GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by Global Administrator »

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W5LDY wrote:
29 Jan 2021 00:32
.
Global Administrator wrote:
29 Jan 2021 00:24
.
Am I right in suggesting you will happily offer a Canada stamp with an American Certificate etc? Or will not refuse to buy an Italian stamp with a British Certificate etc Or is there some secret handshake PTS Member rule preventing this, unknown to me anyway, as is alluded to above. :mrgreen:

Glen

I will happily offer any stamp from anywhere with any major credible certificate. If it gives the item some additional credibility, then the buyer can have extra confidence what they are getting is what it purports to be. :D

All still subject to my unconditional money back guarantee of course.
.

Exactly, and here I was thinking there had been odd new PTS Rules introduced, that no-one told me about. :lol: :lol: :lol:

The current generation of ''eBay only'' buyers from non Trade Body members, might be gobsmacked that buying stamps off PTS dealers like you, even via eBay, means they are GUARANTEED for years - not the 30 days etc eBay return window - IF the seller is still operating then of course.

Yesterday a UK member here had 1000 lots of forged stamps removed from one persistent conman - the army of Bunnies buying $100,000s off him in recent times will do their dough. Another very active account of his was deregistered last week - not a PTS member badge in sight -

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=82428&start=228
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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the plate 73/77 conundrum

Post by fchd »

Has there ever been a sensible explanation of how this one Plate 73 stamp, out of over 125million printed, bears plate numbers 77?

Plates 71 to 86 were put "to press" on the same day, 1/3/1864 and Perkins Bacon's quality control was such that plates 69, 70, 75 & 77 were all rejected. If plate 73 had originally had "77s" on it, surely that would have been kicked out too?
http://www.fchd.info/stamps2000/index.htm - Stamps issued during the year 2000, worldwide!

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by mozzerb »

Global Administrator wrote:
28 Jan 2021 19:10
mozzerb wrote:
28 Jan 2021 18:54
This again?
Agree.

Blame Richard - he is still howling to the moon about it. Elvis is still alive too possibly. This thread was dead and done for over a year until he started his sore loser Trump like complaints today. HIS call. :lol: :lol: :lol:
No, the "This again?" referred (quite obviously, I would have thought) to your statement about the certificate, namely this:
Global Administrator wrote:
28 Jan 2021 14:50
The PF Expert Committee ... wrote the correct one, but you still bleat THAT sane one was "incorrect"
You keep repeating that the PF certificate is correct, and it just plain isn't -- as worded it certifies the stamps as being from plate 77, the one thing absolutely nobody who has any idea what they're talking about thinks they are. Including the owner of the cover Abed Najjar, if you missed that.

As I reported way back, the PF "finaliser" chose not to include any reference to plate 73, thus producing a certificate that is worse than the original one could ever be. After all, a certificate that's simply wrong about whether an item is fake or not is one thing, a certificate that says an item is something different that it can't possibly be is quite another.
Global Administrator wrote:
28 Jan 2021 23:14
It DID get a Moron Grade RPSL one originally, stating "DA NUMABAAHS WAZ GLOOD ONN".

The RPSL tore that up in recent times, and agreed in writing the stamps are not faked as they initially stated, and in their own PTS Journal, admitted the cover bears 3 stamps with the Plate Numbers 77. Case closed.

...
Global Administrator wrote:
26 Feb 2019 01:55
Indeed the RPSL themselves now illustrates the cover this month, with a heading in bolded black letters above the cover saying -
"GB 1d red 1864 stamps on cover from Victor Hugo
showing a number 77."
So the RPSL now confirms the handwriting is from Victor Hugo, and that the Plate numbers shown are 77. CRYSTAL clear, even for those here possessing blinkered comprehension skills. :lol:

The RPSL furthermore confirms in writing they are fully retracting their earlier published FICTION, and arrant unsubstantiated and unverified in ANY way nonsense, that these stamps were fakes from plate 73.
...
Image
This again? This is another statement that you keep making, but a statement that anyone who has actually read what the RPSL published can see is clearly and unequivocally wrong (except of course to those "possessing blinkered comprehension skills").

To quote what the RPSL actually said (it's quite short):
In order to settle disagreement with the owner, Mr Abed Najjar, of the above stamps on cover, the words “We have no hesitation in confirming our 2006 opinion that all three stamps have “77” faked from stamps from Plate 73” are retracted from the article contained in the July/August 2015 edition of The London Philatelist and the later reference to “being bullied” by Mr Najjar contained in the Annual General Meeting report for RPSL Ltd contained in the July/August 2018 edition of The London Philatelist is withdrawn.

The parties agreed in November 2014 that Mr Najjar would withdraw his 2006 and 2014 submissions for certificates of opinion and consequently the certificates of opinion were returned and treated as void, that is not to have been issued, and the submission fees were refunded.
(The London Philatelist, Jan/Feb 2019, p25. Not "their own PTS Journal", whatever that is supposed to be.)

Just for the avoidance of doubt, this is not a statement that they consider the certificate was wrong -- if that had been their view, their standard practice (as with other expertising bodies) is to issue a new certificate saying the cover was genuine. It's (again quite obviously, I would have thought) a "let's just agree to disagree and draw a line under this before it gets into costly legal action" statement.

Also, please note that the words retracted from 2015 came at the end of a 12 page article headed "GB 1d Red 1864 ‘Plate Number’ Issue Faked Plate 77 Stamps" which laid out the RPSL's case for the stamps being faked based on open source information. Readers will note that the rest of this article was quite noticeably not withdrawn. A few key quotes:
As readers will appreciate, a full response by the Expert Committee involving a detailed reference to the Committee’s own observations and examinations would need a waiver of confidentiality from Mr Najjar. However, he has not been prepared to grant this waiver (Ref. 4). Accordingly, this article must perforce be limited to observations that can be gathered from publicly available information.
...
We conclude that there are clear forensic differences identified in the ink compounds around the area of the second ‘7’ on each stamp. The suggested explanation is not credible and it is clear that the areas have been manipulated.
...
Conclusions
...
The change in number can only be satisfactorily explained by tampering at some time after the stamps were printed.
Doesn't sound like they've changed their mind, does it?

It should also go without saying (but apparently it doesn't) that no-one has ever disputed that the handwriting is that of Victor Hugo, or that the stamps "show a number 77", so the RPSL stating this is hardly a "gotcha". If they didn't show a number 77, the cover would obviously never have been submitted in the first place! The point at dispute is how those 77s got there.
fchd wrote:
29 Jan 2021 05:47
Has there ever been a sensible explanation of how this one Plate 73 stamp (three actually), out of over 125million printed, bears plate numbers 77?
No.

This has been another edition of simple answers to simple questions.

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the plate 73/77 conundrum

Post by Global Administrator »

fchd wrote:
29 Jan 2021 05:47
Has there ever been a sensible explanation of how this one Plate 73 stamp, out of over 125 million printed, bears plate numbers 77?

A strong case is outlined here - using proof and logic, and real examples and images -

https://www.victorhugocover.com/plate-77

GB Victor Hugo 1d Red Plate 77 cover, with 3 clear Certificates.
GB Victor Hugo 1d Red Plate 77 cover, with 3 clear Certificates.
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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the plate 73/77 conundrum

Post by mozzerb »

Global Administrator wrote:
29 Jan 2021 11:38
fchd wrote:
29 Jan 2021 05:47
Has there ever been a sensible explanation of how this one Plate 73 stamp, out of over 125 million printed, bears plate numbers 77?

A strong case is outlined here - using proof and logic, and real examples and images -

https://www.victorhugocover.com/plate-77

Image
Cool, what explanation do they provide for how these plate 73 stamps came to bear the number 77 then? The certificates appear to me to just state a genuine-or-not opinion as certificates normally do, but obviously I'm not privy to the special extended version you've apparently seen.

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the plate 73/77 conundrum

Post by Global Administrator »

mozzerb wrote:
29 Jan 2021 19:16
The certificates appear to me to just state a genuine-or-not opinion as certificates normally do.

No kidding - your enormous philatelic wisdom amazes me at times. Not savvy enough to click on links sadly, but one day we will get you there. Maybe. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Buy yes, buying with recent Certs is what all savvy stamp buyers do.

Three (3) Certificates from highly respected Committees now exist saying it is totally GENUINE in all respects, without mention of any alterations, as you finally agree, and zero certificates exist saying otherwise. Game/Set/Match.

You and capetriangle can hold hands, and howl at the moon all you wish about how terrible that is in your negative and closed minds, along with Donald Trump, but that will not change the FACTS. :mrgreen:

There is hardly a stamp item on the planet with THREE (3) very recent Photo Certificate as Genuine.

Glen
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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by Allanswood »

Where are the cert's shown on the "revamped again" and much changed website?
https://www.victorhugocover.com/plate-77

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by Goodwin »


Mainly collecting GB, working back from QEII. Often side-tracked into Japan, GB-era Hong Kong definitives, Ceylon and Australia pre-decimal.

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the plate 73/77 conundrum

Post by mozzerb »

If you consider the arguments on that page to demonstrate proof and logic, I'm afraid our standards differ. Abed's trying really hard to come up with a plausible reason -- I see he's returned to the "they were specially created for philatelists" explanation, presumably because the "repair marker" explanation made absolutely no sense -- but that's very weak and doesn't make a lot of sense either, even on its own terms.

For example, why did these early collectors not also ask for stamps with numbers from the other "missing" plates of the era -- 69, 70 and 75? How could they have persuaded Perkins Bacon to make these back-and-forth changes in the first place, when they'd already had their fingers burned giving sample Empire stamps to Hill and would surely have lost their contract if anyone in officialdom had found out? And most obviously, how did these specially printed under-the-counter stamps for collectors end up being used on commercial mail by an exiled French author in the Channel Islands?

(Needless to say, the 2010 GBJ article that page claims "very clearly demonstrates that the plate numbers on the 1864 issue were collected as early as April 1865" does nothing of the sort. The covers shown simply suggest that someone in about 1880 had access to a large correspondence and picked out examples from each plate.)

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by satsuma »

Just thinking about the wording on the Philatelic Foundation certificate.

Is it less explicit than it could be about the stamps, or is standard tradespeak?
We have examined the enclosed item .... described by the applicant as follows ... 3 1p all plate 77 ...
We are of the opinion that it is a genuine usage


Does this actually imply that the stamps are genuine, or merely that the cover had a contemporary transit through the postal system?

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by mozzerb »

satsuma wrote:
30 Jan 2021 08:05
Just thinking about the wording on the Philatelic Foundation certificate.

Is it less explicit than it could be about the stamps, or is standard tradespeak?
We have examined the enclosed item .... described by the applicant as follows ... 3 1p all plate 77 ...
We are of the opinion that it is a genuine usage


Does this actually imply that the stamps are genuine, or merely that the cover had a contemporary transit through the postal system?

My recollection of what US collectors have said is that it's standard PF tradespeak and indicates that the whole thing is genuine. Said US collectors may care to comment on whether I recall correctly.

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by Global Administrator »

mozzerb wrote:
30 Jan 2021 08:15

My recollection of what US collectors have said is that it's standard PF tradespeak and indicates that the whole thing is genuine.

Correct, if the stamps or cover are forged, the Certificate would say just that.

i.e.

We are of the opinion that it is forged.

and NOT -

3 x 1p, all plate 77 on opened out cover to Belgium - we are of the opinion that it is a genuine usage

Glen
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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by Number-O-Ne »

mozzerb wrote:
30 Jan 2021 08:15
My recollection of what US collectors have said is that it's standard PF tradespeak and indicates that the whole thing is genuine. Said US collectors may care to comment on whether I recall correctly.

I'm a US collector, though not the "said US collector". I agree that the language means the whole thing is original.

The meaning of the word "usage" in the US philately, especially between exhibitors, varies widely. It is subject of continuous discussion.

Here it must mean "the whole blessed thing". :roll: :roll:
.

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by BrianBURU »

.
I posted images of a displacement map model on the 1856 1c British Guiana thread yesterday, and thought that I should do so likewise here in order to add my “two cents” worth. There is a brief explanation of the process there, so I will not repeat it.

For what it’s worth, the stamp looks 100% original and tamper-proof to me. The ink and the engraving are both level, with no apparent evidence of disturbance, but the usual disclaimer applies of course. Two thumbs up!



1. Original.jpg
The original source image

2. Top.jpg
Top view of the 3d displaced image

3. Oblique.jpg
Oblique view of the 3d displaced image

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by Abed H Najjar »

.
Thank you Brian for taking the time to produce these highly revealing images.

They are indeed exceptional images which further endorse the undoubted genuineness of these stamps.

I would very much like to know more about the process of producing them.

Abed H Najjar
Abed H Najjar
More detail on the much-discussed GB 1d Red QV Plate 77 cover - http://victorhugocover.com

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by Global Administrator »

BrianBURU wrote:
19 Mar 2021 14:15

For what it’s worth, the stamp looks 100% original and tamper-proof to me. The ink and the engraving are both level, with no apparent evidence of disturbance, but the usual disclaimer applies of course. Two thumbs up!

Image
The original source image

Image
Top view of the 3d displaced image

Image
Oblique view of the 3d displaced image

Yes very compelling images. No wonder the RPS eventually tore up their childish SUMWUN GLOOD ON DA NUMBARHHS nonsense beyond belief original opinion, before they were globally shown to be idiots for uttering it. :!: :!:

Glen

And when challenged by a barrage of facts and SCIENCE by leading global experts, like cornered sewer rats, the RPS spat and hissed and blustered and bullied, and repeated it all again. GLOOD ON NUMBAHS - what absolute prejudiced DRIVEL.

And for those Leadhead Trogs with closed minds who sided with them, their credibility in the stamp world is likewise shattered to all. :!:

Image
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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by ViccyVFU »

If you can't see the second "7" box has been tampered with, even from these three clear pictures, then really you need to get to Specsavers (or at least apply for a white cane).

Plate 73, re-touched, with no British Certificate.

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Pie-in-the-Sky-2-1.jpg



The stamp hobby should crowd fund a free visit to Specsavers for the entire RPS "Expert" (sic) Committee and their 2 global cheerleader fans! We will ask for a Job Lot deal.

And buy them all a plastic globe of the world at the same time, to show them the Earth Is Not Flat. None of them will take a cruise for fear of falling off the edge. 8-) 8-)

Elvis regularly attends meetings there, as they also do not accept he is dead. They never issued a Certificate saying that, so Ipso Facto ....................

They have had their collective heads the sand so often, it has badly abraded their eyeballs. The average Blind Nun can spot some things clearer than them. :idea:

A walking joke in the philatelic world. Totally out of touch with reality and FACTS.

I am sure they still believe Margaret Thatcher is PM and Britain Rules The Waves, The Seige Of Mafeking is going very well, and man has never landed on the Moon. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Like the Swedish stamp ''Experts'' 40 years back, who to a MAN publicly declared the Tre Skilling Banco was forged, faked, pieced together, bleached, chemically altered etc. Loopy and childish ignorant nonsense, totally unsupported by any FACTS, and also totally debunked by SCIENCE, and now all accepted by the global stamp world as pretty mindless fiction. History repeats.
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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by mozzerb »

BrianBURU wrote:
19 Mar 2021 14:15
.
I posted images of a displacement map model on the 1856 1c British Guiana thread yesterday, and thought that I should do so likewise here in order to add my “two cents” worth. There is a brief explanation of the process there, so I will not repeat it.

For what it’s worth, the stamp looks 100% original and tamper-proof to me. The ink and the engraving are both level, with no apparent evidence of disturbance, but the usual disclaimer applies of course. Two thumbs up!

Image
The original source image
Image
Top view of the 3d displaced image
Image
Oblique view of the 3d displaced image
Um ... this appears to be an example of the "CSI Effect" -- i.e. the idea that significant detail can somehow be magically extracted from any old image by computational wizardry, as TV shows and films show being done. Doesn't work like that, unfortunately. You can't extract what isn't there in the first place.

In this case, that's not even a normal image of the stamp. It's an image from the output of scanning electron microscopy done on the stamp, and not even the topographic mode scan -- it's basically flat to begin with, as well as being low resolution. Running image manipulation techniques on it isn't going to generate anything significant.

If you want images of the surface geometry, Abed already has far better ones done by direct scanning posted on his site.

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by BrianBURU »

mozzerb wrote:
20 Mar 2021 09:40
Um ... this appears to be an example of the "CSI Effect"

These were not done in Photoshop, if that is what you mean by “manipulated images”. They are true 3 dimensional models with height and depth derived from greyscale information that the human eye cannot fully perceive. It is anything but flat!

The best way to fully appreciate it would on my computer, where it can be rotated, viewed and appreciated in 3d space. Unfortunately, this is not possible on this forum, and for this reason your criticism is unfair but hey, the easiest thing in the world is to be a critic…..right?
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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by BrianBURU »

Abed H Najjar wrote:
19 Mar 2021 19:57
.
Thank you Brian for taking the time to produce these highly revealing images.

They are indeed exceptional images which further endorse the undoubted genuineness of these stamps.

I would very much like to know more about the process of producing them.

Abed H Najjar

In a nutshell, you will need a powerful computer, software, and training.

For these reasons, I hesitate to even start an in depth discussion of the process, but will be happy to assist if you like.

The only thing that I really need is high resolution images, either in colour or in greyscale.
.

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by Global Administrator »

BrianBURU wrote:
31 Mar 2021 21:04

In a nutshell, you will need a powerful computer, software, and training.

Words and concepts that the head in the sand troglodyte purists in this hobby wince at! They hate science. :lol: :lol:

No more totally discredited and laughed at RPSL SUMWUN GLOOOD ON DA NUMBAHHAHS "Expert" views are possible then!

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by capetriangle »

Abed H Najjar wrote:
19 Mar 2021 19:57
.
Thank you Brian for taking the time to produce these highly revealing images.

They are indeed exceptional images which further endorse the undoubted genuineness of these stamps.

I would very much like to know more about the process of producing them.

Abed H Najjar

May I be the first to welcome you back to this thread, after an absence of over eight years. Your last post was on Tuesday, December 18, 2012, page 44 of the thread.

Maybe you could be persuaded to do something useful and post all 10 pages of the Sismondo certificate on this thread. Others have also asked you to do this, notably David Benson and Allanswood.

Only two pages have appeared on the thread and there is currently just the first page on your frequently changing website.

Thanking you in advance.

Kindest regards

Richard

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Richard, do the words - the stamps showing plate 77, cover and cancels are genuine not translate well into American "English"?

You sadly lost your philatelic reputation forever, for stating the 77 NUMBAAAHS were ''painted in'', and dumbly, you stood by that. Time and time again. Your choice. Despite all the views for those more expert than you declaring it so. Your trusty 10 x hand held magnifier told you this, you assured the world.

No-one else on the planet has offered a shred of evidence to support that childish view, and indeed a raft of real science, and super detailed expert examination of the cover, from various independent quarters, has dismissed your claim repeatedly as utter gibberish NONSENSE.

The PF later tore up your wacko view on their Cert you added to initially, and re-issued the correct Cert to adjust your nutty opinion into the real world - that the cover, stamps, and postmarks were all genuine, and all stamps show the number 77. Also shown below.

Have you been invited to continue on the PF Expert Committee since that disaster view trainwreck? That is known as a rhetorical question. :D

And you talk about OTHERS doing something ''useful''. Your pig-headed arrogance is breathtaking. :shock:

It forever tells the world that Richard Debney got it so hopelessly wrong, and that it is a ongoing miracle he ever mentions it again and keeps raising his gross ineptitude re stamp matters and poor judgement not to accept he was bog WRONG here. We all make mistakes in life - only fools keep REPEATING them.

Especially seeing Richard still works as a Stamp Auction describer. What a C.V.! Hope the buyers there never hear of this appalling lack of philatelic judgement? And more worrying, dogged refusal to accept reality, and the more experienced opinions of his PEERS. :!:

That even more sadly, he still holds. Maybe he thinks the world is still flat? Or Elvis is still alive in Las Vegas? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

If I owned it, I'd tell you and others to get stuffed with your failed philatelist clutching at straws like a drowning man petty demands. Australians are very subtle folks. But I do not own it sadly. :lol: :lol:

All you need to know is he paid good money to get told the cover and all stamps were genuine, and at the same time proving you were hopelessly WRONG. The page #1 summary #1 is all you need to focus on. Stamps all showing plate 77, and cover are all genuine.


Three recognised Certs state it is all 100% genuine. They are shown below. Zero Expert Certificates globally state it is not. End of story.




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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by mozzerb »

Global Administrator wrote:
01 Apr 2021 17:59
Richard, do the words - the stamps showing plate 77, cover and cancels are genuine not translate well into American "English"?
Yes, they do.

That's the problem.

Those words, and the rest of the two pages of the Sismondo certificate published, imply that he has certified the stamps as being from plate 77 (they're included in the total when he talks about known 77s, for example). But they're from plate 73, as even Abed acknowledges, and thus (on the assumption they are genuine) are something completely different from the known 77s.

If Sismondo hasn't grasped this basic point when talking about the stamps, it doesn't bode well for his ability to certify them accurately. That's why the remaining eight(!) pages of the certificate are relevant. If at some point in whatever they contain he discusses this point, all well and good. If not, then not.

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by capetriangle »

Glen

Since I will be shortly leaving for work, I will reply to your post later.

Nice to hear from you mozzerb.

Kindest regards

Richard

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by mozzerb »

BrianBURU wrote:
31 Mar 2021 21:03
mozzerb wrote:
20 Mar 2021 09:40
Um ... this appears to be an example of the "CSI Effect"
These were not done in Photoshop, if that is what you mean by “manipulated images”. They are true 3 dimensional models with height and depth derived from greyscale information that the human eye cannot fully perceive. It is anything but flat!

The best way to fully appreciate it would on my computer, where it can be rotated, viewed and appreciated in 3d space. Unfortunately, this is not possible on this forum, and for this reason your criticism is unfair but hey, the easiest thing in the world is to be a critic…..right?
.
Yes, it is. See Glen for example ...

What I mean by "image manipulation" is that you appear to have taken the low res image posted on this thread and run it through software to produce a 3D map of the greyscales.

Quite apart from the point that an image of that resolution is a very poor starting point for anything like this -- as previously noted, based on the description it's not even a topgraphic image, it's one that shows composition. hence the big dark area at the top which is off the stamp and says nothing about height. I say "flat" because surface topography should be obvious on a normal image even at this resolution.

And it's completely pointless anyway ...as I said, Abed already has perfectly good 3D images of the surface.

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by ViccyVFU »

Abed H Najjar wrote:
19 Mar 2021 19:57
They are indeed exceptional images which further endorse the undoubted genuineness of these stamps.
Errm, quite the opposite.

This one "clearly shows that the right box has been tampered with".

11a.jpg
Dumas Plate 73 Cover, re-touched in right box.

The right diamond was probably collared, washed out and re-laid, which would explain the alum imbalance found by "the Experts".

American certificates are largely irrelevant for UK line engraved forgeries - They simply don't have the expertise.

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by Global Administrator »

ViccyVFU wrote:
01 Apr 2021 22:16

The right diamond was probably collared, washed out and re-laid, which would explain the alum imbalance found by "the Experts".


Viccy - so you too are a globally acclaimed, highly credentialed, scientific paper forensic Document examiner, like Robert Radley is?

We are honoured to have you among us. And so bashful about your professional background in this area. Can you share all your trade and Uni and tertiary qualification in this field please, so we can wonder at them?

You are disputing the clear findings below of Robert Radley MSc, C Chem, FRSC, FCSFS, FSSoc Dip, FAE, RFP.

Unlike you, Radley is a Fellow of The Chartered Society of Forensic Sciences, a Fellow of the Academy of Experts, a Fellow of the Royal Society of Chemistry and a member of the American Society of Questioned Document Examiners (by whom he was awarded the Albert Osborn Award of Excellence in 2020). He completed the Assessors Course for the Council of the Registration of Forensic Practitioners and was an examiner for the Forensic Science Society for 12 years with respect to their Diploma in Document Examination.

Unlike you, Radley has been instructed by a large number of solicitors in the UK and abroad, as well as all major clearing Banks in England, and many other banks and solicitors worldwide. Other clients include insurance and finance companies, Local Government Authorities, Trading Standards Departments, the British Armed Forces, various Building Societies, The Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, the CPS and SFO, the US Department of Justice and a wide variety of private and public companies.

Unlike you, Radley has written numerous papers on a variety of aspects of questioned document examination, and has presented these to scientific meetings which he regularly attended both in this country and abroad. He has been on the Editorial Board of the International Journal of Forensic Document Examiners.

Unlike you, Radley has given evidence on several hundred occasions in the courts throughout the UK, Republic of Ireland, Jersey, Cyprus, Germany, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand, Brunei, Hong Kong, Singapore, Gibraltar, Malta, South Africa, Kenya, Canada, Trinidad and the British Virgin Islands.

Unlike you, Radley has a laboratory extensively equipped with instrumentation for the forensic examination of documents together with specialised photographic facilities that may be required in such cases. The Practice has one of the best libraries in the country concerning handwriting and document examination including a vast collection of scientific papers.

Here below is HIS detailed report based on his highly detailed examination on the cover - using magnification up to 140 times as he outlines - can we see your detailed Report please? Read Radley points 16,17 and 57-59 - he addresses your thought bubble specifically. And makes clear it is utter NONSENSE.

Oops -- I see it -- your stunning armchair deduction, after never seeing the cover, is -

numbers "PROBABLY" re-laid.

Very professional and highly convincing. Read the par above. Your view is rubbery desperation FICTION. Even the RPSL has had the brains to tear up publicly, their same original view as they were proven WRONG.


OR are you just a UK stamp dealer, who cannot accept reality that new finds CAN occur? READ the report perhaps -

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=8808&start=510


Here below is the highly qualified view from a globally acclaimed forensic document examiner EXPERT, who unlike you HAS examined the cover - No "probably" appears anywhere here, re your vague and dreamy "re-laid" thought bubble - -




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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by pennyblack1 »

For me the jury is most obviously still out on this. I know Abed very well, I consider him a friend, I have seen the cover on several occassions, and I have also bought and sold one of the genuine plate 77s in the last year, so at the risk of being shot down like so many others, I do have some extensive knowledge on this matter.

I am not going to go into the numerous arguments for and against Abed's cover, both sides have merit and I could ramble on forever about them, as has been done on this board, the key missing link at present is examples of three states of plate 73 :

STATE ONE - before the alleged change to 77 ....tick
STATE TWO - the stamps having beeb altered to 77 .... tick
STATE THREE - when the stamps have had the 7s turned back to 3s .... no tick

Find a definite STATE THREE and you have conclusive proof. Simples.

ATB

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by GB 789 »

Surely the ultimate ‘proof’ of how genuine collectors believe this stamp to be would be to put it up for auction and see what the market decides. The few well heeled collectors able to afford a genuine plate 77 would either create a bidding frenzy or kindly pass on the chance to own such a controversial stamp if they thought there was even a chance of it not being the genuine article.

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by pennyblack1 »

Sadly I fear not. Many 'collectors' are 'investors', and can often be quite private people. They may not have any knowledge of the item they are buying at all, and be prepared to believe the spiel of whoever is selling the item, be it auction house, dealer or another collector, and what to you and I is a vast sum of money is a pittance to some. The museums of the world are littered with forgeries bought for vast sums in good faith, and likewise many a collector has made a shrewd purchase - maybe Abed for example - and made a fabulous return on their investment - look at 'Salvator Mundi' - perhaps the ultimate - certainly divides opinions. It may well sell, but it won't prove anything.

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by Global Administrator »

pennyblack1 wrote:
01 Apr 2021 23:54

For me the jury is most obviously still out on this.

You are entitled to your view. Head in the sand thought processes are, sadly, rather common in the UK stamp world.

The 3 Expert Certificates, and detailed science and reports all agree the cover or stamps are not altered in any way. Whatever you think.

After all, the view of an anonymous member on a Bulletin Board, with just 8 posts in 12 years, carries enormous weight, especially when made on April 1st. :idea: :idea: :idea:

One of your previous posts here claimed the mint ''BA'' plate 77 in the Taping collection was "re-perforated".


tFH2Suz.jpg




You appear to be UNIQUE globally in holding that wacko view, but you are of course are free to claim it is re-perforated, or forged, or made from a plate 212, or whatever random brain explosion thought crosses your mind. It does not mean any of the above is correct of course. :idea:

The Thomas Taplin collection was donated to the British Museum in 1891 and Tapling purchased this stamp far earlier than that. Re-perforated my eye. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Another post you made on this cover stated -

"I do know that forgers can dip stamps in liquid nitrogen or something and then cut paper to the width of a molecule (or whatever the appropriate scientific term is)."

You were asked several times to offer any evidence for this totally loopy claim, and you refused to. You claimed you had an Expert who would back this up. You were asked to name this alleged "Expert" or get him to post here. And naturally nothing appeared. You received a short ban then, for posting unverified and gibberish nonsense here, and not retracting it, or verifying it, when called to.

Your credibility and stamp "knowledge" is there for all to see. The Brown Cardigan squad strikes again.

Admin


As I posted to you at the time, and 12 years later, it still holds true - all posted well BEFORE it received 3 clear Certificates, and a raft of detailed paper forensics and science, saying stamps and cover were all genuine and untampered with -

GlenStephens wrote:Dipping stamps affixed to a cover, in Liquid Nitrogen, and somehow cutting away paper to ''a molecule thick''. I've never read such arrant nonsense.
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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by BrianBURU »

mozzerb wrote:
01 Apr 2021 21:06
it's not even a topgraphic image,

Most governments provide elevation data in order to aid in the surveying and in the mapping of their respective countries. Here in Australia, the service is affectionately called ELVIS (Elevation Information System) and provides so-called foundation spatial data of elevation and depth for almost the entire country.

This consist of LIDAR Tiles of dtm (digital terrain model) or dsm (digital surface model) data, at various resolutions, depending on location. The built up areas, obviously have greater coverage, and therefore detail, the outback less so. These are supplied as FLAT greyscale image tiles, an example of one of which is shown below:



LIDAR.jpg
A dsm (digital surface model) tile

Black represents the lowest elevation, white the highest, and the greyscale the stretched gradient in-between. These image tiles are then imported into appropriate software, which interprets these levels and facilitates the generation of an accurate terrain model, based on the available grey gradient, or luminance, that can vary from 8-bits (256 levels) to 16-bits (65,536 levels) of grey…..levels way beyond the ability of our eyes.

In real life, our stamp is literally nearly flat, and will therefore display almost but far from completely black with much less variation in luminance when viewed in greyscale.

Nevertheless, the printing process will produce a “terrain” of sorts due to the application of ink and the subsequent depression of the surface. Because of this, it is a candidate for displacement modelling, as the images clearly show.
.

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by pennyblack1 »

After all, the view of an anonymous member on a Bulletin Board, with just 8 posts in 12 years, carries enormous weight, especially when made on April 1st.

I ended my first message yesterday with my name - Robin - unlike you.

Do you even understand what a repaired state is ? If so, you would fully understand my argument and I, with Abed as it happens, are both actively searching for this evidence - in fact he thinks he may have it but I haven't seen in the flesh yet.

I assume you have compared the perforations of the mint ones, as I have, and compared them and submitted your findings to the world authorities, who agree there are anomalies ?

Best regards,

Robin

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by Global Administrator »

pennyblack1 wrote:
02 Apr 2021 20:17

I assume you have compared the perforations of the mint ones, as I have,

And even after allegedly inspecting it - you posted here the Taplin ''BA'' example is re-perforated - you clearly are clueless and out of your depth. Have never handed it, but I can assure you from 10,000 miles away it is NOT "re-perforated". Clearly it (and AB for that matter) were cut apart with scissors at some time. :!:

And as for the utter total gibberish about dipping the cover into liquid Nitrogen, and splitting it and stamps into pieces "a molecule thick" - even more totally clueless beyond belief.

Those who have written reports are thankfully, experts on paper forensics.

Go and play with the Mulready's. Let's hope you know a bit more about them. 8-)

My name is Glen - all except you appear to realise that.

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by GB 789 »

On a slightly different note, is the repaired state, that is being looked at as a reason for this item showing plate 77, also found on other plates where the number has changed or will this be unique.

My main interest with line engraved lies with the prior perforated ‘stars’ issue but have found this situation very intriguing showing the possibilities of what can still be discovered after all these years.
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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by pennyblack1 »



Have a nice day Glen,

ATB

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by mozzerb »

BrianBURU wrote:
02 Apr 2021 17:26

Most governments provide elevation data in order to aid in the surveying and in the mapping of their respective countries. Here in Australia, the service is affectionately called ELVIS (Elevation Information System) and provides so-called foundation spatial data of elevation and depth for almost the entire country.

This consist of LIDAR Tiles of dtm (digital terrain model) or dsm (digital surface model) data, at various resolutions, depending on location. The built up areas, obviously have greater coverage, and therefore detail, the outback less so. These are supplied as FLAT greyscale image tiles, an example of one of which is shown below:


Image
A dsm (digital surface model) tile



Black represents the lowest elevation, white the highest, and the greyscale the stretched gradient in-between. These image tiles are then imported into appropriate software, which interprets these levels and facilitates the generation of an accurate terrain model, based on the available grey gradient, or luminance, that can vary from 8-bits (256 levels) to 16-bits (65,536 levels) of grey…..levels way beyond the ability of our eyes.

In real life, our stamp is literally nearly flat, and will therefore display almost but far from completely black with much less variation in luminance when viewed in greyscale.

Nevertheless, the printing process will produce a “terrain” of sorts due to the application of ink and the subsequent depression of the surface. Because of this, it is a candidate for displacement modelling, as the images clearly show.

Well yes -- if you have an image that has been specifically constructed to encode height data then you can process it in this way and get a useful 3D map out of it.

Abed's image that you used isn't such an image. As far as I can see from its short description (Abed is welcome to correct me if I'm misinterpreting this), the SEM wasn't used in a topographical mode on this image and the greyscales represent concentrations of heavy metals.

Trying to interpret that as height information isn't going to produce anything useful.
.

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by mozzerb »

pennyblack1 wrote:
02 Apr 2021 20:17
Do you even understand what a repaired state is ? If so, you would fully understand my argument and I, with Abed as it happens, are both actively searching for this evidence - in fact he thinks he may have it but I haven't seen in the flesh yet.

I saw the draft of a paper by Abed on this subject a few years back AFAIR -- I'll have to see if I still have it somewhere on my PC.

Wasn't sure he'd got what he was looking for, but really he'd do much better to post this stuff somewhere like the Mulready group (well, stamp-forums.com now), or even Stampboards(!) and let people comment?

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by BrianBURU »

mozzerb wrote:
02 Apr 2021 23:34
Well yes -- if you have an image that has been specifically constructed to encode height data then you can process it in this way and get a useful 3D map out of it.

No sir! ANY greyscale image can be processed in a useful way. Not to LIDAR standard, which was designed for terrestrial mapping from an orbiting satellite, but useful nevertheless in order to aid in visualising it to your average Joe trying to make out what the heck all this silly fuss is really about.

Do you seriously expect height data in an image of a few square millimetres with an overall elevation of a small fraction of that? What good would it do?

No wonder Abed is keeping mum! The Church of Divine Disbelief has adjudged him, and all others be damned for eternity! Another inquisition anyone?

Happy Easter!

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Re: GB 1864 1d red - the rare plate 77 - newly discovered cover?

Post by mozzerb »

BrianBURU wrote:
03 Apr 2021 10:29

Do you seriously expect height data in an image of a few square millimetres with an overall elevation of a small fraction of that? What good would it do?

My point exactly.

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