The $12,100 French meter imprint

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The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by doug2222usa »

RARE EARLY "ATM" STAMP "BAA-001" on TAPE - MONTGERON, FRANCE, item #251213662795 ended 20 Jan 13.

Seller: hcmrs (6572) 100%. Sold for US $12,100 (12 bids)

Image

I'm speechless.

[I think this is a pre-cut gummed label dispensed from a machine.]

See: https://tinyurl.com/bdyrwkb
Last edited by doug2222usa on 22 Jan 2013 05:04, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by JaceStamps »

Maybe I should stop throwing out meters. Unreal. :shock:
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by Wolfgang »

Looking at the bid histoy of this lot - the buyer was prepared to pay some more!

2***0 US $12.100,00 21.01.13 01:49:39 MEZ

2***0 US $12.100,00 21.01.13 01:49:03 MEZ

2***0 US $12.100,00 21.01.13 01:48:29 MEZ

2***0 US $12.100,00 21.01.13 01:23:21 MEZ

n***e US $12.000,00 17.01.13 01:08:02 MEZ

g***h US $11.000,00 16.01.13 11:36:12 MEZ
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by mozzerb »

doug2222usa wrote:[I think this is a pre-cut gummed label dispensed from a machine.]
If it's an ATM (as in cashpoint machine or German automatenmarken?) label, yes. Back in the 1980s there was quite a craze for them, as I recall -- perhaps the growth in pictorial ones is getting them to pick up again? I can imagine the early experimental ones would be quite rare. I wouldn't have expected that prices would ever reach this level, though!
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by philimpex »

This is an extremely rare stamp in unused condition, Michel catalog quoted in 2011 Euro, 8000 so it was sold just a bit above quote.. not a surprising result.. Mi Automatenmarken #1, it's in fact the first ATM ever issued
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by mozzerb »

philimpex wrote:This is an extremely rare stamp in unused condition, Michel catalog quoted in 2011 Euro, 8000 so it was sold just a bit above quote.. not a surprising result.. Mi Automatenmarken #1, it's in fact the first ATM ever issued
Thanks for that -- that explains it! One of those rarities that you have to know about even to recognise that it might be something out of the ordinary.
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by gugusg »

It is CV 1800€ in French Y&T.

Meter stamps seems to be not very popular in France .... :wink:
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by cobbie10 »

Wow, maybe I should go through the 7 boxes of meter mail I have stashed in my storage unit - I think that goes back to the 1950's
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by philimpex »

cobbie10 wrote:Wow, maybe I should go through the 7 boxes of meter mail I have stashed in my storage unit - I think that goes back to the 1950's
Would not help, these stamps are similar to meters but aren't meters, they are officially issued postage stamps (with experimental status) - in France many dealers haven't even seen one in their career and many even don't know that the stamps are listed and quoted in their catalogs..
I collect Poland on cover 1920-24, Soviet Union on cover 1920-60, specially 1939-41. Romania on cover to 1950. Stamps from South Bulgaria /Eastern Rumelia.

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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by Global Administrator »

A faker's delight!
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by Tassie_Stamps »

JaceStamps wrote:Maybe I should stop throwing out meters. Unreal. :shock:
Agree! Many people, often me included completely ignore meters. Should hang onto them and do more research I think! :mrgreen:
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by joelk »

OK, some may be offended by what I want to say (and I apologize for that as it is not my aim), but here it goes anyways:

I wouldn't pay anything for this. It has no artistic or aesthetic value, and no discernible technical value. I have had cash register tickets that are far prettier than this, and you can guess where those end up.

In addition, there may be a historical significance of some sort, but this is such a simple object that it can be very easily reproduced, probably perfectly, as hinted by Glen.

Three or four people probably collect those, and one of them just won his dream object for the price of a (very) small car, or that of a really gorgeous stamp, or set, or several sets. No judgement here though, it's their money and they can spend it as they wish. Just my opinion.

But back to this: since this is such a small market, I don't think it is likely to sustain in the long run...

Cheers,
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by locakart »

joelk wrote:I wouldn't pay anything for this. It has no artistic or aesthetic value, and no discernible technical value.
But beauty - and technical value for that matter - ARE in the mind of the beholder.
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by mozzerb »

joelk wrote:OK, some may be offended by what I want to say (and I apologize for that as it is not my aim), but here it goes anyways:

I wouldn't pay anything for this. It has no artistic or aesthetic value, and no discernible technical value. I have had cash register tickets that are far prettier than this, and you can guess where those end up.

In addition, there may be a historical significance of some sort, but this is such a simple object that it can be very easily reproduced, probably perfectly, as hinted by Glen.

Three or four people probably collect those, and one of them just won his dream object for the price of a (very) small car, or that of a really gorgeous stamp, or set, or several sets. No judgement here though, it's their money and they can spend it as they wish. Just my opinion.

But back to this: since this is such a small market, I don't think it is likely to sustain in the long run...

Cheers,
Joel.
This is the long run -- as I mentioned above, there was a craze for these ATM labels back in the 1980s, which seemed to implode like most crazes do. But they're a perfectly valid kind of item and, with machine-printed postage being an important factor nowadays, doubtless will be coming into fashion again. (You still can't get much for the GB 1984/5 Frama labels, but given the popularity and continued development of the Post and Go stuff, it might be worth seeking out some examples in case people start working back.)

If this is the first such label worldwide (and it's NOT a meter mark printed from a privately held machine, it's a machine-printed label from a Post Office-controlled cash-fed dispenser, more akin to a coil stamp dispenser outside a Post Office) then it's clearly of postal historical significance. To get price levels of $12K+, you need a fair bit of general interest!

As for crudity of design and production, well, no more so than for some of the "Uglies" that have such a devoted following! To fake one successfully you'd need to get the paper, the ink, and the design right -- the first two are testable, and the simplicity of the third means that it's actually probably easier to spot small differences.

Just for the record, I don't collect these, and have never even got around to getting the experimental Post and Go labels when the machines were nearby (which was lax of me, but never mind). But they're as collectable as anything else.
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by joelk »

Mozzerb,

I appreciate your high quality answer to what was really just an opinionated rant.

I guess from my perspective, knowing I could get a mint, four margin, certified penny black for around the same price, there would not be much hesitation at to which one I would go for.

Cheers,
Joel.

PS: and I do think the Indian State uglies, which I don't collect, are a tad more complex than this.
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by Global Administrator »

Does anyone know what year this is from?

Highly researched Ebay seller does not say - surprise, surprise.
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by mozzerb »

Global Administrator wrote:Does anyone know what year this is from?

Highly researched Ebay seller does not say - surprise, surprise.
Well, presumably anyone who knew what this was would already know perfectly well what year it was without having to be told. If you didn't know what it was, why would you be in the market for it in the first place? Sellers can reasonably assume that specialists won't need to be spoon-fed basic information about a specialist item, and non-specialists won't care anyway.

That said, around 1980 at a guess? I don't have a Michel or Yvert catalogue to hand, but anyone who has and is interested could look it up.
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by joelk »

According to Yvert & Tellier, the date was 1969, and the machine was in use in Montgeron for 15 months (so this would be 1969 or 1970).

The catalog value quoted in Yvert (2012) for this 'stamp' is €1850, which is far lower than the Michel quote, and also far lower than the price paid here.

15 months in the modern era is not a short time...

Cheers,
Joel.
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by mozzerb »

joelk wrote:According to Yvert & Tellier, the date was 1969, and the machine was in use in Montgeron for 15 months (so this would be 1969 or 1970).

The catalog value quoted in Yvert (2012) for this 'stamp' is €1850, which is far lower than the Michel quote, and also far lower than the price paid here.

15 months in the modern era is not a short time...

Cheers,
Joel.
1969, eh? Well, that's a lot further back than I expected. It'll be interesting to see what value the next edition of Yvert quotes, given the disparity with Michel (assuming that they don't habitually differ widely).

15 months is quite a long time for anything widely used, but for a single experimental machine installed in a suburb, and presumably not well known(?), it's not so long.
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by Global Administrator »

Thanks very much for your help Joel. :)

... and no comment on the unhelpful and total non-answer above yours.
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by Wolfgang »

Global Administrator wrote:Does anyone know what year this is from?
This issue was only used from March 25th to April 1969.
Later labels from this machine from April 30th onwards are slightly different and a little cheaper.
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by joelk »

Global Administrator wrote:Thanks very much for your help Joel. :)

... and no comment on the unhelpful and total non-answer above yours.

You are most welcome Glen. :D

I did not know the details on the shorter time usage of this particular variety as Yvert does not mention it, but Wolfgang is right that it is the rarer and more expensive one, and is recognizable because of the mid-height position of the hyphen between BAA and 001.

In the cheaper version, catalogued at €500, the hyphen is much lower.

Having said all that, the 2013 Yvert&Tellier catalog value is unchanged from 2012.

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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by Global Administrator »

Curious that the FRENCH Y+T has these at less than a QUARTER of Michel. :?:
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by David Benson »

Well done, Ebay,

everyone, well almost everyone is happy,

The seller, most probably delirious with the outcome and worrying about how to spend the proceeds,

The buyer, got it for under his top bid, he had placed higher bids,

Ebay, what's 15% of $12,100,

The only unhappy ones are the usual culprits, the Ebay naysayers who can never say anything that gives Ebay a good name as it may affect the promotion of their sales on their own web pages,

I repeat,

EBAY, WELL DONE,

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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by cobbie10 »

David Benson wrote:Well done, Ebay,

everyone, well almost everyone is happy,

The seller, most probably delirious with the outcome and worrying about how to spend the proceeds,

The buyer, got it for under his top bid, he had placed higher bids,

Ebay, what's 15% of $12,100,

The only unhappy ones are the usual culprits, the Ebay naysayers who can never say anything that gives Ebay a good name as it may affect the promotion of their sales on their own web pages,

I repeat,

EBAY, WELL DONE,

David B.

Actually David, the maximum Final Value Fee is $250, so the end percentage is way below 15%, in fact one Ebay Fee calculator :

http://www.newlifeauctions.com/calc.html

puts it at 4.97% - an absolute bargain if you ask me - as you said, way to go Ebay !
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by David Benson »

Cobbie,

thanks,

didn't know about the maximum fee,

p.s. didn't know about the item either, although if I had one I would have checked the various catalogues before listing it.

Amazing result, just shows what a scarce modern item can sell for if there are multiple bidders chasing it, luckily for the seller there was more than one,

David B.
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by traderpaul »

eBay seller hcmrs is no eBay dummy.

He is a WW meter and vending machine specialist who has developed the niche with a loyal following over a number of years.

He does not list catalogue #s or values because there is not any one authoritative catalogue. As well, much of the reference material is out of date.

He knew that this was a rare item, he had a $500 start price, and because he has a good following he knows even with a $500 start he will attract good interest.

Looking at his other sales over the last 60 days he has had quite a few $100+ items.

We should only wish that there were more dedicated on-line sellers like him.
Last edited by Global Administrator on 02 Mar 2013 01:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The $12,100 French meter imprint

Post by philimpex »

Global Administrator wrote:Curious that the FRENCH Y+T has these at less than a QUARTER of Michel. :?:
French philatelists have not yet realized about the importance of this issue, same for Brazil's first Frama stamps. These were NOT recognized as stamps by Brazilian post clerks, Brazilian dealers nor Brazilian stamp collectors.

Because at the UPU expo from 1979, where the stamps have been issued, was visited by two or three Swiss dealers accidentally, who already new about Frama stamps, because Frama machines had been installed just before in Switzerland, the large majority of the Brazilian stamps had been purchased by Swiss dealers.

Because the expo was boring and there was very few business to do, because the denomination was small, so the Framas were very cheap and because there was absolutely no rush on these.., according to a friend, who assisted to that expo, it had just been difficult to find sufficiently of the small coins, that would buy these stamps.

Now Brazilian dealers buy back these stamps from Switzerland (I have some few for sale $99 postpaid each :mrgreen: 8) )
I collect Poland on cover 1920-24, Soviet Union on cover 1920-60, specially 1939-41. Romania on cover to 1950. Stamps from South Bulgaria /Eastern Rumelia.

I have tons of material for sale - Albania, Bhutan, Liechtenstein, Monaco and Poland addicted, http://www.philimpex.net
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