Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

This is a note about
(1) Romansh speakers in Switzerland; (2) Indian/Hindi personal names and titles; and (3) Sanskrit.

On the Happy Day thread there was a recent post by Stampboarder sovanksahu, who lives in Mont sur Rolle, Switzerland. His post received a reply by another Stampboarder that included a couple of words of French, making me wonder whether French was the most appropriate language to include. I tried to deduce from the member name sovanksahu what linguistic affiliations might be indicated, but I made no real progress, so I posted:
RogerE wrote:
10 Jun 2020 15:01
Perhaps sovanksahu, you could explain your Stampboards name for us? It doesn't appear to be any language I can guess at (could it possibly have Romansh connections?)
...
All became clear with the following reply, and we learn something about (1) Romansh, the fourth official language of Switzerland, and (2) Indian/Hindi given and family names:
sovanksahu wrote:Sorry to disappoint RogerE, ... mine is a lazy combination of my first name (Sovan) and family name (Sahu). K stands for Kumar, like thousands of other Indians I suppose :) ...

Romansch speakers (less than 1% of the population) are mostly in the Graubunden region, and the closest is thought to be Italian.
Following up on the name Kumar, I found:
Wikipedia wrote:Kumar (Sanskrit: कुमार kumārá) is a Hindu title, a Buddhist title and a given name, middle name, or a family name found in the Indian subcontinent, mainly in India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and Nepal, though not specific to any caste or community. It is a generic title which variously means prince, son, boy, or chaste. It is the 11th most common family name in the world as of August 2019. It is more common in Northern India and the most common family name in Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Jharkhand, Haryana, Delhi, Kerala, Tamil Nadu and Pondicherry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumar

कुमार [ku-mar] son, boy
कुमारि [ku-ma-ri] daughter, girl
राजा [raa-ja] king, ruler
राजकुमार [raaj-ku-mar] prince 'royal son"
राजकुमारि [raaj-ku-ma-ri] princess 'royal daughter"
र, रा [ra, raa] [j,ja] क, कु [k, ku] म, मा [ma, maa] [r, ra].

Tracing Kumar to Sanskrit origins prompts a little background reading about (3) Sanskrit:
Wikipedia wrote:Sanskrit (/ˈsænskrɪt/ Sanskrit: संस्कृतम्, romanized: saṃskṛtam, IPA: [ˈsɐ̃skr̩tɐm] is an Indo-Aryan or Indic language of the ancient Indian subcontinent with a 3,500-year history. It is the primary liturgical language of Hinduism and the predominant language of most works of Hindu philosophy as well as some of the principal texts of Buddhism and Jainism. Sanskrit, in its variants and numerous dialects, was the lingua franca of ancient and medieval India. In the early 1st millennium AD, along with Buddhism and Hinduism, Sanskrit migrated to Southeast Asia, parts of East Asia and Central Asia, emerging as a language of high culture and of local ruling elites in these regions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit[url][/url]

संस्कृतम [san-skrə-təm] Sanskrit
स, सं [s, san]
स + क = स्क; स्क + र = स्कृ [s + k = sk; sk + r = skr, skrə]
[t, tə] [m]

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by Stewie1980 »

RogerE wrote:
10 Jun 2020 13:48
• I am fairly confident of the French pronunciations I offered, but less confident about the Flemish/Belgian Dutch. In particular, a comment on {BD] België [bɛl-'ʒiə] — Belgium would be appreciated.
België is pronounced [bɛlɣiə] with a soft 'j' (as y in yes) sound between i and ə.
RogerE wrote:
10 Jun 2020 13:48
• When I think about Wereldtentoonstelling I see parallels between Dutch [D] and German [G]:
[D] de wereld, [G] die Weltthe world
[D] de tentoonstelling, [G] die Ausstellungthe exhibition
The German die Ausstellung ("placing out, setting out") is a cognate of die Wortstellung ("word placement, word order") discussed previously. I see that paralleled in the Dutch oonstelling, which leaves me wondering about tent-. Could that possibly refer to using tents to house a temporary exhibition, in the same way that travelling circuses use tents to set up in a temporary location‽ I am curious and intrigued. Any insights?
I don't think tents have something to do with the word 'tentoonstelling'. 'Oonstelling' doesn't mean anything.

There is a famous long strange word with 'tentoonstelling': Hottentottententententoonstelling. Try to figure this one out! ;)
RogerE wrote:
10 Jun 2020 13:48
• Another more general question. Although German is the third official language of Belgium, it is apparently a minority language, and does not normally appear on the stamps. To what extent can German speakers and Dutch speakers understand each other? (I am guessing the accents differ so much that the spoken standard languages are not mutually understandable, even though the written languages might be somewhat understandable.)
I think German speakers and Dutch speakers don't understand each other much. But there are quit a lot of words the same or allmost the same in both languages.

I learned a few German words as a kid from tv, later I had German classes on middle school and high school. I live only a few km from the border and I have to speak German ofcourse when I'm there. I understand German for allmost 99%, but to speak German I find hard.
RogerE wrote:
10 Jun 2020 13:48
May I ask about Afrikaans? Is that regarded as a dialect of Dutch or a separate language? (A parallel: the French spoken in Québec is usually regarded as a dialect of standard French.)
Afrikaans is a seperate langauge. It evolved from Dutch dialects spoken by settlers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaans

Dutch was the official language of Orange Free State, South African Republic (Transvaal) and South Africa till 1961. In 1925 Afrikaans was given an equal status next to Dutch

The first two issues of the Union of South Africa are in Dutch and English. Issues from 1925 till the mid 1990s are in Afrikaans and English.

Dutch speakers and Afrikaans speakers can understand a lot from eachother when it's on paper. If an Afrikaans speaker would talk Afrikaans to a Dutch speaker he/she wouldn't understand much from Afrikaans, also because of the heavy accent.
RogerE wrote:
10 Jun 2020 13:48
It is interesting that in Afrikaans we see posseel used in 1939, but posgeld in 1954.
I am guessing at pronunciations ['pɔs-se:l] and ['pɔs-ɣe:lt]. I also guess the following pronunciations: Suid-Afrika ['sʏ-ɪd-'ɑf-rɪ-ka:] and Oranje-Vrystaat [ɔ-'ra:n-ʒə 'frɪ-sta:t]. Expert confirmation or correction would be appreciated!
Posseël [pɔs-se:əl] - postage stamp
Posgeld [pɔs-ɣɛlt] - postage money (literally)
Suid-Afrika [sœyt a:frika:]
Oranje Vrijstaat (Dutch) and Oranje-Vrystaat (Afrikaans) [o:rɑnjə vrɛista:t]

An 'ë' as in 'België' and 'Posseël' is not an 'e' with a different pronounciation as in most languages.
The two dots ('Trema' in Dutch) are used in vowel combinations when the vowels have to be pronounced separately and not as one.
Without a trema 'België' [bɛlɣiə] would be 'Belgie' [bɛlɣi].

There are more combinations with 'trema's', also possible with ï, ö, ä and ü.
Zeeën - seas
Geïrriteerd - irritated
Coöperatie - cooperative
Naäpen - mimicking
Vacuüm - vacuum

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Thanks stewie1980 for another detailed and welcome contribution to this thread. As usual, the personal experience/real world details help us to appreciate how these matters enter everyday life.

Giving us accurate pronunciation guidance using IPA = International Phonetic Alphabet is particularly helpful. (My "guesses" were too inclined to lean towards French versions of 'g' and 'j' when I was uncertain.)

Your comments about relative intelligibility of Dutch/German and of Dutch/Afrikaans are also appreciated, thanks.

I have worked through the Afrikaans link you included, and will quote a little from it here. I must say that some rather sad themes are apparent: for a very long time Afrikaans was treated as "unschooled, kitchen speech", not accorded status as a "proper" language, and only granted formal recognition, against entrenched resistance, after prolonged efforts by its proponents.
Wikipedia wrote:On 8 May 1925, twenty-three years after the Second Boer War ended, the Official Languages of the Union Act of 1925 was passed — mostly due to the efforts of the Afrikaans language movement — at a joint sitting of the House of Assembly and the Senate, in which the Afrikaans language was declared a variety of Dutch. The Constitution of 1961 reversed the position of Afrikaans and Dutch, so that English and Afrikaans were the official languages, and Afrikaans was deemed to include Dutch. The Constitution of 1983 removed any mention of Dutch altogether...

Standardisation [of Afrikaans]
...
The first grammar book was published in 1876; a bilingual dictionary was later published in 1902. The main modern Afrikaans dictionary in use is the Verklarende Handwoordeboek van die Afrikaanse Taal (HAT). A new authoritative dictionary, called Woordeboek van die Afrikaanse Taal (WAT), is under development as of 2018. The official orthography of Afrikaans is the Afrikaanse Woordelys en Spelreëls, compiled by Die Taalkommissie.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaans
.
Image

South Africa stamps: 1984, New Constitution, SG 638-641, Mi 655-658
For linguistic comparison:
[Afrikaans] Aanhef van die Grondwet
[Dutch] Preambule van de grondwet
Preamble to the Constitution
The pronunciation of Grondwet in both cases seems to be ['ɣrɔnt-ʋɛt].

Footnote:
Earlier discussions about Latin on stamps can be continued here noting the Latin motto on the arms stamp, and its subsequent replacement by a more generally acceptable motto in ǀXam:
Wikipedia wrote: Ex Unitate Vires (literally "from unity, strength") is a Latin phrase formerly used as the national motto of South Africa. It was originally translated as "Union is Strength" but was later revised in 1961 to mean "Unity is Strength"... Following the end of apartheid in 1994, the motto was retained along with the coat of arms for a time. However, because of the implication that it represented white British and Afrikaners uniting against black people, Ex Unitate Vires was replaced in 2000 as the national motto of South Africa by ǃke e꞉ ǀxarra ǁke (ǀXam: Unity Through Diversity).
The choice of ǀXam is an appropriate prestigious ancient language, an African parallel to Latin.
Wikipedia wrote: ǀXam (or ǀKham, pronounced [ǀ͡xam], in English /ˈkɑːm/) is considered an extinct language of South Africa formerly spoken by the ǀXam-ka ǃʼē of South Africa... The pipe at the beginning of the name ǀXam represents a dental click, like the English interjection tsk, tsk!
/RogerE :D
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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by honza »

Wikipedia wrote:On 8 May 1925, twenty-three years after the Second Boer War ended, the Official Languages of the Union Act of 1925 was passed — mostly due to the efforts of the Afrikaans language movement — at a joint sitting of the House of Assembly and the Senate, in which the Afrikaans language was declared a variety of Dutch. The Constitution of 1961 reversed the position of Afrikaans and Dutch, so that English and Afrikaans were the official languages, and Afrikaans was deemed to include Dutch. The Constitution of 1983 removed any mention of Dutch altogether...
Ahoj everyone,

I suppose the spelling of 'Zuid Afrika' on the first two issues of South Africa represents Dutch and the subsequent 'Suidafrika and Suid-Afrika' Afrikaans. If the relevant Act was only passed on 8 May 1925, I wonder why Suidafrika already adorns the airmail issue of 25th February 1925?

Cheers,

Honza

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by honza »

Stewie1980 wrote:
11 Jun 2020 05:04
[

There is a famous long strange word with 'tentoonstelling': Hottentottententententoonstelling. Try to figure this one out! ;)
Ahoj Stewie!

The above reminds me of a similarly contrived word in German that we were amused by at school.

Hottentottenpotentatentantenattentat = the assassination attempt on the aunt of a Hottentot ruler :lol:

Cheers,

Honza

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by norvic »

RogerE wrote:
09 Jun 2020 00:56
This thread is about stamps and languages in a very broad sense, so in this post I will take up another "alphabet", which complements the ICAO/NATO phonetic code, previously discussed on this thread.

The ICS = International Code of Signals is a maritime flag-based system. It is able to "spell out" messages, but in addition it is elaborated so that special single flags or combinations of flags can compactly convey important messages. Example:
Image

K = Kilo = "Communicate with me"
The meaning of the Y(Yankee) flag is shown in your example (and on wikipedia) as meaning "I am dragging my anchor." But of interest to collectors particularly is that, at one time, and still on the Australian site and on MarineBuzz it is shown as indicating "I am carrying mails".

When Royal Mail issued a sheet of White Ensign stamps showing maritime flags on the attached labels, I headed up our webpage thus:

2005-whitee-nsign.png

meaning "N O R V I C - carrying the mails!
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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

In the Happy Day thread,
sagi2917 wrote:
11 Jun 2020 17:13
The parcel did not arrive in perfect condition but had a nice MS [minisheet] on it when sent and 64 page Prinz stockbook to arrange my India post independence used ones in a new book
Image
.
The minisheet used on sagi2917's parcel, and the six stamps it contains, were issued in 2007:
.
Image

India 2007: Set of six stamps: 2550 Years of Mahaparinirvana of the Buddha

Image

India 2007: Miniature Sheet 2550 Years of Mahaparinirvana of the Buddha
.
The Hindi inscription on the minisheet

बुद्ध [bud-dha] Buddha ['u' like 'oo' in English "look"]
[b, ba] बु [bu]
[d, da] [dh, dha] द + ध = द्ध [ddha]

बुद्ध के महापरिनिर्वाण के 2550 वर्ष
[buddhə ke mahaaparinirvaanə ke 2550 varsh]
2550 years of Buddha's Mahaparinirvana

[k, ka] के [ke] of
The word के [ke] plays an important role in Hindi grammar.
Note the "nested" use of के [ke] in the above phrase.

Comparison of वर्ष [varsh] and साल [saal]

The Hindi words वर्ष [varsh] and साल [saal] are both translated year, and Hindi speakers apparently regard them as equivalent.
The corresponding Urdu words are براس [baras] and سال [saal], also regarded by speakers as equivalent.
I wonder whether in fact [saal] essentially refers to a unit of time, whereas [varsh] refers more to the duration, rather like the French words an and année, both translated year in English. Any expert comments would be welcome.

The meaning of Mahaparinirvana

महान [ma-haan] great, noble, glorious
निर्वाण [nir-vaanə] Nirvana
Wikipedia wrote:In Buddhism, parinirvana (Sanskrit: parinirvāṇa; Pali: parinibbāna) is commonly used to refer to nirvana-after-death, which occurs upon the death of someone who has attained nirvana during his or her lifetime. It implies a release from the Saṃsāra, karma and rebirth as well as the dissolution of the skandhas.

In some Mahāyāna scriptures, notably the Mahāyāna Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra, Parinirvāṇa is described as the realm of the eternal true Self of the Buddha.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parinirvana

Parinirvana is central to Buddhism, and naturally figures in the languages of cultures where Buddhism has been widely adopted. For example
Burmese‎: ‎ပရိနိဗ္ဗာန် [parinibbaran]
.
Korean‎: ‎반열반 [banyeolban]
.
Japanese‎: ‎般涅槃 [hatsunehan]
.
Khmer: ‎បរិនិព្វាន [brinipvean]
/RogerE :D
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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Waffle, in his nice thread on Spanish and Andorran stamps of 2009, included the following two Andorran stamps.
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=90484&start=84
.
Andorra stamp 2009: Three Wise Men
Andorra stamp 2009: Three Wise Men
Andorra stamp 2009: International Year of Astronomy
Andorra stamp 2009: International Year of Astronomy
.
All Andorran stamps are inscribed in Catalan = Catalá, the official language.
Let's look at the inscriptions.
Principat d'AndorraPrincipality of Andorra
Correus EspanyolsSpanish Postal Service

NadalChristmas.
Homenatge a l'ONCA Homage/tribute to ONCA

The ONCA = Orquestra Nacional Clàssica d'Andorra regularly presents concerts both in Andorra and in Barcelona's Palau de la Música Catalana.

Any internacional de l'astronomia International Year of Astronomy
Un univers per descobrir A universe to discover

Compare the Catalan = Catalá inscriptions with the French and Spanish equivalents, to see the similarities and differences:
NadalNoëlNavidad
Homenatge a l'ONCA Hommage à l'ONCAHomenaje a la ONCA
Any internacional de l'astronomiaAnnée internationale de l'astronomieAño internacional de la astronomía
Un univers per descobrirUn univers à découvrir —[ b]Un universo por descubrir[/b].

Perhaps an expert can tell us how to pronounce the Catalan words Homenatge and Any internacional, as well as adding any corrections or extra information that might be relevant to this post. :D

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by cursus »

I guess, I'm the only Catalan speaking around. I'll see what I can do. I'm not a linguist.
1.- The accent on letter "a", like in "català" it's always "`" à, not "´" á, like in Spanish.
2.- As for the pronuntiation, I'll do my best. In Andorra it will be:
"h" is always a mute letter, we never pronunce it.
"o"is like "o" in notify. In Barcelona, it would be like "oo"
"m" like in mother
"e" sounds like "e" in red. In Barcelona it would be like "a" in are
"n" like in note
"a" like "a" in are
"t" like the "t" in topic
"g" lie the the second "g" in engage
"e" like "e" in red. In Barcelona it would be like "a" in are

The sound onf the digraf "ny" is like the French "gn" or the Spanish "ñ"

I must say that in Catalan the pronunciation varies depending on the area. The grammar and the spelling are always the same all around the Catalan speaking area: Andorra, Catalonia, València, Balearic Islands, Alguer (in Sardinia), Northern Catalonia (SE France) and Eastern Aragon (Spain), that we call "the Sunset stripe".
But for the pronunciation we differentiate two main variants (we hate the word "dialect"):
1.- Català Oriental or Eastern Catalan, spoken in Eastern Catalonia, Balearic Islands (with a distinc pronunctiation for each island) and l'Alguer (with an Italian influence). In Northen Catalonia, they speak Eastern Catalan, but with a French influence.
2.- Català Occidental or Western Catalan spoken in Andorra, Western Catalonia, Eastern Aragon and València (where it is called "valencià").

In general in Western Catalan, "e" tends to sound always more like red while in Eastern we tend towards "e" in "the"; "o" in Western Catalan is always like notify, while in Eastern is more like "oo·. Some words might also change their meaning or choose different options.
Hence, the diference on pronunciation that I've set up.

Media, tend to use all variants, although Eastern Catalan has the most speakers.

As an Eastern Catalan speaker (I'm from Barcelona, that lies on the East coast) I can fully understand all other variants, but I'm able to locate where someone comes from. Even within Eastern Catalonia.

I must say, that this is very normal, at least in W. Europe
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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Thanks cursus, a very interesting response. So now we have a "fine grained" appreciation of how Catalan = Català is pronounced in various regions, and how regional pronunciations differ enough to identify where speakers come from.

Let's have a look at how Catalan = Català expresses the present tense of the verb to be. There are two Catalan verbs which together cover the range of the English verb to be.
.
ser/ésserto beestar

jo sócI amjo estic
tu etsyou aretu estàs
ell éshe isell està
ella ésshe isella està
nosaltres somwe arenosaltres estem/estam
vosaltres souyou arevosaltres esteu/estau
ells sónthey areells estan
.
If we are reading Catalan for understanding, it is probably enough to know these verb forms. However, if we wish to communicate in Catalan we would need to study the circumstances and nuances governing which of the two verbs is appropriate for what we wish to say.

As a partial/approximate guide:
Ser is used to apply adjectives to objects when the state is permanent or lasting.
Estar is used to apply adjectives to objects if the state is temporary.

Examples:
és molt maca, she is very beautiful; està molt maca, she is looking very beautiful [even more than usual]
és mort, he is dead; està com mort, he is acting as if he were dead.

Several other Romance language also have two verbs which jointly cover the meanings of the English verb to be, including
Spanish: ser, estar.
Portuguese: ser, estar.
Italian: essere, stare.
Sicilian: siri, stari.

On the other hand, other Romance languages have just one verb corresponding to to be, including
French: être.
Occitan: estre.
Romansh: esser.

An extensive and detailed treatment of to be in Romance languages is given in the Wikipedia article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_copula

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Hello sagi2917, glad you liked my post:
sagi2917 wrote:
13 Jun 2020 13:54
...
Really nice post :D

Varsh and saal both refer to a year
I must admit I can't let go of the idea that the two different words must not be completely identical in meaning. I did guess that one might be a time unit, and the other a measure of duration/time passed. Was that incorrect? Are there "background" differences, such as one has a business or commercial connotation, while the other is more poetic or literary? Or one has a religious association, while the other has a mundane association? Or one is more closely related to Sanskrit than the other, and so has a more scholarly or prestigious undertone? These are all just guesses on my part, but reflect my feeling that there must be some contexts/sentences where it would not ring true to replace one of the words varsh/saal by the other.

Any follow-up comments welcome!

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by Hyderabadi »

RogerE - Varsh is more formal and not used in day to day settings, Saal is more informal and used in normal conversation. Varsh also I guess has a closer linkage to Sanskrit.

Oh also the written word Buddha in hindi spells Budh, to hindi speakers and most Indians it’s Budh and not Buddha
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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Thanks Hyderabadi — you've clarified the subtle distinction between varsh/saal, thank you!

Thanks also for the current Hindi pronunciation of बुद्ध [buddh] — my analysis
preserves the d + dh ligature.
So here is my corrected analysis — I trust that it's now correct:
बुद्ध [bud-dh] Buddha ['u' like 'oo' in English "look"]
[b, ba] बु [bu]
[d, da] [dh] + = द्ध [ddh]

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

In the thread for Spanish and Andorran stamps of 2016, Waffle gives us an opportunity to learn a little Spanish.
Let's look at this image:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=90828&start=8
.
.<br />Spain, 2016, booklet of four postcard stamps — scenic towns (Series 1)
.
Spain, 2016, booklet of four postcard stamps — scenic towns (Series 1)
.
Note: I cannot decide whether this is a booklet of four stamps for use on postcards, or a set of four postcards with stamps imprinted on them. If Waffle could post a further image (the stamps inside the booklet, if it's the former; the stamped side of one of the postcards, if it's the latter) that would settle the matter. I've supplied a translation which assumes the former.

The four towns depicted are: Albarracín, La Alberca, Alcalá del Júcar, Santillana del Mar.

The Spanish inscriptions

el pueblo [pueblo] — town, village
con [kon] — with
el encanto [enkanto] — charm

Pueblos con encanto [pueblos kon enkanto] — charming towns

el juego [xueɣo] — set, group; game
cuatro [kwatro] — four
el sello [seʎo] — postage stamp
la tarjeta postal [tarxeta postal]— postcard

Juego de cuatro sellos de tarjetas postales con tarifa A
[xueɣo de kwatro seʎos de tarxetas postales kon tarifa a]
Set of four A-rate postcard stamps

Pronunciation

The IPA sound [ɣ] is like the 'g' in English again, but without the tongue touching the roof of the mouth.
The IPA sound [ʎ] is like the 'lli' in English miallion.
The IPA sound [x] is like the 'ch' in Scottish loch.

A helpful user-friendly presentation of IPA symbols for Spanish is given by Wikipedia at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Spanish

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by Waffle »

Malheuresement !!!! RogerE, the set contained within the 2016 yearbook was only 5 stampless tiny cards. There were no A class stamps to use them with.
I prefer to collect UK, British Commonwealth esp Pacific area ( not excluding West Indies/Canada ) and Western Europe. At the bottom of my zone of interest is Eastern Europe and communist countries.

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Thanks for the response, Waffle.
Curiouser and curiouser! said Alice. And five, not four, in spite of "cuatro" on the displayed item‽
I am bepuzzled... Can you please show us any of the tiny postcards — in your 2016 thread would probably be most appropriate — front and back of one should suffice?

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by MrSamoa »

There are two Samoas: American Samoa and (Western) Samoa. When the islands were partitioned in 1900, America took the eastern islands (with Pago Pago) and Germany took the western islands (with Apia). (Great Britain too Tonga.) After WWI, the League of Nations mandated the western island to be under New Zealand control until independence could be achieved. (That finally happened in 1961.)

Both Samoas list both English and Samoan as their official languages. American Samoa always used the stamps of the USA. (Western) Samoa dropped the word "Western" in 1997. Stamps up until that time included the name "Samoa i Sisifo", which means "Samoa in the West" or "Western Samoa". Now the stamps simply say "Samoa".

I have not seen any catalogue use the Samoa language to describe any stamps, but here is a short list of colors:

white = lanu pa'epa'e
black = lanu uliuli
red = lanu mumu
orange = lanu moli (moli is also the fruit orange)
yellow = lanu samasama
green = lanu meamata
blue = lanu moana (moana also means ocean)
purple = lanu viole (from the English violet)
pink = lanu piniki (from the English pink)
Fellowship of Samoa Specialists is not just for specialists: http://www.samoaexpress.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Marty

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Thank you MrSamoa. Yours is the first post on this thread to discuss a language indigenous to the South Pacific.
.
.<br />Flag of Samoa ((Samoan: fu'a o Sāmoa)<br />.
.
Flag of Samoa ((Samoan: fu'a o Sāmoa)
.
.<br />Samoa stamps: 1977, Stamp Centenary
.
Samoa stamps: 1977, Stamp Centenary
.
I deduced from your colour examples the "correspondence":
lanucolour
I verified this using Google translate, and learnt there the related word
felanulanuaʻi colourful.

Your examples indicate that [at least some] colours in Samoan are expressed as "the colour of" together with the word for something familiar and characteristic of the colour.
You have explained that
moli is an orange (fruit), so lanu moli is the colour orange.
moana is the ocean, so lanu moana is the colour blue. I can attest that the Pacific is typically a beautiful blue.

I was unable to find items/substances/things to match the Samoan words pa'epa'e, uliuli, mumu, samasama, meamata, though I did recall that mumu is a long Hawaiian dress. Do any of these words have stand-alone meanings as nouns?

Learning about Samoan in general, I looked at the Wikipedia article on the language.
Wikipedia wrote:Samoan (Gagana faʻa Sāmoa or Gagana Sāmoa; IPA: [ŋaˈŋana ˈsaːmʊa]) is the language of the Samoan Islands, comprising Samoa and the United States territory of American Samoa. It is an official language, alongside English, in both jurisdictions.

Samoan, a Polynesian language, is the first language for most of the Samoa Islands' population of about 246,000 people. With many Samoan people living in other countries, the total number of speakers worldwide was estimated at 510,000 in 2015. It is the third most widely spoken language in New Zealand.

The language is notable for the phonological differences between formal and informal speech as well as a ceremonial form used in Samoan oratory.
The Samoan alphabet, together with IPA = International Phonetic Alphabet pronunciation, is as follows.

Vowels:
Aa /a/, Āā /aː/, Ee /ɛ/, Ēē /eː/, Ii /ɪ/, Īī /iː/, Oo /o/, Ōō /ɔː/, Uu /ʊ, w/, Ūū /uː/

Consonants:
Ff /f/, Gg /ŋ/, Ll /l, ɾ/, Mm /m/, Nn /n, ŋ/, Pp /p/, Ss /s/, Tt /t, k/, Vv /v/
The extra consonants h, k, r occur in foreign loan words used in Samoan.

Glottal stop:
‘ /ʔ/
Called koma liliuturned comma, or ʻokina.

Notes
(1) Vowel length is phonemic in Samoan — that is, the meanings of otherwise similarly spelled words is differentiated by vowel length.
Example: tamachild, boy; tamāfather.
(2) All vowels have a long form denoted by the macron.
(3) A macron (/ˈmækrɒn, ˈmeɪ-/) is a diacritical mark: it is a straight bar (¯) placed above a letter, usually a vowel. Its name derives from Ancient Greek μακρόν (makrón) "long".
(4) English speakers need to pay particular attention to the pronunciation of 'g' /ŋ/, as at the end of the English word "sing". For example, the town Pago Pago is [ˈpaŋo ˈpaŋo].
(5) The glottal stop ‘ /ʔ/ is phonemic in Samoan.
Example: mai from, originate from; maʻi sickness, illness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samoan_language
.
Flag of American Samoa
Flag of American Samoa
.
/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by MrSamoa »

Roger-

As I recall, Samoans did not have a written language pre-European contact. The missionaries heard the sounds and wrote them down. This became the Samoan alphabet and written language.

The spoken language is both simple and very complex. There are different words depending to whom you are speaking. There is the everyday language spoken to an equal or someone of lower status. There is also the formal language spoken to a superior (a chief, pastor, teacher, etc.). And the chielfy language varies as to whether one is speaking to a Chief or an Orator (just another type of chief).

Also words written with a "T" are most often spoken with a "K". Yet, a foreigner is expected to always talk with a "T"; and teachers should always talk with a "T" to the students, and pastors would always use the "T". When in-country, this is difficult at first as you hear someone tell you "fa'afekai" yet you answer "fa'afetai lava". You do get used to it. I have heard some Peace Corps who had a good grasp of the language, and were in village settings talk with the "K". In my 7 years living in a village, I always stuck to the "T".
Fellowship of Samoa Specialists is not just for specialists: http://www.samoaexpress.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Marty

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Thanks Marty = MrSamoa. Once again, we gain deeper understanding thanks to personal dimensions and experience shared with us. :D

The Wikipedia source material I cited includes the parallel comment: The language is notable for the phonological differences between formal and informal speech as well as a ceremonial form used in Samoan oratory.

Readers may notice that two IPA sounds are given (in my previous post) for the letters 'n' and 't' — these correspond to what Marty indicates are "high" language [official language] and "common" language [informal language] pronunciations.

Two pronunciations are also noted for 'L', but these do not have a "high" vs "common" distinction. They are a general pronunciation choice for the letter 'L', depending on what are the adjacent sounds. If the 'L' is preceded by a back vowel /a, o, u/ or followed by /i/ then 'L' is pronounced [ɾ]; otherwise it is pronounced [l].
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samoan_language

Marty = MrSamoa, no doubt you are right that the written form of the language was introduced by Europeans. This happened in many parts of the world during the "exploration and colonial era". The accuracy and suitability of the introduced scripts varied considerably, depending on the skills and general adaptability of those inventing the written forms.
.
.<br />Samoa, 1969, R.L. Stevenson death centenary FDC
.
Samoa, 1969, R.L. Stevenson death centenary FDC
.
A famous resident of Samoa remembered.
Tusitaisaliteracy.

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Corrections to my post about the Samoan FDC commemorating R.L. Stevenson:
75th anniversary, not centenary! Apologies for my mistake.
.
.<br />Samoa, 1969, set of four stamps commemorating 75th anniversary of death of R.L. Stevenson
.
Samoa, 1969, set of four stamps commemorating 75th anniversary of death of R.L. Stevenson
.
.<br />Samoa, 1994, set of four stamps commemorating centenary of death of R.L. Stevenson (Mi785-788)
.
Samoa, 1994, set of four stamps commemorating centenary of death of R.L. Stevenson (Mi785-788)
.
vailima watermelon

Vailima House ($4 stamp) was R.L. Stevenson's residence. It is now the residence of the head of state.
Afkasi wrote:Higher on the mountain slope, it is cooler than in Apia with a delightful view. The building is lovely. It and the grounds are kept in excellent condition. There is still much love and respect for Tusitala (RLS). Not only was he a renowned author, but he lobbied relentlessly for the rights of native Samoans. So much so, local European and American officials considered deporting him. (2006)
https://tinyurl.com/yblhconk
.
tusitala author An entirely appropriate Samoan title for Stevenson.
In my previous post I misread the word on the 1969 stamps (fancy font contributed).
.
.<br />Samoa, 1939, 7d definitive, R.L. Stevenson (SG198, Sc184)
.
Samoa, 1939, 7d definitive, R.L. Stevenson (SG198, Sc184)
.
/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Waffle has been posting images of recent Spanish and Andorran stamps, and some of these have already motivated some of my posts on this thread.

Here is another of his splendid images. It motivates us to learn a little more Spanish/Castilian.
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=90828&start=10
.
.<br />Spain, 2016, minisheet celebrating Salamanca
.
Spain, 2016, minisheet celebrating Salamanca
.
Conjuntos urbanos SalamancaSalamanca urban complexes
Patrimonio de la HumanidadWorld Heritage
Conjuntos urbanos Patrimonio de la Humanidad SalamancaSalamanca: World Heritage urban complexes
______________________
An earlier post included discussion of how the English verb "to be" is covered by two separate verbs in Catalan, as well as several other Romance languages, including Spanish/Castilian. The present tense conjugation of the two Catalan verbs were included in the post:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=184

Here is the conjugation of the corresponding Spanish/Castilian verbs:
.
serto beestar

yo soyI amyo estoy
tú eresyou aretú estás
él eshe isel está
ella esshe isella está
nosotros somoswe arenosotros estamos
vosotros soisyou arevosotros estáis
ellos sonthey areellos están
ellas sonthey areellas están
.
/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Ubobo.R.O. has just posted an image of a nice set of four stamps issued in 2011 by Portugal, celebrating centenaries. I take the opportunity to repeat it here, as it motivates us to learn some Portuguese.
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=82193&start=4218
.
.<br />Portugal, 2011, set of four stamps celebrating centenaries of institutions of higher learning (Mundifil 4060-4063} Perf 13 with Cruz de Cristo.  Printed by Joh Enschede.
.
Portugal, 2011, set of four stamps celebrating centenaries of institutions of higher learning (Mundifil 4060-4063} Perf 13 with Cruz de Cristo. Printed by Joh Enschede.
.
Two simple nouns — with grammatical gender masculine (m) and feminine (f):
o ano, os anosthe year/s (m) ends in -o
a casa, as casasthe colour/s (f) ends in -a

From the stamp inscriptions or their general descriptions:
o centenário, os centenáriosthe centenary/ies
o instituto, os institutosthe institute/s
a instituição, as instituiçõesthe institution/s
a universidade, as universidadesthe university/ies
Instituto SuperiorHigher Institute
economia e gestãoeconomics and management
do Porto, de Lisboaof Porto (m), of Lisbon (f)
100 anos Ensino Superior100 years of Higher Education
Centenários das Instituições de Ensino SuperiorCentenaries of Institutions of Higher Learning
______________________
.
Recall the earlier post which discussed how the English verb "to be" is covered by two separate verbs in Catalan, as well as several other Romance languages. The present tense conjugations of the two Catalan verbs were included there:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=184

The latest post included the present tense conjugations of the two corresponding Spanish/Castilian verbs.
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=196

Here are the present tense conjugations of the two corresponding Portuguese verbs.
.
serto beestar

eu souI ameu estou
tu ésyou aretu estás
ele éhe isele está
ela éshe isela está
nós somoswe arenós estamos
vós soisyou arevós estais
eles sãothey areeles estão
elas sãothey areelas estão
.
/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

This post begins with another correction :( In my previous post about Portuguese I should have said:

Two simple nouns — with grammatical gender masculine (m) and feminine (f):
o ano, os anosthe year/s (m) ends in -o
a casa, as casasthe house/s (f) ends in -a [Note: house, not colour!]

Some further simple nouns:
o mês, o mesesthe month/s
a semana, as semanasthe week/s
o dia, os diasthe day/s [Note: (m), but exceptionally, ends in -a.]
o verãothe summer
o outonothe autumn
o invernothe winter
a primaverathe spring

"Rules" for languages are essentially summaries of observations of usage, so it is to be expected that there will be exceptions, especially in some very frequently used words! The "rules" are helpful guides, with the amount of effort required of learners reduced just to paying special attention to the exceptions.

For Portuguese the "rule" that grammatically masculine nouns end in -o and grammatically feminine nouns end in -a is a helpful guide. An exception seen above is o diathe day. For nouns which do not end in -o or -a the grammatical gender is not easily covered by a simple "rule", so it is easiest to learn them with the appropriate definite article o or a ("the"), as with o mêsthe month. Here are a few more nouns needing special attention:

o som, os sonsthe sound/s. [Note spelling shift m -> n in plural.]
a noite, as noitesthe night/s
a cor, as coresthe colour/s
a mão, as mãosthe hand/s
.
__________________________
.
.<br />Portugal, 2011, Correio Escolar, set of three stamps,  (Mundifil 4162-4164) Perf 13 with Cruz de Cristo.
.
Portugal, 2011, Correio Escolar, set of three stamps, (Mundifil 4162-4164) Perf 13 with Cruz de Cristo.
.
Onde te leva um selo?Where does a stamp take you?
Correio escolarSchool mail

Evidently Portugal has issued annual Correio escolar sets in recent times. I am guessing these are an initiative to promote children's letter writing and/or stamp collecting. Can any Stampboarder please tell us more about Correio escolar?

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by srgboy »

RogerE wrote:
09 Jun 2020 20:01

Here are some specific details:
Tom Van Lint wrote: [Tom Van Lint lives in Flanders (1959-present)]

Nevertheless, the Flemish use many words (mainly in their dialects) that also come from French
(I personally never use those words) :

trottoir (VL), stoep (NL) : pavement
facteur (VL), postbode (NL) : postman
frein (VL), rem (NL) : brake
embrayage (VL), ontkoppeling (NL) : clutch
capot (VL), motorkap (NL) : hood (from a car)
ammortiseur (VL), schokdemper (NL) : shock-absorber
What is also funny is how some internationally known words are quite differently pronounced; the Dutch use the English pronounciation, where the Flemish stick to the French one:
camping : sounds like “kem-ping” (NL) or “kahm-ping” (VL)
caravan: sounds like “ker-rev-ven” (NL) or “kar-ah-vahn” (VL)
https://www.quora.com/Dialects-Whats-the-difference-between-Flemish-and-Dutch
.
/RogerE :D
Very interesting that in Indonesian (ID), trotoar (from VL trottoir) is the loaned word from the Dutch, and very few will have any ide what is a 'stoep'. And I don't think the Flemish colonized Indonesia :P

Some postal related words which are absorbed into Indonesian from Dutch:

Post Office - kantor pos (ID) - postkantoor (NL)
Seal - segel (ID) - zegel (NL) [Stamp though, is postzegel (NL) but prangko (ID) - from porto franco or postage paid by sender]
Postal money order - wesel pos (ID) - postwissel (NL)
perforation - perforasi (ID) - perforatie (NL)
Ink - tinta (ID) - tint (NL) - meaning shift but probably cognates to e.g. German 'Tinte'
to print - afdruk (ID) - afdrukken (NL) although in ID nowadays only used in the context of printing / developing film/photo

And yes ID also use brake: 'rem' like NL, clutch: kopling ('ontkoppeling' in NL), and bonnet/hood: kap (as taken from motorkap in NL)

Many Indonesian vocabulary ending "-i" or"-si" (e.g.:administras-i) also are known from the Dutch vocabulary influence "-ie" (e.g.:administrat-ie).

Sample on stamp for one such loanword, issued in 1985 celebrating 30 years of 'Bandung Asian-African Conference' (Konferensi Asia Afrika)

Image

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by Panterra »

MrSamoa wrote:
14 Jun 2020 22:17
There are two Samoas: American Samoa and (Western) Samoa. When the islands were partitioned in 1900, America took the eastern islands (with Pago Pago) and Germany took the western islands (with Apia). (Great Britain took Tonga.) After WWI, the League of Nations mandated the western island to be under New Zealand control until independence could be achieved. (That finally happened in 1961.)

. . .
Just a correction to Marty's remarks: Samoa finally achieved freedom from the hated Kiwis in 1962, not 1961.
Samoa 1962 Independence set.
Samoa 1962 Independence set.

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

One more post about Portuguese.

Let's look at a Portuguese postcard from the 1890's.
.
.<br />Portugal, 10 reis postcard: for destinations in Portugal and Spain; cds Aldegallega 24 Jan 1896
.
Portugal, 10 reis postcard: for destinations in Portugal and Spain; cds Aldegallega 24 Jan 1896
.
.<br />Imprinted 10 reis prepaid postage: Continente – continental (inland postage)
.
Imprinted 10 reis prepaid postage: Continente – continental (inland postage)
.
.<br />Postcard directive: The address only to be written on this side
.
Postcard directive: The address only to be written on this side
.
.
o bilhete, os bilhetesthe ticket/s, card/s
o bilhete postalthe postal card, postcard
o lado, os ladosthe side/s
a direcção, as direcçãosthe direction/s, address/es [Modern spelling: direção]
o endereço, os endereçosthe address/es
deste lado, daquele lado; o outro ladotthis side, that side; the other side
only
escreverto write
.
______________________________
.
Pronouncing Portuguese.

Notice that the images I show from this website have "blue arrows". On the website itself you can click on those buttons and hear a spoken version of the sound. :D
https://european-portuguese.info/
.
Screen Shot 2020-06-17 at 1.11.05 am.png
Screen Shot 2020-06-17 at 1.11.45 am.png
Screen Shot 2020-06-17 at 1.19.04 am.png
Screen Shot 2020-06-17 at 1.20.10 am.png
Screen Shot 2020-06-17 at 1.22.25 am.png
.
/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Thanks to srgboy and Panterra for their latest posts on this thread.

Languages reflect history is a useful maxim to keep in mind. The Bahasa Indonesia = Indonesian language clearly reflects the influence of Dutch from the colonial era, and srgboy's post gives us relevant examples of this. Similarly, the closely related Bahasa Melayu = Malay language reflects the influence of English from the colonial era. Again, the related Filipino/Tagalog = Philippino language reflects the influence of Spanish from the colonial era.

The following comment on the relationship of these languages is made by an Indonesian who says he is not a "language professional", but speaks from his personal experience of these languages. They reflect the extent to which the languages are readily undertood by someone whose mother tongue is Bahasa Indonesia.
.
Andry Siregar wrote: 1. Bahasa Malaysia with Bahasa Melayu Singapura = Identical Twin siblings
2. Bahasa Malaysia with Bahasa Melayu Brunei = Twin siblings
3. Bahasa Malaysia with Bahasa Indonesia = Siblings
4. Bahasa Indonesia & Bahasa Malaysia with Tagalog (Bahasa Filipina) = Cousins
https://www.quora.com/Do-Malaysians-and-Indonesians-understand-Tagalog

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Motivated by srgboy's post, let's learn some Indonesian.
.
.<br />Indonesia 20 Dec 1961: First Day Cover, <br /> 4th Social Day charity/semipostal stamps, set of three, fruit subjects.
.
Indonesia 20 Dec 1961: First Day Cover,
4th Social Day charity/semipostal stamps, set of three, fruit subjects.
.
.<br />Official Bulletin, describing the 4th Social Day issue.
.
Official Bulletin, describing the 4th Social Day issue.
.
A philatelic introduction to Indonesian

The official insert for the First Day Cover gives us an excellent sample of philatelic terms, as well as other basic vocabulary. The spelling using 'dj' and 'tj' reflects the influence of Dutch spelling and pronunciation; modern spelling has replaced those digraphs by 'j' (pronounced like 'j' in English "jar") and 'c' (pronounced like 'ch' in English "char").

djawatandepartment, service [Modern spelling: jawatan]
Djawatan Pos, Telegrap dan TeleponPost, Telegraph and Telephone Service
umumgeneral
pengumumanannouncement, bulletin
pengumuman philateliphilatelic announcement
prangkopostage stamp
amalcharity
buahfruit
buahbuahanfruits [A superscript 2 denotes reduplication, for plurals]
tanggaldate
penerbitanissue, emission
tanggal penerbitaldate of issue
hargecost, face value
gambarpicture, image
anas, manggis, rambutanpineapple, mangosteen, rambutan
warnacolour
ditjetakprinted [Modern spelling: dicetak]
tjetakanprinting (process) [Modern form: pencetakan]
dalam tiga warnain three colours
putihwhite
kertaspaper
tanpawithout
tandasign, mark
airwater [Pronounced: "ah-eer"]
kertas tanpa tanda airunwatermarked paper
matjammanner, way, method [Modern spelling: macam]
ukuransize
perforasiperforation
lukisanpainting
pelukispainter, artist
olehby
lukisan oleh...painting by...
dilukis oleh...painted by...
sampulcover, envelope
pertamafirst
sampul hari pertamafirst day cover
di Bandungin Bandung

Slogan around the pentagonal cachet on the cover:
Bantulah pekerdjaan sosialHelp (support) social work.
[Modern spelling: kerjawork (particular); pekerjaan work (general). Pronunciation: pə-'ker-jə-'an]

Inscription in centre of special cancel:
Hari Social ke IVFourth Social Day
empatfour [Pronunciation: 'əm-paht]
keempatfourth [Pronunciation: kə-'əm-paht].

Background:

Under the logo of Kementrian Pendidikan dan Kebudayaan, in 2017
Kebudayaan Indonesia wrote:Hari Sosial — Social Day or Hari Kesetiakawanan Sosial Nasional (HKSN) = National Social Solidarity Day is celebrated on 20 December every year as gratitude and respect for the success of all levels of Indonesian society in facing the threat of other nations who want to recolonize the nation.
mentriminister (government official)
kementrianministry
pendidikaneducation
budayaculture (specific)
kebudayaanculture (in general)
danand [mnemonic for English speakers: 'dan', 'and' are anagrams]
Kementrian Pendidikan dan KebudayaanMinistry of Education and Culture

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Let's learn something about the Māori language.

Formally, it is called te reo Māori [tɛ ˈɾɛ.ɔ ˈmaːɔɾi] — the Māori language. The macron (horizontal bar) over the 'a' indicates a long vowel. It is common in New Zealand usage, though less often seen in usages outside New Zealand.
Wikipedia wrote:Māori (/ˈmaʊri/; Māori pronunciation: [ˈmaːɔɾi]), also known as te reo ('the language'), is an Eastern Polynesian language spoken by the Māori people, the indigenous population of New Zealand. Closely related to Cook Islands Māori, Tuamotuan, and Tahitian, it gained recognition as one of New Zealand's official languages in 1987. The number of speakers of the language has declined sharply since 1945, but a Māori language revitalisation effort slowed the decline, and the language has experienced a revival, particularly since about 2015...

New Zealand has three official languages: English, Māori, and New Zealand Sign Language. Māori gained this status with the passing of the Māori Language Act 1987. Most government departments and agencies have bilingual names ... and places such as local government offices and public libraries display bilingual signs and use bilingual stationery. New Zealand Post recognises Māori place-names in postal addresses. ... Increasingly New Zealand is referred to by the Māori name Aotearoa ("land of the long white cloud"), though originally this referred only to the North Island
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_language

A very recent stamp issue by NZPost:
This year, in celebration of Matariki, we highlight stories associated with Ngā Hau e Whā or The Four Winds. The four winds are Te Hau Rāwhiti (the easterly), Te Hau-ā-uru (the westerly), Te Hau Tonga (the southerly) and Te Hau Raki (the northerly). Hau can mean air, breath, aura, but it is best known as wind.
https://stamps.nzpost.co.nz/new-zealand/2020/nga-hau-e-wha-four-winds
.
.<br />Ngā Hau e Whā — The Four Winds
.
Ngā Hau e Whā — The Four Winds
.
.<br />New Zealand 2020: set of four stamps<br />Ngā Hau e Whā — The Four Winds
.
New Zealand 2020: set of four stamps
Ngā Hau e Whā — The Four Winds
.
.<br />Minisheet on First Day Cover<br />Ngā Hau e Whā — The Four Winds
.
Minisheet on First Day Cover
Ngā Hau e Whā — The Four Winds
.
Intimate knowledge of the winds and the stars was essential to the peoples of the South Pacific, who navigated the ocean with great skill and endurance. They remain key elements in their cultures.
Matariki is the Māori name for the Pleaides star cluster [the "Seven Sisters"]. It rises during Pipiri (June/July) and marks the beginning of the Māori new year. The word is an abbreviation of Ngā Mata o te Ariki (Eyes of God) in reference to Tāwhirimātea, god of the wind and weather...
.
.<br />Te Iwa o Matariki — Nine stars of the Pleiades
.
Te Iwa o Matariki — Nine stars of the Pleiades
.
Matariki – signifies reflection, hope and our connection to the environment
Pōhutukawa – connects with those who have passed on
Waitī – ties to bodies of fresh water and the food within it
Waitā – ties to the ocean and the food within it
Waipuna-ā-rangi – associated with the rain
Tupuānuku – is for food that grows within the soil
Tupuārangi – is for food that grows up in the trees
Ururangi – is the star associated with the winds
Hiwa-i-te-rangi – the youngest, is the wishing star that also ties into our aspirations for the coming year
https://tinyurl.com/y9x5cjns

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by Stewie1980 »

RogerE wrote:
09 Jun 2020 20:01
Tom Van Lint wrote:
[Tom Van Lint lives in Flanders (1959-present)]

Nevertheless, the Flemish use many words (mainly in their dialects) that also come from French
(I personally never use those words) :

trottoir (VL), stoep (NL) : pavement
srgboy wrote:
17 Jun 2020 19:08
Very interesting that in Indonesian (ID), trotoar (from VL trottoir) is the loaned word from the Dutch, and very few will have any ide what is a 'stoep'. And I don't think the Flemish colonized Indonesia :P
In Dutch we use the word 'trottoir' too. 'Stoep' is only used in spoken language.

For many things the Dutch language has two words. One word used in spoken language and one word used in official Standard Dutch as used in legal papers for example. In spoken language we call these words "dure woorden" (= "expensive words") because in the old days only politicians, rich people and aristocrats spoke with these words.

In the example above the word 'trottoir' is the "expensive" word.

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Thanks for your latest input Stewie1980 — another connection with the "real world", where everyday practice does not necessarily exactly match theoretical discourse. :D

The different levels of language, from formal to casual, are often described as registers of the language.
In sociolinguistics, a register is a variety of language used for a particular purpose or in a particular communicative situation. For example, when speaking officially or in a public setting, an English speaker may be more likely to follow prescriptive norms for formal usage than in a casual setting: for example by pronouncing words ending in -ing with a velar nasal instead of an alveolar nasal (e.g. "walking", not "walkin'"), choosing words that are considered more "formal" (such as father vs. dad, or child vs. kid), and refraining from using words considered nonstandard, such as ain't.

As with other types of language variation, there tends to be a spectrum of registers rather than a discrete set of obviously distinct varieties—numerous registers can be identified, with no clear boundaries between them. Discourse categorisation is a complex problem, and even in the general definition of "register" given above (language variation defined by use not user), there are cases where other kinds of language variation, such as regional or age dialect, overlap. Due to this complexity, scholarly consensus has not been reached for the definitions of terms such as "register", "field" or "tenor";
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_(sociolinguistics)

Perhaps Stewie1980 you can tell us whether there are any formal organisations which are regarded as guardians of "proper" Dutch.

In Australian English, the Macquarie Dictionary is regarded as an important standard. It includes various words regarded as slang (casual register), and every year it adds newly coined or popularised words not previously listed — but the process of doing so is rigorous, and involves quite a bit of scholarly evaluation and discussion.

In other settings there are organisations which endeavour to promote, protect, and in some cases make formal pronouncements about, "proper" language. One very formal organisation with this objective is the Académie Française, established by Cardinal Richelieu in 1635: it serves to this day as the guardian of "proper" French. Less formally, but still prestigious, is the government-backed Goethe-Institut, initiated in 1952: while not an official arbiter of "proper" German, nevertheless it does promote a widely recognised standard for the language. The terms Hochdeutsch and Niederdeutsch ("High German" and "Low German") correspond to levels of "properness" in German.

For Hebrew, a special need was recognised because the language had not been actively spoken for many centuries before being brought back to use as a primary language in recent times. To facilitate and manage the attendant challenges, building on the work of Eliezar Ben-Yehuda and other scholars, the Academy of the Hebrew Language (האקדמיה ללשון העברית) [ha-akademiah le-lashon ha-ivrit] was established in 1953. It is an official entity, "the Israeli body with legislated authority to study, guard, and guide the development of the Hebrew language".

At various times champions of the casual version of a language have succeeded in having it written and accorded greater status than previously. Afrikaans is a perfect example, recently discussed in this thread. Robert Burns's poetry did much to promote acceptance and popular use of Scots, especially in Scotland. As another example, NorwegianNynorsk was once regarded as a casual version of Danish.

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by cursus »

For Catalan, we have in Catalonia the "Institut d'Estudis Catalans" or Catalan Studies Institution ("IEC", for short), and symilar bodies in València, Andorra, l'Aguer and Balearic Islands. All coordinate into the Ramon Llull Institute, based in Barcelona and that takes its name from the XIII century Majorcan philosopher and churchman, Ramon Llull, considered the father of literary Catalan language. The normative dictionary is the "Diccionari de la Llengua Catalana" compiled by the IEC and regularly updated.
There's also a Catalan Grammar and some dictionaries that cover the linguistic wealth of Catalan.
I collect: Estonia 1990-1992 Postal History. Barcelona Postal History and postmarks. Catalan cinderellas. Botanical gardens. Ice creams on stamps. Used UK, Germany, Switzerland, Austria & Scandinavia.

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by Stewie1980 »

RogerE wrote:
18 Jun 2020 19:08
Perhaps Stewie1980 you can tell us whether there are any formal organisations which are regarded as guardians of "proper" Dutch.
We have the 'Nederlandse Taalunie' (Dutch Language Union) which governs the language issues since 1980.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Language_Union

They revised spelling in 1996 and 2006. I learned writting Dutch before 1996, so I still write many of the revised words in pre-1996 spelling. :D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_orthography

The spelling reforms of 1934 and 1947 made huge changes and introduced the Standard Dutch we still use today.

Image
Netherlands Anti-Tuberculosis stamp 1906

Amsterdamsche Vereeniging tot Bestrijding der Tuberculose
In modern Dutch this would be:
Amsterdamse Vereniging voor Bestrijding van Tuberculose
Amsterdam Accosiation to Control/Combat Tuberculosis

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by srgboy »

In Indonesia it's "Badan Pengembangan dan Pembinaan Bahasa" (Agency for Language Development and Training) - actually both Pengembangan and Pembinaan means 'development' just that Pembinaan is more in a sense of developing the people (education & training). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_and_Book_Development_Agency

Language being dynamic, Indonesian is in kind of a weird crossroad right now between Dutch and English influence, as increasingly technical educational material and references are being consumed in English, not to mention popular culture. Some are even still understood but have connotation as 'words for old people' and the younger ones used the English equivalent. Some examples are Laundry (EN) vs binatu (ID native) vs waserai (ID loan from NL wasserij), korting (ID from NL) vs diskon (ID from EN), and many more.

Some are equally popular in sometimes slightly different context e.g. rekening (account e.g bank) vs akun (account e.g email account). As you can see above it does depend on the field too.

A lot of terms in civil and automotive works are basically Dutch. Had a Belgian client struggle to utter the English word 'formwork' and I asked if he's referring to the 'bekisting'. Cue him speaking Dutch for 30 seconds before I stopped him because I don't understand Dutch :lol: .

My pet peeve is that sometimes the English loanwords are adapted in a nonsensical manner to those that really know English. Back to 'sidewalk / trottoir / trotoar'. Somehow the term 'pedestrian walkway / pedestrian path' got into people's consciousness but they cut it to just 'pedestrian'. So nowadays you will see notices and banners prohibiting motorcycles from parking on the pedestrian. D'oh!

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by nigelc »

As another example, Norwegian — Nynorsk was once regarded as a casual version of Danish.
Hello Roger,

I'm not sure about that comment although of course there have always many opinions on the language of others! :D

The language history of Norway is fairly complicated and has been set against changing political structures over recent centuries.

The three languages Norwegian, Swedish and Danish have emerged from a dialect continuum so there is a certain amount of mutual intelligibility between them, particularly between spoken Norwegian and Swedish.

During the 16th to early 19th centuries Norway and Denmark were united with the king and main centre of influence in Copenhagen in Denmark and Danish acting as the main written language.

By the nineteenth century, Norway was in personal union with Sweden but there was still a significant influence from Danish and movements arose to establish a standard written form of Norwegian.

Two standards were proposed:

- Riksmål - retaining more Danish influence, and

- Landsmål - based on more traditional western rural dialects with less Danish influence.

Both names essentially mean "national language", i.e. "state language" and "country language".

Riksmål evolved to become Bokmål (book language) and Landsmål evolved to become Nynorsk (new Norwegian).

Both standards continue, with Bokmål mostly used in eastern and northern Norway and Nynorsk in rural western Norway.

Despite this there is still a wide variation in the spoken dialects.

A clear example of the two language standards for stamp collectors is in the form of the country name on Norway's stamps:

- Norge (Norway) in Bokmål, and

- Noreg (Norway) in Nynorsk.

Here are some examples:
Norge_Noreg_300.jpg
Nigel

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by nigelc »

There is one other language term which I neglected to include in relation to Norway: dansk-norsk (or "Dano-Norwegian").

Here's a useful summary from Wikipedia:

"Dano-Norwegian (Danish and Norwegian: dansk-norsk) was a koiné that evolved among the urban elite in Norwegian cities during the later years of the union between the Kingdoms of Denmark and Norway (1536/1537–1814).

It is from this koiné that Riksmål and Bokmål developed.

Bokmål is now the most widely used written standard of contemporary Norwegian."


and in terms of the spoken language:

"During the period when Norway was in a union with Denmark, Norwegian writing died out and Danish became the language of the literate class in Norway.

At first Danish was used primarily in writing; later it came to be spoken on formal or official occasions; and by the time Norway's ties with Denmark were severed in 1814, a Dano-Norwegian vernacular often called the "cultivated everyday speech" had become the mother tongue of parts of the urban elite.

This new Dano-Norwegian koiné could be described as Danish with Norwegian pronunciation, some Norwegian vocabulary, and some minor grammatic differences from Danish."
Nigel

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Thank you cursus and Stewie1980 for telling us about how standard Catalan and standard Dutch are "managed".

Orthography

orthography • the correct/standard spelling of a language
(from Greek orthoscorrect, graphia - writing)

Spelling reforms are quite desirable — a serious spelling reform is long overdue for English. (For example, consider "birch", "church", "perch", "search" — we have to learn how to spell each of those words, knowing the sound is not enough to be able to write them correctly. The problem is in the other direction with "bough", "cough", "enough", "through" and "although" — knowing the spelling is not enough, we have to learn how to pronounce each of those words.)

I will now take a brief look at orthographic reforms that have applied to several languages, with a few comments on the changes, and resulting acceptance or resistance.

Dutch orthography

We now know that Dutch adopted serious spelling reforms four times in the post 100 years: 1934, 1947, 1996, 2006. Stewie1980 has indicated that his pre-1996 schooling has him still using pre-1996 spellings.

German orthography

German underwent serious spelling reform in 1901; a reform attempt in 1944 failed; the next reform was in 1996 (put into effect in 1998), becoming obligatory in 2006:
Eventually, in 1996, the set of German spelling rules was officially reformed. This lead to numerous protests and to Germany splitting into three big factions: Those who welcomed the reform, those who declined it, and others who wanted it to be modified. Moreover, there were many media and publishing houses beginning to use the grammatical rules they liked best instead of complying with the new standards. Finally, German spelling was a complete chaos, also because other German speaking countries, like Switzerland and Austria, had their own opinions and practices.

In the end, it took eight years of quarrels and modifications until the new German spelling became accepted and obligatory on August 1st, 2006.

https://www.learn-german-online.net/en/learning-german-resources/german-spelling-reform.htm

Russian orthography

Russian gradually underwent various ad hoc orthographic reforms from 1708, until major reforms were introduced in 1917 by the Assembly for Considering Simplification of the Orthography. Changes included unifying several adjectival and pronominal inflections, and replacing the letter ѣ (yat) with е, the letter ѳ (fita) with ф, and the letters і (i) and ѵ (ižica) with и.

French orthography

From the first edition (1694) of the Dictionnaire de l'Académie française, new editions have been instrumental in introducing French spelling reforms. The third (1740) and fourth (1762) editions were particularly important, changing the spelling of around half the lexicon. Many mute/silent consonants were omitted: this was when the change estreêtreto be occurred. The letters 'j' and 'v' were introduced to replace 'i' and 'u' where these served as consonants (as in classical Latin).

More recent changes were rather minor, until 1990 when some general rules and a list of modified words were promulgated. For example, hyphens are now added to numerals: trois cent vingt et untrois-cent-vingt-et-un (321). Also the tréma (English: diaeresis) indicating when the u is not silent in gu + vowel combinations is now placed on the u instead of on the following vowel: aiguëaigüe [ɛɡy] – acute (f).

Simplified Chinese (SC) and Traditional Chinese (TC)
.
简体中文 — 繁體中文
Jiǎntǐ zhōngwén — Fántǐ zhōngwén
Simplified Chinese Traditional Chinese
.
In 1949 a set of Simplified Chinese (SC) characters was introduced, with perceived advantages over Traditional Chinese (TC). Subsequently choice between the two character sets has become entwined with political alignments. SC is used in PRC = People's Republic of China, TC is used in Taiwan [ROC = Republic of China].
Janet Yang wrote:Today this (SC) set of Chinese characters is used in mainland China and by people of Chinese origin in Singapore. A relatively modern form of text, Simplified Chinese (SC) was created as a way to encourage literacy and was made official with the establishment of the People’s Republic of China in 1949. The characters have fewer strokes than Traditional Chinese (TC).

Although SC is simple, it continues to evolve. Even as recently as 2013, the Chinese government released an official List of Commonly Used Standardized Characters. This list contained 45 newly recognized standard characters (previously considered variant forms) and 226 characters simplified by analogy (most of which already were widely used).
https://www.vengaglobal.com/blog/differences-traditional-chinese-simplified-chinese-use/

A footnote on English spelling reform

In a 2010 opinion piece entitled Spelling Reform Efforts in English,
Richard Norquist wrote:The term spelling reform refers to any organized effort to simplify the system of English orthography.

Over the years, organizations such as the English Spelling Society have encouraged efforts to reform or "modernize" the conventions of English spelling, generally without success.

Examples and Observations
"[Noah] Webster proposed the removal of all silent letters and regularization of certain other common sounds. So, give would be giv, built would be bilt, speak would be speek, and key would be kee. Though these suggestions obviously didn't take hold, many of Webster's American English spellings did: colour → color, honour → honor, defence → defense, draught → draft, and plough → plow, to name a few."
(Kristin Denham and Anne Lobeck, Linguistics for Everyone: An Introduction. Wadsworth, 2010)
https://www.thoughtco.com/spelling-reform-english-1691987

Norquist's article goes on to discuss the Shavian alphabet (advocated by George Bernard Shaw as a phonetic script for English) and some observations on why spelling reform efforts for English fail. Interested viewers will enjoy the rest of that piece.

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by nigelc »

At various times champions of the casual version of a language have succeeded in having it written and accorded greater status than previously.
Robert Burns's poetry did much to promote acceptance and popular use of Scots, especially in Scotland.

Hello Roger,

Your other example is closer to home for me and gave me much to think about!

I agree there's an interesting comparison to be made for Scots with Norwegian but I'll not attempt that today.

I would though like to share a few thoughts on the history of Scots.

As a language, Scots arose in the south east of Scotland from the Old English of the kingdom of Northumbria.

The gradual unification of Scotland to form one kingdom, known in Gaelic as the "Rìoghachd na h-Alba", involved the bringing together of at least five different linguistic populations:

- Gaelic (the Goidelic language of the original "Scots" from northern Ireland, initially in the kingdom of Dalriada based in Argyll and then, after unification, more widely in north and central Scotland including the Scottish royal court).

- Cumbric (the Brittonic language of the kingdom of Strathclyde in south west Scotland)

- Pictish (probably also a Brittonic language spoken across Scottish Highlands and north east Scotland).

- Northumbrian Old English (the language of the kingdom of Northumbria that included much of south east Scotland)

- Norse (spoken for long periods in the Western and Northern Isles, and also at times in many parts of the west and north)

Other early influences included Latin and Norman French.

With the gradual unification of Scotland, Scottish Gaelic appears to have become the main language of government including the royal court, but over time this position was lost to Scots.

Scots was then also the main written language of the country with a robust literary tradition but this declined with the unification of the Scots and English thrones in 1603 when the King of Scots James VI moved with his court to London.

So, to what extent were/are Scots and English different languages?

They could well be described as closely-related sister languages or, in the days of the Stuart kings, as both representing one pluri-centric language.

By the time of Robert Burns, Scots would still have been the regular language of non-Gaelic speaking Scotland but writers and poets were more and more using standard English forms.

There have been several other literary revivals of Scots since then, particularly during the nineteenth century, and once again it is now getting attention and support.

Today, there seems to be a spectrum of usage from "Broad Scots" at one extreme to standard Scottish English at the other, with most Scots speaking a form closer to standard Scottish English but code switching to some extent depending on the context they find themselves in.
Nigel

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Ahhh, more helpful and relevant posts appeared while I was working on my latest post on orthography.
I continue to be very happy with the contributions of fellow Stampboarders to this thread. :D

Thanks to srgboy for telling us the name of the organisation charged with being the guardian of "proper" Indonesian, as well as adding some further details about language in everyday life.

Thanks also to nigelc for two posts about Norwegian — some helpful historical perspective, and some well-informed comments about distinctions by lineage and region. You have given a clearer specification of Bokmål and Nynorsk than I knew, so you have helped me understand Norwegian linguistic culture better. A gentle correction to the comment in my earlier post, much appreciated, thank you.
_______________
Ahh, and now there's another post from nigelc, while I was composing this one! Once again, much more detailed knowledge being offered about Scots and the other languages that neighboured and/or coexisted with it. Once again, my comparatively shallow knowledge of this linguistic culture is being improved and better informed thanks to your input. My efforts are not schemes, but as Robbie Burns observed, they gang aft a-gley ;)

/RogerE :D
Last edited by RogerE on 19 Jun 2020 03:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by nigelc »

Spelling reforms are quite desirable — a serious spelling reform is long overdue for English. (For example, consider "birch", "church", "perch", "search" — we have to learn how to spell each of those words, knowing the sound is not enough to be able to write them correctly.

I remember once at school seeing in an English schoolbook five words that supposedly had the same vowel sound but in my dialect they were all different!

For me, (1) "bird", (2) "church" and (3) "perch" & "search" have three different vowel sounds.

Dialects in UK English have an interesting pattern where in general the number of distinct vowel phonemes increases as you travel from south to north.
Nigel

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by Waffle »

ee bie gum lad you be rightly there.
I prefer to collect UK, British Commonwealth esp Pacific area ( not excluding West Indies/Canada ) and Western Europe. At the bottom of my zone of interest is Eastern Europe and communist countries.

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Some comments about dialects/regional pronunciation, motivated by nigelc's latest (‽) post [unless there's another incoming while I'm composing this one ;) ]
nigelc wrote:
19 Jun 2020 02:58
RogerE wrote:Spelling reforms are quite desirable — a serious spelling reform is long overdue for English. (For example, consider "birch", "church", "perch", "search" — we have to learn how to spell each of those words, knowing the sound is not enough to be able to write them correctly.

I remember once at school seeing in an English schoolbook five words that supposedly had the same vowel sound but in my dialect they were all different!

For me, (1) "bird" {I said "birch", but "bird" no doubt matches for sound}, (2) "church" and (3) "perch" & "search" have three different vowel sounds.

Dialects in UK English have an interesting pattern where in general the number of distinct vowel phonemes increases as you travel from south to north.
.
Remarks on "dialect"

We have seen some other posts on this thread indicating that "dialect" is regarded by some as a pejorative term, diminishing the respect or status accorded to some regional/localised forms of language. A fairly neutral definition of the term is given in the Cambridge Dictionary:
a form of a language that people speak in a particular part of a country, containing some different words and grammar, etc.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/dialect
This website [evidently via links to "Smart Thesaurus"] also produced an interesting variety of suggested related terms (some of which would widely be considered pejorative or condescending):
Ways of speaking
accented; accentuation; BBC English; breathe; brogue; cacoepy; cut glass; dialectal; flap; fluent; idiomatic; jawbreaker; lilt; pronunciation; Received Pronunciation; thickly; tongue-twister; unaccented; uptalk; vocally
Australian English

I regard myself as a speaker of Australian English.

According to Wikipedia, I speak a variety of English rather than a dialect of English. (That probably means Australia is too large to be accorded the status of a small region or part of a country. If we were much smaller — say, entirely confined to Tasmania ;) — would Australian English then be a dialect of English?)
Wikipedia wrote:Australian English (AuE; en-AU) is the set of varieties of the English language native to Australia. Although English has no official status in the Constitution, Australian English is the country's national and de facto official language as it is the first language of the majority of the population.

Australian English began to diverge from British English after the First Settlers, who set up the Colony of New South Wales, arrived in 1788. By 1820, their speech was recognised as being different from British English. Australian English arose from the intermingling of early settlers, who were from a great variety of mutually intelligible dialectal regions of Great Britain and Ireland, and quickly developed into a distinct variety of English which differs considerably from most other varieties of English in vocabulary, accent, pronunciation, register, grammar and spelling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_English

In fact, the regional variations in pronunciation and vocabulary in Australian English are very minor, and pass virtually unnoticed in everyday interactions. This is probably due to quality national radio and television broadcasting. In my childhood there was an analogue of "BBC English" which could be fairly described as "ABC English" (no doubt modelled on the BBC version). That has long since disappeared, and now speech in the media is indistinguishable from everyday speech. (Indeed, grammatical slips and stumbling over pronunciations are now as common in the media as in the public domain: e.g. "bought" is increasingly being used for "brought", one of my current peeves!)

So, my examples "birch", "church", "perch", "search" do rhyme in Australian English. :D
I must say that the finely pronounced vowel phonemes af northerly UK English speakers are pleasant to my ear, and I admire the distinctions they convey, though they are absent from Australian English.

One of our ABC radio presenters of Classic Music currently is Russell Torrence, a graduate of University of Nottingham, and his accent has all those fine vowel phonemes along with retroflex r — a pleasure to listen to!
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Russell Torrence, ABC Radio presenter
Russell Torrence, ABC Radio presenter
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One more story about dialects/accents

In my childhood there were many comedy programs on radio (television arrived later, and was expensive, in black-and-white, and only available in very large population centres for a long time). Most of the radio comedy shows featured British comedians, many of them Cockneys. Two decades later, when I was first spending time in the UK, I found it almost impossible to suppress a big grin whenever I was speaking with someone with a strong regional accent, especially if it sounded to me like Cockney — the unconscious association in my mind was that anyone speaking with such an accent was being funny! It was an embarrassing association that took some time for me to overcome...

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

This thread has included several posts about the alphabet/messaging system represented by maritime flags (ICS = International Code of Signals).
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=170

National and provincial/state flags are a familiar "language", conveying information about identity, asserting nationalism, or simply celebrating participation in some event or gathering. Today's Stampboards Quiz of the Day features a selection of National Flags, and challenges us to identify as many as we can
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=80434&start=9874
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.<br />Stampboards Quiz of the Day: 54 National Flags<br />How many can you identify?
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Stampboards Quiz of the Day: 54 National Flags
How many can you identify?
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Philatelically, national and provincial/state flags are the message-carriers on a huge number of stamps, but also on postcards and postal cancellations. To illustrate the point, here's a small chronological selection of items from Canada.
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.<br />Canada, 3 Dec 1896, Flag cancel on illustrated commercial cover, Langlois &amp; Co.
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Canada, 3 Dec 1896, Flag cancel on illustrated commercial cover, Langlois & Co.
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.<br />Canada, 20 Apr 1909, patriotic postcard with<br />embossed flag, PM Laurier, maple leaves and beaver
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Canada, 20 Apr 1909, patriotic postcard with
embossed flag, PM Laurier, maple leaves and beaver
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.<br />  Canada, 14 May 1937, flag cancel on commercial cover,
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Canada, 14 May 1937, flag cancel on commercial cover,
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.<br />Canada, 30 June 1965, First Day Cover, newly adopted Canadian flag
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Canada, 30 June 1965, First Day Cover, newly adopted Canadian flag
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.<br />Canada, 15 June 1979, First Day Cover, Provincial flag of Alberta
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Canada, 15 June 1979, First Day Cover, Provincial flag of Alberta
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.<br />Canada, 1979, sheetlet of 12 Provincial Flags
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Canada, 1979, sheetlet of 12 Provincial Flags
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.<br />Canada, 11 Jan 1991 [yymmdd format], First Day Cover, National Flag
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Canada, 11 Jan 1991 [yymmdd format], First Day Cover, National Flag
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.<br />Canada, 2013, minisheet, set of five stamps featuring National  Flag in various formats
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Canada, 2013, minisheet, set of five stamps featuring National Flag in various formats
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Primarily flags are used to convey a message of nationalism, with various levels of assertion, from quiet pride to aggressive intimidation ("flag waving"!), but other messages are also possible, including identification, affiliation, celebration and recognition. :D

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

On the Stampboards Quiz of the Day there has been a post suggesting one of the National Flags is the flag of "Holland". A fellow Stampboarder has correctly pointed out that "Holland" is not a country, and the flag actually is that of Luxembourg. Can you see which one it is?

Regarding the National Flag of the Netherlands I found an interesting semi-official internet site with the following information. It gives us insight into the "messages" normally associated with the flying of that flag, and some particularly interesting cultural comments on celebrations of graduation from school. :D
https://www.netherlands-tourism.com/flag-of-the-netherlands/
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Netherlands Tourism wrote:The flag of the Netherlands consists of three horizontal striped colors: red, white and blue. These have been the official colours since 19 February 1937 when Queen Wilhelmina made the royal decree to make these the official colours. The flag stands for the unity and independence of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. There is an official flag instruction of the Dutch government for government related institutions that makes clear when the flag should be raised and how (for example half-mast or full). The Dutch flag is often confused with the French flag which has exactly the same colours but instead of horizontal [the French flag] is vertical.
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.<br />Netherlands National Flag
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Netherlands National Flag
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While in other countries it is quite common to use the country flag often and in all kinds of forms, like stickers on your car or backpack, this is not so common in The Netherlands. Use of the flag on clothing or other items is often interpreted as a connection to racism and extreme right wing ideas. Although this is of course not the case in an event of a national or international sports event where local sports fans will wear the colours of the flag (in addition to the orange national colour).
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.<br />Netherlands National Flag — celebrating school graduation
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Netherlands National Flag — celebrating school graduation
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The Dutch flag is not often prominently displayed on regular houses, however on Queensday or when the National Soccer Team plays in the European or World Cup many citizens put the flag on their house. Another reason to put the flag on their house is when one has graduated school; often also some books and a bookcase are hung on the flagpole.
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In 1972 the Netherlands issued a stamp commemorating the 400th anniversary of the flag. (I'm not sure how this accords with the 1937 decree of Queen Wilhelmina on the official status of the colours.)
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.<br />Netherlands, 1 Nov 1972, Nationsl Flag, two First Day Covers to Newcastle, Australia
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Netherlands, 1 Nov 1972, Nationsl Flag, two First Day Covers to Newcastle, Australia
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eerste dagfirst day
vanof
uitgifteissue
Nederlandse vlagNetherlands flag
Covers produced by
N.V.P.H. = Nederlandse Vereniging van PostzegelhandelarenDutch Association of Stamp Dealers [Founded 1928] https://nvph.nl/

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by nigelc »

For me, (1) "bird" {I said "birch", but "bird" no doubt matches for sound}, (2) "church" and (3) "perch" & "search" have three different vowel sounds.
Oops! Thanks Roger, I really shouldn't post so late at night! Yes, my comment also applies to "birch". :)
Nigel

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by nigelc »

RogerE wrote:
20 Jun 2020 16:59
Philatelically, national and provincial/state flags are the message-carriers on a huge number of stamps, but also on postcards and postal cancellations. To illustrate the point, here's a small chronological selection of items from Canada.
.
Image
Great post Roger with some lovely examples. :D

I've picked out this one because of its clear postmark where the designer has made limited use of the traditional code of "hatching", indicating heraldic colours with patterns of lines or dots.

In this case only the red field has been hatched but this has been done in the standard way with a pattern of vertical lines.

In the same way, horizontal lines would represent blue, an area of dots would represent yellow (or gold), diagonal lines from top left to bottom right would represent green and so on.
Nigel

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

nigelc wrote:
20 Jun 2020 21:16
For me, (1) "bird" {I said "birch", but "bird" no doubt matches for sound}, (2) "church" and (3) "perch" & "search" have three different vowel sounds.
Oops! Thanks Roger, I really shouldn't post so late at night! Yes, my comment also applies to "birch". :)
All fine, Nigel = nigelc, my late night posts are prone to typos and oversights, so I understand perfectly.
More to the point, any follow up comments on my remarks about dialect and Australian English would be welcome ;)

Here are some follow up comments of my own:

Australian English pronunciation

The Macquarie Dictionary Australian English phonetic renditions of some sample words:
birch /bɜtʃ/; church /tʃɜtʃ/; lurch /lɜtʃ/; perch /pɜtʃ/; search /sɜtʃ/.
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A website for IPA = International Phonetic Alphabet representation of Australian English pronunciation is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_English_phonology

The above examples of various spellings with the shared pronunciation /...ɜtʃ/ incidentally illustrate the non-rhotic character of Australian English.
Wikipedia wrote:Australian English (AuE) is a non-rhotic variety of English spoken by most native-born Australians. Phonologically, it is one of the most regionally homogeneous language varieties in the world. As with most dialects of English, it is distinguished primarily by its vowel phonology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_English_phonology
Wikipedia wrote:Rhoticity in English is the pronunciation of the historical rhotic consonant /r/ in all contexts by speakers of certain varieties of English. The presence or absence of rhoticity is one of the most prominent distinctions by which varieties of English can be classified. In rhotic varieties, the historical English /r/ sound is preserved in all pronunciation contexts. In non-rhotic varieties, speakers no longer pronounce /r/ in postvocalic environments — that is, when it is immediately after a vowel and not followed by another vowel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhoticity_in_English

Compare erg /ɜg/ with era /'ɪərə/, where the 'r' is pronounced in 'era' because of the following vowel (the "postvocalic environment").
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.<br />Australia, 2014, minisheet celebrating Banjo Patterson (1864–1941)<br />one of Australia's best loved literary heroes
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Australia, 2014, minisheet celebrating Banjo Patterson (1864–1941)
one of Australia's best loved literary heroes
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Bush ballads — the word 'bush' in this context has the Australian English meaning "the countryside in general, as opposed to towns" [Macquarie Dictionary].

/RogerE :D

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Another post sneaked in under my radar while I was composing my latest post... ;)
nigelc wrote:
20 Jun 2020 21:35
RogerE wrote:
20 Jun 2020 16:59
Philatelically, national and provincial/state flags are the message-carriers on a huge number of stamps, but also on postcards and postal cancellations. To illustrate the point, here's a small chronological selection of items from Canada.
.
Image
Great post Roger with some lovely examples. :D

I've picked out this one because of its clear postmark where the designer has made limited use of the traditional code of "hatching", indicating heraldic colours with patterns of lines or dots.

In this case only the red field has been hatched but this has been done in the standard way with a pattern of vertical lines.

In the same way, horizontal lines would represent blue, an area of dots would represent yellow (or gold), diagonal lines from top left to bottom right would represent green and so on.
.
Thanks Nigel = nigelc, I wasn't properly aware of the monochrome hatching conventions to represent various colours. Very interesting extra information, as always. :D

/RogerE

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Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

I need to tweak my recent post about Australian English.
RogerE wrote:
21 Jun 2020 01:04
[Here are] Macquarie Dictionary Australian English phonetic renditions of some sample words:
birch /bɜtʃ/; church /tʃɜtʃ/; lurch /lɜtʃ/; perch /pɜtʃ/; search /sɜtʃ/.
I intended (but forgot!) to include the definition of rhotic consonants:
Wikipedia wrote:In phonetics, rhotic consonants, or "R-like" sounds, are liquid consonants that are traditionally represented orthographically by symbols derived from the Greek letter rho [Ρ, ρ], including ⟨R⟩, ⟨r⟩ in the Latin script and ⟨Р⟩, ⟨p⟩ in the Cyrillic script. They are transcribed in the International Phonetic Alphabet by upper- or lower-case variants of Roman ⟨R⟩, ⟨r⟩:
r, ɾ, ɹ, ɻ, ʀ, ʁ, ɽ, ɺ
Some languages have rhotic and non-rhotic varieties, which differ in the incidence of rhotic consonants. In non-rhotic accents of English, 'r' is not pronounced unless it is followed directly by a vowel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotic_consonant

This now better introduces the following:
Wikipedia wrote:Rhoticity in English is the pronunciation of the historical rhotic consonant /r/ in all contexts by speakers of certain varieties of English. The presence or absence of rhoticity is one of the most prominent distinctions by which varieties of English can be classified. In rhotic varieties, the historical English /r/ sound is preserved in all pronunciation contexts. In non-rhotic varieties, speakers no longer pronounce /r/ in postvocalic environments — that is, when it is immediately after a vowel and not followed by another vowel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhoticity_in_English

Compare erg /ɜg/ with era /'ɪərə/, where the 'r' is pronounced in 'era' because of the following vowel.

At this point I made a mistaken remark, which should have been: In both "erg" and "era" the 'r' follows the vowel 'e' (that is, it is "postvocalic") but only in the second case is 'r' followed by a vowel, so in Australian English it is only pronounced in the second case.

Footnote: In Australian English the "standard" pronunciation of "Australia" is /ɐs'treɪljə/ [remember that IPA /j/ is like 'y' in "yet"], but some speakers have a rhotic ending: /ɐs'treɪlɪər/. That speech style is regarded as "broader" Australian, and "less educated".

/RogerE

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