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Ukraine post-1991 Donetsk Oblast

Posted: 24 Oct 2010 07:17
by norvic
Let's start this thread with the map. As you can see Donetsk (Ukr: Донецька област, Russian - Донецкая область) is in the far east of Ukraine. It's a big coal mining area.

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Some covers from 1994. Two from Khartsyzk to London, England, but with some inconsistency.

(1) 27.1.94 - 22 krb in definitives (hiding the original 50 kop stamp impression), and a large (27 x 37mm) Poshta Ukraina 2500 krb surcharge, boxed Par avion and Recommande and (western) Kharcysk 3 registered mark. There's the first inconsistency: if 2522krb is the correct postage, the registration fee was not paid.

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(2) 22.1.94 Again 22krb in definitives (hiding the original 50 kop stamp impression), and the same Poshta Ukraina 2500 krb surcharge, boxed Par avion. No registration marking, but two 'stamps' or cut-outs from other envelopes, for 2500krb and 779krb, making a total of 5810! And all 'stamps' have been postmarked at the same time. Was this just decoration, or was it a heavier letter?

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Re: Ukraine post-1991 Donetsk Oblast

Posted: 24 Oct 2010 07:20
by norvic
Much cleaner, and straightforward!

Kramatorsk 3.2.1994 to London, England; 50k Soviet airmail PSE, with machine applied Poshta Ukraini machine surcharge of 2522-00 krb, size 19.5 x 26mm. Can anyone decipher the postmark? N- 6 at the right ought to be matched by something at the left but that didn't print.

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Re: Ukraine post-1991 Donetsk Oblast

Posted: 24 Oct 2010 07:27
by norvic
One more from Donetsk for now, a nice big boxed mark, with no value!

16.2.94 from Kurakhove airmail to UK. The usual 50k soviet PSE, with a 47 x 27mm boxed POSHTA UKRAINA and trident - with space for the amount paid to be written, but it isn't. The rate should be 2522 krb.

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Re: Ukraine post-1991 Donetsk Oblast

Posted: 24 Oct 2010 07:45
by maptrekker
(2) 22.1.94 Again 22krb in definitives (hiding the original 50 kop stamp impression), and the same Poshta Ukraina 2500 krb surcharge, boxed Par avion. No registration marking, but two 'stamps' or cut-outs from other envelopes, for 2500krb and 779krb, making a total of 5810! And all 'stamps' have been postmarked at the same time. Was this just decoration, or was it a heavier letter?
The non-CIS airmail rate for a letter between 20g and 100g was US$0.46. At the 12,610krb = US$1.00 conversion rate, that would be 5800.6 krb. Rounded up to the the nearest 10krb would be 5810 krb.

That 779 krb meter stamp would indicate to me that they were aiming at 5810 krb exactly.

I wonder if other post offices were charging 5801 krb or was 5810 the posted rate throughout Ukraine?

Re: Ukraine post-1991 Donetsk Oblast

Posted: 24 Oct 2010 07:57
by norvic
maptrekker wrote:
(2) 22.1.94 Again 22krb in definitives (hiding the original 50 kop stamp impression), and the same Poshta Ukraina 2500 krb surcharge, boxed Par avion. No registration marking, but two 'stamps' or cut-outs from other envelopes, for 2500krb and 779krb, making a total of 5810! And all 'stamps' have been postmarked at the same time. Was this just decoration, or was it a heavier letter?
The non-CIS airmail rate for a letter between 20g and 100g was US$0.46. At the 12,610krb = US$1.00 conversion rate, that would be 5800.6 krb. Rounded up to the the nearest 10krb would be 5810 krb.

That 779 krb meter stamp would indicate to me that they were aiming at 5810 krb exactly.

I wonder if other post offices were charging 5801 krb or was 5810 the posted rate throughout Ukraine?
Oh, that is interesting, thank you maptrekker.

I had always wondered whether they were actually decoration (albeit poor!). The creasing at lower left, then, is probably not because the brown stamps were stuck on with glue, but because of bulkier content! Terrific! :!:

Re: Ukraine post-1991 Donetsk Oblast

Posted: 24 Oct 2010 08:17
by maptrekker
Kramatorsk 3.2.1994 to London, England; 50k Soviet airmail PSE, with machine applied Poshta Ukraini machine surcharge of 2522-00 krb, size 19.5 x 26mm. Can anyone decipher the postmark? N- 6 at the right ought to be matched by something at the left but that didn't print.
The postmark looks like it end with "ЦЕХ N6". In Soviet postmarks it meant section or division.

The old Soviet postal code of 343932 would tell us the location but I could never find any listing of the corresponding Ukrainian towns. Ukraine now uses a 5-digit postal code.

If anyone knows where to find a listing of the Ukrainian part of the Soviet postal codes, I would love to see it.

Re: Ukraine post-1991 Donetsk Oblast

Posted: 24 Oct 2010 08:31
by norvic
343932 is Kramatorsk. I googled it and found a reference in a pdf, but the key part was highlighted in the search result - Tbilisskaya Street, 43, Kramatorsk, 343 932, Ukraine

Re: Ukraine post-1991 Donetsk Oblast

Posted: 24 Oct 2010 08:50
by maptrekker
Kramatorsk? I don't think the Kramatorsk PO is large enough to have six divisions. In any case Kramatorsk wouldn't fit.

I'll bet the postmark says:

КІЕВ ЦПП ЦЕХ N6

It may be the section at the Kiev PO that handles outbound international mail. The letter may have been postmarked there because Kramatorsk failed to apply a postmark/cancel.

Re: Ukraine post-1991 Donetsk Oblast

Posted: 24 Oct 2010 18:49
by norvic
maptrekker wrote:Kramatorsk? I don't think the Kramatorsk PO is large enough to have six divisions. In any case Kramatorsk wouldn't fit.

I'll bet the postmark says:

КІЕВ ЦПП ЦЕХ N6

It may be the section at the Kiev PO that handles outbound international mail. The letter may have been postmarked there because Kramatorsk failed to apply a postmark/cancel.
Good points. The sender was in Kramatorsk but it is a relatively small place. It does seem more likely that the postmark was applied in Kiev, and the cover may have been purchased and overprinted there as well.

This is one of the difficulties: I learned the way Cyrillic (Russian) letters were written so that I could do that interpretation when the postmark was indistinct. But it does not provide conclusive postal history evidence for the origins or posting place of the item.

Re: Ukraine post-1991 Donetsk Oblast

Posted: 25 Oct 2010 01:10
by maptrekker
It does seem more likely that the postmark was applied in Kiev, and the cover may have been purchased and overprinted there as well.
The meter imprint does not match your other Donetsk Oblast cover, but it does look like the meter imprint on the cover you show in your Kiev thread.

Looks like you will have to move the cover over to your Kiev collection.

Re: Ukraine post-1991 Donetsk Oblast

Posted: 26 Oct 2010 03:09
by vasia
Very interesting threads, norvic! They can provide many interesting discussion topics. Please let us know how we may contribute to these threads. Should we add interesting examples from the respective oblasts in some specific order (types of franking, year of sending, foreign destination, etc)?

maptrekker, I have a list of Ukrainian Soviet-era postal codes that was compiled by Michael Padwee back in the mid-1990's. It consists of 3 pages / scans. It is, of course, not a complete directory of the postal codes of all locations, but it can provide a rough navigation. I can upload them on this thread if norvic thinks that it does not overload it with collateral information or I can possibly e-mail them.

Please let me know on both counts.

Re: Ukraine post-1991 Donetsk Oblast

Posted: 26 Oct 2010 03:30
by norvic
For the list of postcodes, I think it's best to put them somewhere were they can be downloaded either as pdf or wp file - if you want to send it to me by email (ian [at] norphil.co.uk) and I'll host it. Even if you only have it as an image, it can eventually be changed to an editable document - maybe on google docs.

As for other material, mine is coming fairly random, although most of what I have is all from 92-95 - or at least all that I have written up. Each oblast separate, but within that, I suppose chronological to start with. Then others will come in out of sequence, so it won't stay chronological for long.

And of course this extends outside Ukraine, to the other countries, some of which I have already started. I'll make up an index of FSU threads later on.

Re: Ukraine post-1991 Donetsk Oblast

Posted: 26 Oct 2010 07:23
by TKL
Norvic - I have three volumes of 'Soviet Postal codes' which were printed in Moscow in 1986, these included all the Ukrainian Soviet area codes which amount to 250+ pages.

I would be happy the share this information with the list - see sample pages.

How would this information be best presented for all to share?

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The postal code for Kramatorsk as listed in the above guide is 343900

Re: Ukraine post-1991 Donetsk Oblast

Posted: 26 Oct 2010 19:30
by norvic
tkl wrote:Norvic - I have three volumes of 'Soviet Postal codes' which were printed in Moscow in 1986, these included all the Ukrainian Soviet area codes which amount to 250+ pages.
Oh my :!: :roll:

I wonder if the Guteburg project would like to take that on. 250pp will be 125 scans of the sort you showed, but larger. Not too much of a problem apart from the time taken to scan, and load. It never occurred to me - though it should have - that the list would be that long! I'll have to think about this - any suggestions? (BTW, is it A5 size, so two-up on a standard scanner?)

Re: Ukraine post-1991 Donetsk Oblast

Posted: 30 Oct 2010 19:59
by vasia
One of my favorites from Donetsk oblast:

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Mailed 4/4/1994 from Slavyansk (Donetsk oblast) to Donetsk, where it was backstamped 3 days later. The appropriate 200 Krb registered letter rate was paid in cash and this was denoted with the manuscript "СВОР ВЗЫСКАН 200 Krb" (roughly=postal fee was collected) + the signature of the postal clerk.