Is it exactly the same, or very similar?

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 17 Aug 2012 14:23
by birder
I think I have caused some confusion.

eBay seller world_phil is selling a number of fake Barwanis. These can be seen at

https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_nkw=barwani&_sacat=0&_odkw=& ... world_phil



The image posted earlier

Image

is NOT one of the stamps being offered by world_phil.

Sorry for the confusion I have caused.

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 17 Aug 2012 14:39
by Micky
Hi all, here is the only ugly I found during my trip to China. Is it considered ugly? I like the cancel nice and clean almost full. The left border is very thick is that normal?

Image

Michael

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 17 Aug 2012 14:53
by tonymacg
Perfectly OK, Mickey, and a nice example of Alwar SG 3, with an Alwar (written Ulwar in those days) Town CDS. Here is the same thing, used with a couple of SG 2s

Image

You can find just about everything you could ever want to know about your stamp in this thread: https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16831

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 17 Aug 2012 14:57
by Micky
Thanks Tony, I will have a look at the thread when I return home tonight. My first ugly what a strange thing to say :D

Micky thanks you

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 17 Aug 2012 15:07
by tonymacg
Micky, the only 'strange' part about it is that it's only your first :lol:

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 17 Aug 2012 19:20
by mukulgarga
My first Bamra Postcard :D

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 17 Aug 2012 21:19
by tonymacg
This used copy has pride of place in my Bamra collection:

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 17 Aug 2012 23:32
by mukulgarga
I have still not got the lot but the 2nd stamp in Top row looks to be a SG3a but mint is not listed in Gibbons !! :o
and the last one is a SG9 3 docra orange-yellow but again used is not listed in Gibbons or the cancellation is fake ? :o

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and here is a genuinely used lot :D

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 18 Aug 2012 00:34
by tonymacg
Someone else who knows Nawanagar better than I may care to comment. I usually avoid it, because it's just too complicated, and all the references are buried in century-old copies of the Philatelic Journal of India.

That said, I think you'd need a second opinion on the possible SG 3a. To me, the frame lines just don't look thick enough. I don't own a copy myself, but this illustration is from the Haverbeck auction of (what is now) an SG 3:

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I can't comment on the cancellation on the 3 Docra. I've seen similar cancellations

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but I've no idea whether they've been forged.

I remember seeing somewhere some discussion of these RAD cancellations. Questions had been raised as to their actual significance. I admit I feel more comfortable with the seal cancellations

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This one is on SG 13, but I have what looks to be the same on SG 1 as well. But as I said, Nawanagar really isn't my thing :D

I'm also wary of the coloured papers. They do tend to fade and discolour. Having said that, I don't have an unquestionable orange-yellow paper 3 Docra used - for what that's worth :D

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 18 Aug 2012 00:59
by jadrake
The paper is definitely note deep mauve.

I have a very limited selection to reference, but these two are ex-Flack

SG 6 in Deep Mauve (The printing is very heavy - almost like a double printing)
Image

SG 6a on Rose - this paper is closer to your stamp
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 18 Aug 2012 01:06
by mukulgarga
I agree with you jadrake. I missed out on the paper colour. It is either SG6a- rose or most probably SG 7- magenta (stamp 14 mm wide). I would have to measure the stamp when I get it.

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 18 Aug 2012 11:29
by mukulgarga
These couple of Idars I saw on ebay look doubtful to me.Or am I imagining?

Image

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 18 Aug 2012 11:43
by tonymacg
There are some odd things of Idar around. You occasionally see Idar postal stationery covers offered: they're completely bogus. Idar never issued postal stationery.

On the other hand, that second type ½ Anna was reprinted at least once, producing the yellow-green shade. I regard funny-looking Idar (like these) with suspicion, but until I can examine them in person, it isn't easy to be sure. These two aren't as obviously fake as, say, the Morvi posted further up the page.

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 18 Aug 2012 14:20
by jadrake
Since they were my Morvi... ahem.... I compared these Idar's to my SG 3 and 3b which I purchased from Gibbons.... The color is certainly different. The blue-green is well blue-green. Yours seems almost deep green / slate-green in coloring. The lighter one is more similiar to my copy, but even so the color is a little more olive? than I'd expect. I am half a mind to say they might be ok. One point ... in mine the dots in the background (around the head) are definitily in a diamond pattern. Yours (in the scan) look a little more choatic in nature - that could be a tell tale sign. Someone should check the number of pearls (from experience with Western Samoa issues). Interestingly enough in my SG3 the balls look smaller than on the SG3b. The type face of the fonts looks ok. Also your paper (on the left one anyways) looks laid horizontally - which does not appear on mine. (I also have SG5 and 6 but didn't both posting since it was the 1/2a below)

For reference:
Image Image

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 18 Aug 2012 14:29
by jadrake
Now I am curious... my SG5 and 6 (see below) are almost the exact printing quality of the SG 3. But the SG 3b shows definitely more detail. At least in Gibbons they only list a single date of issue, but normally a different shade color is printed at a later time. If this was the case, the dies would be more worn and thus be cruder. I doubt Idar would have commissioned a new die for a 1/2a yellow-green. So was SG3b the first then? And then switch to a new color for the SG 3? Or perhaps the ink used on the 1/2a was thinner leaving a more detailed print with stronger adhesion and less bleeding/expasion? Curious situation this is.....

ImageImage

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 18 Aug 2012 14:36
by jadrake
Interesting note about the dark green one. The imperfs are on the same side. They were in booklet panes of four. So you either have a top or bottom edge imperfs and either the top/bottom and the "right" edge imperf. There was a imperf vertical pair (worth 350GBP) so if this was real someone along the way torn/cut the top or bottom off the pair! (kind of a I ripped the stamps off the envelope and burned the envelope story)

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 18 Aug 2012 15:19
by jadrake
On the topic of Jammu and Kashmir I have been meaning to post images from a small collection I purchased last year but haven't filed yet..... It has a very good provenance (however unfortunately it is only for the 1883 set, I had hoped to pick up the 1881 set from the same former collection from Geoffrey Flack but it had sold elsewhere....

The Provenance
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x373/jadrake/Stamp%20Ima ... enance.jpg

Page 1
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x373/jadrake/Stamp%20Ima ... -Page1.jpg

Page 2
Pay close attention to the last two stamps - they have the blurred printing and the one on the left is extreme.
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x373/jadrake/Stamp%20Ima ... -Page2.jpg

Page 3
The sage-green is interesting. When you look at it under increased magnification it is blotchy with patches of a emerald-green along with an almost olive color (they appear to have almost separated - I will definitely provide a 600DPI image here at some point)
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x373/jadrake/Stamp%20Ima ... -Page3.jpg

At some point I will have the stamps off, hinges removed and scanned against black which will give the true coloring (the white background on my HP printer tends to over expose the colors a bit)

Cheers

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 18 Aug 2012 16:08
by tonymacg
jadrake wrote:Since they were my Morvi... ahem.... I compared these Idar's to my SG 3 and 3b which I purchased from Gibbons.... The color is certainly different. The blue-green is well blue-green. Yours seems almost deep green / slate-green in coloring. The lighter one is more similiar to my copy, but even so the color is a little more olive? than I'd expect. I am half a mind to say they might be ok. One point ... in mine the dots in the background (around the head) are definitily in a diamond pattern. Yours (in the scan) look a little more choatic in nature - that could be a tell tale sign. Someone should check the number of pearls (from experience with Western Samoa issues). Interestingly enough in my SG3 the balls look smaller than on the SG3b. The type face of the fonts looks ok. Also your paper (on the left one anyways) looks laid horizontally - which does not appear on mine. (I also have SG5 and 6 but didn't both posting since it was the 1/2a below)

For reference:
Image Image
Looking back at those eBay Idar, I have to say I don't like the look of the perforations - at all. Take that in combination with the curious quality of the print, and I'd say they're certainly suspect.

As far as I know (which isn't very far at all :D ), the blue-green printing of the ½ Anna came first

Image

followed by the yellow-green printing

Image

Image

at some later date. However, used - let alone clearly dated used - are so scarce, I certainly couldn't say for sure. The ½ Anna cover looks to be mss dated 1946, which puts the cover mid-way between the 1944 issue date of the second types, and the 1948 closure date for the Idar State post.

I don't know anything of the printing plates used. P.G. Mehta of Himmatnagar wasn't in the same class as Bradbury, Wilkinson or De La Rue in the security printing business. They may not have realised just how quickly the plates would deteriorate, or quite how much care of them was required to produce good impressions. That could account for a certain amount of variability.

The missing row of perfs in the eBay lot could mean everything or nothing. This wouldn't be the first time in an Indian State when someone had despaired of the perforations, and whipped out the PO scissors instead.

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 18 Aug 2012 16:36
by tonymacg
jadrake wrote:On the topic of Jammu and Kashmir I have been meaning to post images from a small collection I purchased last year but haven't filed yet..... It has a very good provenance (however unfortunately it is only for the 1883 set, I had hoped to pick up the 1881 set from the same former collection from Geoffrey Flack but it had sold elsewhere....

The Provenance
https://www.stampboards.com/images/jadrake/Stamp%20Images/Ind ... enance.jpg

Page 1
https://www.stampboards.com/images/jadrake/Stamp%20Images/Ind ... -Page1.jpg

Page 2
Pay close attention to the last two stamps - they have the blurred printing and the one on the left is extreme.
https://www.stampboards.com/images/jadrake/Stamp%20Images/Ind ... -Page2.jpg

Page 3
The sage-green is interesting. When you look at it under increased magnification it is blotchy with patches of a emerald-green along with an almost olive color (they appear to have almost separated - I will definitely provide a 600DPI image here at some point)
https://www.stampboards.com/images/jadrake/Stamp%20Images/Ind ... -Page3.jpg

At some point I will have the stamps off, hinges removed and scanned against black which will give the true coloring (the white background on my HP printer tends to over expose the colors a bit)

Cheers


I was mildly surprised to see from the Provenance, that this collection seems to have been made by an Australian or New Zealand collector. Nice to know I'm not utterly alone :lol:

Your comments on the sage-green 4 Anna on page 3, reminded me of the earlier sage-green Circulars, including SG 35

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Here is detail of the lower part of the stamp:

Image

How does SG 35 compare with your 4 Anna? They were made possibly seven years apart (1877 for SG 33, against 1884 for the multi-coloured New Rectangulars).

I hope you've bookmarked the reproductions of Séfi & Mortimer on these stamps, on the Collecting Kashmir Web site, https://www.kashmirstamps.ca/SMcontents.html. Try to complete these as per Séfi and Mortimer, and you'll have your work cut out for you :D

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 18 Aug 2012 16:53
by jadrake
Yes the sage-green is very similiar, except instead of your dark spotches it is a very bright emerald color (almost shocked me when I looked at it under magnification. I'll be sure to include that one in my larger scans on black for my filing.

As for Australia - funny how it ended up in Geoffrey's hands in Canada and then on to the US. I guess good stamps get passed around (afterall I keep buying material from the UK)

-Jason

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 18 Aug 2012 17:17
by tonymacg
The 1877 sage-green was obviously quite unsatisfactory. The printers probably re-formulated it when they came to use it again, seven to ten years later.

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 19 Aug 2012 01:37
by jadrake
As I was looking through my Hyderabad online (I know and the album was only 2 feet away) .... I noticed something odd about my SG47: There appears to almost have a syncopated perforation along the vertical sides. The other stamps I have in this series do not have this. If it was a short/stunted perf we sould have seen a partial indentation but to clearly looks "torn" away esp. on the left side. These stamps in this set are generally well perforated so this is kind of odd. It is strange that it was one perf off on the right than the left too. All things being equal, Uglies are not known for their perforations, but this does seem a little more purposeful. Could this have been some sort of feature to hold the sheets more firmly together? A security feature? A faulting perforation machine (that some how shifted one perf?)

Image

Anyone have thoughts on this?

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 19 Aug 2012 02:12
by jadrake
As promised some better scans of Jammu and Kashmir from the collection (the complete 4a and 8a shades + a few unlisted shades) SG 155-161a


SG 155 Deep Green
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SG156 Green
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SG Unlisted (Bright Green)
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SG Unlisted (Dull Green)
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SG 157 Pale Green
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SG158: Sage Green (1200DPI Scan)
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SG 159a Deep Blue
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SG159 Pale Blue
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SG 160 Bright Blue
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SG 161 Indigo-Blue
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SG undefined (Violet-Blue)
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SG 161a Slate-Lilac (labelled as Slate-Blue in the collection)
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 19 Aug 2012 02:17
by jadrake
Two of the more interesting items... labeled as 2a "blurred prints from the dirty printing plate"

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This is very blurred and a really nice item....

Image

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 19 Aug 2012 10:34
by tonymacg
jadrake wrote:As I was looking through my Hyderabad online (I know and the album was only 2 feet away) .... I noticed something odd about my SG47: There appears to almost have a syncopated perforation along the vertical sides. The other stamps I have in this series do not have this. If it was a short/stunted perf we sould have seen a partial indentation but to clearly looks "torn" away esp. on the left side. These stamps in this set are generally well perforated so this is kind of odd. It is strange that it was one perf off on the right than the left too. All things being equal, Uglies are not known for their perforations, but this does seem a little more purposeful. Could this have been some sort of feature to hold the sheets more firmly together? A security feature? A faulting perforation machine (that some how shifted one perf?)

Image

Anyone have thoughts on this?
Took a quick look across my copies and couldn't find anything similar, so I'd guess this was a once-off occurrence.

The set was line perforated

Image

so perhaps this was a defective junction between rows of perforations. The junction occurring in the middle of a stamp must surely have been a mistake.

Perhaps someone more familiar with 'proper' perforating techniques could comment. I'm more at home with sewing machines as perforators than the more purpose-built variety :lol:

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 19 Aug 2012 10:49
by tonymacg
jadrake wrote:As promised some better scans of Jammu and Kashmir from the collection (the complete 4a and 8a shades + a few unlisted shades) SG 155-161a

SG158: Sage Green (1200DPI Scan)
Image
Really very curious. I don't have anything like it in the 4 Annas.

It certainly looks like a watercolour printing. Of course, the only two listed watercolour printings of the New Rectangulars are the rare 1880 ¼ Anna blue and the 8 Anna on laid and wove.

Two possibilities immediately spring to mind: it's an unrecognised printing in Gibbons - but it would need to checked against Séfi & Mortimer, whose checklists are very thorough - and it's a forgery. Here is the 4 Anna sheet:

Image

If the type of your 4 Anna doesn't match one of the eight types of the genuine sheet, then it has to be relegated. I have a forgery of the 8 Anna watercolour, although better printed than your specimen, and watercolour forgeries of all values and various origins certainly do exist.

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 19 Aug 2012 10:58
by maptrekker
Image
This would be the result if a pin is broken on a line perforator. In this case the pin was broken on the vertical line perforator. Every stamp in that row would have the missing perforations until the perforator was repaired or replaced.

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 19 Aug 2012 12:27
by jadrake
tonymacg wrote: Really very curious. I don't have anything like it in the 4 Annas.

It certainly looks like a watercolour printing. Of course, the only two listed watercolour printings of the New Rectangulars are the rare 1880 ¼ Anna blue and the 8 Anna on laid and wove.

Two possibilities immediately spring to mind: it's an unrecognised printing in Gibbons - but it would need to checked against Séfi & Mortimer, whose checklists are very thorough - and it's a forgery. Here is the 4 Anna sheet:
If the type of your 4 Anna doesn't match one of the eight types of the genuine sheet, then it has to be relegated. I have a forgery of the 8 Anna watercolour, although better printed than your specimen, and watercolour forgeries of all values and various origins certainly do exist.
Hmmm... a few comments, I do not believe it is a watercolor (I for one have never had it touch water). The "blending" of color is definitely odd but it is more like an expansion across the paper vs. smeared. Given the whiteness of the remaining design, I would've expected to see some lighter coloration here. It is almost like when they mixed the colors, the emerald portion was not particularly well distributed and so the remaining olive-color (not sure the other color) was more absorbing or penetrated the paper more? Again the scan does not do it full justice as the brighter green coloring really does jump when looking at it at an angle under microscope. Any idea how I go about plating this? From looking at the details below it does look like it could be Row 1, stamp 3 or R2,S1 (more likely I think) - I tried to judge based on the swirls and locations etc.

Looking at the bright green "stuff" again, it does almost look like it is on the surface whereas the olive-greeny color is definitely "in paper". I wonder if they mixed the color up and to get the sage green they added emerald paint (because this is the only color I can describe it) and got the wrong mixture or had the paint too "watery" just than when it was applied it literally soaked in to the paper leaving the emerald green

Image taken zoomed in to top left corner showing distribution
Image

Attempt to show the emerald color through the loop.
Image

It kind of reminds me of copper. You know how if you have copper piping and it turns green. I wonder if there is a chemical oxidizing forming this spots? It does not look like I could scrape them off however - perhaps a reaction with something in the fibers of the paper?'

Or - it could be a fake.... How common would it be for a collection with this provenance to win that many medals with a fake stamp? I am sure someone of the level of experts on this board had an opportunity to examine the collection at some point over the past 35 years.

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 19 Aug 2012 12:52
by tonymacg
Jason, the printers certainly weren't above experimenting with their inks, even after the great burst of experimentation in 1876-8. They tried, and then abandoned, turmeric in the inks for the 1/8 Anna. This might have been another experiment to combine two immiscible pigments.

As to the genuineness question: I could post a 1200 dpi scan of that 4 Anna sheet, if you think it would help. (The scan I showed is an old file copy, probably done at 300 or 600 dpi.)

A medal-winning provenance for a collection isn't a guarantee that all items in the collection are 100% OK, unfortunately. Stamps can be added after the collection was exhibited; stamps can be re-classified, in the light of later knowledge, as either legitimate or illegitimate, or of doubtful parentage. You only have to look at some of the questionable experimental printings of the Jammu & Kashmir Circulars from the 1876-8 period: depending on whom you ask, and when, some may be probably legitimate, or probably illegitimate, or absolutely legitimate or absolutely illegitimate.

None of which is to question your 4 Anna. If you can definitely plate it, it's probably a genuine printing from the plate. The next question is whether it was ever legitimately issued and used.

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 20 Aug 2012 03:01
by mukulgarga
If the Bloody Fool would have left it alone it would have been at least worth 15 GBP :( :(

Image

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 20 Aug 2012 10:16
by tonymacg
Image

And I suppose some poor (morally, if not financially) fool trying to complete a George VI collection used will snap this up. If you can believe in neat corner cancels on an Orchha 1 Rupee stamp, then believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden wouldn't be a problem :D

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 20 Aug 2012 12:12
by Szykney
mukulgarga wrote::D :D

Image

JAMMU & KASHMIR: Combination cover from Kashmir (Sept 3) via Sialkot to Amritsar (Sept 8th) circa 1881-83. India Queen Vict. ½a Blue Postal Stationary Envelope additionally f.w ½a Orange, Imperf. (SG 132) on Thin Batonne paper. F/VF Condition. This cover was part of an award winning collection of Jammu Kashmir. Ex- Fleck collection
The cover above looked somewhat familiar. Here's a similar cover that was in an India lot I purchased a number of years ago.

Someone sure put a lot of effort in tying the stamp on the back to the envelope.

Image
Image

Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 20 Aug 2012 13:34
by amfhf1
Hi guys, this is finishing on ebay tonight.

Thought I would put a few pictures in here of this lot, biggest accumalation of uglies I have seen in a while.

Did make a bid but appears its going to go high.

Thought I would get your comments thanks.

Photobucket being very slow tonight can not seem to upload any more pictures heres a link to look at the rest.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221102445482?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX ... fresh=true

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Posted: 20 Aug 2012 14:55
by tonymacg
Tony, that's a very fine example of the lengths senders would go to to prevent the theft of their stamps. I created a small thread on these anti-theft devices in India and the States here: http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=34779. Your cover would fit in well there :D