Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by serenity »

I had been to several web sites before I finally found Stampboards. I was trying to find any information I could possibly get about my very BEAUTIFUL uglies. There were countless times I would ask about them and get rude short answers like "I don't do your homework" or that I was asking the wrong specialist and that I would have to try another specialist in a different area. Talk about banging my head against a wall. Stampboards was the only place that I found ~any~ real information to compare mine with. Also they where able to give a visual of what so many others were scared to even discuss. NO one had any information to offer. Here it is given freely. Ask and you Receive.
knowledge is power and I am so thankful for Stanley Gibbons, his team, and all the Extremely Wonderful People I have met from different organizations, different countries, with the same passion for education and enjoyment of stamp! Oh yeah I LOVE the Stamboard Very Happy Button! :D :D :D Totally freakin Rocks! 8) 8) 8)

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by indianchariots »

tonymacg wrote:Just arrived today from Gibbons:

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This is similar to Duttia SG 25d (1911 ¼ Anna carmine, perf 13½, stamps printed closer together, imperf between), but not yet listed in this form, imperf vertically. Gibbons say it will be listed in the 2013 Part 1.

It was a lucky find; Duttia is one of the most popular States. I must have spotted it very soon after it was listed :D
Very impressive indeed tony :shock: . My eyes were like wide open.. Rarity is evident from the fact that Gibbons is yet to list it. You could bask in its glory till then...
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by indianchariots »

serenity wrote:I had been to several web sites before I finally found Stampboards. I was trying to find any information I could possibly get about my very BEAUTIFUL uglies. There were countless times I would ask about them and get rude short answers like "I don't do your homework" or that I was asking the wrong specialist and that I would have to try another specialist in a different area. Talk about banging my head against a wall. Stampboards was the only place that I found ~any~ real information to compare mine with. Also they where able to give a visual of what so many others were scared to even discuss. NO one had any information to offer. Here it is given freely. Ask and you Receive.
knowledge is power and I am so thankful for Stanley Gibbons, his team, and all the Extremely Wonderful People I have met from different organizations, different countries, with the same passion for education and enjoyment of stamp! Oh yeah I LOVE the Stamboard Very Happy Button! :D :D :D Totally freakin Rocks! 8) 8) 8)

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You said it so right serenity. This is one place where you will find Philatelist from all walks of life. Right from novices like me to some very expert seniors who have seen this hobby grow in front of their eyes. And the best part is, there are so many people ready to help, to share their experiences and to comment on your collections, that you could pop-up any thing under the sun & still expect an answer for it :lol: . And all that for free. Ideally as knowledge should be.

Cheers for Stampboards... It rocks big time... :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

Just received in post, over inked copy of Poonch SG1 :D :D

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Mukulgarga, I think I'd check that Poonch SG 1 very carefully on the Poonch Stamps Web site https://poonchstamps.com. I don't like the look of it, I'm afraid. Here is my copy:

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

And Serenity, the Uglies are hard - no doubt about it. We're all still learning, even about the stamps we specialise in. The great early specialist in those Jail Press stamps of yours was one J.R.M. Albrecht. He published a slim volume on Jaipur stamps in 1924 which we still refer to and use today for the early stamps. But he got those ¼ Anna stamps of yours wrong. (I won't bore you with exactly how he went off the rails, but he did.)

I don't have any time for someone who has knowledge but refuses to share it. But that's the great thing about Stampboards in general, and the people on this thread in particular. We're all willing to share.

So now you've dipped a toe in the water, why not plunge in properly? What, I ask you, can be more Ugly-Beautiful than Bhor Number 1?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by ikanek »

tonymacg wrote:Catalogue pricing is always a difficult thing for the more exotic areas of collecting like the Uglies. Just how often do imperf between pairs of these ¼ Annas, or the rest of the set for that matter, come up for sale? I had a look through my records, and an example of the 'a' numbers of the ¼ Annas seems to sell at auction every couple of years. I couldn't find any record of the 1 or 4 Anna perforation errors selling at auction. (My records may be incomplete. I'm not the most diligent at transferring prices to my computer records :D )

And that's for the more popular States. Copies of Morvi SG 4c (printed on the gummed side)

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have sold three times in the last 15 years or so - and two of those sales were of this stamp. How do you arrive at a fair catalogue value for it?

Ikanek has shown some really nice wrong font errors in the surcharges in Travancore-Cochin. Gibbons say they won't list them, though. How on earth do we arrive at a fair value for them?
Tony is absolutely right. In the case of hard-to-get pieces (meant in the sense - offered very rarely) forget on CV. I use my own criteria for their pricing.

It´s true that SG refused to list :twisted: the font errors I recently found on Travancore-Cochin (see: https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=39603). Therefore, I will not write them in future about new letter errors or other varieties (such as watermark C varieties). Maybe I will send them a want list with such not listed watermark varieties for a price of normal stamp.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by ikanek »

tonymacg wrote:And just in case it will help any readers here, I've written a short thread on distinguishing genuine from other Jammu & Kashmir Circulars, and on the inks and papers, in the Wiki Forum, here: http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=39738

As always, corrections and contributions warmly welcomed (through gritted teeth :lol: )
Tony, I must also thank you for the invaluable guide for those circular issues. In my country probably nobody is able to say if they are OK or not.

I remember last time at a local bourse that I saw incredible modern fakes for high sums. It was related to several Indian states, not only J&K. At the same stall I saw a badly cut-to-shape Indian 4a bi-colored lithographed stamp for more than 200 USD. In my mind I was tapping my forehead. :lol:

Therefore, I decided to write a longer series of articles for our national journal about Indian states. My first article covering Convention States was much appreciated by collectors. And now I am writing second part - the T&C discovery. And then, each state will be covered in reasonable depth.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by ikanek »

mukulgarga wrote:Just received in post, over inked copy of Poonch SG1 :D :D

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I am sorry, but also I don´t like the look of your stamp. The most suspicious is the paper which is too yellow for me.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

ikanek wrote: It´s true that SG refused to list :twisted: the font errors I recently found on Travancore-Cochin (see: http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=39603). Therefore, I will not write them in future about new letter errors or other varieties (such as watermark C varieties). Maybe I will send them a want list with such not listed watermark varieties for a price of normal stamp.
The answer to this sort of problem is probably to do a deep study of the State or issue, and publish it.

The best example of this is the Bundi Sacred Cows. Since Ray Benns compiled the first edition of the India Study Circle Handbook on these stamps, every serious collector and seller of the Sacred Cows really has to identify their stamps not just by SG Number, but also by the Benns Setting Number. In their online offerings of the Sacred Cows, Gibbons themselves show Benns Setting numbers.

You've stirred up interest in Travancore and Travancore-Cochin here (you even have me looking closely at them :lol: ). Is it time to formally launch a Travancore & Travancore-Cochin study group within the ISC, with the aim of ultimately publishing a handbook?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Talking of the Sacred Cows ...

This Bundi Cash Coupon just turned up from eBay:

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They were issued during the Second World War as a substitute for small coins, which were in short supply. Three pies was equivalent to around half a cent, so it was cheaper and better for the War Effort to use cardboard instead of metal :D

There were also 1 Anna Cash coupons - much more elaborate affairs

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These were all numbered on the backs. I only have the single 1 Anna Coupon, but my highest numbered 3 Pies Coupon is 15092.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by ikanek »

tonymacg wrote:
ikanek wrote: It´s true that SG refused to list :twisted: the font errors I recently found on Travancore-Cochin (see: http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=39603). Therefore, I will not write them in future about new letter errors or other varieties (such as watermark C varieties). Maybe I will send them a want list with such not listed watermark varieties for a price of normal stamp.
The answer to this sort of problem is probably to do a deep study of the State or issue, and publish it.

The best example of this is the Bundi Sacred Cows. Since Ray Benns compiled the first edition of the India Study Circle Handbook on these stamps, every serious collector and seller of the Sacred Cows really has to identify their stamps not just by SG Number, but also by the Benns Setting Number. In their online offerings of the Sacred Cows, Gibbons themselves show Benns Setting numbers.

You've stirred up interest in Travancore and Travancore-Cochin here (you even have me looking closely at them :lol: ). Is it time to formally launch a Travancore & Travancore-Cochin study group within the ISC, with the aim of ultimately publishing a handbook?
That´s a good idea, but I should be cloned to manage all. :lol:

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by ikanek »

tonymacg wrote:Talking of the Sacred Cows ...

This Bundi Cash Coupon just turned up from eBay:

Image

Image

They were issued during the Second World War as a substitute for small coins, which were in short supply. Three pies was equivalent to around half a cent, so it was cheaper and better for the War Effort to use cardboard instead of metal :D

There were also 1 Anna Cash coupons - much more elaborate affairs

Image

Image

These were all numbered on the backs. I only have the single 1 Anna Coupon, but my highest numbered 3 Pies Coupon is 15092.
I will only add that also 4 anna green is known, but it is of larger format and resembles much the Court Fee design.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

I don't have one. Do you? Can you show it?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by ikanek »

tonymacg wrote:I don't have one. Do you? Can you show it?
I don´t have it in my personal collection, but found it among my scans. So, here it is:

Image

I think it must be very scarce as only I have two scans of it.
The 4 anna value was not surprisingly used for Court Fee stamps. In this value, also Cash Coupon was transliterated into Devanagari.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Thanks, Ikanek. It's nice to have the full set displayed here for posterity :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by ikanek »

I remember that there was an article about them in India Post where also numbering was described. It seems that each value was not numbered consecutively but complete issue together as per current needs. Maybe, they overtook the system which several Indian states used for numbering their fiscals.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by ikanek »

Within an hour, I am going to our stamp fair where I hope I will add at least something for my collection. I will inform you if I get any Indian State material esp. those from Travancore and T&C.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Good hunting!
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

What's Going on?
On ebay at seller mareval2 auctions all the Bundi's went at almost 130% of the Catalog :shock: .
I am amused at the thought of my SG14a with BPA :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

There is a new ISC Bundi Handbook coming: the Bundi Study Group is working on it at the moment. That's part of the explanation. I suppose the other parts of the explanation are the general buoyancy of the Uglies and the UK seller phenomenon.

(On the latter, there may be a couple of factors at work. First, there are still more collectors of the Indian States in the UK than elsewhere; some of them at least may be searching only on UK eBay. Then, some buyers expect, rightly or wrongly, that stamps from UK sellers will have been held in the UK, and so will be free of tropicalisation. And then there's the assumption, right or wrong, that UK sellers are more trustworthy than Indian sellers. I can say I trust seller mareval. I've bought from him often, with never a problem.)

And a word of caution: the stamps that have really been flying are often the good entry-level singles. Higher-priced, specialist, items are less predictable. Sometimes they fly, sometimes they flop. I had to go way over full catalogue to buy these Barwani SG 34aBs

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but if another pair came onto the market, I wouldn't be bidding. Who knows what it might bring?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by jadrake »

I agree with Tony's comments about the dealers/sellers in the UK. I think 75% of my material comes from there (along with dribblings from Canada and Australia). Very little from the USA (less than 5%). I think the topic of tropicalization was more relevant years ago where there wasn't sites like ebay allowing for a more fluid exchange. Now, you never know what you are going to get. In general I have found Indian sellers to be less up front about flaws and paper toning (perhaps because they don't wish to expose it, or perhaps simply it is not as important to their general collecting buying base). Case in point - a few dealers in the twin cities do not feel the need to heavily discount for thinning. Why? Because someone will buy a thinned item at 70% of CV so why bother? I refuse to add them to my collection (despite this they still show up on occassion :cry: )

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by peterh »

ikanek wrote:
tonymacg wrote:I don't have one. Do you? Can you show it?
I don´t have it in my personal collection, but found it among my scans. So, here it is:

Image

I think it must be very scarce as only I have two scans of it.
The 4 anna value was not surprisingly used for Court Fee stamps. In this value, also Cash Coupon was transliterated into Devanagari.
Thanks for reviving this! This was my scan from this old thread:

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6609&p=297844

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

We need an index of all the discussions of Indian States matters here on Stampboards!
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by jadrake »

Sounds like another wiki!
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Any volunteers, then? :lol:
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

Is it SG1, the second stamp I see in the picture ?

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

I'm 99.9% certain it's an SG 3

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This is an SG 3a (last two letters of value on second line), but you get the idea :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by Micky »

Here is some I recently bought, I think they might be great to learn the basics about the Ugly world of Beautiful Uglies :D

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Micky Junior ugly :lol:

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Micky, as the Ugliest man on Stampboards, I can tell you you're about to have a crash lesson in Travancore watermarks (make sure you check out Ikanek's thread on these at https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20387), and in trying to make out the perforations of Hyderabad :lol: And buried in amongst it all, you have a Jind 1876 ½ Anna on bluish laid card paper - one of my very favourite stamps

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by Micky »

Tony I can see it is one of your favourites, you have the whole family tree there WOW :shock: 8) , I do indeed have a lot to learn but I am sure I will be asking a lot of questions in the future, please bare with me in my simpleness :)

Cheers Tony

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by jadrake »

I agree the Jind is a nifty stamp. So glad to see you have a bunch of Hyderabads! Some of my favorites. Does anyone know if there has been a detailed discussion on the official overprints and their "fakiness?" I know it was discussed recently with the O1 (or was it O3)? but I thought there was something like 75% of the overprints were fake (or is that just for the higher valued ones). While I have a pretty nice Hyderabad collection mint (well over 50% including all perf varieties) my officials are really weak and I have shied away from it of late

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Micky, I'll be delighted help where I can, but there are others here who know vastly more than I ever will about Hyderabad and Travancore. I have to confess that I've come very late to appreciate these two States.

And once you've mastered the watermarks of Travancore, you'll be able to help me :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

jadrake wrote:I agree the Jind is a nifty stamp. So glad to see you have a bunch of Hyderabads! Some of my favorites. Does anyone know if there has been a detailed discussion on the official overprints and their "fakiness?" I know it was discussed recently with the O1 (or was it O3)? but I thought there was something like 75% of the overprints were fake (or is that just for the higher valued ones). While I have a pretty nice Hyderabad collection mint (well over 50% including all perf varieties) my officials are really weak and I have shied away from it of late

-Jason
Jason, as I understand it, and my undertanding of Hyderabad is unremarkable at best, the Sarkari overprints you really have to worry about are the handstamped types, SG O1. There probably are forgeries of the later types, but you don't hear much of them. However, I'm still seething with outrage that the BPA refused an opinion on this pair:

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by jadrake »

what is so special about a pair of stamps with one having a pen cancel in black ink? :wink:


ok ok ..... it is an official overprint on one side "maybe".... I get it. Couldn't resist the temptation. Weren't these overprints machine applied though? I don't think they were handstamped... so that would imply a missing or non-inked cancel device no?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by indianchariots »

Hi tony.. Need your help in this.

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Does it look like SG 25 pale ultramarine or SG 34 ultramarine to you. As far I remember you have an example of SG 34 on cover. Was little confused. Your help will be valuable.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by mukulgarga »

Sorry to have but in outside my field (until now) but searching in my vast hoard of yet unsorted Cochin and Travancore I have unearthed this full sheet (sorry but my scanner does not support sizes beyond A4) :D

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

indianchariots wrote:Hi tony.. Need your help in this.

Image

Does it look like SG 25 pale ultramarine or SG 34 ultramarine to you. As far I remember you have an example of SG 34 on cover. Was little confused. Your help will be valuable.
There are only two sure tests that will distinguish between SG 25 and SG 34. If the cover is dated earlier than 1928, when the 12 gauge machine was introduced, the stamps must be SG 25. If the stamps are perf 11 on all sides then they must be SG 25; if they are perf 12 on all sides, then they're SG 34, and if they're perf a mixture of 11 and 12, they're SG 34a. You can't rely on the shade of the stamps, because it's too variable.

This is a block of SG 34a, with both perf 11 and 12:

Image
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by jadrake »

Here is an oddity I caught tonight looking at something for maptrekker..... (Tony - you are going to love it ... your favorite country!)

Image

This is clearly the roulette 2a..... SG 10.... only why does the bottom have what appear to be almost perforations? Perforated 13.5 to be exact. In the image they do look like roulette marks - on the stamp you'd swear they are perfs. Perhaps some sort of double run from the perforating machine (after 7x2 is 14 right?)
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Very curious.

The bottoms of the perforations look quite square, like the bottoms of the roulettes. I suppose the effect could be achieved if the rouletting device was positioned fairly precisely half-way between the previous roulettes.

AFAIK, the Batliboi Litho Works/Lakshmi Art Printers didn't have a 13½ gauge perforator. At least, they didn't use it for the Charkhari or Orchha postal issues: I don't know if they printed revenues for any of the States, and used such a device. Given the range of gauges to be seen in Charkhari and Orchha, it seems unlikely, though.

So, yes: it seems to be a double roulette. Not that that is going to improve my opinion of Bijawar :evil: (The Batliboi/Lakshmi efforts for Charkhari and Orchha did see postal use, even if it was limited. I've yet to see evidence of a serious postal service in Bijawar, though. I'll cheerfully recant and allow Bijawar into my collection if I do.)
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by maptrekker »

A double roulette wouldn't look like this. The first pass would have produced the long cuts between the tabs. A second pass exactly in line would probably just cut through the remaining tabs.

There just seems to be some problems with the roulette machines. Look at the cuts on the left side of the stamp and the stamp below. The blade is not not cutting through completely.

Image

This item was sold on eBay as 150885317793

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150885317793

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by birder »

maptrekker wrote:

Image
The left side of this image is interesting. there are smaller cuts on the top and bottom side while the mid portion appears OK,.

Maybe a "smaller" roulette blade was used two times. Whenever it "skipped" we would have a smaller "perf-like" situation.

Quite peculiar though.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

It took a while to find my remaining Bijawar, but they did include this:

Image

In the section at upper left, it does appear as if some second blades may have been shorter, so that they didn't always cut the paper. Perhaps a guillotine-type device, which produced the long roulettes when the device was not brought down fully on the paper.

Interestingly, another 3 Pies - but I don't have a 2 Anna rouletted, and the same effect doesn't appear on my other values.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by indianchariots »

Postman just knocked on my door this afternoon to deliver these... A guess what :!: I'm on cloud number 9 :D

Image
1904 Recess Perkins Bacon printed SG 6 & SG 7

But sadly Perforated 12 :( . Would have been on top of the world to see P12.5. One cant get everything in the world I guess :lol:


Image
1928 Issue SG 35 & SG 37, P12 on Jaipur Registered Postcard posted 22 June 1931 :D

Best part is the fact that the postcard is in a wonderful condition or let just say that I'm lucky today.

Cat rates for these stamps as per my SG 3rd Edition 2009 are:
SG 6 - 6.5 £ (mint)
SG 7 - 60 £ (mint)
SG 35 - 18 £ (used)
SG 37 - 30 £ (used)

Will be happy if someone could enlighten me about the current Cat rates. Let me just bask in their glory till then...
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by birder »

tonymacg wrote:
Not that that is going to improve my opinion of Bijawar :evil: (The Batliboi/Lakshmi efforts for Charkhari and Orchha did see postal use, even if it was limited. I've yet to see evidence of a serious postal service in Bijawar, though. I'll cheerfully recant and allow Bijawar into my collection if I do.)
Tony, Did you read the article about five Bijawar State post offices manned by school teachers and postal clerks. I will try to locate a copy.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

Indianchariots, I'm happy to give the still current 2012 prices. (Gibbons say the 2013 Part 1 will be released this month. I have my order in :D )

SG 6 £8
SG 7 £60
(SG 7a is £150)
SG 35 £19
SG 37 £32

Have you checked the perforations on all four sides of the 1 and 2 Anna? I don't see any obvious signs of compound perforations, but it does no harm to be sure.

These are very slow rises for the Indian States. I think the earlier Gibbons prices were a bit high, rather than that the stamps are unpopular.

(And I'm still waiting for my first SG 7a, too :( )
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by birder »

And this might change your opinion :

Image

Sorry for the poor image quality.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by tonymacg »

birder wrote: Tony, Did you read the article about five Bijawar State post offices manned by school teachers and postal clerks. I will try to locate a copy.
I don't remember seeing it, but I admit that my brain switches off when I see 'Bijawar'.

In theory, I suppose it might have had a genuine postal service. Bijawar was about the same size as Charkhari, in population, and Charkhari covers are relatively common. But where are all the Bijawar covers? And I don't consider that cover as evidence of a functioning postal system, Birder :wink:
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by birder »

tonymacg wrote:
AFAIK, the Batliboi Litho Works/Lakshmi Art Printers didn't have a 13½ gauge perforator.

The first Bijawar issue was printed by Beerindra Kumar and Co. of Saharanpur
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by birder »

tonymacg wrote:
birder wrote: Tony, Did you read the article about five Bijawar State post offices manned by school teachers and postal clerks. I will try to locate a copy.
I don't remember seeing it, but I admit that my brain switches off when I see 'Bijawar'.

In theory, I suppose it might have had a genuine postal service. Bijawar was about the same size as Charkhari, in population, and Charkhari covers are relatively common. But where are all the Bijawar covers? And I don't consider that cover as evidence of a functioning postal system, Birder :wink:

Tony, kindly download the short (but very very sweet) e-book from http://ebookbrowse.com/haverbeck-bijawar-pdf-d279509811

It is only 7 pages but packed with information.

And it has details of postal system, stamps, sheets, perforations, rouletting, CANCELS, the works....
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