Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

amfhf1 wrote:Hi guys, this is finishing on ebay tonight.

Thought I would put a few pictures in here of this lot, biggest accumalation of uglies I have seen in a while.

Did make a bid but appears its going to go high.

Thought I would get your comments thanks.

Photobucket being very slow tonight can not seem to upload any more pictures heres a link to look at the rest.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221102445482?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX ... fresh=true

Image

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I had a look at that lot, too, but I see that it's already up to £206. A nice enough lot, and while it has a few Bhopal reprints/imitations, some of the Duttia look very fishy, some Orchha Jeweller's Essays, a few Soruth reprints/imitations, a few doubtful and forged Jammu & Kashmir and a fake Bamra, the overall quality is a lot better than usual for such collections.

At around the £200 - £300 mark, it would make a useful starter collection of the Indian States. Though I don't see anything (obviously) of great specialist interest, you'd never know until you got your hands on it, and inspected each stamp. The Bundi Sacred Cows are a nice range, and who knows? There might be a rare Setting nestling in there.

I'm not bidding, but good luck to anyone here who is. If they're successful, I hope they'll show us what they win :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

And to commemorate post 7000 to this thread ... I've been sorting through a batch of Hyderabad (of all things :D ) covers and cards which have just arrived. Nothing extraordinary, but it did include this nice pairing of the 8 Pies, SG 42, from the worn and unworn plates:

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The postmarks date it to 1358 F or 1948 CE, so in the dying days of the Nizam's Dominions.

There was also this rather charming postcard

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Too late to belong to the classic Bazaar Card era, but it would still fit well with those types.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

SG9 I presume on orange-yellow paper.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Hard to be sure: I think the paper has faded. You'd probably need to know the setting in order to know what paper it was supposed to be on :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by peterh »

tonymacg wrote:
amfhf1 wrote:Hi guys, this is finishing on ebay tonight.

Thought I would put a few pictures in here of this lot, biggest accumalation of uglies I have seen in a while.

Did make a bid but appears its going to go high.

Thought I would get your comments thanks.

Photobucket being very slow tonight can not seem to upload any more pictures heres a link to look at the rest.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221102445482?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX ... fresh=true

Image

Image
I had a look at that lot, too, but I see that it's already up to £206. A nice enough lot, and while it has a few Bhopal reprints/imitations, some of the Duttia look very fishy, some Orchha Jeweller's Essays, a few Soruth reprints/imitations, a few doubtful and forged Jammu & Kashmir and a fake Bamra, the overall quality is a lot better than usual for such collections.

At around the £200 - £300 mark, it would make a useful starter collection of the Indian States. Though I don't see anything (obviously) of great specialist interest, you'd never know until you got your hands on it, and inspected each stamp. The Bundi Sacred Cows are a nice range, and who knows? There might be a rare Setting nestling in there.

I'm not bidding, but good luck to anyone here who is. If they're successful, I hope they'll show us what they win :D

I had this on my watch list as well, but went for £695 in the end!!

As Tony says, a decent enough clean starter collection with some of the usual suspects amongst the reprints and imitations.

One stamp that does appear good is what looks like a nice mint Bhopal SG 1, although not identified as such, it is marked '11' in pencil. Whether it was that which attracted the bidders, who knows?

I hope it wasn't those very suspicious-looking early Duttia that drove the price up!

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by Namaste »

I had an eye on this (and a few earlier bids) with the thought of kick starting my uglies but... 695! Without knowing more about feudatory stamps in general this was too much for me. Is that a typical or fair price for a set of this kind?

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Namaste wrote:I had an eye on this (and a few earlier bids) with the thought of kick starting my uglies but... 695! Without knowing more about feudatory stamps in general this was too much for me. Is that a typical or fair price for a set of this kind?
That is the £695 question :D

I didn't see that possible Bhopal SG 1 that peterh mentioned. It could be, too. If someone else thought it was, then £695 is very cheap: Bhopal SG 1 is (under-)catalogued at £900 mint.

Leaving that aside, I can think of two classes of buyer who might go that high.

One class would be collectors wanting to kick-start their collections, like you Namaste. Once upon a time, collections like this would have sold for a fraction of that price, but the Indian States are being re-rated. That makes it very hard to predict what collections will fetch, because they're not really selling on a catalogue-value basis, but rather for their value as a foundation.

The other class would be dealers, looking to re-stock. Again, it was once fairly easy to acquire the run-of-the-mill decent Indian States stamps for stock, from auctions etc. No more. Dealer offerings are growing thinner and thinner, it gets harder and harder for them to find new stock, and, if the 2013 Gibbons accurately reflects trends in the market, prices are just about to get another solid boost.

I compared this price with the prices reached by two Alwar covers, with copies of SG 3, of a bit over $US200 each on eBay just the other day. Alwar isn't in the same league for popularity as Jammu & Kashmir or Jaipur, or Cochin, but these two covers cost about half what that collection sold for. How's that for relativity? If that was a Bhopal SG 1 in the collection, then all bets are off :D If it wasn't, or other bidders didn't notice it, I still think the Alwar covers were too cheap - or the collection was too expensive.

Which is all a long-winded way of saying I really don't know if the price was fair or typical :lol:
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by psphani »

tonymacg wrote:
Namaste wrote:I had an eye on this (and a few earlier bids) with the thought of kick starting my uglies but... 695! Without knowing more about feudatory stamps in general this was too much for me. Is that a typical or fair price for a set of this kind?
That is the £695 question :D

I didn't see that possible Bhopal SG 1 that peterh mentioned. It could be, too. If someone else thought it was, then £695 is very cheap: Bhopal SG 1 is (under-)catalogued at £900 mint.

Leaving that aside, I can think of two classes of buyer who might go that high.

One class would be collectors wanting to kick-start their collections, like you Namaste. Once upon a time, collections like this would have sold for a fraction of that price, but the Indian States are being re-rated. That makes it very hard to predict what collections will fetch, because they're not really selling on a catalogue-value basis, but rather for their value as a foundation.

The other class would be dealers, looking to re-stock. Again, it was once fairly easy to acquire the run-of-the-mill decent Indian States stamps for stock, from auctions etc. No more. Dealer offerings are growing thinner and thinner, it gets harder and harder for them to find new stock, and, if the 2013 Gibbons accurately reflects trends in the market, prices are just about to get another solid boost.

I compared this price with the prices reached by two Alwar covers, with copies of SG 3, of a bit over $US200 each on eBay just the other day. Alwar isn't in the same league for popularity as Jammu & Kashmir or Jaipur, or Cochin, but these two covers cost about half what that collection sold for. How's that for relativity? If that was a Bhopal SG 1 in the collection, then all bets are off :D If it wasn't, or other bidders didn't notice it, I still think the Alwar covers were too cheap - or the collection was too expensive.

Which is all a long-winded way of saying I really don't know if the price was fair or typical :lol:
By the way i did feel the Alwar covers went very cheap. i was surprised to see only 5 bidders fight for it and it was way less than my expectation. I already have 2 alwar covers and thus did not fight for it.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

I thought the Alwar covers were too cheap, too, but I already had an SG 3 cover

Image

so I was content to watch, without bidding too hard. Covers of SG 1 and 2 aren't common, but covers with SG 3 are far, far scarcer. (Another good point about SG 3 - 5 covers is that, as Bookwizards has pointed out, they haven't been faked - anyway, to the extent that SG 1 and 2 covers have :D )
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Possible Bhopal SG1 in £695 lot

Post by The Viking »

Image

Looks much more like an SG44 to me. Aside from any other considerations, SG44 has a frame line to the sheet and the frame lines of the individual stamps are extended across the gutters in both directions. SG1 does not.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

I think we're talking at cross purposes here :D The possible SG 1 is the first stamp in the second row, with the value in two forms.

The poor quality of the images does the seller no favours, though.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

How come cancellation shows the year as '51 on this Jaipur cover when the state post office closed on 7th April 1949 and the Rajasthan PO on 1st April 1950 ?? :?

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by clyfen »

The 51 is not the year, but the post office number. 51 was allocated to Mandawri.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

clyfen wrote:The 51 is not the year, but the post office number. 51 was allocated to Mandawri.
Thanks clyfen. Any source where I can find more about the Indian Postal History?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

I was well beaten to the punch there :D

Here is Numeral 34 of Panwar:

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The best source for these Jaipur Numerals is India Post. Vol. 37 No.157 of November 2003. It has a long article on the subject.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

tonymacg wrote:I was well beaten to the punch there :D

The best source for these Jaipur Numerals is India Post. Vol. 37 No.157 of November 2003. It has a long article on the subject.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by Micky »

You guys got me looking out for these Uglies now :lol: , I found some on line, just waiting for them to arrive in the next week. They are Travancore and Hyderabad and one from Jind. Can't wait to show you and get your feedback on them when they arrive.

Michael

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

mukulgarga wrote:
tonymacg wrote:I was well beaten to the punch there :D

The best source for these Jaipur Numerals is India Post. Vol. 37 No.157 of November 2003. It has a long article on the subject.
These are the hazards of dragging more and more people into your own arena. :lol:
You're quite right. I think I'll delete this thread and go offline :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Micky wrote:You guys got me looking out for these Uglies now :lol: , I found some on line, just waiting for them to arrive in the next week. They are Travancore and Hyderabad and one from Jind. Can't wait to show you and get your feedback on them when they arrive.

Michael
Yes, do post them up Michael. Even if I've gone dark, and if I haven't managed to delete this thread, I'm sure someone will comment :D

More seriously, Hyderabad and Travancore are two of the heavyweights of the Ugly World. That means they were big users of stamps. Remember that, in 1948 when it was absorbed into India, Hyderabad had a population of around 17 million, making it considerably larger than Australia at the time.

But there are real possibilities for real research here, without breaking the bank. Take the Hyderabad 1 Anna of 1931, SG 43, and its 1934 Official overprint, SG O48. Both are 10p stamps. Both are listed in Gibbons as 'brown (shades)'. Well, I just did a rough sort of some of my 1 Anna covers:

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If these were 2/- 'Roos, my old friend & sparring partner PeterS would be having conniption fits. And that's without even considering all the different postage rates represented.

So, Michael, if you want to tackle the Uglies, don't think for a moment that it's all been done, or that you need extra-length pockets to do it :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by jaydee »

Regarding the possible Bhopal SG1 with the pencilled 11, I didn't believe it at first and thought it might be a 'doctored' SG5, which is very similar apart from the single frame lines. But, checking India Post vol. 55 which shows (although not very clearly) the 1/2 anna plate (they used the same plate for the 1/4 anna) and vol. 57 which has a good copy of the SG5 plate, I think it's ok, looks like row 4 posn. 2 and a good copy too! So good luck to whoever spotted it - I'm not sure I'd want to pay that much for a gamble though!



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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by domburd »

Glorious collection of Hyderabad 1 anna covers, Tony. I got this one not so long ago but I haven't done anything with it yet as it looks as though it might result in a headache :D though the urdu mark at the right is definitely from an experimental post office.

Image

Another recent acquisition comes from the last ISC auction which had a couple of bundles of J&K cards and, as there was a very fine article about them in the last India Post, I thought I'd give 'em a go. This one has this curious inscription on the back by a Morovian minister, an F B Showe (?). I don't have anything else like it and was wondering if anyone has anything similar, not just from J&K but from anywhere else. It would be interesting to know if F B Showe made similar purchases of other J&K material. Here's hoping.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Domburd, that really is a most interesting transitional Hyderabad cover. I haven't seen a cut-off date for the Hyderabad State PO, but on the evidence of this cover, Hyderabad Service stamps were no longer being accepted by the 7 April 1950, even though there are a couple of State cancellations there as well. Yet another task to add to the list: find the latest uses of Hyderabad ordinary and Service issues.

Incidentally, that cover would sit beautifully in the Busy Covers thread, http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5688

I haven't seen anything like the inscription on the back of that J&K card, either. From contemporary reports on Leh, it must have been a pretty lonely business being a Moravian missionary there in 1891 :lol:

The missionaries in Kashmir must have been a handfull for the State authorities. There was, of course, the Father Simons affair as well: http://www.kashmirstamps.ca/Simons.html, for those not familiar with it.

I also once had, but have since lost, the autobiography of a Muscular Christian headmaster of a boy's school in Srinagar in the 1880s and 1890s, dedicated to making those wimpish Kashmiris men. One of his schemes involved having his students, all sons of the aristocracy, running around in the mud playing soccer, with a ball consisting of a pig's bladder inside a cowhide skin - thus neatly offending both his Muslim and Hindu students at the same time, while outraging the sensibilities of the students and entertaining the local loafers who were watching the games.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by maptrekker »

Domburd, that really is a most interesting transitional Hyderabad cover. I haven't seen a cut-off date for the Hyderabad State PO, but on the evidence of this cover, Hyderabad Service stamps were no longer being accepted by the 7 April 1950, even though there are a couple of State cancellations there as well. Yet another task to add to the list: find the latest uses of Hyderabad ordinary and Service issues.
M. A. Nayeem puts the merger of the State PO as 1 Apr 1950. He also puts the latest known date for a Hyderabad State postmark as 16 Dec 1952.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Should have checked Nayeem first :oops:
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

peterh wrote:
mukulgarga wrote::D :D :D :D

Image
Looks to be perf 11½, so possibly the basic stamp is not a reprint, however the overprint is likely to be an imitation printed vertically.

I am sure domburd will comment when he sees it.
domburd any comments about this one?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by Micky »

Hi all, I seen this online and like to know if it is one of the real or fake uglies and worth the $13. And another thing, where on earth does it come from, it looks like something I made when I was in kindergarten.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Michael, compare it with my avatar :lol: The answer to where? is Poonch. Yours is the Official use version in black; civilian stamps were printed in red.

It looks OK to me. Here is an example of SG O5, the version on laid paper:

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Is it worth $13? Not cheap, but it has a genuinely commercially used look about it, so I'd go for it. But I would say that, wouldn't I?

Incidentally, Gibbons prices the version on laid paper used at £15 (£11 mint), but the version on wove paper used is unpriced (£11 mint). But before you become too agitated, I have two used copies of the 4 Anna on wove paper, so I don't understand why Gibbons don't price it.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by Micky »

I will give it a 10 minute think over :lol: , nice Avatar you have it looks familiar :oops: .

Thought about it, I will grab it :D

Many thanks Tony, you must be known as the King of Ugly stamp world and I don't mean that in a bad way but more for your knowledge and I appreciate your help.

Michael kindergarten of the ugly world.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Just remember that there was a single die of each of the values (¼, ½, 1, 2 and 4 Annas) engraved on brass, and it was stamped out as many times as needed onto sheets of paper, with the spaces for the stamps ruled in pencil

Image

You do find a bit of variation between stamps :D

Anyway, most stamp designers in the 19th century looked back over their shoulders at the Penny Black. The designer of the Poonch stamps didn't: he had his commission, 'design some postage stamps', and he just went away and did it, without reference to what anyone else was doing or had done. If you can love his work (obviously, I do), you display great sophistication and good taste. So there :evil:
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by Micky »

I think I should stick to KGV and Aussie state stamps, I would not have the foggiest if anything I see is real or fake, I suppose spending $1 - $10 is not a big loss as long as I don't always do it :oops:

Anyway some more I found are they real uglies as in not fakes?

Image
Image
Image

Thanks guys
Michael

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

Received in Post this nice Bundi cover with SG66 pmk dated 22nd June'36 . My first Bundi Cover :)

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Micky wrote:I think I should stick to KGV and Aussie state stamps, I would not have the foggiest if anything I see is real or fake, I suppose spending $1 - $10 is not a big loss as long as I don't always do it :oops:

Anyway some more I found are they real uglies as in not fakes?

Image
Image
Image

Thanks guys
Michael
The last is a revenue stamp, which I'll gladly leave to Ikanek to comment on :D

The first - sheet - is perfectly genuine. These were famously printed in the Jaipur Jail. Here are the three top values of the set, including your ½ Anna, used on a registered cover, and paying the 3½ anna rate:

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Your second item is also perfectly genuine. If you look at the labels around the centre, you'll see they give the value ("1 ANNA") in four different languages: Hindi, Telegu, Persian and English. The ancestor of your stamps

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appeared in 1870. I'll stick my neck out and say it was the first stamp in the world to appear inscribed in four different languages :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

mukulgarga wrote:Received in Post this nice Bundi cover with SG66 pmk dated 22nd June'36 . My first Bundi Cover :)

Image
Very nice - but not enough! We need to know the cliché and Setting as well :lol:
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

tonymacg wrote:
mukulgarga wrote:
Very nice - but not enough! We need to know the cliché and Setting as well :lol:
You keep on throwing that "cliche and settings" horror story :D at me but don't worry I am not scared. Will dip in that too :lol: and would let you know all the settings :P
Before that have a look at this

Image
Image

By the way stamp is SG126 (typo)
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by Micky »

Oh fantastic news to hear thanks Tony, Genuine and can't wait to start understanding them. I paid a bit for them but I don't mind $20 for the 3 lots.

And now for my newest favourite although I have no idea on the Fiscal but I think I have one of the earliest known fingerprints :lol: :lol: it could be from last week too :lol: . A fun one for 20cents.
Image

Michael

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

mukulgarga wrote:
tonymacg wrote:
mukulgarga wrote:
Very nice - but not enough! We need to know the cliché and Setting as well :lol:
You keep on throwing that "cliche and settings" horror story :D at me but don't worry I am not scared. Will dip in that too :lol: and would let you know all the settings :P
Before that have a look at this

Image
Image

By the way stamp is SG126 (typo)
Quite nice, but nothing exceptional that I can see: a $15 to $20 item, I'd say.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Micky wrote:Oh fantastic news to hear thanks Tony, Genuine and can't wait to start understanding them. I paid a bit for them but I don't mind $20 for the 3 lots.

And now for my newest favourite although I have no idea on the Fiscal but I think I have one of the earliest known fingerprints :lol: :lol: it could be from last week too :lol: . A fun one for 20cents.
Image

Michael
Another one for Ikanek!

Thumbprints, though, turn up all over the place. This one from the printer of Barwani SG 17 (proof that it's genuine?)

Image

is one of my favourites :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by Micky »

Oh your block of 4 looks great, the perf is a bit off with an added Fingerprint and each one has a different looking Quarter Anna above the head. Thanks for showing Tony 8) cool stuff.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by ikanek »

Micky wrote: Image
This is a common revenue stamp from Indian state Rajkot. They came in several sizes, but all of them are common unless you have imperforate between pair or printed both sides. :lol:

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by ikanek »

Micky wrote: And now for my newest favourite although I have no idea on the Fiscal but I think I have one of the earliest known fingerprints :lol: :lol: it could be from last week too :lol: . A fun one for 20cents.
Image

Michael
Michael, this is a revenue stamp from Baroda (Indian state). There are two varieties - you have the local print which is more crude in design.

Fingerprint on revenue stamps in India and on documents are very common. The reason is very obvious: illiterate people not able to sign the form used fingerprint. If you like them, you can become an expert in them and you may worked at the police department. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by domburd »

mukulgarga wrote:
peterh wrote:
mukulgarga wrote::D :D :D :D

Image
Looks to be perf 11½, so possibly the basic stamp is not a reprint, however the overprint is likely to be an imitation printed vertically.

I am sure domburd will comment when he sees it.
domburd any comments about this one?

Mukulgarga, I see I was asked about this item a while ago, so many apologies for not getting back to you sooner.

First of all, peterh is right that the stamp is perfectly ok, the colour is right and, as as far as I can ascertain, the perfs are spot on too. The problem is all with the overprint. As a rule of thumb it is wise to follow Gibbons' note underneath SGO3, "Imitations of these overprints on genuine stamps and on reprints are found horizontally or vertically in various shades of red, in magenta and in black." In my view this includes diagonal impressions as well.

This direction should cover about 99.9% of all examples, HOWEVER, there are a few exceptions to the rule when you start digging deeper and begin reading the articles written by L E Dawson on the subject, the last of which appeared in the PJI in July 1946 (It is best to ignore Nayeem in this instance as he only appears to address stamps that were plate printed. He then also fails to point out that his Fig. O1, Fig. O1a and Fig. O2 on page 207 of his book were, in fact, handstamped!).

A glance at his second article, in 1939, gives us probably the best clue in identifying your stamp. Confusingly, Dawson's second and third articles use different numbering systems for the overprints and your overprint most resembles his overprint (viii) (1939) and Type B (1946)

In his second article, Dawson clearly states of the above overprint, "...all specimens with it are to be condemned." This is also the only time he mentions diagonal overprints. No mention of them is made in the 1946 article. Only the occasional inverted overprint and one or two vertical overprints seem to pass muster with Dawson.

In my own collection I have numerous copies of vertical and diagonal handstamps and as a rule I always consign them to the Reprints and Forgeries folder unless Dawson specifically states to the contrary. I even have examples of the above overprint with seemingly genuine cancellations which must have been applied with unscrupulous intent like this...

Image

Even examples on cover, which I fail to possess, have to be treated carefully with respect to how the stamp is 'tied' to the cover.

So, all in all, welcome to the headache that is The Handstamped Sarkari Overprints of Hyderabad. Alas, it seems your stamp is, at best, a reprint and, at worst (and most probably), a forgery. Sorry I could not have been the bringer of better news.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

My contribution:

Image

Both on the perf 12½ reprints :(
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

Thanks domburd for the help.
Bad luck for me :( .
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

Genuine? The stamps seems to be OK but the cancellation is suspect. Any examples of Genuine cancellation.

Image
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

I haven't really seen enough genuine Jasdan cancellations to be certain. On the one hand, it certainly resembles those I have seen. On the other hand, I believe Jasdan used rubber, not steel, devices - and that looks like steel, or an imitation of steel. (A quick run through the India Post archive only produced references to rubber devices.)

The postmark deserves close attention. If it can be shown to have been made with a rubber implement, it might be OK, if the source of the stamp was above reproach :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Another case of so near, and yet so far :D

If only the Duttia postman had bothered to actually cancel this postcard

Image

Image

it would have cost twice what I paid for it on eBay.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by birder »

tonymacg wrote:Another case of so near, and yet so far :D

If only the Duttia postman had bothered to actually cancel this postcard

Image

Image

it would have cost twice what I paid for it on eBay.
Do you know the reason why the post man did not cancel it ?

I think it was because it was addressed to the Postmaster himself.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

... and the postmaster trusted himself not to reuse the postcard :lol: (Thanks for making sense of the address! I just took one look at it and shuddered.)

That certainly seems the most likely explanation. I just wonder, though, whether sometimes in some of the States, the post offices decided that there wasn't any need to cancel well used postcards, because they couldn't be reused anyway, like this one from Dhar:

Image

Envelopes, at least sometimes, at least in Dhar, were cancelled, though:

Image
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

tonymacg wrote:I haven't really seen enough genuine Jasdan cancellations to be certain. On the one hand, it certainly resembles those I have seen. On the other hand, I believe Jasdan used rubber, not steel, devices - and that looks like steel, or an imitation of steel. (A quick run through the India Post archive only produced references to rubber devices.)

The postmark deserves close attention. If it can be shown to have been made with a rubber implement, it might be OK, if the source of the stamp was above reproach :D
You seem to have a good logic there Tony. The genuine cancellation would look more like this one on the cover.

Image
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

I only have this one example (on cover)

Image

so I hesitate to generalise from it :D

Assuming the stamp is an SG 4, from 1946, I'd have expected a lot more deterioration in a rubber device over the four years. Of course, itmight be from one of the smaller village post offices, but there isn't enough of the cancellation to tell. This is an example of the sort of deterioration the rubber cancellations from Idar suffered after a few years of use:

Image

Naturally, one has to be cautious when the multiplier for used over mint is so high.
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