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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by The Pom »

pizzifini wrote:
Then I am missing the meaning of re-perforated.
I thought it means that new perforations are cut into the stamp.
In this case it looks like the stamp is smaller because it has been cut into...
Re-perforated simply means that someone has re-cut the perforations at some point to "improve" a rough edge. It will make the stamp smaller, but doesn't mean the new perfs will cut into the design.

In your case, you simply have a poorly centred stamp.
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by pizzifini »

The Pom wrote:
Re-perforated simply means that someone has re-cut the perforations at some point to "improve" a rough edge. It will make the stamp smaller, but doesn't mean the new perfs will cut into the design.

In your case, you simply have a poorly centred stamp.
Thank you for the explanation!

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by psestamp »

Not being an expert on this issue - why do you think it is reperforated.

Comb perfs are difficult as that is how stamps are reperfed - If you had the stamp on a perf gage ....

but - sharp perfs? gage? off center (the stamp is usually larger?)
Image
comb perf perforating machine
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by JonEboy »

Here's one I spotted recently on eBay;

It as described as
BC BARBADOS 1861 BRITANNIA Sc 19 ROSE RED PERF 16 NUMERAL "1" CANCEL F,VF SCV$22
Given that there are no perf 16 Barbados stamps the alarm bells sounded so I sent the buyer, who is based in Buenos Aires, Argentina, a short note advising them that not only was this incorrect but it was clearly a reperf.

Image

One week later I got a reply and huge credit to eBay seller victorgg he said
Thanks for your message. I have changed the description accordingly.
It now reads;
BC BARBADOS 1861 BRITANNIA Sc 19 ROSE RED REPERF 16 NUMERAL "1" CANCEL
With the number of listings he puts up I'm sure this one just slipped through the net but credit where it's due, he responded and changed the listing.

Item No: 351277455107
Listing: click here

Nice to be able to report a happy ending to this one :D

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by The Pom »

Can't say I'm entirely convinced by this one.....

Image
https://www.sandafayre.com/itemdetails.aspx?s=578768&return=true
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by psestamp »

The Pom wrote:Can't say I'm entirely convinced by this one.....

Image
https://www.sandafayre.com/itemdetails.aspx?s=578768&return=true
This is a great lesson stamp to people.

Generally (not always but lets say 90%)

The opposite sides should match in "Cut" or "texture".

Here you see "normal" cuts at the top and right and crisp clean ones at left and bottom.
This is a great TELL that you may have a problem.
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by AlanB »

psestamp wrote:
Image
comb perf perforating machine

I don't believe that is a comb perf machine, psestamp, those are much larger and rarer items. Little office perfing/creasing machines like that will produce a single row of slits, like rouletting, not punched out holes in a line or a comb.

Like others, I would be interested to know what the fakers are up to. Without the proper machinery it can't be easy to produce even bad results.

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Global Administrator »

The Pom wrote:Can't say I'm entirely convinced by this one.....

Image
https://www.sandafayre.com/itemdetails.aspx?s=578768&return=true
Simply an philatelic idiot past owner, that owned a pair of scissors and gave it a "haircut".

Not re-perforatred of course (unless you are the PSE!), but simply butchered forever along LH and lower perf tips.
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by The Pom »

So if it's not re-perforated left & bottom, why are the left & bottom perf holes apparently:

1. Larger than those top & right.

2. Perfectly semi-circular. Unlike those top & right.
Image
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by psestamp »

AlanB wrote:
psestamp wrote:
Image
comb perf perforating machine

I don't believe that is a comb perf machine, psestamp, those are much larger and rarer items. Little office perfing/creasing machines like that will produce a single row of slits, like rouletting, not punched out holes in a line or a comb. Like others, I would be interested to know what the fakers are up to. Without the proper machinery it can't be easy to produce even bad results.
If I showed what a real one looked like I would get fried by the collecting community.

Did that once - wont do it again.
Global Administrator wrote:
The Pom wrote:Can't say I'm entirely convinced by this one.....

Image
https://www.sandafayre.com/itemdetails.aspx?s=578768&return=true
Simply an philatelic idiot past owner, that owned a pair of scissors and gave it a "haircut".

Not re-perforatred of course (unless you are the PSE!), but simply butchered forever along LH and lower perf tips.
Took a little stab at the experts there - eh?

Reperfing 101

Most fakers know what they are doing.
They may get some gage settings wrong but over-all, 95%+ they get the gage correct.

LEASON TO LEARN: LOOK AT THE CUT OF THE HOLE.

The inside is rough at the left and not at the right - This is a HUGE tell.

ALSO - Comparing pictures of the stamp perf holes is a thing that you think would tell a fake.
It makes sence - afterall wouldn't they look different?
Unfortunately it doesn't.

You are trying to detect .1 or less variances in gage and/or a smaller variation in perf hole size.
If you want to do this - don't compare it to a picture - put it in a KUSALAS Gage (may be misspelt)
I have had very high level collectors and auctioneers send us pictures like this saying we are full of sh@t and look at the picture.
If they don't know - how can the novice.

REMEMBER - Fakers are good - almost never stupid.
AND: they take pride in their work.
They do good work but it cant be perfect - If it was you would have the issues like you do with the OS perfins.

Let me tell you why the OS is hard to expertise: :(
Once you get the setting correct - the OS will always measure correctly.
The OS is made by COMB PERF - exactly the same method as the reperfing machine.
There is only one "perf setting" for each stamp (the actual OS) where as a stamp has 4 sides and therefore 4 perf settings to compare against each other.

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by iaincraven »

Let me tell you why the OS is hard to expertise: :(
Once you get the setting correct - the OS will always measure correctly.
The OS is made by COMB PERF - exactly the same method as the reperfing machine.
There is only one "perf setting" for each stamp (the actual OS) where as a stamp has 4 sides and therefore 4 perf settings to compare against each other.
You are right that OS perfs are a very difficult area - does the PSE expertise Australian OS perfs?
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by psestamp »

Nope - to my knowledge no one does (mint)
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by iaincraven »

Nope - to my knowledge no one does (mint)
Okay, that makes sense. Your post above was a bit unclear and difficult to follow/understand. The last bit read as if the PSE found OS perfs hard to expertise. But you meant not possible to expertise - very much understandable.

Is gage American for gauge?

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Certified »

psestamp wrote:LEASON TO LEARN: LOOK AT THE CUT OF THE HOLE.

The inside is rough at the left and not at the right - This is a HUGE tell.
Lesson in English communication; I think you mean: "The inside of the cut of the hole is significantly rougher on the right perfs than on the left perfs, which, in comparison, appear smooth and clean-cut.

This points to the high probability of two perforating machines being used: the original, ex-printer, and the second, a later attempt to improve the visual appearance of the stamp
".

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by psestamp »

Certified wrote:
psestamp wrote:LEASON TO LEARN: LOOK AT THE CUT OF THE HOLE.

The inside is rough at the left and not at the right - This is a HUGE tell.
Lesson in English communication; I think you mean: "The inside of the cut of the hole is significantly rougher on the right perfs than on the left perfs, which, in comparison, appear smooth and clean-cut.

This points to the high probability of two perforating machines being used: the original, ex-printer, and the second, a later attempt to improve the visual appearance of the stamp
".
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by dave222 »

DISCLAIMER: I know nothing of reperfs!

Here's something going on with the perfs - looks more than an attack with some scissors?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1867-SG118-2s-DULL-BLUE-WATERMARK- ... SwyjBW4FgM

Image
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Global Administrator »

Very possibly just scissors on the 2/- Blue. What a Maroon.
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by dave222 »

Global Administrator wrote:Very possibly just scissors on the 2/- Blue. What a Maroon.
I thought that, but some of the pin holes look cleaner cut than others - mostly where the perfs appear trimmed.
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by librarianc »

dave222 wrote:
Global Administrator wrote:Very possibly just scissors on the 2/- Blue. What a Maroon.
I thought that, but some of the pin holes look cleaner cut than others - mostly where the perfs appear trimmed.
Yeah, that bottom edge is pretty nasty. :roll:

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by norvic »

librarianc wrote:
dave222 wrote:
Global Administrator wrote:Very possibly just scissors on the 2/- Blue. What a Maroon.
I thought that, but some of the pin holes look cleaner cut than others - mostly where the perfs appear trimmed.
Yeah, that bottom edge is pretty nasty. :roll:

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Question: if you had a vertical strip of 3 (or more) and the top and bottom were badly damaged would you

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(b) cut them apart to get at the good one in the middle as shown
(c) cut them apart with greater care, leaving perfs of different lengths, so as to make it look less 'nasty'.
:?:
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by The Pom »

For cheap stamps, tear apart every time. No matter how you do it, scissors will always leave smooth, square ended perf tips, which just look wrong.

Something I've also seen done, mostly with pricier stamps, is to fold the strip so the bad stamps are hidden behind the good one. It can always be unfolded later if some reason for doing so arises, such as a positional flaw being plated to one of the bad stamps.
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by dave222 »

norvic wrote: (c) cut them apart with greater care, leaving perfs of different lengths, so as to make it look less 'nasty'.
I think it cutting them that makes them look nasty! :)

If I want to separate stamps, I carefully fold along the perfs (so the stamps are face-to-face) and then fold back (so the gum sides are together) - I repeat this action several times until the joins between the perfs are properly weakened - it is then simple to tear apart, leaving nice perf tips :)
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by librarianc »

norvic wrote: Question: if you had a vertical strip of 3 (or more) and the top and bottom were badly damaged would you

(a) tear them apart to get at the good one in the middle
(b) cut them apart to get at the good one in the middle as shown
(c) cut them apart with greater care, leaving perfs of different lengths, so as to make it look less 'nasty'.
:?:
Just askin' :!:
I'm not old enough to have ever "HAD" to use scissors on any stamp! :wink:

Fold and tear is my only solution.............or just leave the multiple for the next owner to decide on.

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by norvic »

I agree with all these suggestions: my purpose was to suggest that other people may not have thought things through like that.
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by The Pom »

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTRALIA-SGO123-1931-2d-ROSE-RED-FINE-USED-/281886141612

Image

Image

As always, there are no prizes on offer for spotting the re-perfed sides....
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Tassie_Stamps »

You really can tell on that one, it stands out like . . . :shock:

northstaffsstamps are a very high feedback seller and should know better.

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Clive »

Global Administrator wrote:Very possibly just scissors on the 2/- Blue. What a Maroon.
Don't go slagging off we Queenslanders. :lol:

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Clive »

Tassie_Stamps wrote:You really can tell on that one, it stands out like . . . :shock:

northstaffsstamps are a very high feedback seller and should know better.
Matthew,

There are a lot of scissor-trimmed perforations out there. They are nearly always obvious.

Do you think sellers have an obligation to specifically draw attention to stamps that have been given a haircut? Or are they entitled to rely on 'every picture tells the story'?

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by The Pom »

That isn't just scissor trimmed. Three sides are completely re-perforated.

To describe such a stamp as "Fine Used" is blatant dishonesty.
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Clive »

The Pom wrote:That isn't just scissor trimmed. Three sides are completely re-perforated.

To describe such a stamp as "Fine Used" is blatant dishonesty.
Well, I referred only to the scissor-trimmed perfs.

Many, many stamps offered for sale on eBay are hopelessly misdescribed through ignorance. Sorry, I don't categorise that as 'blatant dishonesty'. This very thread illustrates just how much many collectors don't know about re-perfs.

When a seller deliberately doesn't disclose faults that s/he knows are faults, then that's dishonesty.

I take Matt's implied point that so-called experienced sellers should know such things, and declare them, but it's been my experience that eBay sellers, by and large, don't know any more than most collectors about re-perfs. Or any other significant aspect of the stamps they sell, but then that's hardly news to most.

Just reinforces, in my view, that it's buyer beware out there, particularly on eBay. I would hazard a guess, and that's all it is, that the vast majority of buyers and sellers on eBay do not read Stampboards, or anything else that might help them avoid some of the pitfalls associated with buying stamps.

For what it's worth, and as a result of some postings on this site, I contacted Status about a re-perfed 6d first watermark punctured large OS with retouched 'second E of pence' that they for sale in the last-but-one auction. And also directed them to scans of other stamps from the same auction that had been 'called' as re-perfs by contributors to the thread:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=25115&p=4505551#p4505551

The response was "Before knowing it was slightly reperfed we considered that it [the 6d OS] would be a $1000+ stamp, so as reperfed we still consider it worth the $500+ [estimate]. Thanks for the link to the discussion. Most of the stamps posted [on the discussion thread, above] are not reperfed - although couple probably are including one where we mentioned that it was in the auction description."

Clive

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by The Pom »

Clive wrote:
I take Matt's implied point that so-called experienced sellers should know such things, and declare them, but it's been my experience that eBay sellers, by and large, don't know any more than most collectors about re-perfs. Or any other significant aspect of the stamps they sell, but then that's hardly news to most.
The sellers of the re-perfed Kingsford Smith:

http://www.nstaffsstamps.com/#General Information

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Tassie_Stamps »

Clive wrote:I take Matt's implied point that so-called experienced sellers should know such things, and declare them, but it's been my experience that eBay sellers, by and large, don't know any more than most collectors about re-perfs. Or any other significant aspect of the stamps they sell, but then that's hardly news to most.
Hello Clive, yes that is correct. I agree with you. :)
Clive wrote:Do you think sellers have an obligation to specifically draw attention to stamps that have been given a haircut? Or are they entitled to rely on 'every picture tells the story'?
Yes, I think they should. Better to mention it in the lot description than have people wondering... The picture does tell a story, but people can interpret it differently. :wink:

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Rod Perry »

This little gem might classify as "Re-perforated Stamp of the Year", rather than "Week"?

Image

A First wmk., accurately described "tiny imperfections, reperforated at right, but apparently unmounted."

Estimated AU$4000, it realised $3968 with add-ons.

I can't help asking myself, just what would possess someone to pay that sort of money for an adulterated piece of paper?

If the quantity of paper removed from the right hand side of that stamp was able to be determined, and it's a fair percentage of the original fabric of the stamp (the selvedge at top gives an indication: where are the perforations!), one would be horrified to learn just how diminished in volume is this item.

Buy, hey, it's unmounted!

Similarly, if the amount of paper removed from a stamp when faked "OS" punctures are introduced (particularly Large "OS") was to be modeled as damage to the host stamp, in one specific area, say a corner, around one-fifth of the original fabric of the stamp would be missing!

Obsessive, gap-filling collectors are amongst the most enigmatic participants in Philately.

The Hobby's interpretation of fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Global Administrator »

We always should have lot numbers for these posts Rod -

https://www.mossgreen.com.au/m/lot-details/index/catalog/210/lot/92238/

The Year's most amateur re-perf and agree, why anyone would pay even $1000 for this ruined stamp amazes me. Like like a blind nun with a knitting needle did the deed. :mrgreen:

To mossgreen's credit, it is noted as a re-perf (unlike another major auction who never do own up to them it seems, on similar value Roos etc, and deny they are, even when it is pointed out.)

Buying superb looking things facially with a minor issue on back is one thing, but THAT Dog??

I listed this 1/4d Small Multi up tonight, with an ACSC Plate Var, and perfs and centering unheard of on any 1/4d. Genuine MUH, stamp and margin with a tiny suggestion of gum aging, but give me that ANY day over a butchered re-perf!
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Remco Mouthaan »

Now this indeed is an really great centered stamp. I know you do not give a .... sometimes. But it has THE looks for an idiot like me :).

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Global Administrator »

Taken from another thread (also with a fake cancel!) - talk about the phrase "re-perforated by a blind nun, with a blunt nail." :mrgreen:

I show alongside a superb mint example from my current stock (837EQ) that has NOT been re-perforated - showing the NORMAL margin width on these 5/-.
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by psestamp »

A perforated proof?
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Barbone »

Image

I saw this online, and it looked reperf to me, particularly the bottom and the top left. Anyway thought id seek some more expert opinions.
KGV and the Colony of Victoria

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Global Administrator »

Barbone .. totally legit.
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Barbone »

i dont know if thats a joke or not :?
KGV and the Colony of Victoria

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Rod Perry »

Barbone wrote:Image

I saw this online, and it looked reperf to me, particularly the bottom and the top left. Anyway thought id seek some more expert opinions.
Agree with Glen; why would you consider this common, insignificant stamp to be reperforated?

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Global Administrator »

Barbone wrote:i dont know if thats a joke or not :?
Your signature says you collect - the "The Colony of Victoria".

You then presumably own many 100s, maybe 1000s of stamps, with those exact same typical identical uneven perforations?

But despite all that you ask us, and after it was answered, you ask if the answer was a "joke"???

(Please keep the lower case unpunctuated text-speak for your cellphone messages - we use Queen's English here at all times.)
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Barbone »

I am actually new to the art of philately, and so my signature is only an aspiration. I do not have many thousands of stamps from Victoria, and was only trying to clarify the advice I received.
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by billw2 »

I know next to nothing about Australian States stamps but the alignment of those perf holes is atrocious, and to me, as someone that collects US, that looks like an amateur reperf job.

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by David Benson »

I will join the group that considers it be 100% absolutely, undeniably genuine.

David B.

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Rod Perry »

billw2 wrote:
Rod Perry wrote:
Barbone wrote:Image

I saw this online, and it looked reperf to me, particularly the bottom and the top left. Anyway thought id seek some more expert opinions.
Agree with Glen; why would you consider this common, insignificant stamp to be reperforated?

Rod
I know next to nothing about Australian States stamps but the alignment of those perf holes is atrocious and to me, as someone that collects US, that looks like an amateur reperf job.
But, Bill, it's single-line perforation, applied horizontally and vertically in separate operations.

The intercept point of the two procedures does not synchronize.

Consequently, that's how they look once separated from a larger multiple.

Trust me, I've handled many hundreds of the stamp, and they all come the same way.

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Barbone »

Thanks for explaining how it's caused. :D
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Allanswood »

They have pretty dodgy perf spacing between each perf. The saving grace is that the same spacing occurs on opposite sides of the stamp indicating that it indeed was the actual single line perf mechanism that has the badly spaced perfs.

Depending on the timeline of that stamp, it was primitive and could even have been perfed by hand via the machine rather than more mechanised.
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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by wilbaer »

Rod Perry wrote:
Barbone wrote:Image

I saw this online, and it looked reperf to me, particularly the bottom and the top left. Anyway thought id seek some more expert opinions.
Agree with Glen; why would you consider this common, insignificant stamp to be reperforated?

Rod

Hi Rod and Greg,

As to the perforating machine used for this stamp, the standard for this was a comb perf though, wasn't it? There are instances of single line perfs (12.4 and 11) but only on type B (7mm length of postage), according to Brusden White. This then must be Crown Over A watermark.

Either way, if this is a genuine single line stamp all round, this would be a pretty rare stamp, wouldn't it? Are you 100% sure this is a single line perf device? If you look at the bottom right 4 holes on the bottom of the stamp, they are very uneven (2nd of the 4 is way lower).

But if you look at the corresponding section at the top of the stamp, the holes are VERY even.

Barbone - can you let us know what the watermark of this stamp is, please?

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Re: Re-perforated Stamp of the Week.

Post by Barbone »

It isnt listed as anything specific, but it appears to be Crown over A.
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