Stamp Perfins: it is not just 'OS' out there! Show us yours.

[leamphil]

Probably the most common perfin originating from Bristol is "BC" from the Bristol Corporation. As well as perfins they also used security overprints.

Corporation overprints

The perfins were in use across the Corporation:

Local Taxation Department

Building Planning

Surveyor

The Lord Mayor

Education

Health

Fire Brigade

[Pampstamp]

2/ Brown 2nd Watermark CM

2/Brown 2nd Watermark rear

Help needed with this Perfin.

Have no idea but a friend suggested that it maybe City Mutual Fire Insurance?
They where used until 1915 and he suggests its very scarce?

A very clean well centered example. If correct what would a CV be?

[leamphil]

Here are a few more perfins from Bristol:

HH & S Budgett & Co.

Baker Baker & Co.

Baker Baker & Co.

British Petroleum

British Steam Navigation Company

Whilst the "W.W / B" perfin does not begin with "B" I have it organised as a "B" because it is for the Bristol Waterworks Company. They had security overprints as well as perfins.

Bristol Waterworks overprints

Bristol Waterworks

Bristol Waterworks

Bristol Waterworks - contents

[Malaya]

Malaya Straits Settlements KGVI coconut definitives with "B S Co." which in Turnbull's catalogue of Malaya perfins is indicated as the suspected perfin of the Borneo-Sumatra Trading Co. or Borneo-Sumatra Handel Maatschappij (Borsumij). Does anyone have a confirmation of this, or perfins of this company from its branches in other territories?

It looks as if the perforator was a single-set hand-held device, and the perfins were punched one stamp at a time, even for the two blocks of 4 which could have been folded but were not.

A correction to the above - the perfin is not from Borsumij but from Bin Seng Co. Ltd. - thanks to Peter Cockburn for pointing this out to me. The correct identification by Gordon Peters is here: Peters, G. 2008. Singapore perfins 1927 & 1941. The Malayan Philatelist 49:21

[johnrcrow]

Pampstamp earlier post query about Perfin on Roo.

Here (in scan) is what I found in the Mathews Handbook of Australia Private Perfins.

I added ´holes`where they were not punched through.

No company associated with the Perfin.

Probably NOT City Mutual Fire Insurance? They have distinct Perfins involving CM and Co or CM and F

You also asked about value, not sure whether for stamp itself or the perfin.

Perfins not so expensive and a difficult market to predict. Uncommon perfins rated at A$ 2.50 in Mathews.

`Well centred` indicates you are talking about the stamp and I leave others to deal with that. Better ask on another thread.

John

[Pampstamp]

Hi John

I was pointed in the right direction with this perfin below- Apparently more exist

I think it is City Mutual Fire Insurance- Notice the postmark CE on the stamp!!

Being a scarce 2nd watermark in excellent condition normal CV is $350
with this Perfin who knows!!
.

Hi All.

I recently found this First watermark 5/- roo in a small tin with other roos aquired at a local auction. It has been a bit beaten up. (OK a lot beaten up). I have plated it at L55.

The main thing is the perfin CM. I can not find out anything about the perfin and was interested if anyone has any info that may be relevant about it.

.


Thanks
Harry64

CITY MUTUAL Fire Insurance Co. Used 1912-15. Rating is uncommon.

.

[johnrcrow]

Harry´s perfin on Roo from post on 2018!

Confusing posts and dates... anyway here is information.

Scan below.

John

[RogerE]

Lovely on-cover or on-document private perfin usages!
Thanks for sharing the images leamphil

/RogerE

[abctoo]

British India Perfin, Edward VII Half Anna Postage & Revenue stamp perforated with a "P.P." over "C" or "O." If a "C," perhaps it's for Calcutta? Anyone have anymore information?

Thanks,

Mike

[Hankmccoy]

Found these in some kiloware. National Unionist Association, or so I'm told.

[norvic]

I don't think so, not looking at Wikipedia and other searches for "National Unionist Association".

That was a pre-WWI association of various other political parties. There was also a Women's National Unionist Association, but again that was way before the QE2 era of these stamps.

[ViccyVFU]

Sloper records (book 2 page 239) show this :

National Union of Conservative and Unionist Associations


The Perfin Society have made them all available online ...

https://www.angelfire.com/pr/perfinsoc/library/Book2.html

[norvic]

Ok, so they were using an abbreviation of a 100-year old name that is no longer used. Sounds like the Conservatives.

[ViccyVFU]

Ok, so they were using an abbreviation of a 100-year old name that is no longer used. Sounds like the Conservatives.

Not quite .... they only changed their name in 1998, long after these pre-decimal stamps were used ...

The NCC was first established as the National Union of Conservative and Unionist Associations.

Its purpose was to oversee the running of the Party across the country, and plan Party Conferences. These functions remain largely the same today, and every year the President of the NCC continues to officially open the Party Conference.

Over time, the NUCUA's membership became more clearly defined, and has broadly been the same since the Party's set of extensive internal reforms following their defeat in the 1945 General Election.

In 1998, new Party leader William Hague carried out another extensive reform which led to the NUCUA's renaming as the National Conservative Convention.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Conservative_Convention

[norvic]

I was working from this wikipedia reference

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Unionist_Party

which has a section about 'fusion with the Conservatives'. Including this sentence:

Following the merger,[13] the party remained officially distinct in Scotland as the Unionist Party, though its MPs sat with the Conservatives and were part of the Conservative Party in all but name only; the Scottish party finally officially merged with its English counterpart in 1965.

Footnote 13 reads:

The united organisation was initially called the National Unionist Association of Conservative and Liberal Unionist Organisations. This was modified in 1917 to the National Union of Conservative and Unionist Associations."

That's the first reference on a Google search for the term.

So it wasn't apparently called solely the "National Unionist Association" although that may have been the short title by which it was commonly known. However, that changed in 1917 as stated, which is where I got my info from, rightly or wrongly.

[abctoo]

British India Perfin, Edward VII Half Anna Postage & Revenue stamp perforated with a "P.P." over "C" or "O." If a "C," perhaps it's for Calcutta? Anyone have anymore information?

Thanks,

Mike

The QEII 1/- with the NU/A perfin discussed in the posts immediately above, may now at least have the name of the perfin user from about 100 years ago identified (even if they are long gone). I checked the cite to the Perfin Society's Sloper Book 2 referenced in those posts to see if my British India perfin (P.P. / O or C) might have been used in Britain. I could not find it there. When I learned that the perfin on this British Indian stamp was I not in the 2019 updated Indian Perfin catalog, I posted in this thread for a little help. Anybody have any suggestions on where to look further for information about this British Indian stamp perfin? I sure would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Mike

[abctoo]

British India Perfin, Edward VII Half Anna Postage & Revenue stamp perforated with a "P.P." over "C" or "O." If a "C," perhaps it's for Calcutta? Anyone have anymore information?

Thanks,

Mike

The QEII 1/- with the NU/A perfin discussed in the posts immediately above, may now at least have the name of the perfin user from about 100 years ago identified (even if they are long gone). I checked the cite to the Perfin Society's Sloper Book 2 referenced in those posts to see if my British India perfin (P.P. / O or C) might have been used in Britain. I could not find it there. When I learned that the perfin on this British Indian stamp was I not in the 2019 updated Indian Perfin catalog, I posted in this thread for a little help. Anybody have any suggestions on where to look further for information about this British Indian stamp perfin? I sure would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Mike

A wild thought maybe someone could confirm or deny. Could the overprint read: "P.P. / O.," for Pass Port Office? Does anyone have a passport or letter with a stamp (postage or revenue) with such a perfin? Just trying to figure out what it is. I could not find this perfin in the Sloper record books. Maybe I missed something. Thanks, Mike

[norvic]

I doubt that even in (British) India they would use two words for Pass Port.

[abctoo]

I doubt that even in (British) India they would use two words for Pass Port.

I agree, but what is it?

[nigelc]

I don't see any die like this in The Perfin Stamps of India.

[abctoo]

I don't see any die like this in The Perfin Stamps of India.

Neither could I. Even the updated catalogue could have missed it. Does anybody have it on any stamp, British India or Feudatory State, or even another country?

[mr.perfin]

Here's the "bird's eye lowdown" on this stamp. From all accounts and all sources, including Jeff Turnbull, the editor of the perfin catalog of India ...... this is a discovery copy. This perfin is not known in India, Burma, Ceylon, Straits Settlement, Hong Kong, or it seems anywhere else. It's existence will be noted in future publications of the India catalog.

CONGRATULATIONS!

Isn't this part of the fun that we all find in this hobby? Now comes the really fun part: finding out who was the user and where this was used. I am having a hard time distinguishing any identifiable city or town name in the cancel. What other countries or colonies used Indian stamps during this period. I recall that there was quite a large Indian community in Zanzibar and that Indian stamps were used there. There may be plenty of other places this stamp might have been used. Any further thoughts from the crowd?? This item will go on my side burner.

Value is somewhat speculative as is anything in this area. Doubtless there are a few very serious collectors of Indian perfins,: perhaps a couple of dozen or more. Thousands probably have a small group of a few dozen stamps to many hundreds. Get the right two bidders on the same day and you might break through the $100.00 US mark and it might go considerably higher. Not bad for a cheap "defective" stamp, but not much for something unique.

[abctoo]

You bet it is the fun part of the hobby. But "dog-gone," like you I would just like a direction to go to identify it. All of the other East Indian perfins I have are identifiable by a catalogue or in a listing of perfins made by various perfin manufacturers. As I original said, the last letter could be an "O" or a "C." Any thoughts on the matter? They might help. Thanks, Mike

[mr.perfin]

.
My bet would be on 'C'. They tend to be a bit longer/taller Take a good 10+ power magnifier to the back. If you see no evidence of a circle (to make it an 'O') I feel assured that is a 'C'. The balance of the holes are well defined and I noticed that the two 'P's are even different, albeit slight.

My gut says that it is a postal cancel (revenue cancels are often purple and contain a company name with the date secondary), and business register might help, but this might have been pretty small if only one perfin has surfaced. Remember, the Indians did spread out more than any other "colonials".

There is a large Indian community in Georgetown British Guiana / Guyana, so a complete search of all British colonies might help.

That said, I know that D.A.B. perfins are found throughout Asia, that being the perfin for Deutsch Asiatiche Bank.

Happy hunting!

[Jezza]

I don't know anything about these stamps,,or the perfins,they were just in a big box of stamps I was given many many years ago

[HAPPY_stamps]

Hi Jezza,

These are all British perfins, of which there are about 25,000 in the British perfin catalogue. What would you like to know about them?

H_s

[Jezza]

Thanks for the reply,,, I had no idea that there were so many,,. I don't collect them by any means,, is there anything there collectable. ?? Thank you for your help.

[mr.perfin]

This is an area where you get "big bang for your buck". A couple of years ago, I sold a lot of 40,000 to a guy for $1500 US. It included Penny Reds through Wildings. He got a good deal and I saved myself a year of sorting and classifying.

I have about 150,000 different faces and/or users in my Germans along with 5-10,000 States or colonies/occupation. Add the 3000+ covers and you have a damned good start.

I have sold U.S. Perfins by the ounce (5-600) for less than $20.00 washed and most damage removed.

It is cheap to take it up, so join us!

[HAPPY_stamps]

Hi Jezza,

You ask "is there anything there collectable. ??" Strictly speaking, they are all "collectable", but if you wanted to know if any were "rare" or "scarce", then I would have to disappoint you. In fact, the GB Perfin Catalogue does not assign rarity ratings to perfins. However, as a guide to rarity, I look to see how much information is known about a GB perfin - user's name/date range/ number of issues know with the perfin/ etc. If there is not much known apart from the pattern itself, then it would be fair to think it might not be common.

H_s

[Lundy]

This is an area where you get "big bang for your buck". A couple of years ago, I sold a lot of 40,000 to a guy for $1500 US. It included Penny Reds through Wildings. He got a good deal and I saved myself a year of sorting and classifying.

I have about 150,000 different faces and/or users in my Germans along with 5-10,000 States or colonies/occupation. Add the 3000+ covers and you have a damned good start.

I have sold U.S. Perfins by the ounce (5-600) for less than $20.00 washed and most damage removed.

It is cheap to take it up, so join us!

I just read this and was amazed at the size of your collection... I keep putting these aside as and when they come along and have quite a few thousands now and one of the things that strikes me is how few there are from some some countries eg somewhere I have a Guatemala perfin on cover..... Not sure I have ever seen another..... Will see if I can find it and scan it up. So what countries only have a few types of perfins? There are some great designs on some of these will scan some up later if I get time....

Lundy

[HAPPY_stamps]

Greetings All,

Wherever you may be, all the best for an enjoyable celebration this Festive Season, and happy perfin collecting in 2021.

H_s

[Micky]

Germany.

- Jan 22

WM
F

Anyone able to help with these letters?

Cheers
Michael

[mr.perfin]

2-WMF-1 >
Höhe: 5½; Anzahl: 13;13;8;
Gerät:
Geislingen Steige
Württ.Metallwarenfabrik 1921 1928
Gebiet :
Göppingen
Württ.Metallwarenfabrik, Zweigniederlassung 1923 1930

[Micky]

2-WMF-1 >
Höhe: 5½; Anzahl: 13;13;8;
Gerät:
Geislingen Steige
Württ.Metallwarenfabrik 1921 1928
Gebiet :
Göppingen
Württ.Metallwarenfabrik, Zweigniederlassung 1923 1930

Thank you mr.perfin. A sheet metal company I believe.

[AdrianChantler]

Here are some German perfins I Have...

[norvic]

Perhaps you could crop out the stamps that don't have perfins so as to show us the perfinned ones a bit larger; they look good.

[RogerE]

Good suggestion Ian = norvic! I spent some time peering at the rows
of stamps without perfins, trying to see if they had "blind perfs".
Including them in the image only distracts/detracts for the splendid
perfins in the middle.

/RogerE

[AdrianChantler]

Here is the cropped version

[mr.perfin]

This should be deleted

[mr.perfin]

This is a nice little group! I always loved the "symbols". The top row has the 'tophat' which needs to be flipped 180.

There is also the swan in the group. In the past couple of years someone in eastern europe has begun perforating this design onto stamps from all over the German Colonies, where they were never used and selling them on ebay. I know he was reported to ebay and now puts some vague disclaimer on them, but still, people are buying them. Don't be fooled.

While fake perfins are rarely worth the effort, for some, 'anything for a buck' really ruins it for others. 98% of my perfins cost me less than 15 cents each, and it isn't often that I splurge for a whole dollar on one, but most of the symbols seem to command that price as a minimum.

[AdrianChantler]

Yes, mr perfin I 've seen the forged swan on ebay, they sometimes sell on auction for $20+
I have an example here:

[AdrianChantler]

I saved the picture from the listing on Ebay.

[AdrianChantler]

I have the catalogue for these German perfins in PDF format and I know that the swan was used from 1914 to 1945 in Hanau. I am wondering how the forgers create perfins that closely resemble the genuine design?

[AdrianChantler]

Here is the front scan of the perfins, apologies for smudged part of one of the stamps!

[johnrcrow]

The .pdf files alluded to for German perfins list over 14,000 different perfins.

I have about 1100 to sort at the moment, so whilst still not reaching the dizzy heights of 150,000 (was it?) reported earlier, still an exercise that keeps getting put off.

My version is ´KATALOG der deutschen Firmenlochungen September 2014
Herausgeber : Arbeitsgemeinschaft Lochungen e.V. im BDPh Autor : Dr. Hans D. Hillmann`

Under ´symbols`there are nearly 300 shown.

Most are obvious symbols devoid of, or without easily identifiable, numerals.


Here are a few more I have. I like then too. (Lower left is not strictly a symbol but interesting).

What intrigues me are the first few pages showing very few holes.



Here is first page of symbols. Perfins with only one to four holes!

I am sure that these hardly show on the fronts of stamps so were these a deterrent?



The symbols area is worth a collection I am sure, as some are very attractive and I suppose 300´ish is not too difficult not expensive a lifetime pursuit??



Here is one more later page to illustrate the attractive designs.

I agree about pricing of the the symbols in that thy do have an increased asking price and also the they do not come up so often.



John

[mr.perfin]

Because postage was treated like cash, the deterrent was the ability to return them to the post office for cash. Once perfinned, they were not returnable.

My opinion on some of these is that they are "incomplete punches", but until they are found on cover and proven thus, they remain listed. Every edition of the catalog seems to add a few new discoveries, and delete a few found to be already listed and misidentified. I use a 10X loupe along with a headset to look for evidence of incomplete punchings........... which abound.

[Micky]

USA


Who is 1st (not mine but will buy it if worth it)

USA Perfin 1st

Wurttemberg (also not mine)

[johnrcrow]

Clear point made about cash and perfins JFS.

I assume that you are talking about the perfins with very few holes when indicating incomplete punches.

I am also assuming that people looking at the examples that enter the database do a good job in examining the stamps and look for signs of missing punches.

Seeing a punch with stamp material still in it is relatively easy.

Looking for an impression on the stamp surface indicating a poor punch is harder and of course if the perforator has missing pins then nothing can be assessed.

Of course one uses a high magnification device to examine stamps, as well as with illumination. Scanning and enlargement also is pretty well conclusive and of course one can manipulate the contrast, brightness and saturation to have a deeper look at any ´impressions` in the papers.

We are still only looking at the first say 6 of the page I showed for low pin number perfins and I speculate that these can also be easily missed, or dismissed as aberrations.

Is there a definitive proof of perfin authenticity only when they are on letters?

Generally, the examination with magnification and scanning reveals any problems for most of the 14,000.

Perfins are a bit more interesting than just holes in stamps.

John

[johnrcrow]

Some examples of ´illuminating`perfin holes after scanning and enhancing (left side of scans).

I do to think these would have been missed using hand held magnifier, but shows that there are many stamps with uncleared perfin holes.

This is also important when assessing perfins that are very similar, where a single hole (position/angle) can make a difference.

(An aside---My spell checker insists on changong perfin to puffin!!).

[Lundy]

Dug out my album of world perfins - this one interested me....

Is this 2 different perfins on one stamp? or all part of the same design? looks like 2 in which case I wondered why?

Any thoughts appreciated!

Lundy