GB King Edward VIII stamps discussion - stamps and covers

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GB King Edward VIII stamps discussion - stamps and covers

Post by tallanent »

In my first real contribution to this board where I covered the GB King Edward VIII coronation "stamp" labels of 1937 see

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=9048

Glen posted an illustration of a cover with a label on the reverse.

Another important point on this cover falls within what we might be able to archive in this thread.

In private emails with Glen he reminded me of a few facts and I will restate these here ...

King Edward 8 had abdicated the throne in December 1936

He had just been stripped of his title "Royal Highness" on March 8 1937 - in the very first official act of his brother KGVI, who felt he did not deserve by his actions to marry a twice divorcee, to warrant that title any longer.

So, for this very brief period of March 8 1937 until May 9 1937 when the KGVI stamps were issued, the UK stamps bearing the image of the "Monarch" were the only ones in British history where that person was NOT at that time, styled "Royal Highness"
it would appear that King Edward 8 stamps used during this period are less common than any other period of use.

First day covers and covers dated on the abdication date turn up - as do 10 May cover showing the three Kings (George 5, Edward 8 and George 6) as do Coronation day covers (again showing the 3 Kings) dated the 13 May 1937 - but this period in between seems to be a bit of a void - probably as the public were a bit miffed that he chose this woman over their country.

So the idea here is to record the stamps of King Edward 8 used between the 8 March and the 9 May 1937

This may give us an idea of the quantity and quality of those that exist and at the same time, with these being regarded as cheap covers may enable some finds by members here (or they may already have a few and have not seen them for what they are) ..

Before I dig out my book to see what I have lurking I would like to request that Glen post the image of the cover in question onto this thread as well and if there is anything I have left out in the text above - if he could put it right ..

ALLAN

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Post by ozstamps »

Allan - yes Wikipedia gave us that little gem ... that the UK stamps in use for 2 months months depicted a Royal Highness and his Royal Crown - but who had just been stripped of it!!


This cover is VERY late use of the KE8 stamps of course as the KGVI issues (May 10) were issued 2 weeks after the letter reached India.

KEVII had in fact abdicated the throne in December 1936, and at the time of this letter being posted (April 10) was not King, and in fact he had just been stripped of his title "Royal Highness" on March 8 1937 - in the very first official act of his brother KGVI, who felt he did not deserve by his actions to marry a twice divorcee, to warrant that title any longer. 8)

So, for this very brief period of March 8 1937 until May 9 1937 when the KGVI stamps were issued, the UK stamps bearing the image of the "Monarch" were the only ones in British history where that person was NOT at that time, styled "Royal Highness"! This cover was mailed in that brief period.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_VI_of_the_United_Kingdom
Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_VI_of_the_United_Kingdom

The beginning of George VI's reign was taken up by questions surrounding his predecessor and brother, whose titles, style and position were uncertain.

He had been introduced as "His Royal Highness Prince Edward" for the Abdication broadcast,[27] but George VI felt that by abdicating and renouncing the succession Edward had lost the right to bear Royal titles, including "Royal Highness".[28]

In settling the issue, George's first act as King was to confer upon his brother the title HRH The Duke of Windsor, but the Letters Patent creating the dukedom prevented any wife or children from bearing royal styles.

George VI was also forced to buy the royal residences of Balmoral Castle and Sandringham House from Prince Edward, as these were private properties and did not pass to George VI on his accession.[29] Three days after his accession, on his 41st birthday, he invested his wife, the new Queen, with the Order of the Garter.[30]

George VI's coronation took place on 12 May 1937, the previously intended date of Edward's coronation.
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Post by tallanent »

Another one to India

This cover has been split and opened out to show the front and rear.

The cover has 6 pence in stamps affixed, 4 pence on the front (4 x 1d red) and 2 pence on the rear (2 pairs of the 1/2d green).

The cover was posted prior to the period covered by this thread - on the 28 February 1937 as shown by the Windsor machine mark.

It arrived in India where their date stamp was applied on the rear (cancelling only one of the 4 stamps) and this is dated 19 March 1937.
Image
After starting the thread - I am just glad that I found one ...

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Post by pertinax »

He had just been stripped of his title "Royal Highness" on March 8 1937 - in the very first official act of his brother KGVI, who felt he did not deserve by his actions to marry a twice divorcee, to warrant that title any longer.

So, for this very brief period of March 8 1937 until May 9 1937 when the KGVI stamps were issued, the UK stamps bearing the image of the "Monarch" were the only ones in British history where that person was NOT at that time, styled "Royal Highness"



The problem with all this is that KGVI had absolutely no power at all to strip Edward of the right to HRH.

The people who are so entitled are set out in the Letters Patent of George V issued in 1917.

Only an Act of Parliament can change this, no matter how important the Monarch might think his or her opinion is.

Those who are entitled to HRH are the following IIRC:

1. Children of a monarch
2. Grandchildren of a monarch in the male line (eg Charles', Andrew's and Edward's offspring, but not Anne's)
3. Wives of any males above, and
4. The first son, of the first son, of the Prince of Wales (ie the monarch's great-grandchild eventual heir apparent).

Note that it is children of a monarch, not of the monarch, and as such Edward, as a child of KGV, was entitled to HRH whether his brother thought so or not. This could only be changed by Act of Parliament.

For the same reason, whether anyone liked it or not, Wallis Simpson was legally entitled to the HRH style after marriage to Edward.

And for the exact same reason, regardless of Edward and Sophie's desire for their children not to be HRH, legally that's what they are whether their parents want it or not.

Scott

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Post by GlenStephens »

ozstamps wrote:
In settling the issue, George's first act as King was to confer upon his brother the title HRH The Duke of Windsor, but the Letters Patent creating the dukedom prevented any wife or children from bearing royal styles.
Pertinax - also from Wikipediia .. FWIW!

Any highighting is mine.


Letters patent are a type of legal instrument in the form of an open letter issued by a monarch or government, granting an office, right, monopoly, title, or status to a person or to some entity such as a corporation. The opposite of letters patent (Lat. litterae patentes) is letters close (Lat. litterae clausae), which are personal in nature and sealed so that only the recipient can read their contents. Due to the Latin idiom involved, a single document is not a "letter patent" but still "letters patent."

Letters patent often start with a salutation such as "To all to whom these presents shall come Greeting" or "To all to whom these presents shall come or whom the same may in any way concern, GREETING:" or even just "To all and singular, greeting." However, a document starting with such a clause may merely be a deed poll. Letters patent can be used for the granting of city status or coats of arms, for the creation of corporations, or by a monarch to create an office. They are also common in printed diplomas and academic degrees from educational institutions.

In the United Kingdom and some Commonwealth realms (where letters patent may be issued by the Governor-General), letters patent are issued under the Royal Prerogative and constitute a rare, if significant, form of legislation without the consent of Parliament. Letters patent may also be used to grant royal assent to acts of Parliament.

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Post by pertinax »

I was just reading that Wiki entry too, which covers them in general.

In this case British law is concerned and only an Act of the British Parliament can alter an issued Letter Patent. Not only can one not be changed by another monarch, but even the original issuing monarch has no power to do so!

As to
but the Letters Patent creating the dukedom prevented any wife or children from bearing royal styles.
This was all very well, but did not change the fact that she was still entitled under the 1917 Letter patent of KGV.

Scott

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Post by tallanent »

Right - lets see if I have this right

20 January 1936 - King George 5 dies and his son becomes King Edward 8

From this date to the 1 September 1936 the stamps of King George 5 are still standard use

1 September 1936 - ½d green, 1½d brown and 2½d blue stamps issued showing Edward 8

14 September 1936 - 1d red showing Edward 8 issued

10 December 1936 - Edward abdicates

11 December 1936 - Albert (the younger brother) becomes King George 6

8 March 1937 - George 6 strips Edward of HRH title - but this must have been unofficial due to the letters patent of 1917 noted above

10 May 1937 - first King George 6 stamps issued

12 May 1937 Coronation

After this Edward created HRH Duke of Windsor

This would seem to be a bit of a face saving exercise given the 8 March 1937 comments.

With regards to the GB postage stamps of this period - prior to 1 September 1936 it would be George 5 (or earlier) stamps.

From 1 September to the abdication on the 10 December 1936 I would expect to see greater use of the Edward stamps and a decline in use of the George 5 stamps as stocks were replaced one with the other.

This should have continued after the abdication - but public opinion would also play a part and the use of the Edward issues seems to decline until 10 May 1937 and after - at which point we get three kings covers, mixed frankings of the kings etc.

The use from the 11 December onwards seems to get scarcer as time goes on and by the time we get to 8 March 1937 they seem to be very thin on the ground. (This from observations of just what I have in front of me - which is not a vast holding).

Given that this thread would now seem to be incorrect in certain points - I think that it may be best to lock this and re-start covering the period from the 10 December 1936 to the 10 May 1937 where covers could be shown for a given date within this period with either Edward stamps or the earlier issues used in preferance.

I will wait for comments regarding this as this is a decission for the mod team ..

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Post by ozstamps »

Tallanent .. well stampboards policy is not to close threads just because someone THINKS there might be a minor error of fact somewhere or other in them.

Pertinax might well be a UK trained British Constitutional Lawyer, or a professor on British Royal Heredity. But I personally doubt it. ;)

He is perfectly entitled to his view KGVI did not act, or should not have acted as the reference above says he did. However I am not so sure that is set in stone as a fact. :D

What we DO know is that KE8 December 10 cancelled "Abdication Day" covers were certainly created:
Image

Odd things occurred in that era with stamps.

As I have posted before in my columns, NO state here issued letter rate stamps depicting KEVII!

The ONLY two stamps were these two:

Image

WA issued some NEW design stamps depicting QV, five years after she died.

Curiously, despite Queen Victoria dying in January 1901, nearly all stamps on sale across Australia until the Kangaroo series was issued in 1913 featured her image - which itself was over 70 years old. I have NEVER understood why the next 2 monarchs were not depicted on the letter-rate stamps.

A person licking a 1d or 2d Queen Victoria stamp onto every letter they mailed for 12 years after she had died, as there was no other design choice, seems incredibly bizarre. If you lived in Victoria or Queensland or South Australia, that was your only option.

King Edward VII's Coronation was 9th August 1902. Other than these £1 and £2 high values above, he was not depicted on any other State's postage stamps.

As is generally known, Australia became a 'Commonwealth' on January 1, 1901 - the month Queen Victoria died. For postal arrangements, the amalgamation of the six different state Post and Telegraph services was required. This occurred on March 1, 1901.

That date can be regarded as the date after which any stamps issued, were done so by the Australian Commonwealth Postmaster-General's Department.

However, the Post and Telegraph Act 1901 was not enacted into law until November 1, 1901. Interestingly enough Colonial stamps were never demonetised, and most continued to be valid for use (in any State) after 1901 - indeed were fully legal on any mail until 1968. Many collectors and dealers used them for normal mail to other collectors as low values were very inexpensive.

This stamp below is an AUSTRALIAN high value - just as much as a £1 Kangaroo is. Yet it was FIRST issued about 2 years AFTER the Queen died!
Image

And getting back to the UK KE8 issues, it does seem VERY likely he was not officially regarded as "Royal Highness" when the cover to India above was mailed. :D
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Post by tallanent »

ozstamps wrote:Tallanent .. well stampboards policy is not to close threads just because someone THINKS there might be a minor error of fact somewhere or other in them.


Fair enough ... just thinking out load ..

I will now see what else I can find in the March to May period

ALLAN
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Post by ozstamps »

And whilst Pertinex may not be a UK trained British Constitutional Lawyer, he is near unbeatable for plating Penny Blacks and other early GB. ;)

Glen

---------------------

Now back vaguely to topic. :D

Many might not realise that when the Queen Mother died, the hitherto secret documents about the abdication were released.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/revealed-at-l ... 07077.html

It seems the Queen Mother (KGVI wife) and Queen Mary hated Wallis Simpson.

They said in part, and any highlighting is mine:

Secret government papers released today at the Public Record Office in Kew reveal a web of intrigue and deceit by state and monarchy that has remained hidden for 66 years.

It ranges from Special Branch surveillance of Mrs Simpson's sex life to the direct intervention of the late Queen Mother in ensuring Edward and his wife would be frozen out of royal circles for life.

The abdication papers, which were kept from public view until the Queen Mother's death last year, show that Edward VIII tried to outmanoeuvre the Government and hold on to his crown with a direct appeal to the British people.

But the dislike of the Royal Family's senior females, including the Queen Mother, for the Duchess is made clear in a 1938 letter from the new King, George VI, to Chamberlain - by then Prime Minister - about proposals for his brother to visit Britain. George wrote: "I think you know that neither the Queen or Queen Mary [his mother] have any desire to meet the Duchess of Windsor."

The split was so final that George could not even bring himself to reveal it to Edward. He told Chamberlain: "Perhaps my brother would take this decision in a more friendly manner from you than me."

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Post by Jack »

Image

23 April 1937 Nottingham Registered oval mark, further Nottingham cds (like the front--Melton Road West Bradford)and 3 from Canada. Bit messy but I like it.
Last edited by Jack on 19 Dec 2008 21:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by tallanent »

Jack

Very nice cover - just a shame the registered label is missing at the top left - but a nice selection of marks that I think add to the appeal of the item
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Post by tallanent »


Block of 4


A block of 4 of the 2 1/2d blue with a Birmingham parcels cancellation dated the 21 Apr 1937
Image
The stamps are perfins and from the back it can be seen that this has been applied in a rather strange manner ..
Image
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Post by admin »

I bought this in an estate from a wealthy grazier ordering the KEVIII stamps from a general farm agent, who needed to cable their London Branch to get them, which has the invoice attached.

Attached was a thick WAD of the stamps in sets, all stuck together via humidity, and in Plate Number strips 4 in the main - as per photo below.

The invoice refers to 24 "sheets" of 4 each, which clearly means 24 STRIPS of 4, as cost was only £1 or so. The full sheet of ½d referred to is folded up.

What a shame.

My rough guess is there were about 50 sets of 4 here. However that is a conservative guess .. it may well have been the full 96 sets 4 as per invoice.
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Image

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Post by tallanent »

Another Block of 4

A block of the penny in red dated the 19 April 1937
used at Chipping Sodbury - Bristol
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Post by malcolm197 »

Going back to the constitutional issue, I would have thought that the act of abdication also abrogated all priviledges due to the monarch over and above those purely due to the monarch in person - as the person actively denounces all his roles,priviledges and duties as a person in line for the throne - it is not merely a matter of "skipping" your place in line!!

As far as a personal appeal to the people is concerned KE8 had a sufficient sense of duty not to go down that road ( much as his wife might have liked to ).

It is also not beyond the bounds of possibility that had he refused to go he may have been impeached - and this would have threatened the monarchy far more than the antics of the present Royal Family.

With the benefit of hindsight it is possible to extrapolate the abdication crisis was as much about the "unsuitability" of the character of Mrs. Simpson to be Queen - and the divorce issue was a convenient peg on which to hang the hat. Had she been a different person no doubt some accommodation might have been arrived at.

That she was a stronger character than E8 is not in doubt - and with some highly unpopular mannerisms and questionable opinions. The thought of her having influence on the way the King conducted his business might have given many ( and not just the establishment ) the heebie-jeebies.

The thought of that particular lady wearing the Royal Trousers does not bear thinking about. Modern European history may well have been totally different.

The late Queen Mother was much agrieved by the whole matter as KG6 was not a well man, and it is commonly believed that his early death was as a direct result of the heavy responsibility placed on him when it was patently obvious that his physical stamina was not up to it.

Malcolm

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Post by Raz »

What an interesting thread. While I feel I am in no way qualified to comment on the covers and stamp periods and letters patent, there has been much history revisited in recent times about the abdication,much of it probably due to the release of the Official papers as Glen mentioned.

However the mood of the British public at the time is well documented.

They protested that KE8 should be allowed to remain and marry whom he wished. His tour of the Welsh coalfields was met by many well-wishers who thought he was one of them, he had seen the horrors of war,his brother was in the navy but was ill and convalesced a lot. WWII changed these attitudes to both sovereigns. :? :( :idea:

There is much opinion that Baldwin forced the abdication by falsifying the "opinion of the Dominions", and manoeuvring KE8 into asking for "advice" so that Baldwin could threaten an election based solely on the King's choice of wife.

Anyone interested in the history could start with the Standard version,'The Reign & Abdication of Edward V111', by Michael Bloch,1990. The best part of this book is the cover,which has giant reproductions of the stamps. The latest history is covered best by 'The Peoples King, The true story of the Abdication', by Susan Williams,2003.

There is also much additional history given in 'War of the Windsors', by Picknett, Prince and Prior, 2002. This book has revelations that were uncovered whilst doing research for their book "Double Standards-The Rudolf Hess Cover-up".

To top off the history of the period one must read 'The Ripper & the Royals' by Melvyn Fairclough. The main theory may be ridiculed, but chapter 10-"Abdication", has some very pertinent facts-one being that Ke8 married Mrs Simpson on the anniversary of his fathers birthday, 3rd June 1937. :!: :!:

From memory only it was the disallowance of HRH(her Royal Highness)from the duchess of Windsor that was a sticking point. I have read Wikipedia and there are many facts that are patently (no pun intended)wrong and will not be corrected by sending the proper referenced corrections regarding this period.

The death of the Duke of Kent in 1942 has been airbrushed from history, and his role is described on pages 168-173 of 'War of the Windsors." :shock: :shock:

Wikipedia states thet Kiki Whitney -Preston died in a New York hotel,by falling out of a window (last time I looked). She was the one who led The Duke of Kent astray in 1928-9. In the 'Life and Death of Lord Erroll', good stuff for Tanganyika collectors, the author states on page 164 that Kiki
died of an overdose in her suite at Claridges, (probably helped along by the SOE (Special Operations Executive) - Churchill's wartime executioners. :twisted: :twisted:

I have read elsewhere of Wikipedias monitors ambivalence to changing entries that do not conform to the conservative politically correct view,no matter how well referenced.

To the hub of the argument about the Letters patent it states on page 183 of 'War of the Windsors';

"When George V1 drew up the letters patent to make Edward Duke of Windsor, they stated that he would be known as 'His Royal Highness the Duke of Windsor.' This gave the impression that he was bestowing both the dukedom and the HRH, whereas the latter was not his to bestow or withold."

The surrounding two pages tell the whole story.

In conclusion I think we can safely bestow upon Pertinax the title of Professor of Letters Patents, concerning royalty, as Princess Michael of Kent is in this day and age, A Catholic, divorced, and graced with HRH. :shock: :P
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Post by Jack »

I must admit I am thinking of a new collection, due to this thread, due to its mix of postal history and real history; a blend which has always appealed.

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Post by PeterS »

ozstamps wrote:
As I have posted before in my columns, NO state here issued letter rate stamps depicting KEVII!

WA issued some NEW design stamps depicting QV, five years after she died.

Curiously, despite Queen Victoria dying in January 1901, nearly all stamps on sale across Australia until the Kangaroo series was issued in 1913 featured her image - which itself was over 70 years old. I have NEVER understood why the next 2 monarchs were not depicted on the letter-rate stamps.

This stamp below is an AUSTRALIAN high value - just as much as a £1 Kangaroo is. Yet it was FIRST issued about 2 years AFTER the Queen died!

Image


.


Glen,

I suspect there were 2 reasons for not issuing letter rate stamps with Edward VII and George V by the States;

1. Expense - Financial matters were more complicated after Federation in 1901 and the States didn't want to spend unless they had to spend. If you have perfectly good printing plates and/or stocks of stamps, why go to the expense of creating new ones, which would (soon enough) be replaced by Commonwealth issues anyway?

2. Economic circumstances - related to the first reason, but different. There had been a major recession in the late 1890s and it still weighed on the minds of policymakers.

As to the 1 Pound WA. Since it was a new value, you might have expected it to be managed the way the VIC 1 and 2 pound were I guess.

However, the WA issue just reinforces my views above. The stamp was a straight copy of the existing VIC halfpenny stamp (with the obvious and necessary modifications). The stamp was printed in quite small quantities (far fewer than even the 1 pound First WMK Kangaroo) in only 2 printings and was not expected to have a terribly long life (lasted around 11 years in the end).
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Post by tallanent »

Jack wrote:I must admit I am thinking of a new collection, due to this thread, due to its mix of postal history and real history; a blend which has always appealed.
Can be quite an intresting little area of study ...

Also to take the reign as far as the Coronation (that never happened) - Gerald King produced at a much later date a set of 4 stamps for this event that showed Edward and Wallis.

Also ( but in the period in question) - as already noted - there was some support for the couple and one item produced was a photographi stamp type essay on highly glazed paper. This is in a grey-ish tone, perforated and gummed.

If pictures of these would be of use let me know and I will get to it.

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Post by Jack »

Thanks, thinking... not yet committed...but appreciate the offer...

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Post by pertinax »

I'll say just one more thing on this, since it's clear what my view is.

Malcolm,
I would have thought that the act of abdication also abrogated all priviledges due to the monarch
I assume you mean the act by Edward, not the Act of the Parliament enacting the abdication. It should be noted that Edwards letter of abdication itself has no legal standing whatsoever, under British law he was still King whether anyone liked it or not - until the Parliament passed the legislation that it did to enact the abdication.
it is not merely a matter of "skipping" your place in line!!
There is more involved, but as far as the HRH style, and as Raz has pointed, out one can be HRH and not be in the line of succession, due to either converting to catholism or marrying one. There is currently at least two people in this category.

Scott

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Post by ozstamps »

Raz wrote:
.... there has been much history revisited in recent times about the abdication,much of it probably due to the release of the Official papers as Glen mentioned.

However the mood of the british public at the time is well documented. They protested that KE8 should be allowed to remain and marry whom he wished.
As far as the GOVERNMENTS of the "Dominions" were concerned, (and presumably a majoirty of their citizens) the newly released papers show they wanted Edward off the throne it seems:

-------------

The Cabinet resolved to block the King's proposed speech on a constitutional ground, saying that any public statement from the monarch could only be made with the approval of ministers.

A report on the address, hurriedly written on 4 December, said that if Edward went ahead "constitutional monarchy would cease to exist". It added: "The constitutional duty of the King is to take no public action which is calculated to divide his subjects into opposing camps. It is manifest that the King's broadcast must have this effect."

Letters received from the dominions, the self-governing areas belonging to the British Empire, also revealed growing opposition, led by Australia and Canada. Only the Prime Minister of New Zealand wrote to express support for Edward remaining on the throne.

.

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Post by Raz »

I visited the wikipedia thread and it says that King George V1 wanted to strip KE8 of his HRH title,he in fact only stopped it passing on to KE8's future wife and progeny. :!: :!:

For the true state of the mood of the people, not just The Conservative PM's of the time,the whole idea is described fully in Susan Williams 2003 book "The Peoples King',in chapter 10, "Don't Abdicate." :( :(

A small part reads, "SMH,8-12-36,"The King's name was
cheered in theatres,cinemas and restaurants in all of the capital cities." :D :D

Referring to KE8,of course. Curtin,Leader of the opposition, refused to back Lyons. This chapter mentioned gives full detail of not only Aust, NZ, Canada,and South Africa,but also the Caribbean, Indian and Ceylon.

The history written in the intervening years has been all anti-Edward and Wallis, and is being revised now that colonialism and class distinctions are being revisited,and the truth is slowly surfacing.

It is a pity as I also have a cover dated 25th April,1937,bearing a green halfpennyKE8 and A brown penny-halfpenny KE8,posted from Windsor castle,as I mentioned on Tallenant's great thread on the Coronation labels.

The proof of this is on page236 of Williams book where it is explained if KE8 was not a HRH he ,as just plain old Duke of Windsor, could sit in the House of Lords. If, as Mr Edward Windsor, he could stand for the House of commons. By leaving him as HRH, he was being "politically neutered."

To everyone's great relief.I rest my case. :(

Glen, right or wrong,just how stuck together were those grazier's KE8 stamps. I'm drooling,

LOL to all Ron B. :P :P
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Post by GlenStephens »

Raz wrote:

Glen, right or wrong,just how stuck together were those
graziers KE8 stamps. I'm drooling, LOL to all Ron B. :P :P
Well stuck. :)

I sold them here for $40 or so the lot, and as I recall the buyer said there were all the 96 sets 4 in there in plate strips after he'd dried them all out flat in 'Desert Magic' books!!
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The Kings & their Titles.

Post by Raz »

The only title that pertains to the ruling monarch and is pertinent to stamps is the fact that the ruling monarch is 'His Majesty' or 'Her Majesty.' :o :o :o

Apparently when Edward 8th read his abdication speech he :shock: :shock: :shock:
lost 'His Majesty' title and King George 6th became the ruling monarch and His Majesty.

I base this not on any constitutional or historical knowledge, but on the fact that the date for the start of the reign,and the stamps,seems to be December 11th 1936. This is the date given in Stanley Gibbons 1955 catalogue.

:idea: :idea: :idea:

He may not be the constitutional monarch until coronated,but the 'Instrument of Abdication' seems to be enough to lose him his 'Majesty' title. Otherwise there'd be a gap every time a monarch dies-the usual method of passing the baton. :arrow: :arrow:
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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage time

Post by King Tut »

What a fabulous thread. It proves how something as simple as a stamp can lead to learning about history; I'll certainly be heading to the library this weekend to find out more about the KE VIII abdication / KGVI coronation.

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage time

Post by machin head »

Wars of the Windsors aside, i found an interesting story about the design of the Edward VIII stamp, a schoolboy Hubert Brown sent in his own designs to Harrisons for consideration but were refused by the Post office designers, his simple design was very similar to the controversial one subsequently adopted, using a profiled photograhic image on a plain background, but Edward VIII wanted to emphasise the differences between himself and his father, liked the design so that was that - but was the now established Machin QEII design inspired by Edward VIII one? Hubert Brown you wuz robbed ... :wink:
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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage time

Post by domiziano »

I recently came across a mini-series on the
web titled "EVIII: The Traitor King". :x
Does anyone have an opinion on its veracity?

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage time

Post by AKPhilately »

Hubert Brown you wuz robbed ...
Well, only initially, for Royal Mail had in the end to acknowledge that his design was the basis for the KE8 stamp, and Brown is nowadays mentioned as being the designer.
was the now established Machin QEII design inspired by Edward VIII one?
No, the Machin design was the eventual outcome of recreating the simplicity of the penny black. The KG6 stamps were partly made with the KG8 stamps in mind as KG6 had asked for stamps not as fuzzy as the KGV ones, but then again not as stark as the KE8 ones.

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage time

Post by PeterS »

domiziano wrote:I recently came across a mini-series on the
web titled "EVIII: The Traitor King". :x
Does anyone have an opinion on its veracity?
I presume it played on the visit to Hitler and the 'financial' dealings when he was sent off as a Governor in the West Indies during the war?

I think the evidence is pretty clear that he wasn't a traitor, just ill-advised in his actions. But then, he abrogated his greatest responsibility, for purely selfish personal reasons, when he abdicated. I submit that shows that Edward really only considered his own circumstances and needs, in any activity. Being selfish and foolish doesn't make him a traitor.
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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage

Post by CHzug1291 »

This cover has found a good place in this thread!

Image

Image

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage time

Post by ozstamps »

domiziano wrote:I recently came across a mini-series on the
web titled "EVIII: The Traitor King". :x
Does anyone have an opinion on its veracity?
It seems clear from what I have read, he had rather pro-Hitler leanings.

Not a brilliant or patriotic mind-set in War Time Britain. :idea:

However it also seems clear he had an IQ of about 10, so maybe he just said stupid things a lot of the time. :lol:

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage time

Post by machin head »

domiziano wrote:I recently came across a mini-series on the
web titled "EVIII: The Traitor King". :x
Does anyone have an opinion on its veracity?

This, like the whole Diana death issue, is something the Royal Family would like to be lost in the mists of time, but many aristocrats were courting Mr Hitler and his emmissaries in the 30's, even the Scouts, in hindsight they regret their hospitality and the dejected broken British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain is looked on today in a much kinder light in his seemingly hopeless but brave efforts to avoid war.

Only guessing of course, but could the "relationship" Edward had with the Nazis have severely influenced the course of the war? Was the whole Mrs Simpson thing a very convenient way of getting rid of him? we shall never know until the official records are released in 2036,by then will anybody really care?
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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage time

Post by phrag99 »

I was in a Charity shop recently and found some Gibbons Stamp Monthly for 1971 -2. I bought them for £3.

The August, 1972 edition (price 15p) contains a nice, but simple article, on the stamps of Edward VIII.

A point worth reiterating, I think, is that these stamps were amongst the first produced by the photogravure process, and this is why they look so "clean" compared to previous British issues.

Hubert Brown is given credit for the initial design (by submitting a pencil sketch of a bust of the king, severed at the neck).

Proofs were produced that had the denomination at the bottom of the stamp, in words, and postage and revenue at the sides.

At the time, the stamps were popular with the public, less so with critics.

The stamps can be found with inverted w/m, o/p "specimen" or "cancelled" and in booklets.

The article concludes with a list of non-British stamps bearing Edwards depiction - all 7 of them plus the use of British stamps used in "Morocco Agencies " and "Tangier".

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage time

Post by domiziano »

For what its worth, the EVIII: Traitor King series
is avaialble on YouTube parsed into ~9 minute segments.
There is a segment where he is sitting with his counselors
and discussing his news stamp issue...

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage time

Post by ScotsmanAbroad »

Following on from the design issues mentioned From the February 1937 copy of 'Stamp Lover' magazine, we can see what people at the time thought of the design of the stamps. This more photographic likeness was a radical change from what had gone before.

Under the title, "The Postage Stamps of King Edward VIII: Progression or Retrogression", Councillor R.F.W. Smeaton(?) presented a paper to the Brighton and Hove Philatelic Society on the 6th January 1937.
He carried out a survey of people in his office to find out their opinions. Because I don't have a high quality scan (magazine back in Scotland :roll: ), I have typed up the opinions given, below:

The Managing Clerk
Shading effects give an incomplete and washed-out effect
Word "Postage" unnecessary
Price of stamp obscure and out of place
Design of stamp compares unfavourably with predecessors and shades are inferior to those of preceding issues
Crown too small and should be over King's Head

A Senior Clerk ( a younger man's opinion?)
Colours good
Good clear-cut design and decided improvement on the muddled design of the stamps of King George V
A step in the right direction (towards) the stamps of the Victorian era

A Junior Clerk
Head clear and defined
Background shading effective
Head more lifelike than previously
Not so dull as previously, where decorative part was maybe as important as head itself.
Best stamps ever_______by Great Britain

Senior Typist
Nothing imposing about the stamps
Head gives effect of stamp bust and looks very odd
Absence of embellishment gives no dignity to the head
Too futuristic to be beautiful

The Charlady
The portrait of the King seems floating
Features too weak

You can see that the younger people thought that the stamps were a good change, and the older people surveyed didn't like them so much. That to me sums up a "generation gap" difference in opinion.

My best attempt at cleaning up the pics follow:
Last edited by ScotsmanAbroad on 11 Jun 2010 18:14, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage

Post by ScotsmanAbroad »

Image
It's good to shoot the breeze with like-minded people.

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage

Post by ScotsmanAbroad »

Image
It's good to shoot the breeze with like-minded people.

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage time

Post by domiziano »

Thank you for sharing this article. The EVIII issue
shouts modernity and I am not surprised that
more traditional people disliked the design. I
would no doubt have been appalled had i lived then.
EVIII may have been a bit dim but the stamps certainly
reflected his modernity.

I am tempted to suggest that the first GV issues
were a precuror to this modernization. That strange
tilt of the head. GB then relapsed
to a more traditional series.

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage

Post by asmodeus »

First Day of usage of the 1 Penny

Image
Truth is the daughter of time

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage time

Post by skilo54 »

phrag99 wrote:The article concludes with a list of non-British stamps bearing Edwards depiction - all 7 of them plus the use of British stamps used in "Morocco Agencies " and "Tangier".
If it is not too much trouble for you, could you possibly reproduce or scan this list? I would be very interested in seeing it :)

Thanks very much,

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage time

Post by phrag99 »

Sorry, scanner inoperative, so will type:
Canada:
SG 318, 5c Ottawa Conference
SG 338, 5c SJ
Newfoundland:
SG 83, ½c defin,
SG 119, 5c Coronation
SG 167, 4c Publicity issue
SG 212, 4c violet defin
SG 224, 4c carmine defin
NZ:
SG 611, British Monarchs
Sorry, that's 8, not 7. Will post article when son-in-law restores scanner over w/e

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage time

Post by skilo54 »

Thanks phrag99 8) , I appreciate the help!

Have a good one :)

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage

Post by GlenStephens »

machin head wrote:
Only guessing of course, but could the "relationship" Edward had with the Nazis have severely influenced the course of the war? Was the whole Mrs Simpson thing a very convenient way of getting rid of him? We shall never know until the official records are released in 2036, by then will anybody really care?
It would have changed things a LOT in the War had that froot loop been King is my guess.

You'd be using Euros now, for starters. :)

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage

Post by philcovex »

Interesting post. I have a few covers in my collection mailed in the March 8 - May 9, 1937 period.

1) A letter from Nottingham to Salzburg, Austria, April 29, 1937. The 2½d. stamp is paying the UPU surface letter rate.

Image

2) A registered letter from Bradford to Calcutta, March 18, 1937. 1½d. Imperial letter rate + 3d. registration fee.

Image

3) Printed paper rate to the United States. Coventry to Elgin, Ill., May 1, 1937. ½d. paying the printed matter rate.

Image

4) Air mail from Sutton Coldfield to Capetown, South Africa, April 2, 1937. 6d. paying the ½ ounce air mail rate.

Image


5) Tangier to South Bend, Indiana USA, March 18, 1937. Printed matter rate, ½d.

Image


6) An interesting air mail letter.

Image

The letter is addressed to Birmingham. The stamps (total 4d.) received a "London F.S. Paquebot" cancellation, April 9, 1937.

A possible explanation:

Air mail service was generally not provided for paquebot mail. In August 1935, the Post Office announced that correspondence to GB and posted on British ships on the high seas could be prepaid in British postage stamps for transmission from the following ports : Marseilles, Port Said, Bombay, Colombo, Penang, and Singapore.

This letter was probably transmitted from Marseilles (4d. air mail rate to France) and was cancelled on arrival at London. I do not know why the letter did not receive a French paquebot cancellation.

I look forward to seeing more Edward VIII covers.

For those interested in GB postal history (emphasis to date on George VI) please check out my blog:

https://greatbritainphilately.blogspot.com/

Many of you have already looked at my Canadian postal history blog:

https://postalhistorycorner.blogspot.com/

Thank you for all your comments.

Philcovex

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage

Post by Philcovers »

I have built up a large collection of Edward 8th material, not just stamps.

This I think is the complete basic stamp collection,
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage

Post by nigelc »

Nice display Chris! :D

I've posted this cover before but I thought you might like it because of its KEVIII link.

This is a crash cover from Imperial Airways G-ABFA, Scipio , a Short S.17 Kent (Scipio class) flying boat that crashed in Mirabella Bay in Crete on 22nd August 1936.

The cover was posted in Auckland on 7th August 1936 but the New Zealand stamp has floated off.

The KEVIII link is that the Returned Letter Section labels used to seal the cover after it was recovered have the KE and crown which I've not seen on other Post Office markings.

Image
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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage

Post by Philcovers »

Part of my Edward 8th collection is Coronation souvenirs that were produced for the coronation that never happened. I gave a LARGE collection of this stuff, and I used photos of a few of these items on my Fantasy stamps for the Coronation as if it HAD HAPPENED. The Post Office had planned a full set of commemoratives for the coronation for use for 12 months. These are the "stamps" I made to add to my fantasy!
Image

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Image

Image

I have books about him, by him, newspapers of the time, etc etc

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Re: GB King Edward 8 - Not Royal any more for a short usage

Post by philcovex »

From the Telegraph, June 6, 2001

"A SERIES of love letters from the future King Edward VIII to his first mistress, Freda Dudley Ward, which were auctioned yesterday, show that he wanted to abandon his royal duties long before the 1936 abdication crisis.

The letters, which fetched £34,500 at Bonhams & Brooks in London, portray the prince as vulnerable and lovelorn when away from Mrs Dudley Ward and show that he believed that the monarchy was outdated. "

This cover was mailed by the Prince of Wales to Mrs. Ward when the Prince was on a tour of Canada in 1919:

Image

The 4 ounce letter was mailed from Swift Current on October 3, 1919. Unfortunately I don't have its contents but I am very pleased to settle for the envelope. Here is the dues analysis:

Image

Philcovex

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