1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoughts?

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1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoughts?

Post by Tounga »

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AUSTRALIA-1913-Kangaroo-1d-perf-O ... 1438.l2649

This has a cert but has been identified and analysed by the PCNZA forgery commity.

Both punctures have been measured against the analytical data base and both do not match any known large Os die types.

In fact the bottom left pattern is vastly different from the central strike

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Re: On eBay what Is others thoughts?

Post by Global Administrator »

Please READ our simple and bog basic common sense guidelines, and post again when you have.

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Re: On eBay what Is others thoughts?

Post by Tounga »

Image

Image

Seller Status International store lot number 172944138911 - $A2,499.00

This has a certificate but has been identified and analysed by the PCNZA forgery committee.

Both punctures have been measured against the analytical data base and both do not match any known large OS die types.

In fact the bottom left pattern is vastly different from the central strike

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AUSTRALIA-1913-Kangaroo-1d-perf-O ... 944138911?
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged double perf on eBay. Member thoughts

Post by Global Administrator »

If I needed to venture an opinion, I'd say both are 100% genuine perfins. The perfin cuts into 2 outer RH perfs, which points to it being genuine to me. A faker would never make anything that ugly! Or that subtle.

The $2,500 price is totally silly as one expects from Status, but the "OS" look OK to me at least. However not noted in ACSC, so that is never good. :mrgreen: However ACSC is not always up to date on OS varieties. Arthur Gray's woefully ratty pair of 4d with INVERTED large OS perfins, on OHMS envelope piece sold after intense bidding for near $A1000 - 10 years back.

I bought a 1d Red used copy years ago in an ancient collection, with Large AND Small OS. Should be totally impossible of course, but is accompanied by pre-war detailed typed letter from leading philatelic scholar Dr. Collins on its provenance and veracity.

Has clearly showing "Scratch In Bight" flaw - ACSC 2(B)e so is Die 1 which were printed in 1913.

Cancel ink bleed into both punctures so that is essential. Has a 1913 cancel, and the small OS was introduced late 1913. Will send to Dr Kellow when I get a spare moment for his views. And it will be $500 not $2,500! 8)

Major Dormer Legge in the 1920s/1930s created all kinds of totally silly missing portions on 1d Roos, Missing Heads, missing value tablets, and so on. Rod Perry bought his pages of "FUNNIES" (as Legge marked them!) and sold them off over the decades, until quite recently.

Australia Post were hoodwinked in my view, by ASDA/ADSA to buy one of these fake "Missing Heads" for their Archives at a stupid high price. Urged to do so by a few leading ASDA/APTA dealers then and now, whose motives I'll let readers dwell upon! Arthur Gray told me he'd been offered several of them over the years, and "all were as genuine as a 3 Dollar Bill." Arfur never bought one, and that speaks volumes. :idea:

In this era J. B. Cooke regarded supplying the "free Government use" stamps as a great irritation, and stamps badly centred, badly perforated, double perforated, and otherwise defective for retail sale to the public were deliberately put aside for the rough application of OS perfins, and many strange things exist on them, in this "waste not - want not" WWI era, where nothing was tossed away.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Benson »

Tounga,

do you have a copy of the Perfin's Club certificate,

David B.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Allanswood »

I overlaid the lower OS onto the top and fail to see the "vastly different pattern"- they are very close.

Ceremuga says it's from an old strip of 3 that he knows of. Would be nice to see the old strip as the provenance.

There are also the edges of the lower OS showing on the right of this stamp that lead into the next stamp in the row.

I would like to see the back of the stamp as well though.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by jrg »

David, there is no PCNZA certificate. We won't be issuing one.

We measured this stamp exhaustively from a 1200dpi scan supplied by Status when it was originally offered at auction. We found that:

1. neither of the OS punctures have the characteristics we expect of a genuine large OS

2. neither puncture matches any of the 12 known large OS devices (these have been mapped from a complete sheet)

3. the two OS punctures do not match each other, as you would expect if they had been struck from the same device.

The fact that the stamp came from a multiple is a point in its favour, but it would be interesting to measure the other two stamps involved and compare the three sets of measurements. Multiple forged punctures are not unknown - the PCNZA has examples in its reference collection.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Rod Perry »

I'm in the genuine camp.

Couldn't it be possible that the first attempt at puncturing produced the poorly centred execution, and a second attempt at a later stage was made to render the puncture positioning more acceptable?

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Kainnikanada »

A copy of the stamp under discussion was opened in Snagit where a yellow outlined circle was created to completely fill the perforation hole seen on the left of the topmost one of the upper 'O' of 'OS'. The same circle was copied to fill all the holes of the 'O'. A copy of it was then made and altered to red to fill all holes of the upper 'S'. This circle was then filled with yellow to outline the lower 'S' and finally the initial circle was copied and filled with red to outline the lower 'O'.

It appears the Snagit circles generally completely occupy the holes of the upper 'O' and the lower 'OS' and are mostly too small to fill the holes of the upper 'S' i.e. the upper 'S' has slightly irregular larger holes. The embellished example is shown below.
Image
Next a copy of the above stamp was imported into StampCompare as the exemplar while the original copy was imported as the candidate for comparative purposes. The intention was to superimpose the upper 'OS' (outined as black holes) over the lower 'OS' (yellow and red outlined circles filled with red and yellow respectively). By superimposing black onto the colours of red and yellow and selectively toggling the two stamps I could alter the appearance of the filled circles of the lower 'OS'.
Image
As can be seen in the screen capture of the Stampcompare toggled image the final result confirms the upper 'OS' is the same as the lower one since the bright red and yellow filled circles of the lower 'OS' are completely muted by the black holes of the upper 'OS'.

While the 'OS's were made by the same implement it seems the top 'S' was struck slightly out of kilter (twice?) or the stamp moved during its strike. The irregular rough-appearing outlines of some of the letters seem to indicate a forgery.

My collection does include what I believe is a genuinely perfed large 'OS' 2d roo. I will later post a Stampcompare comparison of it against the example in this thread.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Well done Kainnikanada. :)

Yes 100% genuine, as Rod Perry and I surmised. There is another superb and simple reason it is clearly genuine, that I am not offering here to assist the faker's data base to take note of. :idea:

Sadly the Greek faker of OS perfins, who had peddled them by the THOUSANDS on ebay to clueless Bunnies since the 1980s, has made everyone nervous about ALL official perfins. :twisted: :twisted:

The Perfin Society has done very good work to stop some of it in recent times, but the damage has been done in past decades.

Many "OS" things exist that are 100% kosher, that are not in Catalogues - yet.

I was shown a very fine many generation family collection once that was on original 1920s album pages, and had TWO x 2½d SECOND watermark Roos used in there - perf 'OS'. 105% Genuine. Sadly my offer for the large collection was not accepted, so where it is now who knows, but the 2 stamps were 105% genuine as I checked them carefully in amazement. Kellow refuses to list them and states on page 2/52 they are all fakes. He is wrong. I do not own them, and never did, and have no skin in the game, but they were most certainly genuine.

No fakes were made of ANY 'OS' Roo punctures pre WW2, indeed until the 1980s really. Gibbons did not even list them until recent decades. THAT was the key.

Geoff Kellow refused to list the 10/- and £2 Roo Small Multi OS for decades as he could find no official records of them being done - same as the notes he makes on 2½d above, printed in midst of WWI when records were a mess. Very admirable, but in WWI and the Great Depression the Small Multi were printed in, many things were not 'normal'.

Arthur Gray and I proved to him, via the weirdly high placement and centering of his £2 used copy (below) and my mint copy, I'd bought for a song in the USA in the 1980s, were both from the same sheet as can be clearly seen!
Image
Arthur's used copy above was invoiced at a massive $34,500, and my Mint copy I sold for a song - a couple $1,000 to Kevin Nelson as it was not then catalogued. To this day they are the only two known or recorded. If that mint copy of mine re-appeared, I'd get $50,000 easily.

NEVER be daunted by things not catalogued, if your knowledge and research is good. :idea:

I owned a 5/- 1913 Perf Large OS, superb with full gum, with the crisp Melbourne CTO cancel, 100% genuine, but in theory "impossible" - but simply something not recorded before. Some kind of one-off VIP set, or the like, no doubt.

Not all genuine stamps are yet in Catalogues. :mrgreen:

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Coath »

Rod and Glen, I respect your experience and I am certain that you have seen enough of these to know the good from the bad. But John's method is not a matter of experience alone but rather a precise, empirical and measurement based method of expertising these. I am not sure if he has explained this. So to my mind unless Status or anyone else for that matter can share their similar process that is precise, empirical and measurement based, then they are just offering an opinion. In something like this I believe that measurement beats opinion.

Now having said that I must confess that this is an elaborate example, but if the measurements indicate that the dies are not within the known tolerances of variation in the large OS dies and that they are not even the same then that says it is not a true strike.

Am I certain. No, I follow Bertrand Russell's view on this, the wise are never certain, but I will trust a measurement above an opinion

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Coath »

Glen I recall some fake OS's shown in Geoff Kellows book on the 1 1/2d Canberra that had providence to pre war. But I would agree that this is the exception. Most seem to date from the 1980's but it is hard to know with stamps. They go into albums and tend to resurface much later.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

David Coath wrote:Glen I recall some fake OS's shown in Geoff Kellows book on the 1 1/2d Canberra that had providence to pre war. But I would agree that this is the exception. Most seem to date from the 1980's but it is hard to know with stamps. They go into albums and tend to resurface much later.
David that is WHY I typed ROOS! Which is what we are discussing here. :mrgreen:
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No fakes were made of ANY 'OS' Roo punctures pre WW2, indeed until the 1980s really. Gibbons did not even list them until recent decades. THAT was the key.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Allanswood »

David Coath wrote: But John's method is not a matter of experience alone but rather a precise, empirical and measurement based method of expertising these. ... In something like this I believe that measurement beats opinion.

Now having said that I must confess that this is an elaborate example, but if the measurements indicate that the dies are not within the known tolerances of variation in the large OS dies and that they are not even the same then that says it is not a true strike.

Am I certain. No, I follow Bertrand Russell's view on this, the wise are never certain, but I will trust a measurement above an opinion

I'm in two minds about the above double strike. Someone can use all the measurements they like and then I will simply punch through a known example and have the exact same holes with all the angles you care to check.

There are other ways to confirm, in my eyes anyway, that a perf OS is genuine that I have not seen a faker able to replicate. I can usually tell if it's been drilled, sewing needle punched or cut with a sharpened syringe.

I'd need a better scan of the front and also the back of the stamp.

But if the PCNZA is saying that the shape of the OS does not match any of the 12 dies, then are they meaning that, as both OS's on the stamp don't match each other, then also neither strike matches a known pattern even though as far as I can see we're talking in pixels of difference? Or are they saying the second strike is faked?

(And the faker made more than one as it's partner is entering from stage right.)

Edit: Sorry, just went back and read that it has been noted that neither OS matches any known of the dies measured.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Back pre-war anything Roos perfed “OS” or “OS NSW” in any form was regarded as damaged goods by the senior collectors and trade, "defective stamps for the kiddies", and made any stamp worth FARRR less, not more. :mrgreen:

Below is a set of 1913 Roos MINT to £2 'OS NSW' I bought off Phoenix at Melbourne 2013 for $7,500 the LOT - as it did not attract a bid during the Hardy sale - attended by near EVERYONE of note in the global stamp business, as folks were all worried they “might be fake”! The superb and fresh mint set 2/- to £2 were clearly worth over DOUBLE that alone - even then. Indeed the fine £2 ALONE, was worth twice what I paid for the full set.
Image
The fact Stuart Hardy had typed up the album page on an old Remington in the 1940s they were on, was a rock solid GUARANTEE they were fine - to anyone with a small serve of brains. Stuart likely paid HALF as much (or indeed way less) as non-perfins way back then, as all serious collectors hated perfins in that era. :mrgreen:

I sold Alan Salisbury a mint £2 "OS NSW" in the 1980s and have not handled another.

I had David Wood on the phone to me during the Stuart Hardy Kangaroos sale, to excitedly tell me an "OS" £1 Roo had just sold for $250,000 or so, and when he commented only 10 or so lots had gone unsold, I simply said "Invoice them ALL to me, and I'll collect them when I fly down tomorrow." So that he could say he had a 100% lot clearance rate at end of sale. A FIRST for such a major sale here. :mrgreen:

David said - "you do not even know WHAT lots are unsold, or what they will cost", and I said it did not matter to me. Just chalk them all up to me.

As Mark Knothe had described them all, I knew description would be accurate. Among the bundle of sight unseen purchases that attracted no bids in the room or phone or internet, was this 5/- Large OS Roo below, that was unsold at $20,000. It had no Cert, so no-one bid. Real value about $100,000, as it is clearly unique in "OS", and a non OS single Monogram is $40,000 cat.

Mark Knothe tracked me down the next day when I got to Melbourne, and told me that 5/- stamp was THE best buy in the entire sale - in his view.

Funny story - David Wood dropped off the bundle of lot cards to me at the stampboards stand with the invoice, and at that exact moment a good client walked up with his wife to say hello. He saw the stamps and said - "what do you have there Glen?". I said - "just some stuff I bought, that I have not seen or looked at yet."

He said - are they for sale? Me - "well everything is for sale, but I have not even looked at them yet." WIFE then SAYS - "Darling, why don't you ask Glen if he will sell you the lot?"

ME thinking Candid Camera cameras must be set up on me for a sting laugh footage etc of a WIFE urging her husband to spend what a new Mercedes costs, on STAMPS - I say - "well I have the invoice here for $X - I'll add 10% or so, and they are all yours, if you want to take a punt at $XX,0000 the lot." Client says - "here is my Plutonium Amex card - sounds like a fair deal."

To this day I have never once seen the back of this $20,000 + 16.5%, 5/- OS stamp, as I handed over all the lot cards to client, and he wandered off with his wife! :lol:
Image
He got Mark Knothe's "Best Buy of the Sale" piece and the OS NSW set to £2, both at about HALF their true market value. So he did well I think, and was ~$30,000 ahead just on those 2 lots.

My mentor, Ken Baker, the most successful dealer ever in this country, stressed time and time again to always remember his sage advice - "Son, you CAN’T go broke making a profit". :lol:

Ken did not have a Harvard MBA, and neither do I, but oddly, simple and time proven business principles, often work better than fanciful theory, and greedy mark-ups, that see stock sit around for decades. 8)

IS it genuine - of course. I need no Certificate to know that. PROVENANCE is incredibly useful. Stuart Hardy would have bought the 5/- about 50 years ago. When Monograms sold for not much more than single mint stamps, and Monograms with holes punched in them were 'damaged goods' to most serious collectors.

There were NO fakes whatever of OS Roo perfins until about the 1980s, when Seven Seas Stamps listed them and offered album pages for them. Even Gibbons did not list them until the 1990s. So no-one pre-war had EVER created a Die for Large OS Roos to try and fake anything!

Glen
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by corpman »

So just how good and reliable is this Ceremuga?

He seems to issue certificates for every country and region from all eras and gives opinions on perfins, gum and postmarks.

Is one person really that knowledgeable and accurate or am I missing something here?

His opinions in general seem to hold a lot of sway and I just sometimes wonder how "independent" and unbiased he really is?

Any other thoughts on this.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Coath »

Good work Kainnikanada. That is a useful visual tool and it does show the difference in the 2 strikes which is most clear in the left hand side of the left hand O comparison. This is what John had suggested.

I note that you say:

"While the 'OS's were made by the same implement it seems the top 'S' was struck slightly out of kilter (twice?) or the stamp moved during its strike. The irregular rough-appearing outlines of some of the letters seem to indicate a forgery."

I agree with you that this indicates a forgery.

But even if your images had shown that the strikes were the same, this would not prove that they were genuine. The method John uses takes the image and notes the pin locations and then compares that to a database of true strikes and measures any variation.

So Glen I think you are rather bold to think that this input from Kainnikanada allows you licence to say :

"Well done Kainnikanada. :)
Yes 100% genuine, as Rod Perry and I surmised."

Becuase his image is consistent with John's description of the strikes and Kainnikanada suggests it is a forgery.

And while we a chatting, I agree with you that there are many things still yet to be found in the OS realm, but I would not be 105% certain of a 2 1/2d Second watermark large OS without measuring it empirically. They could exist and if they did I would expect to find them mint and done as a favour to some public servant or similar. The large OS although replaced in 1913 may have still been in working order.

But as to listing them in a catalogue I agree with the stance that Geoff Kellow took as you need to be certain before listing them. Geoff has peerless access to records and would want the reports to be supported by the records. Something that would not exist if they had been done as a favour as I have suggested. But we may never know.

Thanks for the chat

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Coath »

Allanswood pardon me if I have not posted this correctly but I do not do this often.

Your point is well made:

"I'm in two minds about the above double strike. Someone can use all the measurements they like and then I will simply punch through a known example and have the exact same holes with all the angles you care to check."

That is true and such a method has been used but it is imprecise if not done with the greatest care. I recall it was the method of choice of a Melbourne dealer some years ago. More often fake dies are used and these are also imperfect replicas and therefore throw up measurements and co relations of pins locations that are not in the true range.

"There are other ways to confirm, in my eyes anyway, that a perf OS is genuine that I have not seen a faker able to replicate. I can usually tell if it's been drilled, sewing needle punched or cut with a sharpened syringe."

Some are fairly sophisticated but yes there are some rough examples as well.

It is an area that has had a grubby past of late but with the technique developed for and used by the PCZNA we are confident that we can expertise these Commonwealth OS's and in time many other Government patterns.

But a measuring tool is in some ways flawed as it cannot detect a perfectly or near perfectly created fake. So 100% certainty is not possible. The PCNZA opinions only say that the strike in question is , or is not ,consistent with the known true dies.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Coath »

corpman wrote:So just how good and reliable is this Ceremuga?

He seems to issue certificates for every country and region from all eras and gives opinions on perfins, gum and postmarks.

Is one person really that knowledgeable and accurate or am I missing something here?

His opinions in general seem to hold a lot of sway and I just sometimes wonder how "independent" and unbiased he really is?

Any other thoughts on this.
Corpman you make a very good point. We are part of an old, complex and massive hobby and the more I learn, the more I realize that I know less than I thought I did. Even within my specialization in Australian perfins.

So if I learned of someone who rendered expert opinions on a vast array of Australian and foreign stamps and the associated overprints, perforations, perfins, papers etc, then I would regard this person with suspicion.

If I was to then learn that they worked with a major Auction House that regularly listed Australian and Foreign rarities and provided certificates for these, then my suspicion would deepen.

If, as it happens now, that I was to learn that this expert had certified a perfin that was not able to get a certificate by the PCZA's empirical measurements, then I would consider this expert certificate and the expert to be questionable.

Having said that I noted a certificate by this expert in a recent Phoenix lot that looked perfectly fine right next to one that did not.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Coath »

Glen

Fair point :

"David that is WHY I typed ROOS! Which is what we are discussing here. :mrgreen:"

Apologies , my mistake, but I suspect that you are expressing certainty when there needs to be caution. We cannot really know.

Love the quote from Ken Baker and your point about providence

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Rod Perry »

David Coath wrote:Rod and Glen, I respect your experience and I am certain that you have seen enough of these to know the good from the bad. But John's method is not a matter of experience alone but rather a precise, empirical and measurement based method of expertising these. I am not sure if he has explained this. So to my mind unless Status or anyone else for that matter can share their similar process that is precise, empirical and measurement based, then they are just offering an opinion. In something like this I believe that measurement beats opinion.

Now having said that I must confess that this is an elaborate example, but if the measurements indicate that the dies are not within the known tolerances of variation in the large OS dies and that they are not even the same then that says it is not a true strike.

Am I certain. No, I follow Bertrand Russell's view on this, the wise are never certain, but I will trust a measurement above an opinion
I'm confused.

Extract from the above posting:

" . . . the measurements indicate that the dies are not within the known tolerances of variation in the large OS dies and that they are not even the same then that says it is not a true strike." (my emphasis)

Is it contended that the "forger" applied two differing puncture configurations?

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Geoff has peerless access to records and would want the reports to be supported by the records. Something that would not exist if they had been done as a favour as I have suggested. But we may never know.
David you really must master the QUOTE feature here. :)

Kellow's policy is prudent I agree, but sometimes very clearly flawed when PO record keeping was poor.

The 10/- and £2 Small Multiple OS do NOT exist in printer records, therefore Kellow stated for decades that no genuine examples could exist - in the ACSC. "Peerless access" to sometimes faulty records is still not FACT. 8)

Arthur Gray and I proved those records were faulty, as fully explained above, with 2 examples shown. Bought on different continents, decades apart, and still the only 2 examples recorded. ACSC now lists and prices both at massive prices. :idea:

You then must be saying both these two are forged as sloppy printer records from the Great Depression do not list them, and that is the only form of proof you appear to accept. WRONG. :lol: :lol: :lol:

PROVENANCE is heavily undervalued by some. And common sense by others. And existing genuine copies by even more others! Both stamps exist, both are genuine. :mrgreen:

"The last word in Philately is never written". Open and enquiring minds will always ensure that. 8)

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Coath »

Rod

I get the confusion, how could the 2 strikes be different ?

As I explained above these strikes may not have been done by a fake die(s) but rather on a pin by pin basis as the Greek has done with dental equipment (?) and was the method used by the Melbourne Dealer about 6 years ago. Time flies.

This is the great benefit of John's measurement method. It plots the positions of the holes in true strikes and then relates them to a series of other pins in the pattern. So all the pin locations and then some of the relationships between pin locations have to be correct for the pattern to pass. As my brother says he is "putting on 2 condoms". There are also allowances for angle in case the sheet is not square .

This is not some half arsed process it was developed by an expert in geospacial mapping and adapted to a smaller area.

It is solid

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Kainnikanada »

I'll post another comparison I've made then everyone can verbally duke it out with their opinions!

Three assumptions:

1. The 6d blocks shown below are genuine perf 'OS' or at least perforated by the same implement
2. The 2d perf large 'OS' shown below is genuine
3. The Stampcompare program used for comparative purposes requires the user to select 4 common points on both the exemplar and the candidate to successfully compare images ergo if the four match neither image is basically distorted since the location of the points selected are within some reasonable tolerance. If there is partial agreement distortion is evident. No agreement and the program blows up i.e. no product is produced

A couple of small perf 'OS's in my collection:
Image
Image
From the first block I selected the upper left stamp and used it as the exemplar in Stampcompare. The stamp from the lower right corner of the second block was selected as the candidate for comparison. Two stamps from separate blocks as seen below.
Image.....Image
The result from Stampcompare:
Image
The 'OS's are from the same implement and....there is minimal distortion of either image required to overlap both images - I could have tweaked the selected points to further improve the overlap but wasn't necessary since the agreement is rather self-evident.

Lastly I have this 2d roo in my collection that can be used for comparison with the subject of this thread. The 2d is:
Image
The attempted comparison in Stampcompare of the 2d with the 1d blew up in several directions indicating to me that the 1d 'OS' disagrees with the 2d in several of the selected apparent common points - note distortion of the 2d in its right edge.
Image
Two different implements were used to create the 'OS's of the 1d and the 2d.

As to one or the other having been forged well...it's over to the heavyweights for sparring.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Ive never studied it in detail, but I do know that there was not one printer apprentice walking around punching stamps one at a time with an OS hand punch!

With perfins of sheets 120, I am assuming there was a punch grid of 120 x OS units, (or maybe 60 so they could do 1 pane at a time?) and some minor pin variance I am sure was apparent right across those 60 or 120?

So studing the pin placment of stamp of 1 will differ slightly from stamp 30 and differ again from stamp 60 etc - correct?

So taking any single stamp, and noting a truly a miniscule pin variance to that punch on another stamp, does not surprise me one iota, even if both stamps are genuine. Making this field VERY tricky. 8)
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by aethelwulf »

David Coath wrote:Love the quote from Ken Baker and your point about providence
Just lurking, with no expertise in perfins to contribute, but the knowledge of language to say that providence and provenance are completely different things.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Benson »

Glen,

it was mentioned that there were twelve different types, presumably the forme was set up to perforate a single row at at time, then the sheet was moved one row down continuing until the pane was completed. That would mean that type 1 would be on the 1st. stamp of the row etc. To prove the overprint is a forgery then it would be in the wrong position if a different type was on a different position of the row,

There was a comment
Neither puncture matches any of the 12 known large OS devices (these have been mapped from a complete sheet)
To me it seems unlikely that the 12 types were spread over a sheet.


David B.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Allanswood »

They were punched in a similar way to how they were perforated - a row at a time. The pressure required to punch an entire sheet would have been enormous and if you did 4 sheets at a time, impossible.

I have a full sheet of 1d KGV Green.

If the way a row advanced was mechanised and the gear slipped then the the row could have been punched twice, but from history, that seems very rare.

I've also suggested before that if the shape of each die is known and the sample stamp can be plated then the plate position must match the die row position.

But a measurement can only be one part of the "is it genuine" equation.

And if it is thought that the patterns do not match any of the 12 dies, then was the fact that the second punch will have altered how the pins interacted with the paper and the already existing holes they pressed against been taken into consideration?

At a guess which was punched first the normal centre or the off centre?

It would be nice to actually be shown what doesn't match rather than simply being told the science is perfect and you must therefore believe. :D
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Benson »

Greg,

thanks,

What intrigued me was the word " SPREAD ", over the complete sheet ",

David B.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Allanswood »

I don't know the software used but in the 2 blue small OS above they won't be the same - the overlay while showing a matched OS also shows that the stamp has been enlarged and distorted a little to make the OS fit each other and not the other way around.

Both stamps must remain the same size to be compared.

The OS die across a row are very close with minute details of difference. When made by hand and with 12 repeats to make, the drilling of the die will have had small variances between each even being extra careful - but they are still very close. And then scanners came along and we can count pixels and angles.

If I have some time later, I'll show the 2 blue OS with the method I usually use.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Coath »

Glen

Sorry I do not have your quote system sorted.

Glen you have so many great stories you should write a book, wound in with your traveling tales that you featured in Stampnews. I often found these more interesting than the philatelic discussions.

I agree Geoff's system is good, but I have a friend who works in production planning and he says that some records are flawed. Sometimes they are a record of what should have been done or they correct previous errors and stock relationships. They are generally correct but can be prone to selective error, but they are the "record" and are evidence.

You are also right, access to peerless records does not create facts, but it is evidence and that evidence needs to be challenged by better evidence or conflicting evidence and then weighed. Sighting examples of the stamps that are not reported is also evidence and that is fine, but it is not proof in itself. Having them certified so as to ensure that they are true strikes is even better.

By the way I did not suggest that those examples 2 Pound OS perfins that you showed were forged , all I did was to offer the view that forged OS perfins existed prior to WW2. So please do not say that I am wrong, when I have made no such claim. This is a straw man argument and is used by people who have a weak case that would look better if the opposing case was weakened. It is commonly used in polemic debates and as such has no place here.

You are right, provenance (as Aethelwulf corrected us - thanks) is heavily undervalued. But it also has flaws, as the oldest collection is added to over time and it is only truly as old as the date of the last inclusion.

I also agree with you that ""The last word in Philately is never written". Open and enquiring minds will always ensure that". This is true and so important, but its enemy is rigid thinking, "sacred cows" and certainty, and we should guard against these.

And as a final point if you are looking to bring into question something that I have actually said, then have a go at the issues that I raised in my post of "Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 17:56:11 pm" that responded to your post of "Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 14:06:01 pm" in which I debunk your statement of : "Well done Kainnikanada. :)
Yes 100% genuine, as Rod Perry and I surmised."


Thanks David

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by jrg »

For details (and pics) of how the punctures were applied, see

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=29657
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Coath »

Thanks Glen, Kainnikanada, Allanswood and David Benson for advancing this discussion and sharing the image overlays and you knowledge of the puncturing methods of the Commomwealth OS patterns.

As Glen says, it can make this "field very tricky"

You have correctly identified the layout of the machine punch head as 12 dies in a horizontal array with a gap between dies 6 and 7 to allow for the centre shelvage. Now the layout is important as it allows the 12 dies to be plated and the slight variations in the dies to be mapped into the database for this pattern. As John Graham said this was done using an entire sheet of 1d Roos perf large OS.

This format of 12 dies (6 + 6) is a common layout and was used for the Commonwealth large OS, small OS (one for KGV and another for Roos) , OSNSW (on Roos) OSNSW (on KGV) as well as the derived variations , OS (of NSW 1933) , GNSW (on KGV and contemporary), WA (on KGV) and the first 2 Heads of the VG.

These are all detailed in David Andersen's excellent study ""Australian Official Perfins" - David Andersen Edition 2, 2007. Which covers these Commonwealth Official perfins as well as State patterns.

There are some complexities as the OS used on the 1927 - 29 Commems was the old Melbourne OS used on the stamps of Victoria. It was a 10 die device in a vertical array. This allowed it to make single central strikes in these issues that if struck with 12 dies (6 + 6) format device it would have made multiple impressions (some partial).

So knowing the layout variations (they get more complex with later VG, WA (amended) and GNSW devices, is a vital tool in knowing what to expect in both true patterns and forgeries.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by dukeprince »

Wonderfull information contained in the postings so far , we have all learnt heaps Im sure.

Would slight variations in hole placement occur by the sheet of stamps perhaps bowing/bending or shifting or distorting whilst being punched through, that is my only question as I am pretty sure I have seen slightly elongated holes at times.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

David Coath wrote:
By the way I did not suggest that those examples 2 Pound OS perfins that you showed were forged, all I did was to offer the view that forged OS perfins existed prior to WW2. So please do not say that I am wrong, when I have made no such claim. This is a straw man argument and is used by people who have a weak case that would look better if the opposing case was weakened.
Using the QUOTE feature is DEAD simple David. :lol:

David, there is only one weak case here I'd suggest! You stated as there are no records of these Small Multis OS perfins being done, so Ipso Facto, they cannot exist, or be genuine, using your interesting methodology. Philately would of course be still stuck in the 1870s, if that was a widespread thought process. :idea:

The Sweden TreSkilling Yellow would still be a "crude fake", not a $5 million world stamp rarity, and the GB "Plate 77" Victor Hugo cover, also a 7 figure piece now with three Expert Certificates, and a ton of other major rarities, are now all accepted as 105% genuine, that were earlier, heavily debunked as fakes, as no 'PROOF' they were printed could be found. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wiser heads prevailed in all these cases.

Arthur Gray and I have proved that is also nonsense with these £2 Small Multi's OS Roos. Even Kellow, who agrees no printer records exist for them, has listed and priced these for years. Neither stamp has a cert AFAIK, and yet one sold for $35,500 in the massive Arthur Gray Auction, and the other Mint one I once owned (and sold for a couple $1,000!) would get the same or higher figure today if it appeared, in my opinion, Cert or not.

I own neither, nor have for decades, and have no idea who does, and have absolutely no skin in the game, but it proves the point that "the Last Word in Philately is NEVER Written" if we all have open minds. Arthur and I were not the mousey type of persons to sit back, and be told such genuine stamps "did not exist". Philately is always RICHER for experienced folks who think outside the box. 8)

Many savvy dealers and collectors use common sense, vast experience, "the sniff test", and their eyes - and a combination of all 4 - and someone somewhere writing a note saying they are not genuine, (or the opposite) often does not sway their view. The entire Swedish Philatelic Brains Trust Establishment as recently as the 1970s very publicly in writing totally dubunked as a large "Expert" Group, the Tre Skilling Yellow as an outright fake. And came up with all kinds of Loopy reasons. All of them now proven to be clueless and blinkered philatelic dopes - by science, same as with the Plate 77 cover. :mrgreen:

David, as you have been advised several times already in this thread, and clearly do not want to read, there were ZERO forged Kangaroos OS perfins reported before WW2 AFAIK, so why keep obfuscating that there were? Indeed I'd suggest before as late as the 1970s they were unknown - WHY? - as they were worth LESS retail than umtampered with stamps. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You are a senior member of the Perfin Society - please post here clearly documented examples of all these alleged pre-war Roo Large OS fakes, if you are saying I am mistaken. You on the ONE hand argue that written proof needs to exist for one argument to prevail, and on the other hand keep arguing something for which there is no written proof is correct, as it suits you here. And YOU talk about 'Straw Man' Arguments!

These are not 'Straw Man' arguments David - they are bog basic revelvant FACTS!

The 1d Roo above seems OK to me on the scan for several reasons, but I do not own it, never have, and in the case of OS perfins have not examined it, which is VERY important - and oddly nor has the Perfin Society as far as I know?

I accept that you Perfin Society guys have some very complex measurements taken, and experienced sets of eyes, and will have a good chance of picking most fakes from a scan. Some can be dismissed as fakes from scans alone, we all know that.

The fact the Perfin Society seems NOT to be stating it is fake, but clearly is "not liking it", saying it does not match the 12 known genine perfin settings, seems odd to me to be honest.

IF the Perfin Society is saying one or both of these 2 x 1d Red OS punctures are fake, simply state that. Right now it is like being half pregnant. If these punctures allegedly do not match the 12 known puncture types, as has been stated, call it a fake - it must CLEARLY be one or the other.
As I have typed about 1,000 times here ............... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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You guys do have it, more than the rest of us - let's see it outlined, in cases like this perhaps?

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Allanswood »

dukeprince wrote:Wonderfull information contained in the postings so far , we have all learnt heaps Im sure.

Would slight variations in hole placement occur by the sheet of stamps perhaps bowing/bending or shifting or distorting whilst being punched through, that is my only question as I am pretty sure I have seen slightly elongated holes at times.

I'm still working on this modified image I borrowed from somewhere... anyway bear with me (it's not finished) as this I how I puncture the OS machine to have worked,
Image
Illustration of how stamps were perforated.

However for Perfins like the OS you need to imagine a thick steel plate about 5mm thick being drilled with the OS patterns. The pins sit in and pass through this plate (the guide/top plate) and then pass through the sheet of stamps into another 5mm thick steel plate (the base plate) that has been drilled with the same pattern that the pins are sliding through.

Some research suggests that to ease the amount of effort (it takes a lot of pressure) required to actually punch so many holes that the system was slightly concave and punched from the centere out with only a few pins actually passing through a sheet at any one time.

It's a OS perf sandwich with OS above and below the sheet.

As the top presses down on the bottom the pins descend through the top plate, through the stamps and into the bottom plate where the round punched paper is expelled out.

The chances of a bent pin are negligible to me, as is a broken pin, as the pins don't exit above the first (top) plate, they sit there (protected) and ready to punch again. It was quite a robust system for multiple repeated punches.

However if a pin was weakly made or not round when sent from the factory then it may punch slightly oval each time or break off.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by dukeprince »

If a picture is worth a thousand words, you just wrote the thousand - great work. :mrgreen:

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by jrg »

Global Administrator wrote:
The fact the Perfin Society seems NOT to be stating it is fake, but clearly is "not liking it", saying it does not match the 12 known genine perfin settings, seems odd to me to be honest.

IF the Perfin Society is saying one or both of these 2 x 1d Red OS punctures are fake, simply state that.[/color][/b] Right now it is like being half pregnant. If these punctures allegedly do not match the 12 known puncture types, as has been stated, call it a fake - it must CLEARLY be one or the other.
Glen, you couldn't be more wrong.

There is not a soul alive who knows exactly how the 1913 production process worked. There is limited documentation in historical stamp magazines, but there is nothing extant (if it ever existed), and no-one living, to describe every possible way a stamp could have been produced.

Just because PCNZA says a puncture doesn't match the currently-known patterns DOES NOT mean that puncture is a fake. Only a fool or an omniscient genius would draw that conclusion, and we at PCNZA are neither.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Allanswood »

Just as an aside, to be fair to the issuer of the cert above; at what stage was PCNZA asked to examine the stamp (and give it an 'open' finding), when the cert was issued over 6 years ago?

Chris did note that he is aware that this stamp is off a strip of 3.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by jrg »

Greg, PCNZA was asked for an opinion by one of our members in August, when the stamp appeared in the catalogue for Status sale 335.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

jrg wrote: Glen, you couldn't be more wrong.
I am missing something perhaps. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I gather from the posts above there were only twelve (12) different large OS pin postions in the short life of that Large perfin. Correct?

This double perfin stamp PCNZA is stating matches none of these 12 positions. Correct?

I ask that surely that makes this stamp' perfins either GENUINE or FAKE - easily sorted. Correct?

It must be ONE of these 2 choices. You can't be half pregnant. :lol: :lol: :lol: Correct?

The official response to that very simple proposition is -
jrg wrote: Glen, you couldn't be more wrong.
I got it. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You used a sheet of 1d large OS Roos to carefully map the slight differences of each type, and when shown 2 punctures that PCNZA themselves clearly state do NOT match the 12 you mapped out, reply -"they are maybe fake, and maybe not, and maybe a bit of both - we certainly cannot know."

I got it. :lol: :lol: :lol:
David Coath wrote:
As Glen says, it can make this "field very tricky"

You have correctly identified the layout of the machine punch head as 12 dies in a horizontal array with a gap between dies 6 and 7 to allow for the centre selvage. Now the layout is important as it allows the 12 dies to be plated and the slight variations in the dies to be mapped into the database for this pattern. As John Graham said this was done using an entire sheet of 1d Roos perf large OS.

So knowing the layout variations (they get more complex with later VG, WA (amended) and GNSW devices, is a vital tool in knowing what to expect in both true patterns and forgeries.
PCNZA clearly have no firm position on this stamp they have a 1200 dpi image of. That is their call.

My call remains as it was in post #2, that the stamp looks perfectly genuine to me if I was asked to make a judgment. For a few reasons, that I will not go into here to assist forgers. :idea:
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by jrg »

Global Administrator wrote:
I gather from the posts above there were only twelve (12) different large OS pin postions in the short life of that Large perfin. Correct?
Incorrect.

You have made an assumption that is not supported by any evidence known to PCNZA.

There were twelve different devices in use at any one time.

Do you have any evidence that, during the life of the large OS, the same 12 devices were always used? That, at no time was one of the devices damaged and replaced? If so, we'd love to see such evidence.

Until we do, we can only say that we do not have a match on any of the twelve devices known from the complete sheet we have examined. That is not sufficient grounds to call something else a fake. But it is sufficient for PCNZA to not certify such a puncture.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Benson »

jrg,

are the 12 different devices, as you call them numbered in order of the position in a row. You keep on mentioning complete sheet, does that mean that the different devices are in the same position in a row or spread out in the sheet,

David B.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Rod Perry »

jrg wrote:
Global Administrator wrote:
I gather from the posts above there were only twelve (12) different large OS pin postions in the short life of that Large perfin. Correct?
Incorrect.

You have made an assumption that is not supported by any evidence known to PCNZA.

There were twelve different devices in use at any one time.

Do you have any evidence that, during the life of the large OS, the same 12 devices were always used? That, at no time was one of the devices damaged and replaced? If so, we'd love to see such evidence.

Until we do, we can only say that we do not have a match on any of the twelve devices known from the complete sheet we have examined. That is not sufficient grounds to call something else a fake. But it is sufficient for PCNZA to not certify such a puncture.
John, might the heavy emphasis upon that single sheet provide insufficient philatelic biodiversity for a more balanced assessment of this complex subject?

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David Coath
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Coath »

Glen

You are a combative soul. I will not bother learning your quote system, I will simply not bother coming back.

I suggested that you used a straw man argument but saying that I had said that the 2 pound OS's on Roos were forged when I said no such thing. And now you use the same cheap debating tool again, by attributing a warped methodology of your own creation that bears no resemblance to what I have posted. The only thing I said about records was that they are sometimes flawed but that they are evidence. I then went onto say that sighting unrecorded items is also evidence. And that these need to be weighed against each other.

And I repeat that you have not addressed things that I have actually said in response to your statements in your post of:

"Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 14:06:01 pm
Well done Kainnikanada. :)Yes 100% genuine, as Rod Perry and I surmised."

When in fact Kannikanada's excellent work, albeit with tools far less sophisticated that those used by John at the PCNZA , and his later comparisons showed that both the double strikes were different and then that the bottom strike did not match a true strike of the large OS. But not compared to the full range of variations as the PCNZA measurements are. Again evidence but not certainty.

These are things that I have actually said that you have failed to address and are not fabrications of your mind that suits your apparent pathological need to bully and be seen to be correct. Frankly I am never quite sure if I am going to get Dr Jekyll or Mr Hyde. Top be fair it has been entertaining.

And then while other posters like Duke Prince and Allanswood are actually posting real information you go on one of your flights of self-aggrandisement, that you need to keep for your book.

Only to return with another and repeated false claim about what I have said:

"David, as you have been advised several times already in this thread, and clearly do not want to read, there were ZERO forged Kangaroos OS perfins reported before WW2 AFAIK, so why keep obfuscating that there were? Indeed I'd suggest before as late as the 1970s they were unknown - WHY? - as they were worth LESS retail than umtampered with stamps. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:"

I have never made this claim, I would never make such a claim, because I am not a big talking show pony covering up for some deeply embedded inadequacy. That is you Glen. You construct false statements and arguments and attribute them to people so that you can pretend to be correct and superior. Honestly you need help, professional help.

And if we missed the fabricated point I never made you "repeat it " in larger font but thankfully sparing me your childish emotes.

And having showcased in this long and torturous post, a disturbing mix of abject ignorance and certainty, you finally state:

"The 1d Roo above seems OK to me on the scan for several reasons, but I do not own it, never have, and in the case of OS perfins have not examined it, which is VERY important - and oddly nor has the Perfin Society as far as I know?"

Knowing full well from an earlier email sent to you and others, that the PCNZA has viewed a number of 1200 scans of this double strike that were graciously provided by Status. And also knowing full well via a very detailed description of the measuring process that we do not need to see the stamp but can provide an opinion from a scan alone.

Having said that I note and appreciate your qualification that such things can be expertised by scan alone, saying : "Some can be dismissed as fakes from scans alone, we all know that. ". I am not sure all of us do.

And as your post (thankfully) comes to a crescendo with the the aid of bold and red you make a remarkably good point.

It is a point that shows that you have failed to read the posts that have been made on your site , but it is a good point never the less. So lets celebrate it. One of your best, as follows:

"IF the Perfin Society is saying one or both of these 2 x 1d Red OS punctures are fake, simply state that. Right now it is like being half pregnant. If these punctures allegedly do not match the 12 known puncture types, as has been stated, call it a fake - it must CLEARLY be one or the other.

As I have typed about 1,000 times here ............... :lol: :lol: :lol:"

As John has said, we have neither precise records of procedures or personal accounts of the manner of these strikes, so as conservative and careful students of our study, we do not make the statements of certainty that you seem so comfortable with. We carefully make our measurements and we do these multiple times, at remote locations and then compare empirical results with allowances for variation and error. You have been told this.

The statement that has been made and repeated, is that neither of the strikes fit our database of true strikes and as such it would not be be given a PCNZA certificate. But being conservative, and not a big noting self important tosser, (time for the mirror here Glen) we qualify our opinion on the slim possibility that there is a factor outside our knowledge and measurements that may explain this double strike. We doubt it, but accept that we cannot know everything. As I have alluded to before I favour the view of Bertrand Russell on this who said: “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.”

Now Glen , I must apologise , I have been most offensive to you, but frankly you deserve it and worse.

As a final thought before Glen deletes this and it is never seen again (I have kept a copy if anyone wants it) can I please congratulate the other people who have posted on this item with information, knowledge , images , experience, questions, co operation and the desire for knowledge, you are "Lions being lead by Donkeys"

All the very best to you all and Glen if I never hear from you or see you again I will have lived a wonderful life

David

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by jrg »

David Benson wrote: are the 12 different devices, as you call them numbered in order of the position in a row. You keep on mentioning complete sheet, does that mean that the different devices are in the same position in a row or spread out in the sheet,
David, the 12 devices are fixed in place, and correspond to the 12 columns in a sheet of 120 (2 panes of 60).

So left pane stamps 1, 7, 13, etc are always struck by device 1; stamps 2, 8, 14 etc by device 2, and so on.

Right pane stamps 1, 7, 13 etc are always struck by device 7; stamps 2, 8, 14 etc by device 8.
John

Looking for used pre-decimal OS/NSW and G/NSW state perfins, and NWPI KGV overprints.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

David Coath ... so your response to being caught out red-handed, to having no proof of anything, is to hurl around personal insults and abuse - - very classy stuff. Fine adult debating style, to vainly try and prove your non existent points. You have covered PCNZA in credit posting on their behalf. I'll leave it all there, so when your 'head clears' (coff) you might wish you had not posted it. :idea:

So, wading thru your painfully tortured and garbled and mangled mess mix of quotes, and posts, and abuse, that are not differentiated in any way (QUOTE is REALLY not hard trust me, to those of average IQ!) the FACTS still remain -

1. You can supply ZERO evidence of forged Kangaroo OS perfins existing pre-war, as I stated several times was the case. Despite imputing and claiming they did and obfuscating in all directions around that matter. You are wrong. You are the king of PROOF - let's see some for a change, instead of childish insults. :idea:

2. You impute both the £2 Small Multi OS above cannot be genuine, as you cannot see printer records or PROOF of them. Your call. You are alone in that view globally I'd suggest, even Kellow now agrees, but we cannot all have common sense, and stamp knowledge. Welcome back to 1870 style, naval gazing blinkered vision!. :lol: :lol: :lol:

3. NO forged OS Perfin, short of the very crudest jokes, can be verified by PCNZA as fakes, as it is agreed by JRG above, and now by you it seems, that even the short lived Large OS punctures cannot be verified with any certainty at all, as no records exist (your favourite crutch!) to show what was used, and when, and by whom. So for Small OS there is zero chance.

4. Despite this huge shortcoming, PCNZA appears capable of cheerfully "exercising" OS perfins without ever seeing them. Very clever. PCNZA are the only stamp body on the planet who can do that. As you clearly verify, you generally have no idea whatever if perfins are fake or not, so I guess that does not surprise folks. Who needs to INSPECT the darn things, or carefully check the perfin holes under magnification, or check whether ink runs into those holes on used stamps, and other such really trivial detail any real expertisers would employ!!

Signed -

"big noting self important tosser"

(A "tosser" who still believes these perfins are very likely genuine, as does Rod Perry and Chris Ceremuga. We have over 100 years full time stamp experience between us. And David Coath has ........ )
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Benson »

jrg,

thanks, got it,

The other way of proving it as genuine (or not) would be plate the stamp and the position of the punched OS. if they match, most probably OK but if not, then fake.

David B.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by jrg »

Rod Perry wrote: John, might the heavy emphasis upon that single sheet provide insufficient philatelic biodiversity for a more balanced assessment of this complex subject?
Rod
Good point Rod. Our overall database includes many more stamps than just the sheet. Any stamp with a plateable variety allows us to be close to certain as to which device was used to puncture that stamp. I say "close to certain" because we have all seen examples of an OS puncture in the left or right selvedge, meaning the sheet was fed so badly (deliberately?) that all 12 devices struck stamps one column away from their expected position.

At the risk of boring everyone silly, in statistical terms there is a minimum population size required to give reliable measurements. We exceed this minimum in our database.

Our main use of the sheet stamps on their own is to provide a base set of known examples of specific devices, because we know from the sheet that it was correctly positioned when punctured. So we know for certain that we have 10 examples of each of the 12 devices.
John

Looking for used pre-decimal OS/NSW and G/NSW state perfins, and NWPI KGV overprints.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Allanswood »

John, I've always assumed that the row of dies was a single drilled plate of steel (as a top and bottom pair). Is this not the case and they were actually 12 separate (lose) die's screwed down?

I could understand that the small OS (thinking KGV here), might have needed replacing from being worn and if that's the case then we could end up with 24 measured die's?
Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
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