David Allen "Georgie" Gee aka Chinese Ma - stamp faker etc

myNBstamps · Post by **myNBstamps** » 15 Mar 2013 07:35

I am searching for information with regard to the above individual which members, especially in Australia may be able to help. He was an active forger of postmarks postwar based in Sydney.

His postmarks which were many, include those of China and Tibet and also those of Japanese occupation of the various countries in Asia.

Latterly, he became notorious for faking some of the most valuable Australian coins and almost single handedly ruin the market in rare coins of Australia. For this crime, he was jailed for 7 years in 1979.

There was a book written with the title of : "Heads I win, the true story of David Gee" which is proving difficult to get hold of but is widely available in libraries throughout Australia.

Any information at all would be most welcome.

Kind regards.

bazza4338 · Post by **bazza4338** » 15 Mar 2013 07:51

There is a copy for sale (AUD85.00) here:-

http://www.thepurplepenny.com/311,heads-i-win.-the-true-stor ... orger.html

bazza4338 · Post by **bazza4338** » 15 Mar 2013 07:52

And here for US$90.00:-

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=9555113722& ... n%2Bforger

bazza4338 · Post by **bazza4338** » 15 Mar 2013 07:54

Some further information:-

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,10739.0/now ... 40eb5c8f55

myNBstamps · Post by **myNBstamps** » 15 Mar 2013 08:18

Many thanks for such a swift response. I wonder whether the book contains any information about the postmarks that he forged, which is my primary interest in this individual.

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 15 Mar 2013 08:59

try

Robson Lowe's book on the forgeries,

" The Gee-Ma Forgeries by Robson Lowe Forged overprints and cancellations of China, Japanese Occupation, G.B. and Tibet. Robson Lowe's one page on Gee-Ma is a delight to read. 1980, 12 pages, self cover, edition said to be 250, $22.50 "

available

http://pbbooks.com/fake.htm

should give you all the answers,

David B.

myNBstamps · Post by **myNBstamps** » 15 Mar 2013 09:06

Thanks David, I do have the monograph and it has spurred me on to do more research especially in forged JO stamps of northern Borneo.
Regards

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 15 Mar 2013 14:48

"Georgie Gee" is still alive and well and regularly attends Sydney actions .. sadly.

He had HUNDREDS of aliases.

myNBstamps · Post by **myNBstamps** » 15 Mar 2013 19:01

Sheriff

That information is very useful. It has given me another lead to follow. He arrived in Australia in 1939 ? from Straits Settlements ? Singapore.

Does that mean he is at least in his late 80s? Someone should interview this guy before he expires. His side of story would be very informative and interesting.

He is still active. There has been some recent dubious Tibetan cancelled stamps which were presumed to be his work. Any other information, images etc would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

cazna · Post by **cazna** » 16 Mar 2013 14:14

Hi

I saw "Georgie Gee" at a Sydney auction business a few years back and asked him to autograph my copy of the book "Heads I Win".

George immediately asked "What name do you want me to sign?"

The book is a great read but there is no specific information on which postmarks he had created.

bazza4338 · Post by **bazza4338** » 16 Mar 2013 15:22

Freudian Slip?

Or does Robin tell fibs?

myNBstamps
Location: Robin Hood's Liar, England

Or should it be "Lair"?

aethelwulf · Post by **aethelwulf** » 16 Mar 2013 15:30

David Benson wrote:Robson Lowe's book on the forgeries,

" The Gee-Ma Forgeries by Robson Lowe Forged overprints and cancellations of China, Japanese Occupation, G.B. and Tibet. Robson Lowe's one page on Gee-Ma is a delight to read.

I have a copy of it, and agree, RL's write-up was great. Valuable monograph worth more than it's selling price, as it could save you a fortune not buying duds.

aethelwulf · Post by **aethelwulf** » 16 Mar 2013 15:32

myNBstamps wrote:There has been some recent dubious Tibetan cancelled stamps

Tibetan material is so full of dud material, its like the Italian States of Asia material.

myNBstamps · Post by **myNBstamps** » 16 Mar 2013 16:37

Bazza

Many thanks for pointing it out. It is a great embarrassment to be slandering my local hero. English is my adopted language and sometimes I get a bit dyslexic.

Regards

myNBstamps · Post by **myNBstamps** » 16 Mar 2013 17:09

Noble Wolf

I like your online book store. I am surprised that Georgie Gee was not listed in the book about stamp forgers in your online store. You have many good books there.

The surname Gee is very unusual for a Chinese. Does anybody have any thoughts?

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 16 Mar 2013 20:59

Georgie seemed to like faking things just for the fun of it.

I seem to recall he forged this set (mint) once -

Not to make any money for they were never worth much more than the underlying stamps, but just for fun it seems.

Again relying on memory, but there was a court trial many decades back and leading Barrister and stamp guru Bill Purves was called to give evidence as to whether they were fake or not.

I have a copy of 'Heads I Win' here somewhere - I should go read it!
.

myNBstamps · Post by **myNBstamps** » 16 Mar 2013 22:33

Sheriff

I shall be very grateful if you could let me have any personal details eg birth year, place of origin etc etc of Mr Gee after you have the chance to read the book.

Many regards

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 16 Mar 2013 22:37

Sure .. I'll consult my state-of-the-art Dewey system index right away -

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3636

Glen

steevh · Post by **steevh** » 16 Mar 2013 22:52

.

Global Administrator wrote:Georgie seemed to like faking things just for the fun of it.

I seem to recall he forged this set (mint) once -

Not to make any money for they were never worth much more than the underlying stamps, but just for fun it seems.

Again relying on memory, but there was a court trial many decades back and leading Barrister and stamp guru Bill Purves was called to give evidence as to whether they were fake or not.

I have a copy of 'Heads I Win' here somewhere - I should go read it!

Well, they do say that people who like their work are often the best at it.
.

myNBstamps · Post by **myNBstamps** » 16 Mar 2013 22:59

Thanks Glen
Do not get too immersed in it!!!

More best regards

jjarmstrong47 · Post by **jjarmstrong47** » 16 Mar 2013 23:11

Doing it for fun is the sign of a true artist - just a pain in the ass for everyone else, something like graffiti.

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 17 Mar 2013 06:39

Glen,

he forged the KGVI surcharges to pairs of the basic stamps to make pairs of 1 missing the surcharge.

p.s. he lives in Mosman.

David B.

jjarmstrong47 · Post by **jjarmstrong47** » 17 Mar 2013 12:37

Not just for fun and art's sake then.

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 17 Mar 2013 12:40

no,

it was for " what's that word ",

PROFIT,

I remember seeing a pair for sale at an Auction in Sydney about 10 years ago with a question mark after the description,

David B.

jjarmstrong47 · Post by **jjarmstrong47** » 17 Mar 2013 12:45

The silly thing is that now they are worth more than the real stamps, though not than a genuine pair with one missing overprint. There seem to be quite a few members who collect forgeries.

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 17 Mar 2013 23:14

I've never seen pairs of them, so he must have only done one set.

Tassie_Stamps · Post by **Tassie_Stamps** » 09 Jul 2013 23:15

He passed away on the 13th of June this year according to a post made by a new member in the introductions thread.

myNBstamps · Post by **myNBstamps** » 10 Jul 2013 02:54

Pity!

HayeSmyth · Post by **HayeSmyth** » 10 Jul 2013 03:39

myNBstamps wrote:
The surname Gee is very unusual for a Chinese. Does anybody have any thoughts?

Curiously, I often come across 'philatelic' mail addressed locally in Hong Kong, to a Mr. E.F.Gee.

Ma and Pa must have had a sense of humour.

Lakatoi 4 · Post by **Lakatoi 4** » 10 Jul 2013 21:13

Ma and Pa's humour also came out in his initials.

David Allen Gee......aka......DAG.

Rod Perry · Post by **Rod Perry** » 12 Jul 2013 21:42

Can anyone confirm that Georgie Gee has indeed passed away, as advised in the post a few prior?

I never met the man, but came close to being a "dissatisfied participant" when he bought several thousand dollars worth of Kangaroos from my auction in the 1970s, under the name Dr David Yu.

Well, being a good Doctor, I naively sent the material in the first instance. We all trust our Doctor, right? Ah, the innocence of one in his twentie's.

When I had not been paid after several months, I mentioned the situation to my mentor and friend, Phil Downie. "Rod, that's a pseudonym of Georgie Gee. I thought you would have known?"

My heart sank. What to do?

I hatched a seemingly lame brain solution. I would appeal to his greed.

So it came to be, I advised "Dr Yu" that we had a fabulous collection of Kangaroos consigned for auction. There would be much, so much, for him to buy. There was, however, a minor obstacle; the unpaid invoice from a few months earlier.

Remarkably, and on cue for a man to whom "greed is good", payment came through for the outstanding account. Sadly, that "fabulous collection of Kangaroos" never arrived (sunk on board Colombo perhaps?).

Gee's story would make a movie; a really interesting movie.

Oh, I didn't mention that Phil Downie also advised me that Gee curried favour with stamp and coin dealers in the 1950s/1960s, supplying girls, er, of the kind which one probably wouldn't have taken home to meet mum and dad.

Rod

Snowflake · Post by **Snowflake** » 16 Jul 2013 11:53

Hi Rod, I can confirm that Allan passed away on 13th June this year. I know this for sure as I attended his funeral. The funeral was held at Macquarie Park Crematorium on 25th June. I've never heard him called Georgie before, where did that come from? anyone know?

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 16 Jul 2013 13:04

Snowflake wrote: I've never heard him called Georgie before, where did that come from? anyone know?

That is the only name I have heard used for him in 35 years in dealing, however he had 100s of aliases of course.

mgb · Post by **mgb** » 16 Jul 2013 14:05

Snowflake wrote:Hi Rod, I can confirm that Allan passed away on 13th June this year. I know this for sure as I attended his funeral. The funeral was held at Macquarie Park Crematorium on 25th June. I've never heard him called Georgie before, where did that come from? anyone know?

FYI: He's also listed on the Macquarie Park Crematorium - DAVID ALLAN GEE (died 13 June 2013) was cremated there.

myNBstamps · Post by **myNBstamps** » 16 Jul 2013 16:54

Snowflake
Do you know how old he was when he passed away?
Thanks

Snowflake · Post by **Snowflake** » 16 Jul 2013 17:34

Allan always kept his real age a secret, but I think he was born around 1928, give or take a few years.

He always looked younger that he was and was only in recent years that he had grey hairs.

I believe he was born in Canton and was a fighter pilot during the Koreen War and Chinese Civil war. He got shot down a number of times but as we all know, luck was always on his side.
.

myNBstamps · Post by **myNBstamps** » 16 Jul 2013 17:59

Snowflake
Thanks. Very interesting information. He was quite a character. I would appreciate anymore information you might have.

Snowflake · Post by **Snowflake** » 16 Jul 2013 18:58

myNBstamps, can I ask you why you need all this information on Mr Gee?

fromdownunder · Post by **fromdownunder** » 16 Jul 2013 19:29

Snowflake wrote:myNBstamps, can I ask you why you need all this information on Mr Gee?

I think, like myself, myNBstamps is looking for anecdotal stories on Mr Gee's philatelic activities. His personal life is of no interest to me, nor I suspect, anybody else. His life within the stamp trade is something else completely. While there have been a few "larger than life" people involved in stamps in the past, there really are only a very few, and these are the sorts of things stamp collectors love about the history of our mutual hobby. Mr Gee is probably one of the larger of the "larger than life" characters and one of the best known.

I reiterate, his personal life holds no relevance.

For many years, the Australian Stamp News ran monthly articles by Bill Hornadge on his experiences in the trade over about a 30 year period. If I recall correctly, there was one two pager on Mr Gee by Mr Hornadge. Bill's articles were the first I always turned to over this period, because stamp collecting and stamp knowledge is about history and all that this entails, and especially including knowledge of the more colourful characters that populated our history.

If you read the Boards, you will find threads where a single almost impossible to decipher old letter with smudgy postmarks can raise a discussion which can go to 40 - 50 posts, discussing, analysing and dissecting. History, and the world that goes with it is what we do. Mr Gee was part of that world. Any interesting (stamp related) thing that can add to that history is grist for the mill.

Norm

Rod Perry · Post by **Rod Perry** » 16 Jul 2013 21:50

Snowflake

Thanks for confirmation of the passing of this colourful character, in and of itself not a happy occasion.

There once was a time in Philately, a wholesome "King of Hobbies", "Hobby of King's" era, capitalised upon by the pre-war philatelic marketeers.

However, in these any publicity is good publicity times, the mention of a "colourful character", one with an interest in our hobby, will more likely gain the ear of anyone prepared to lend it for sufficient time to enable a potential recruiting impression (for Philately).

And that's got to be a good thing.

Rod

Post by **gavin-h** » 16 Jul 2013 22:18

Rod Perry wrote:However, in these any publicity is good publicity times, the mention of a "colourful character", one with an interest in our hobby, will more likely gain the ear of anyone prepared to lend it for sufficient time to enable a potential recruiting impression (for Philately).

And that's got to be a good thing.

...except to the parents of small children looking for a hobby for their little darlings.

They're more likely to look at this sort of, erm, "colourful character" and think "No thanks, stamp collecting's full of sharks and charlatans!".

Snowflake · Post by **Snowflake** » 16 Jul 2013 22:38

.
Norm, I agree Mr Gee was a larger than life character (s).... funny I only said that to someone the other day. It came as such a shock when I heard of his passing as there were so many questions I wanted to ask him and now the opportunity has passed.

I'm afraid I don't know much about his business dealings with stamps or coins other than what I've read. I only knew him as a friend so I'm of not much help to you.

I recall years ago when I first met him, I think in 1977, he told me a few stories about his 'adventures' but to be honest I didn't pay too much attention as wasn't sure whether it was fact of fiction but everyone knows these stories now.

He just seemed like a really nice man who ran a video shop at Spit Junction who also had some great parties. I'm sorry I can't be of much more help.

I think you chaps should have tried to track him down and ask him a few questions. Knowing Allan he would have been happy to tell you .
.

Lakatoi 4 · Post by **Lakatoi 4** » 16 Jul 2013 23:15

gavin-h wrote: They're more likely to look at this sort of, erm, "colourful character" and think "No thanks, stamp collecting's full of sharks and charlatans!".

Oh my God, tell me it isn't true

fromdownunder · Post by **fromdownunder** » 16 Jul 2013 23:19

Snowflake wrote:I didn't pay too much attention as wasn't sure whether it was fact of fiction but everyone knows these stories now.

i am not sure it matters all that much now. It would have been a lot of fun to find out for sure, but:

"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend"

- The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

Norm

Snowflake · Post by **Snowflake** » 17 Jul 2013 10:46

Rod, I've just read your post again and been thinking about it and really don't know what to say except good on you for outsmarting him. It surprises me that he 'delayed' paying you. I know he wasn't short of money so don't understand why he would do that. Why would he take that risk? I suppose we'll never know now. I know he travelled a lot, for a month on end at times, or am I trying to make excuses for him. I'm sorry you had that experience in your dealings with him.

Snowflake · Post by **Snowflake** » 17 Jul 2013 11:12

I recall when I met Allan all those years ago he told me there was a book written about his antics. I was sure he told me the book was called 'Goldfinger' but in those days you didn't have the internet so tracking down a book wasn't that easy, especially if it was out of print. So I forgot about it until recently when was talking to someone at his Wake who confirmed the book was called 'Goldfinger'.

When I got home from the funeral I started doing a little research to see if I could find the book. The only book I could find was the James Bond Goldfinger books - interestingly two of his aliases. This is when I came across this website. Anyway I found the book 'Heads I Win', bought it and last night just finished reading page 109 where it talks of the shock of one of Allan's customers when he found out he had been duped.

He apparently had two of Australia's leading coin experts virtually guarantee the coins authenticity. The coin cost him $10,000. I can't imagine how I'd feel if that happened to me. It also struck me what a dangerous life he must have led.

On the upside, I was thinking this morning, I hope Mr Adler still has that coin because I've read if your fortunate enough to have one of Mr Gee's coins they could be worth more than the original. I hope Mr Adler had a happy ending.
.

mikeg · Post by **mikeg** » 17 Jul 2013 13:51

This is very interesting- thanks to all

I do not have any examples of his work, but if anyone here does, I assume this would be the appropriate place to show them.

Robson Lowe's booklet, while interesting, does not really give enough info that one could use it to identify anything.

myNBstamps · Post by **myNBstamps** » 17 Jul 2013 16:53

.
Snowflake and others

My interest is purely philatelic. I am from Sabah, formerly known as North Borneo. I have an ongoing interest in forgeries of the Japanese Occupation period.

I recently came across his name and then read Robson Lowe's monograph which stirred me to further research. This board has been really really helpful. Many thanks!

Looks like I should seek out Bill Hornadge's article. fromdownunder, can you help?

Best wishes

fromdownunder · Post by **fromdownunder** » 17 Jul 2013 17:05

myNBstamps wrote:Looks like I should seek out Bill Hornadge's article. fromdownunder, can you help?
Best wishes

I would have to dig back through about 1,000 stamp magazines which are in no particular order and that actually sit in five foot high piles to find the one you need. I simply do not have the time to do this so sorry, I can't help at present.

As far as I know, The Stamp News articles written by Hornadge are not on line anywhere, so there is probably no on line source for this either.

Norm

myNBstamps · Post by **myNBstamps** » 17 Jul 2013 17:09

Norm
Still many thanks for the info. It is another fresh lead.