Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

Display of Jaipurs on the previous page made me go rummaging through my stock and came out SG3, 3a, 3b, Sg4, 4a, SG5 in that order if I am right.Not the best of copies :( but passable :)

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

And to round out the picture, SG 5a

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

though it seems difficult but Tony could you please put nos. on these?


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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

I'd be very, very suspicious of the bottom three. I'm 99.9% certain they're all fakes. I've seen these manuscript 'cancellations' on other fakes. The pinkish paper of the second was never used in J&K. And finally, neither the 4 nor the 8 Anna of Kashmir was ever printed in grey/black!

I'm also not very confident of the first stamp. It doesn't look right to me. I suspect a reprint at best.

The other two look like SG 90s.

So total value around $US10 on a good day.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by Micky »

Hi guys, found this for a $1, something a little different I think it's a folded letter and has this big ugly cancel or is it something else? I will have to show the letter when it arrives.

Image

Thanks for looking
Micky

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by jadrake »

Nice early Jaipur guys. Especially that 5a (just a litte chattering along the left). Funny how we accept this type of flaw with states isn't it? I personally don't have any of these mint yet (and I don't remember acquiring any used in earlier days). I suspect along with early Soruth this will be a challenge to uncover. Alas my meager Jaipur is made up of a few chairots and pretty complete sets of the Maharaja portraits/silver jubilee.

Can someone do me a favor and measure these for me (from outside perf to perf?) Also gibbons seems to show the SG2 as bigger - do we know how much bigger? Sometime hopefully soon I'll be whipping up my albums pages....

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by indianchariots »

tonymacg wrote:And to round out the picture, SG 5a

Image
Hi Tony & Mukul

Here is my set of Jaipur 1904 Litho prints. And just like anybody else, I too have some yet to be identified pieces. Below are images which will give you a fair idea about my ambiguity.

Image

This image is a birds eye view of 1904 Litho varieties. Now as you can see, I have identified them from SG3 onwards, with confirm identifications of SG3, SG3a & SG3b. But the actual problem starts now. The first two unidentified (?) stamps in this image are much different in colour and design from the three identified SG3's.

Now they are certainly not SG1's as the inscription on side, HALFANNA is not in running/one word. That leaves us with SG2 GREY BLUE & SG2B ULTRAMARINE. Now what forces me to think they are SG2's :D are the facts that:-

* Colour of both the stamps is very different from the identified SG3's.
* HALF ANNA side inscription has a gap b/w the two words.
* and most importantly, OR may I feel so, the distance of the two words from end to end measures 15.5mm or lesser in both the cases, with the second stamp having the last letter of the word half annA clearly below the box line.

I know my assumption most likely could be wrong. But the facts seem to be pointing in a different direction :D . Need your help guys. Images below are in exact order as shown in the first birds eye view image.

Image
Unidentified (?) number one

Image
Unidentified (?) number two

Image
SG3

Image
SG3a

Image
SG3b

Image
Unidentified number two stamp (suspect SG2b Ultramarine) & SG3b (identified SG3b Ultramarine)
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Distinguishing the three types is quite difficult until you have examples of each to compare. Shades are not much help, but I believe your two unidentified stamps are both SG 3s.

Here is an SG 2a alongside an SG 3a:

Image

You'll see that the central vignette is much taller and more oblong in the Type 1a, while it's more square in the Type 2. The inscription 'HALF ANNA' is always shirter than the vignette in Types 1 an 1a.

Allocating to the shades is a much more difficult business. As far as I can see, the shades in Gibbons should be treated more as families of shades than as precise descriptions. I don't know if this is a result of ageing, or (just as likely) there always was considerable variation.

In any case, I find the same problem as you do: at the extremes, the shades are easy to identify, but there are numbers of stamps that fall somewhere between the Gibbons descriptions. These seem to be the three extremes of the shades:

Image

but there are plenty of examples that fall somewhere in between. For example, I tentatively classify these

Image

as SG 3s, but they aren't really 'pale'.

And as an aside, I seem to have only used copies of the deep blue shade, SG 3a. I even have them on a couple of covers, but no mint examples I'd confidently assign to the deep blues.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

jadrake wrote:Nice early Jaipur guys. Especially that 5a (just a litte chattering along the left). Funny how we accept this type of flaw with states isn't it? I personally don't have any of these mint yet (and I don't remember acquiring any used in earlier days). I suspect along with early Soruth this will be a challenge to uncover. Alas my meager Jaipur is made up of a few chairots and pretty complete sets of the Maharaja portraits/silver jubilee.

Can someone do me a favor and measure these for me (from outside perf to perf?) Also gibbons seems to show the SG2 as bigger - do we know how much bigger? Sometime hopefully soon I'll be whipping up my albums pages....

-Jason
OK: I measured my examples, and here are the rough sizes (horizontal x vertical):
SG 1: 26.5mm x 29.5mm
SG 2: 27.5mm x 32mm
SG 3: 25.5mm x 27.5mm
SG 4: 25.5mm x 29mm
SG 5: 26.5mm x 28.5mm

Of course, the sizes of the imperfs can be a bit variable.

And while I can't do it for the emerald shade, SG 5a, how about this, then, for SG 5?

Image
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by jadrake »

Thank you Tony for the sizes! If anyone wants the PDFs for Hyderabad, Jind, Indore, Dhar I'd gladly share them. However they are meant to be printed on lighthouse paper (which doesn't fit in conventional printers) so be warned. Send me an email if interested.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by birder »

Micky wrote:Hi guys, found this for a $1, something a little different I think it's a folded letter and has this big ugly cancel or is it something else? I will have to show the letter when it arrives.

Image

Thanks for looking
Micky
Micky,

This document is probably a roznamcha (daily report) sent by Tahsildar Ramgarh to King Sawai Madho Singh of Jaipur. The image you have posted is upside down.

Image

The first line is illegible (probably "Shri Ramji" or other religious salutation).
The second line is "Shri Maharajadhiraj" -- loosely translated as "Honourable King of Kings"
The third line is "Shri Sawai Madhav Singh ji" --name of the Jaipur Ruler
and the last line is "Tahsildar Ramgarh".

Ramgarh-- name of a revenue subdivision in the state of Jaipur.
Tahsildar -- revenue official.

You can find a discussion on similar documents here :

https://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=31705

Hope this helps.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

tonymacg wrote:I'd be very, very suspicious of the bottom three. I'm 99.9% certain they're all fakes. I've seen these manuscript 'cancellations' on other fakes. The pinkish paper of the second was never used in J&K. And finally, neither the 4 nor the 8 Anna of Kashmir was ever printed in grey/black!

I'm also not very confident of the first stamp. It doesn't look right to me. I suspect a reprint at best.

The other two look like SG 90s.

So total value around $US10 on a good day.
Thanks Tony, I actually thought so. Now 2 more difficult lots. Difficult because of the flowing inks. At least 2-3 fakes here I presume. First one is SG 90 no doubt.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Well, I see three fakes at least, and a reprint :D

Row 1: SG 90, of course; either SG 94 or 96 - I lean a little to 96; reprint
Row 2: First two are SG 91s; third looks a bit like an SG 91, but also looks quite odd - perhaps a dry print, or perhaps a fake; last stamp is a fake
Row 3: A dreadful fake
Row 4: These look like SG 60s, though the second could be an oil colour ½ Anna
Row 5: Another dreadful fake
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

And thanks, once again, to Birder to coming to the rescue with that roznamcha. I was racking my brain trying to remember the word, so I could search out the discussions on them, but old age and a misspent youth are taking their toll on the little grey cells :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

tonymacg wrote:Well, I see three fakes at least, and a reprint :D

Row 1: SG 90, of course; either SG 94 or 96 - I lean a little to 96; reprint
Row 2: First two are SG 91s; third looks a bit like an SG 91, but also looks quite odd - perhaps a dry print, or perhaps a fake; last stamp is a fake
Row 3: A dreadful fake
Row 4: These look like SG 60s, though the second could be an oil colour ½ Anna
Row 5: Another dreadful fake
The third blue seems to be the Bright Blue that Sefi and Mortimer mention in their section on Kashmir Old Rectangulars. To quote

"The Third Issue, 1867-78, includes the ½a ultramarines, violet-blue, and bright blue, including the June 1867 possible error of the 1a in pale ultramarine and deep ultramarine. The violet-blue: This catalogue-shade is appreciable though not particularly important; but as it belongs to a well-defined early-intermediate period (1870-71) we retain it here. The bright blue of 1876. This shade is new to our lists and, though not always easy to determine, is of much greater interest than the violet-blue. It appeared in a printing of 1876, and the colour seems to be the same as that supplied to Jammu for the special printings of that year, made from the Jammu plate. Some of these Kashmir stamps seem to have been actually issued to Jammu......"
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

That third ½ Anna could very well be the Bright Blue of Séfi & Mortimer. I was more concerned by the look of the stamp, but going back to it again, I'm pretty sure it's OK.

There was an outstanding article, with colour scans, on the J&K Blues in India Post. It's on the archive disk. It might give you some more pointers to where your stamp fits.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by indianchariots »

[quote="tonymacg"]Distinguishing the three types is quite difficult until you have examples of each to compare. Shades are not much help, but I believe your two unidentified stamps are both SG 3s.

Very nice analysis indeed, Tony. Thanks for that. Even I do believe now that the unidentified stamps are SG3's. In fact, Gibbons can only be treated as a guideline rather in such cases, as there are many shades which are not really catalogued by SG.

From other sources also I got to learn that there are about 5 shades in SG3 alone. If you have a closer look at the sheets of the SG3 family, you will see that all 24 stamps are kind of unique. Although the difference is quite easy to skip but it does exist. In fact after spending some time with the image I could even identify the position of my stamps in the sheet.

If Im not wrong, these 1904 Litho Issues which have been listed as being printed by the Durbar Press Jaipur, was just a different name for the State Jail Press.

The shear amount of variety that these 1904 stamps have, a person might spend rest of his life collecting them and still have a few short here n there. :lol:
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

You've touched on a real problem for collectors of the Indian States. Gibbons is good, as far as it goes. But there's a great deal more that Gibbons can't or won't touch - just see Ikanek's posts about his discoveries of wrong font letters in the Travancore-Cochin overprints. I personally think Gibbons should have listed Ikanek's varieties, but Gibbons in the end has to draw the line somewhere.

And that's where, as specialists, we can take over. As you say, it's possible to plate the Jaipur lithos - though finding sheets of Types 1 and 1a could be a challenge :D It's also possible to distinguish more shades among the SG 3s. Now how about trying to reconstruct the stone of 24 stamps for each of the recognisable shades of SG 3 as a challenge?

Then there are the cancellations. I have a file note (no source mentioned, unfortunately) that CDSs like this

Image

were only used from the 18 April to the 8 October 1904. And then there are the mixed frankings

Image

and don't let's start on the shades of the 1 Anna :lol:

The Durbar Press: As I understand it, the Durbar Press was in the Jaipur Jail. I believe a bit of pressure was put onto Gibbons to change the name to something less embarrassing. However, if Kishangarh could print its stamps in the Diamond Soap Works,

Image

I don't see why the Jaipur Jail should be taboo.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by indianchariots »

tonymacg wrote:You've touched on a real problem for collectors of the Indian States. Gibbons is good, as far as it goes. But there's a great deal more that Gibbons can't or won't touch - just see Ikanek's posts about his discoveries of wrong font letters in the Travancore-Cochin overprints. I personally think Gibbons should have listed Ikanek's varieties, but Gibbons in the end has to draw the line somewhere.

And that's where, as specialists, we can take over. As you say, it's possible to plate the Jaipur lithos - though finding sheets of Types 1 and 1a could be a challenge :D It's also possible to distinguish more shades among the SG 3s. Now how about trying to reconstruct the stone of 24 stamps for each of the recognisable shades of SG 3 as a challenge?

Then there are the cancellations. I have a file note (no source mentioned, unfortunately) that CDSs like this

Image

were only used from the 18 April to the 8 October 1904. And then there are the mixed frankings

Image

and don't let's start on the shades of the 1 Anna :lol:

The Durbar Press: As I understand it, the Durbar Press was in the Jaipur Jail. I believe a bit of pressure was put onto Gibbons to change the name to something less embarrassing. However, if Kishangarh could print its stamps in the Diamond Soap Works,

Image

I don't see why the Jaipur Jail should be taboo.
You are so right tony. Gibbons is good only to a limit for cases like us. I guess they should come out with a dedicated issue for the larger princely states and with a more extensive coverage. Perhaps the one that includes postal stationary as well. But then how much commercial sense will that make to Gibbons, that is doubtful of course. After all they are here for business.

Coming to the strange CDS. I too happen to have an interesting example. Postcard per say in not in a great condition though...

Image

But strangely my postcard has been cancelled on 22 Feb 1910.

Will be interesting to see the excerpt of the file note that you have on such cancellations. Or may be Birder could decode this for us....
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Unfortunately, that's literally all I have of the note. There are extensive articles on the Jaipur cancellations in India Post, but it's a bit late at night (for me) to dig them out.

That's a nice combination of an old seal and a Bearing cachet. It looks as if some Old School type has attempted to frank his official mail with his seal, which has been rejected. It's a bit hard to read yours, but this one looks similar

Image

Image

though used on a British Indian postal stationery cover, and well before Jaipur stamps were issued. Also a nice Bearing mark. I have a similar type, with the space for the value to be filled in:

Image

though the preprinted 1 Anna Bearing marks are more common:

Image

- only to be expected, I suppose :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by indianchariots »

tonymacg wrote:Unfortunately, that's literally all I have of the note. There are extensive articles on the Jaipur cancellations in India Post, but it's a bit late at night (for me) to dig them out.

That's a nice combination of an old seal and a Bearing cachet. It looks as if some Old School type has attempted to frank his official mail with his seal, which has been rejected. It's a bit hard to read yours, but this one looks similar

Image
Nice cover I must say. Cancellation has come out very clear. First & last few letter are kind of easy to read.They are Shree Ramji Mahar......Sawai Jeypore Tougher is the centre part :roll: . Will need Birders help here.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by indianchariots »

Does anybody have an idea about the Qty Printed for the Investiture of Maharaja stamps 1931. This set of 12 are like the most iconic stamps of Jaipur. But surprisingly I have never ever come across any of these stamps on commercially used covers :roll: , except SG40 & SG41 of course, which are like kilowares.

Investiture of Sawai Man Singh II as the Maharaja of Jaipur, which is seen like a turning point in Jaipur's history should have been a reason sufficient for people to use them much more than Chariot stamps. Of course Maharaja Portrait Stamps were issued latter. But as is quite evident, both Chariot stamps & Maharaja portrait stamps have been used in abundance, but Investiture stamps seem like never distributed to the masses. Or may be they were not available for sale too long in the post office's then.

Will be glad if some one could throw some light on this. Members of ISC could have a good idea I guess.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

The Investiture set was a very fine production, but I think fairly obviously targeted at collectors. I wouldn't mind owning one, but it isn't high on my priority list.

The only commercial use I have of any of the other values is this one, of the 3 Anna:

Image

I couldn't find any numbers issued for the set on a quick skim through the India Post archive, I'm afraid.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by indianchariots »

tonymacg wrote:The Investiture set was a very fine production, but I think fairly obviously targeted at collectors. I wouldn't mind owning one, but it isn't high on my priority list.

The only commercial use I have of any of the other values is this one, of the 3 Anna:

Image

I couldn't find any numbers issued for the set on a quick skim through the India Post archive, I'm afraid.
My used chariots are still driven by horses. Feels good to see that at least someone has bullocks pulling his carts... :lol:
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Ah, but such horses! :D

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by indianchariots »

Tony could you please put a number on this...

Image
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by serenity »

Image
This is an engraved India beauty in my opinion. Are there not many engraved India stamp available?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by ikanek »

indianchariots wrote:Tony could you please put a number on this...

Image
This is surely one of the typographed printings. It depends on the perf. to which issue this belongs. This stamp appears for me as a scarlet shade (surely no carmine), so it may be either SG 28 if perforated 11 or SG 36 if perforated 12.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by ikanek »

serenity wrote:Image
This is an engraved India beauty in my opinion. Are there not many engraved India stamp available?
Most issues of British India were not engraved, but printed by typography. However, I agree that the design is very well produced. These stamps are readily available.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by serenity »

Image
What about the India stamps that have "India Security Press" written on the bottom, are they easy to come by also?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by ikanek »

serenity wrote:Image
What about the India stamps that have "India Security Press" written on the bottom, are they easy to come by also?
These were issued in 1950´s and 1960´s and they are also very common.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

ikanek wrote:
indianchariots wrote:Tony could you please put a number on this...

Image
This is surely one of the typographed printings. It depends on the perf. to which issue this belongs. This stamp appears for me as a scarlet shade (surely no carmine), so it may be either SG 28 if perforated 11 or SG 36 if perforated 12.
I'll just add that examples that show parts of the sheet watermark, either DORLING or OVERLAND BANK, are rather scarce, and deserve a premium. The old Harry Burgess INS Catalogue from the 1950s priced SG 28 with watermark at 7½ times the value of the stamps without watermark. It doesn't give prices for SG 36.

The letters are quite large, so the most you'll find on one stamp is parts of the watermarks. Here is an SG 22 (the ¼ Anna pale olive-yellow) with the 'Co' from the Dorling watermark:

Image
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

serenity wrote:Image
This is an engraved India beauty in my opinion. Are there not many engraved India stamp available?
Serenity, a number of the Indian States did indeed produce engraved stamps, and some beauties, too :D

As we've just been discussing the Chariot designs of Jaipur (showing the Sun God, Surya, in his chariot), here is the 1 Rupee value from the engraved set produced by Perkins, Bacon (who printed the Penny Black) for Jaipur in 1905:

Image

Jaipur also produced a long engraved set in 1947, to commemorate the Jubilee of the Maharaja. These were printed by De La Rue, in the UK. Here is the 8 Anna stamp from the set, again with the Chariot:

Image

Bahawalpur, Cochin, Hyderabad and Kishengarh all produced beautifully engraved stamps. The set from Bahawalpur commemorating the UPU in 1949, is quite cheap and readily available

Image

although a bit cheeky: Bahawalpur wasn't actually a member of the UPU.

And one more beautifully engraved series, that most collectors of the Engraved Beauties tend to overlook, is the famous Circulars of Jammu and Kashmir, from the 1860s and 1870s:

Image

They were engraved on brass by a Kashmiri seal cutter. They may not be to everyone's taste, but I love 'em.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by indianchariots »

ikanek wrote:
indianchariots wrote:Tony could you please put a number on this...

Image
This is surely one of the typographed printings. It depends on the perf. to which issue this belongs. This stamp appears for me as a scarlet shade (surely no carmine), so it may be either SG 28 if perforated 11 or SG 36 if perforated 12.
Thanks ikanek. Unfortnately I dont have a Perforation gage with me. That was the reason I put it here for an idea.

Yes you are indeed right. It cant be caramine for sure. And looks more like a scarlet. Now what seems different is the paper used and the sharp perforations. I have SG 26, 27 & 28 with me, and their perforation is kind of ratty/uneven or lets say irregular.

What Im trying to know is is it possible to distinguish b/w 1912 & 1928 Issues without using a perforation gage. Say for example if you were to buy it online and have no way of checking the perforation.

Can the paper used for the stamp or the type of perforation be a clue in deciding ?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by indianchariots »

tonymacg wrote:
ikanek wrote:
indianchariots wrote:Tony could you please put a number on this...

Image
This is surely one of the typographed printings. It depends on the perf. to which issue this belongs. This stamp appears for me as a scarlet shade (surely no carmine), so it may be either SG 28 if perforated 11 or SG 36 if perforated 12.
I'll just add that examples that show parts of the sheet watermark, either DORLING or OVERLAND BANK, are rather scarce, and deserve a premium. The old Harry Burgess INS Catalogue from the 1950s priced SG 28 with watermark at 7½ times the value of the stamps without watermark. It doesn't give prices for SG 36.

The letters are quite large, so the most you'll find on one stamp is parts of the watermarks. Here is an SG 22 (the ¼ Anna pale olive-yellow) with the 'Co' from the Dorling watermark:

Image
Thats a cool example tony. Have only heard & read about these watermarks. But its a delight to see it actually.

Now since we are discussing about 1928 issue. Could you please elaborate on the compound perforation. Identification features more importantly.

And will be glad if you could scan a perforation gage and tell us how it can be used. Planning to buy one. Will appreciate your suggestions... :)
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Perforations: Your really do need a perforation gauge. It's a vital part of a collector's equipment. There are basically four ways to approach the matter:
1. Until you have a perf gauge, you can simply count the number of holes per 20 mm. This will give you the gauge.
2. You can buy a cheap cardboard perf gauge - they're often given away free even. This is just barely OK, but it won't allow you to check stamps on cover or stuck down on pages, and it will only give you ¼ or ½ divisions.
3. My preferred option is the Gibbons Instanta gauge:

Image

There are similar plastic types from other makers.
4. You can buy one of the very expensive electronic devices. These seem to be very picky - they don't like those fluffy perfs you often see on Jaipur Chariots - and they're cumbersome to use. A waste of good money, I think.

Of course, you know why you need one. It will quickly tell you if you have, for example, an SG 29 (£5.50 used)

Image

or an SG 37 (£70 used)

Image

There are only two surefire ways of distinguishing between SG 23-29 and SG 34-37. One is to find part of the OVERLAND BANK watermark, and the other is to measure the perforations. This is because the ½, 1 and 2 Annas on DORLING watermarked paper were also perforated 12.

Of course, if you're lucky enough to find a 1 Rupee, it must be perf 12. I only have it with the SERVICE overprint:

Image

And if you're using an older catalogue, you can forget about the perf 12 8 Anna. Gibbons have de-listed it. Apparently it only exists with the SERVICE overprint:

Image

One more point, while we're talking about the typographed Chariots. Look out for the ¼ Anna in the distinctive lemon shade

Image

It isn't listed in Gibbons, but it's relatively scarce.

Distinguishing between the 1904 and 1905-9 printings and the local printings is very easy. Just place examples of the same value side by side

Image

and the differences are obvious. The London printings were by recess: they give the fine, raised printing effect. The Jaipur printings were by typography/letterpress: they give flat printings, with less fine detail.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

As it happens, I received this cover with seven copies of SG 10 today:

Image

Image

Now, if you compare the appearance of the stamps on the SG 10 cover with these on a similar cover with SG 25b

Image

Image

the difference between the recess and typography printings should be obvious. Here they are again, together:

Image
Image

Do you see how the SG 10s are much finer than the SG 25bs?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by indianchariots »

tonymacg wrote:Perforations: Your really do need a perforation gauge. It's a vital part of a collector's equipment. There are basically four ways to approach the matter:
1. Until you have a perf gauge, you can simply count the number of holes per 20 mm. This will give you the gauge.
2. You can buy a cheap cardboard perf gauge - they're often given away free even. This is just barely OK, but it won't allow you to check stamps on cover or stuck down on pages, and it will only give you ¼ or ½ divisions.
3. My preferred option is the Gibbons Instanta gauge:

Image

There are similar plastic types from other makers.
4. You can buy one of the very expensive electronic devices. These seem to be very picky - they don't like those fluffy perfs you often see on Jaipur Chariots - and they're cumbersome to use. A waste of good money, I think.

Of course, you know why you need one. It will quickly tell you if you have, for example, an SG 29 (£5.50 used)

Image

or an SG 37 (£70 used)

Image

There are only two surefire ways of distinguishing between SG 23-29 and SG 34-37. One is to find part of the OVERLAND BANK watermark, and the other is to measure the perforations. This is because the ½, 1 and 2 Annas on DORLING watermarked paper were also perforated 12.

Of course, if you're lucky enough to find a 1 Rupee, it must be perf 12. I only have it with the SERVICE overprint:

Image

And if you're using an older catalogue, you can forget about the perf 12 8 Anna. Gibbons have de-listed it. Apparently it only exists with the SERVICE overprint:

Image

One more point, while we're talking about the typographed Chariots. Look out for the ¼ Anna in the distinctive lemon shade

Image

It isn't listed in Gibbons, but it's relatively scarce.

Distinguishing between the 1904 and 1905-9 printings and the local printings is very easy. Just place examples of the same value side by side

Image

and the differences are obvious. The London printings were by recess: they give the fine, raised printing effect. The Jaipur printings were by typography/letterpress: they give flat printings, with less fine detail.
Thats a very nice compilation tony. Will try to get one Instanta guage from Gibbons.

Like your 1/4 anna Lemon shade. Have'nt seen that before. Many thanks for your suggestions.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by indianchariots »

tonymacg wrote:As it happens, I received this cover with seven copies of SG 10 today:

Image

Image

Now, if you compare the appearance of the stamps on the SG 10 cover with these on a similar cover with SG 25b

Image

Image

the difference between the recess and typography printings should be obvious. Here they are again, together:

Image
Image

Do you see how the SG 10s are much finer than the SG 25bs?
Goodness. There is striking similarity b/w the 2 covers. Almost as if they were tailor made for you. :lol:

Very nice indeed. Although not very rare stamp to find on cover but the sheer similarity b/w the two covers makes them an interesting display.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by ikanek »

indianchariots wrote: What I´m trying to know if it is possible to distinguish b/w 1912 & 1928 Issues without using a perforation gauge. Say for example if you were to buy it online and have no way of checking the perforation.
For this type, the only way is to count the perforations - preferably on the longest way (or both ways - horizontal and vertical) - for the design part only. It is apparent that by line perforation it is the only possibility to "guess" the perforation size.

To be more precise, I will include one example. Let´s take a square stamp with design size of 20 mm. If it is perforated 10, then it should have 10 full perforation for the design part. For perf. 11, it will be 11. So 1 full perforation differences which should be reasonably reliable.

For checking combinations such as compound perf., it is also possible to put the scan of stamp in question into some graphic processor (PhotoShop), cut one perf. row and try to put it on other side (rotation tool is necessary to use). I often used this to confirm only on the scan if this item has or has not compound perf. This works really very good provided there is no significant distortion of the scan (such by photos taken from rolled stamp).

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

SG 23a I believe :roll:

Image
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Image

Actually, these imperf between pairs of Jaipur seem to be very tightly held. They don't come up for sale very often, despite their (relatively) humble prices in Gibbons. Barwani SG 1 (£180) comes up far more often than Jaipur SG 23a (£200), for instance.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

tonymacg wrote:Image

Actually, these imperf between pairs of Jaipur seem to be very tightly held. They don't come up for sale very often, despite their (relatively) humble prices in Gibbons. Barwani SG 1 (£180) comes up far more often than Jaipur SG 23a (£200), for instance.
I had bought it in a large lot and quite cheaply if I remember. It also contains some other beauties like SG68 used SG60 used. Moreover the beauty of the lot lies in its completeness.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

A very lucky buy, then!
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by indianchariots »

mukulgarga wrote:SG 23a I believe :roll:

Image
Impressive indeed mukul. Not many to be seen around. However Cat value per say, it is not affordable for many of us. 200 GBPs for it looks like over d roof.. But as you said u got it at a decent price and that too with SG68 Used, thats a cool deal. As used SG68 is again a rare piece in itself.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Catalogue pricing is always a difficult thing for the more exotic areas of collecting like the Uglies. Just how often do imperf between pairs of these ¼ Annas, or the rest of the set for that matter, come up for sale? I had a look through my records, and an example of the 'a' numbers of the ¼ Annas seems to sell at auction every couple of years. I couldn't find any record of the 1 or 4 Anna perforation errors selling at auction. (My records may be incomplete. I'm not the most diligent at transferring prices to my computer records :D )

And that's for the more popular States. Copies of Morvi SG 4c (printed on the gummed side)

Image

have sold three times in the last 15 years or so - and two of those sales were of this stamp. How do you arrive at a fair catalogue value for it?

Ikanek has shown some really nice wrong font errors in the surcharges in Travancore-Cochin. Gibbons say they won't list them, though. How on earth do we arrive at a fair value for them?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

And just in case it will help any readers here, I've written a short thread on distinguishing genuine from other Jammu & Kashmir Circulars, and on the inks and papers, in the Wiki Forum, here: http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=39738

As always, corrections and contributions warmly welcomed (through gritted teeth :lol: )
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by maptrekker »

Excellent article on the Jammu & Kashmir circulars. The high quality images of the stamps and the papers make all the difference.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Thanks, Maptrekker - I do appreciate it.

I think I should add a postscript on the so-called 'non-postals'. I'll try to get around to it soon.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Just arrived today from Gibbons:

Image

This is similar to Duttia SG 25d (1911 ¼ Anna carmine, perf 13½, stamps printed closer together, imperf between), but not yet listed in this form, imperf vertically. Gibbons say it will be listed in the 2013 Part 1.

It was a lucky find; Duttia is one of the most popular States. I must have spotted it very soon after it was listed :D
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