1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoughts?

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by fossick »

Stamps with a known provenance to said die should reveal a suitable comparison for the dot connectors 8)

Regards

John G

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

Yes, that was a big loss to the Aussie philatelic perfin world, Greg - I cannot remember but was there a reason for destroying it?

I'm pretty sure from memory that the PCNZA and another association wanted it to be kept for posterity and future checking, but why this didn't eventuate, I have no idea.

Will have to do some re-reading of the thread when I get time.

As John just said, known forgeries from this device would easily be found out with the 'dot connectors' methodology, one would assume.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Lakatoi 4 »

Allanswood wrote:And it's a crying shame that once outed, the device was apparently dedtroyed. It could have been measured and used for comparative reasearch. Afrer all it was a single die used repeatedly and it would seem over a long period of time.
This device should have been sent for safe keeping and as a compariive expertising tool to the RPSV. The fact that apparently nobody knows if it has been destroyed is a major problem and will always be.

If it was to be destroyed then it should have been done under a similar procedure to the destruction of forged CDS's and other obliterators that was carried out by the Royal Sydney Philatelic Club about 60 years ago.

The Club came into possession of a number of forging implements obviously made by a skilled toolmaker. They included virtually perfect copies of implements from very early NSW, Victoria, British New Guinea, etc.

The decision was made to destroy these and it was decided to take a print of each forged cancellation, use a file to create an X across the face of each implement. Prints were then made of the defacements and a legal Deed drawn up with all the details, prints, etc. which was duly signed by Club Officers.

The implements were then taken as required by the Deed "to the deepest part of Sydney Harbour" where they were dropped overboard.

Somewhere I have a copy of that original Deed which formed part of a presentation I gave on BNG forgeries at Australia 2013.
Tony
"A cancelled stamp tells part of the story, a cover tells it all"

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

If the comments above are referring to the infamous Blue Owl Stamps "OS" perfin forging matter, I feel sure the forged OS stamps and the forging equipment did NOT end up with the PCNZA, which is course is where they SHOULD be been sent.

The entire Blue Owl saga was handled appallingly by APTA, as the thread below shows clearly, as Jude Koch had many good Melbourne mates on the Committee and had been on their Committee as well. It it were not for stampboards and the continued and unrelenting global posts from here, I am sure nothing much would have occurred.

This is what I posted back in 2011 -

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28978&start=480

Global Administrator - in 2011 wrote:
- ADMIN NOTE -
This thread is relating to forged 'OS' perfin stamps, and aggressive ebay shill bidding, and offering 'gassed' mint toned stamps as "fine and fresh" etc. Whether Blue Owl did that, or Max Stern or Stanley Gibbons, I'd be just as angry, it was hurting the industry, and the standing of the real dealers with decades of experience and straight dealing.

We need to see what can be done to stop this dealer offering more of the same in future, and recommend APTA punishes him in some appropriate way for what he has done already.

Ideally as many have commented, the forged and altered stamps will ideally all be handed over to APTA in the first instance, along with all the associated forging equipment and dies etc.

Clearly this has never been done as APTA have stated, as faked stamps were offered openly for sale on the Blue Owl website as of yesterday, running into the $1000s each retail. Details above.

And the forging equipment is as far as we know in a drawer, or hole in the ground, able to be used again at any time, and is certainly not in APTA hands, or with the Perfin Society, or the Police.

The Perfin Club of Australia
have officially contacted APTA in writing several times expressing their dismay at this turn of events, (I was copied in) and offered to accept the forged perfin stamps and all the forging equipment, for their reference collection in safe keeping.

That is where it all should be, so it is forever off the market, out of ANY dealer hands. They can presumably publish a summary of how it was used, and how to detect it, in a future journal, and thus better protect all collectors of this material going forward.

This club has a member here from their Committee, who is designated to post of on their behalf.
The next post was from John Graham - "jrg" -
jrg wrote:Just one minor clarification - it's the Perfin Club of New Zealand and Australia, to give it its correct title. But always referred to by me as the PCNZA, for obvious reasons <g>

And yes, I have written directly to Tony Shields, President of APTA, along the lines Glen has mentioned.
As far as I know this OS perfin forging equipment has NEVER been seen again, many years later, and is not in the hands of the PCNZA - where of course it SHOULD have gone, or the RPSV.

PCNZA formally requested it all from the APTA President, and it appears they were ignored.

It appears all this Blue Owl Stamps OS faking equipment is still "allegedly" is in possession of APTA, or an APTA dealer, (not that anyone here knows for sure I'd suspect) and when I see the Federal Police hand over juicy drug hauls to the nearest druggie for "safe keeping", I'll agree that is a great idea!

126 members here voted on APTA's ham fisted handling of this sorry mess, and only 2% felt they did a good job - even the most woeful of politicians rate better in the polls than that. Even Donald Trump scores about 30% approval! :idea:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=29546

Six years on, it is not too late for APTA to have an outbreak of common sense, and now forward all this forged "OS" material and Blue Owl Stamps faking implements material onto PCNZA for SAFE keeping, and as a fine forgery reference, upon which an article might be written in their Journal. Which is where it all should have gone originally of course.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Allanswood »

The equipment was, it seems, destroyed.

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28978&p=2147935

From that post by Numisphil:

"1. Jude Koch of Blue Owl Stamps has withdrawn the reperforated stamps and fake OS perfins from his website and will pass the stamps over to APTA President Tony Shields. They will never reappear on the market. The perforating equipment has been destroyed and disposed of. ."

However it's all just become historical words without any shred of proof. Destroyed by whom, verified and witnessed?
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by doc »

Allanswood wrote:
However it's all just become historical words without any shred of proof. Destroyed by whom, verified and witnessed?
Correct, the PCNZA was where it all should have gone, and they repeatedly asked for that to occur.

As the thread link Allanswood adds, clearly shows the forged OS stamps were not removed from the BlueOwl website as APTA glibly claimed. And as a member posted after this totally unverifed statement by APTA, and their arguably illegal actions -
The Pom wrote:
john6625 wrote:
numisphil wrote:1. Jude Koch of Blue Owl Stamps has withdrawn the reperforated stamps and fake OS perfins from his website and will pass the stamps over to APTA President Tony Shields. They will never reappear on the market. The perforating equipment has been destroyed and disposed of.
Surely the stamps and perforating equipment is evidence if there is any criminal charges ever laid?
Correct.
According to VIC Law for the charge of Destruction of evidence,
Crimes Act 1958 - SECT 254

Destruction of evidence

254. Destruction of evidence

(1) A person who-

(a) knows that a document or other thing of any kind is, or is reasonably likely to be, required in evidence in a legal proceeding; and

(b) either-

(i) destroys or conceals it or renders it illegible, undecipherable or incapable of identification; or

(ii) expressly, tacitly or impliedly authorises or permits another person to destroy or conceal it or render it illegible, undecipherable or incapable of identification and that other person does so; and

(c) acts as described in paragraph (b) with the intention of preventing it from being used in evidence in a legal proceeding-

is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to level 6 imprisonment (5 years maximum) or a level 6 fine or both. Notes 1. Document is defined in section 38 of the Interpretation of Legislation Act 1984. 2. The maximum fine that may be imposed on a body corporate found guilty of an offence against this section is 3000 penalty units: see Sentencing Act 1991 s. 113D.

(2) This section applies with respect to a legal proceeding, whether the proceeding is one that is in progress or is to be, or may be, commenced in the future.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Allanswood wrote:The equipment was, it seems, destroyed.

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28978&p=2147935

From that post by Numisphil:

"1. Jude Koch of Blue Owl Stamps has withdrawn the reperforated stamps and fake OS perfins from his website and will pass the stamps over to APTA President Tony Shields. They will never reappear on the market. The perforating equipment has been destroyed and disposed of. ."

However it's all just become historical words without any shred of proof. Destroyed by whom, verified and witnessed?
The very same Numisphil - (Tony Corbisiero) who assured us above APTA has the entire Blue Owl "OS" forging mess under total control, posted earlier on this thread, that we should post the reasons we KNOW "OS" things are forged right here.

An incredibly stupid and brain dead comment of course, but totally in keeping with the High IQ and incredibly useful input posts from Tony here in the past. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why? As the Greek forger reads every word posted here Tony, and if we followed your stupid suggestion his efforts would improve. Durrrhhhh.

So here is a golden chance for Tony - who was once on the APTA Committee, believe it or not, to do something POSITIVE for once, to get this forger banned from ebay, and report these 2 lots below.

APTA are not interested these days as they have no leadership vision, but COLLECTORS of perfins might be FAR more motived to report this spiv right now, to protect the value of their perfin collections.

These 2 fakes below he has whipped in recent days to roughly mimic the genuine pieces that are discussed in this thread. Typical fuzzy scans to disguise his crude perfin work. He has posted totally false backgrounds to them both of course, also breaching ebay rules. And the former is Fraud Squad stuff really.

ebay scammer cosmos121 was banned once by ebay and somehow talked his way back on - lets get him banned AGAIN - recent fakes are outlined here -

https://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=78319

Ebay have revamped the rules re forged and faked and replica and counterfeit stamps.

Sellers now MUST mark fakes indelibly on reverse, and load a photo of that marking into the lot description.

Alterations (that includes forged perfins, overprints and cancels) and repairs MUST be noted now if known to seller, and sellers offering conga lines of the same fakes clearly DO know!

https://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/currstamps.html#replica_stamps
Image
Image
Also on EVERY ebay lot there is a “Report Item” icon – whether the sale is ended or not.

Reporting that via the simple drop-down options as shown below is a 5 second operation -
Image

Image
If ebay gets 5 or 10 reports on any given items they WILL generally take notice. They usually warn the user and remove the lot. Sellers getting several such removed lots are in trouble.

Let’s use ‘people power’ to stop this material getting offered.

Everyone “hoping” others act, will get nothing done - like most things in life! It takes teamwork and a Community Spirit, and the dodgy and misleading lots will be FAR less.

ebay now have set up a fast new portal JUST to report suspected sellers of forged stamps at - https://tinyurl.com/ebayfakes - also found at - https://www.ebay.com/scw - there is space for 10,000 characters in your reply, so all the relevant info can be added. Unlike most ebay complaint forms that allow just 100 characters etc.

Please take a moment to do BOTH ….. do the “Report Item” drop-down, and give a summary on the link above.

Most likely they will go to 2 different ebay staffers, and that is double trouble for the fakers.

Some staffers ignore such stuff, others are more pro-active – it is a lottery.

However several reports on any single item can be seen by all staffers looking at it, and that generally gets some action.

Even if 4 staffers have ignored it, the 5th staffer might see 5 reports and decide to act etc. :mrgreen:

"People Power" - never under-estimate the value of it! 8)

https://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/currstamps.html#replica_stamps
Image
cosmos121

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1913-Penny-Red-TRIAL-with-Double ... 3294604884


1913 Penny Red TRIAL with Double OS perforation Large & Small Mint.
This stamp originates from the H.F. McNess sales from the 1970's.

This were done as only trials NOT for postal use so therefore it is impossible for them to be genuinely used.

This stamp has been checked by leading perfin experts and they have unanimously agreed that the punctured 'OS' fits exactly with the parameters of certified genuine examples from the Australia Post archival sales therefore any USED copies are and can only be forgeries.


Image
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1913-1-2d-green-First-wmk-with-V ... 3235285515

longjo5 another of the Sydney Faker IDs -

1913 1/2d green First wmk with VARIETY, DOUBLE perf large OS used & SCARCE!!!
This stamp was found in an old estate collection which hasn't been touched for decades,
and is genuine in all aspects.

Report this crude junk when in there too please. Totally fake CTO cancels of course and High School grade OS overprints.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1931-2d-and-3d-Kingsford-Smith-O ... 3235300068


longjo5
Image
Conga line of forged overprints and forged perfins sold to the Bunnies by longjo5 in recent week is below. They are so dumb those Bunny Buyers they NEVER learn -

https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/longjo5/m.html?item=253235300068 ... 6732.m1684

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Chris Ceremuga »

Wilbaer,

I think you are totally misinterpreting the situation.
And I think you have got things totally the wrong way around.

Your comment that I am “....not very open to potentially new scientific means of helping advance the dilemma….” is totally baseless, and could not be further from the truth.

I do have a scientific background (BSc with Honours).

While the self-declared “experts” from the PCNZA that have been posting in this thread, as far as I know,
have ZERO scientific background, and zero experience with the proper application of scientific methodologies or scientific procedures.

eg: John Graham puts a “BA” after his name = “Bachelor of Arts”

So I am not sure where did you get the fantasy story about “scientifically-based people at PCNZA” ???
Or the fantasy story about “very exact science of measurements….” ???
Or the fantasy story about “scientific evidence…” ???

as in fact not a single shred of any evidence whatsoever has been produced so far in this thread by the self-declared “experts” from the PCNZA ….


I would always be most thrilled to hear about any new scientific methodologies that can be applied to aid in the expertizing process.

And I am definitely not excluding that measurement comparison & location plotting software could be a very useful tool to assist in philatelic expertizing matters.


However, what I have seen so far is flawed methodology producing totally nonsense results.



That the self-declared “experts” from PCNZA claim that their methodology & results are “scientific”, does not mean they actually are.

And your comments about “white man's magic” & “beyond the scope and experience of most people” seems to indicate that you are merely in awe of the claims without actually understanding whether they have any scientific basis whatsoever or not.


Image

Image

Image

Everybody can see the overlay comparisons in this thread, which show that the 2 OS perfins on this stamp ARE IDENTICAL.

And I am sure that if one were to do proper scientific measurements to plot the relative hole positions of the 2 perfins, then proper scientific measurement results will show that the 2 OS perfins on this stamp perfectly match each other.


(of course for any measurement comparisons to be scientifically valid, one has to also correctly calculate the margin of error etc)

In contrast the self-declared “experts” from the PCNZA categorically claimed that the 2 strikes were “vastly different” & “100% certain that not the same” based on the totally nonsense “measurement” results of their flawed methodology.


As I mentioned before I would be extremely happy to have a bet with anybody about the authenticity of this item for 10 times the asking price of the stamp = $25,000, or for 100 times = $250,000 if they prefer.
Chris (Krzysztof) Ceremuga - Professional Philatelic Expert & Consultant
http://www.ceremuga.net

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by corpman »

As I mentioned before I would be extremely happy to have a bet with anybody about the authenticity of this item for 10 times the asking price of the stamp = $25,000, or for 100 times = $250,000 if they prefer.
Hey Ceremuga

What a clever way to back up your authenticity claims.

Just offer to bet people amounts of money that they can't afford to pay.

This is a really scientific approach.

Who will put up your stake money if you lose the bet?

Let me guess ........

Is it your boss at Status for whom you have happily certified thousands of his items as genuine over the last two decades, knowing full well that the bunny buyers will never get another opinion on items they bought, because you "the great certifier" has deemed these items to be genuine just because you said so?

Frankly I prefer a unbiased committee (not a sole person) who combine experience along with scientific analysis to form an opinion, who are also not swayed by their employer.

And of course you are happy to give monetary guarantees. If in the extremely unlikely event that one of your certificates is challenged and somehow you agree that you made a mistake, (of course you want everyone to believe that you are infallible), you would (I mean your boss would), be more that happy to refund the money for the forgery that you have called genuine as it really has not cost anything in the first place.

What a great way to make money from nothing, just like Stanley Gibbons increasing the catalogue values of the investment items they have peddled over the years with similar guarantees like yours.

Also, I love the way that you reissue certificates for items with existing certificates from the BPA, RPS etc, just to show how much of an expert you are, even though they did all the initial work in the first place. Are you doing this to try and make us believe that the other committees agree with you?

You also like to deride the PCNZA and probably anyone else who goes against you.

Don't get me wrong, I am not with or in any way associated with the PCNZA and they will know my opinion of them in due course, as there is much wrong with them as well.

And dare I say that most of the certificates you issue are correct, in fact most of them would be no-brainers. And because of this you want people to think that all your certs are correct.

You have built yourself a nice little fortified castle where no one would want to challenge and question and you obviously use this to your advantage. While this is probably good business for you and your boss (I.S.Wright of Status International, for those who do not know) it is not the kind of transparency that is needed in philatelic circles.

I would love to see your reply.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Chris Ceremuga »

Hey Corpman.



No I am not going to be replying to the mixture of fantasy stories & factually incorrect claims that you have posted.


Life is too short to waste on debating with nameless online trolls.
Chris (Krzysztof) Ceremuga - Professional Philatelic Expert & Consultant
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Corpman well as far as I can see no-one has taken up Chris on his bet .. and little wonder, as the double perfins are perfectly genuine, to most who have ventured an informed view.

I actually am not sure if we need a Bookmaker's Licence etc to accept wagers, so lets hope no bets are made. :mrgreen:

I have no idea if any PCNZA Committee members have scientific qualifications - and really it does not matter - I suspect no-one on RPSL or BPA committees do either?

I do recall reading recently they within PCNZA had some very complicated sounding measurements they used, so there seems to be some science of some kind in there being used, so not sure why they got the 1d double OS so wrong.

Be nice to see BOTH sides of this camp take a moment to report this ebay spiv above, who is faking these things on a whim. Junk grade efforts as usual but sadly he IQ of many ebay buyers does not get into double digits, so a match made in heaven.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by corpman »

Hey Ceremuga

Is that your best reply. To call me a faceless nameless troll.

Why don't you reply.

Let me quote Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men"

You can't handle the truth!!!

I am stating exactly what the majority of the well informed trade are thinking.

For instance let me quote from the conditions of sale from one of Australia's leading stamp dealers who has a whole lot more of experience that you ever will and has been in the business actively trading while you where still in your diapers.

If you wish to have any item expertised by a recognised, independent Expert Committee you are most welcome to do so.

The only Expert Certificates accepted by me, in respect to the above are from well-established independent multi-member Committees such as RPS and BPA (London), APEX or Philatelic Foundation (USA), etc. I do NOT regard the personal opinions of undoubtedly well-meaning individuals, or anyone working in-house for dealers or auction houses, as "Expert Committee Certificates" for the purposes of return of any lot.


Also, do you deny what I posted above earlier?

So basically because you are facing some tough questions, you want to pick up your toys and go home.

Taking the easy gutless way out.

How sad......

Or maybe a smart move by you. You obviously like to pick your battles and totally obfuscate things by offering bets against those who oppose your opinions.

Once again, don't get me wrong, I think your 1d Double Large OS is more than likely genuine on the balance of probabilities as far as one can say, and had this been my collecting field I would be satisfied as to its authenticity.

However I do object as to your methods and "might is right" attitude to force your point home.

And to stoop as low as to call me a troll, well that says it all your holiness.

How about some real answers instead of your ostrich "head in the ground" tactics.

The philatelic world wants to know and you will be judged accordingly.
Last edited by corpman on 06 Nov 2017 00:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by The Pom »

MODERATOR COMMENT

Personal battles elsewhere please gentlemen. This thread is about a 1d Red stamp and not about the general standards of Mr Ceremuga's expertising.

Back on topic please.
Always on the lookout for Australian pre decimal First Day Covers.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by corpman »

With all due respect Ceremuga opened the door by his scathing attack on the PCNZA.

He has the ability to issue certificates and as such he has the responsibility to back up his claims.

I am trying to be as fair and unbiased as possible.

I DO think that Ceremuga is indeed expert in many fields of philately and for the most part I do have immense confidence in his certificates (including the 1d Double Large OS which is the topic here).

In fact, I have utilized Ceremuga's services on many occasions and have been very satisfied with his assessments.

However I am raising what I believe some very valid background points which I believe the philatelic world wants answered.

Maybe we should conduct a poll on whether we want to see Ceremuga respond or not? Now there's an idea as I hate to be the lone wolf.

The truth will come out and absolute undeniable truth will prevail.

I am just echoing what most reasonable people are thinking.

I am just after honest answers for all.
Last edited by corpman on 06 Nov 2017 00:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

corpman ... you are wandering off on a tangent here. Lets stick to the OS perfins please. :roll:

The phrases you quoted are from my own Terms and Conditions and are MINE alone. And you should have stated that. An Independent unpaid Committee of several folks arrives at a overall consensus position, and that seems valid to me - THEY have "no skin in the game". Remember APTA issues all members with a blank pad of glamorous official looking forms they can write their own "CERTIFICATES" on - at will, and none need to referred back to APTA! It is open slather.

An APTA "CERTIFICATE" from Fred Scmuckenheim from Wagga, on Samoa QV overprints does not necessarily mean that view is correct. It generally means Fred had some Samoa to sell! BlueOwl possibly did issue his own APTA "certs" for instance, on perfins, so hence my specific conditions that COMMITTEES are all I personally accept. John Bozic writes endless JB "Certificates" for the weird and wonderful stuff he peddles for instance.

Some genius on ebay this week outlayed $1,200 for this Gem with a John Bozic "PHILATELIC EXPERT CERTIFICATE" (sic) which of course cheerfully omitted to mention the torn off top RH corner. What a TOTAL JOKE.

Image

Ian or Alan Pitt from Renniks/Lighthouse could write an APTA Cert for a MUH £1 Kangaroo, or for Madagascar overprints, and they would not have the first idea about either! Hence my own stipulations.

Glen

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by corpman »

Glen

I am sticking to the OS perfins.

I agree with you and Ceremuga that like I said before, they are genuine in so far as one can say.

I am also examining the background of the certifiers as this will strengthen their opinions on the stamps.

It is obvious that you have no vested interest in this stamp and that you base your opinion on decades of experience in dealing with these issues.

However the same cannot be said for Ceremuga. His position and tactics raise a lot of questions about his ability to be totally unbiased.

He has motive and means to get away with the equivalent of philatelic murder the way he plays god.

I just think it is too much power and he is invited to respond and explain himself and to allay our fears.

Also I do acknowledge that the following is from Glen's conditions of sale from his website:

If you wish to have any item expertised by a recognised, independent Expert Committee you are most welcome to do so.

The only Expert Certificates accepted by me, in respect to the above are from well-established independent multi-member Committees such as RPS and BPA (London), APEX or Philatelic Foundation (USA), etc. I do NOT regard the personal opinions of undoubtedly well-meaning individuals, or anyone working in-house for dealers or auction houses, as "Expert Committee Certificates" for the purposes of return of any lot.

Hence we are both in agreeance that experienced multimember committees are far more suitable that solo cowboys with vested interests when it comes to issuing certificates.

I have seen Ceremuga on ebay sell many forgery prone stamps with Ceremuga certificates. Wow what a saving as he doesn't have to pay himself for what will always be a favourable certificate on his own stamps.

Isn't this exactly what that fine quality dealer John Bozic does (especially when he omits to mention torn off corners)??

Food for thought.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by mobbor »

I've already made my position clear: I wouldn't buy it under any circumstances. But I thought I should point out that, as I understand it, in real life John Graham has an actuarial background- you can't get much more mathematical than that.
mobbor

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Allanswood »

Corpman do us a favour, open a window and stick your head out into the sun...and our village will be safe again.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by corpman »

Dear Mr Allenswood,

Your comment above is not appreciated.

I am merely adding to the discussion and raising very valid points.

Why do you find the need to make a personal attack on me?

Why not direct the same remarks to most of the previous contributors to this thread who are constantly criticizing each other etc.

I would like to point the following Stampboards Rule:

34. Personal Attacks

We encourage a healthy exchange of opinions. If you disagree with another member, challenge the opinion or idea - not the person. Personal attacks, insults, name-calling, and "flaming" will not be tolerated and will be removed. The violator(s) will be subject to disciplinary action. You may challenge others' points of view and opinions, but please do so respectfully and thoughtfully.

Do NOT retaliate or respond to something you regard as a personal attack. Too often, when an initial attack is made, others join the fray and, instead of becoming part of the solution, they become part of the problem. If you feel that you are being attacked or harassed - contact a moderator by clicking on this red "Report This Post" icon found at lower right of EVERY post


Please let's keep this discussion reasonable and factual.

Also let's not try and hide the truth under the carpet.

Frankly I expect much better from you.

Please contribute something relevant to this discussion.

Comments like yours do no good to anyone and all they do is to derail the thread.

Your understanding and cooperation will be appreciated.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by satsuma »

Image


This thread is not about the quality of certificates, or the quality of expertisers, it is about members thoughts on a particular stamp.

Let's get back to that.

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Post by corpman »

Yes satsuma you are correct.

It is about member's thoughts of a particular along with its accompanying certificate which becomes part of the total package.

Like a well run investigation, all aspects and background details are to be examined.

Only this will give a clear picture.

Members thoughts will be guided by what the "experts" say.

Everything is relevant. (Except of course any unprovoked personal attacks)

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Allanswood »

I'm sorry Corpman, but you've done your usual, jumped in late and stuffed another thread to the point that from here I doubt hardly anyone who was interested will actually read on or make further posts.

You jump all self righteous guns blazing, flame away, insult, berate and vilify other contributors in technicolour and then spout rules that you break without pause for breath.

It's obvious that you haven't bothered to read the whole thread and I sincerely doubt you even exist and are the alter ego of some other member firing away from the comfort of your commode in anonymity.

You're as helpful to the discussion as a square cricket ball.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Lets quit the squabbling please folks.

Please put the same energy into reporting this spiv to ebay via these 2 fake account handles and do something POSITIVE (we have had had FIFTY of his accounts closed down so far) than is being spent nit-picking. :)
Global Administrator wrote:
APTA are not interested these days as they have no leadership vision, but COLLECTORS of perfins might be FAR more motived to report this spiv right now, to protect the value of their perfin collections.

These 2 fakes below he has whipped in recent days to roughly mimic the genuine pieces that are discussed in this thread. Typical fuzzy scans to disguise his crude perfin work. He has posted totally false backgrounds to them both of course, also breaching ebay rules. And the former is Fraud Squad stuff really.

ebay scammer cosmos121 was banned once by ebay and somehow talked his way back on - lets get him banned AGAIN - recent fakes are outlined here -

https://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=78319

Ebay have revamped the rules re forged and faked and replica and counterfeit stamps.

Sellers now MUST mark fakes indelibly on reverse, and load a photo of that marking into the lot description.

Alterations (that includes forged perfins, overprints and cancels) and repairs MUST be noted now if known to seller, and sellers offering conga lines of the same fakes clearly DO know!

https://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/currstamps.html#replica_stamps
Image
Image
Also on EVERY ebay lot there is a “Report Item” icon – whether the sale is ended or not.

Reporting that via the simple drop-down options as shown below is a 5 second operation -
Image[/url]

Image
If ebay gets 5 or 10 reports on any given items they WILL generally take notice. They usually warn the user and remove the lot. Sellers getting several such removed lots are in trouble.

Let’s use ‘people power’ to stop this material getting offered.

Everyone “hoping” others act, will get nothing done - like most things in life! It takes teamwork and a Community Spirit, and the dodgy and misleading lots will be FAR less.

ebay now have set up a fast new portal JUST to report suspected sellers of forged stamps at - https://tinyurl.com/ebayfakes - also found at - https://www.ebay.com/scw - there is space for 10,000 characters in your reply, so all the relevant info can be added. Unlike most ebay complaint forms that allow just 100 characters etc.

Please take a moment to do BOTH ….. do the “Report Item” drop-down, and give a summary on the link above.

Most likely they will go to 2 different ebay staffers, and that is double trouble for the fakers.

Some staffers ignore such stuff, others are more pro-active – it is a lottery.

However several reports on any single item can be seen by all staffers looking at it, and that generally gets some action.

Even if 4 staffers have ignored it, the 5th staffer might see 5 reports and decide to act etc. :mrgreen:

"People Power" - never under-estimate the value of it! 8)

https://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/currstamps.html#replica_stamps
Image
cosmos121

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1913-Penny-Red-TRIAL-with-Double ... 3294604884


1913 Penny Red TRIAL with Double OS perforation Large & Small Mint.
This stamp originates from the H.F. McNess sales from the 1970's.

This were done as only trials NOT for postal use so therefore it is impossible for them to be genuinely used.

This stamp has been checked by leading perfin experts and they have unanimously agreed that the punctured 'OS' fits exactly with the parameters of certified genuine examples from the Australia Post archival sales therefore any USED copies are and can only be forgeries.


Image
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1913-1-2d-green-First-wmk-with-V ... 3235285515

longjo5 another of the Sydney Faker IDs -

1913 1/2d green First wmk with VARIETY, DOUBLE perf large OS used & SCARCE!!!
This stamp was found in an old estate collection which hasn't been touched for decades,
and is genuine in all aspects.

Report this crude junk when in there too please. Totally fake CTO cancels of course and High School grade OS overprints.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1931-2d-and-3d-Kingsford-Smith-O ... 3235300068


longjo5
Image
Conga line of forged overprints and forged perfins sold to the Bunnies by longjo5 in recent week is below. They are so dumb those Bunny Buyers they NEVER learn -

https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/longjo5/m.html?item=253235300068 ... 6732.m1684

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by corpman »

I have done my part and reported this crook to ebay on both names.

I only wish that this crook would come on this site so he can be asked some pertinent probing questions.

I suppose Rule 34 does not apply here as this crook is not a member.


Also

Mr Alienswood,

I have read the whole thread and I do exist and I am not anyone's alter ego.

Also I have not broken any rules. I have tried to be civil and courteous.

I only get a bit vociferous to contributors that I feel are obfuscating the facts and I am merely exposing this behavior in a polite and proper way.

I have never personally insulted you, yet the opposite is not true.

Please bear that in mind.

Remember, it's nice to be important, but it is more important to be nice.....

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by josto »

Hi!

Unfortunately I don`t think I`ll ever be able to find out, if this KGV 1d red double perf. OS is genuine, but I can say, that I once found it in an old collection, which seemed to be untouched for a long time, there were several listed flaws in this collection. Surely if it was genuine, it would be worth some dollars!

Image

Image

Greetings

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by corpman »

Hi josto

Looking at your scan, the OS that is more to the right (looking at it from the front) seems to have larger diameter holes than the other one.

What do the experts think?

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by The Pom »

corpman wrote: Also I have not broken any rules. I have tried to be civil and courteous.

I have never personally insulted you, yet the opposite is not true.

Please bear that in mind.

Remember, it's nice to be important, but it is more important to be nice.....
Starting a post with "Hey, Ceremuga" hardly seems to tie in with the above claims....
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by ewen s »

corpman wrote:Hi josto

Looking at your scan, the OS that is more to the right (looking at it from the front) seems to have larger diameter holes than the other one.

What do the experts think?
No expert here, not even close, but those holes look cleaner, larger and fresher.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Kainnikanada »

josto,

The size of the holes of the two 'OS's are different and the offset angle between the two varies for several sets of the pins. The 'OS's are not identical.

Could be indicative of either a forgery or two slightly different configured 'OS' strikes if that was practicable.

The four holes within the ink-filled '0' of the canceller's date (partially covering the 'A' of 'AUSTRALIA') seem weird since the white outline of the paper thickness is apparent. Was the 'OS' punched after the cancel was applied? Just speculation.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Benson »

Corpman,

This was not a very friendly comment from you,

I have seen Ceremuga on ebay sell many forgery prone stamps with Ceremuga certificates. Wow what a saving as he doesn't have to pay himself for what will always be a favourable certificate on his own stamps.
Isn't this exactly what that fine quality dealer John Bozic does (especially when he omits to mention torn off corners)??
David B.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

Back to the 1d double-perfinned Roos !!

Chris,

Thanks for the reply – I was only concerned from your earlier post that you flat-out rejected the PCNZA findings and their validity, but I was not really sure why, since there was no real DETAILED explanation of exactly what their methodology was and yet feel you can dismiss their methodology completely, without having a basis to do so and knowing what exactly it is. Not exactly a scientific approach….
Chris Ceremuga wrote:
(2) I dispute all the specific claims that they have made about the physical characteristics of the perfins on this stamp, as those claims are are simply factually incorrect.

Furthermore, I consider PCNZA's claimed “scientific” methodology of "expertizing" of OS perfins based on measurements from scans to be fatally flawed.

(They are claiming to be "expertizing" items without examining the actual stamps!!!)

I consider such claimed “expertizing" methodology to be without any scientific basis whatsoever, and to be imprecise & inaccurate, and I therefore simply reject its validity.
From what I have gathered from other sources, the methodology is very science/technology based with regards to the mapping of existing patterns, dies etc and they have a geo-spatial mapper who has assisted them in getting to their solutions ( Maybe I erred in my original post by saying the word ‘scientific’ too much where I should have put more of a slant on’ technical/mathematical’).

I think it is fair to say that geo-spacial mapping techniques are a bit beyond the everyday knowledge-base of your average bloke. It is not that I am in awe of such stuff –just that I recognise my lack of knowledge in the area and thus do not see myself as qualified enough to either agree/disagree with it.

But I am aware of the principles and it is certainly technical and very exact. Maybe it would be beneficial for you to actually see (or hear about in detail) how they go about their validation techniques, since you say that you would
Chris Ceremuga wrote:“ always be thrilled to hear about any new scientific methodologies that can be applied to aid the expertising process. And I am definitely not excluding that measurement comparison & location plotting software could be a very useful tool to assist in philatelic expertizing matters” .
I know you probably don’t see eye to eye with the PCNZA at present, it seems, but this could be a GREAT opportunity for both sides to take each other’s methodologies on board and see what common ground you can find.

Now onto other areas of your post which concern me a little bit….you lambast the PCNZA for not having any shred of proof that these perfins are forged/not matching existing die patterns, but yet you do not produce any shred of evidence YOURSELF that backs your opinion of their genuineness either – you allude to something that make you 105% sure that they are genuine, but do not say what it is that leads you to your conclusion. For us guys who are trying to form an opinion on the issue, this is not particularly helpful either – you cannot demand others to post their evidence without you being happy to post yours too.

And finally, to me, your last image shows that the patterns are ANYTHING BUT IDENTICAL. The red “O’ pattern does not even come close to matching the lower OS hole pattern. Look at the punches of the LHS lower punch – there are glaringly massive, uneven gaps when the upper punch is overlaid and they are are off-centre and lower.

Surely this must raise all sorts of flags. And even the upper ones (circa 1 and 2 o’clock) are not uniform in being ‘out’ in the same direction. The 12.30 one has a gap upper right and the lower one at 1 o’clock, the gap is all below the overlayed punch. This is not geometrical at all, which you would surely have to expect from the same die.

This lack of geometry in these gaps would thus exclude paper slippage and variations in the punching within a particular die.

And the overlayed stamp had to be angled to fit this 2nd pattern as best as possible (but not exactly), which would also surely be a bit suspect too (but I guess possible in theory if the sheet was somehow fed in again separately and was not fed in at the same angle as the first).

Was there some sort of ‘positioning’ mechanism on these machines to ensure that punches were even and horizontally close to perfect along the width of a sheet which would also put into question the angle of this 2nd strike compared to the first?

What do other stampboarders think of this image? (the 3rd in Chris’ last post)? I don’t think I would be the only one who is a bit worried by this stamp and its uneven pattern matching when overlayed.

But I have seen neither the actual stamp itself, not PCNZA’s methodology not Chris’ reasoning, so there is still no real concrete proof yet either way but to me, this is quite indicative of a problem at face value.

And if this supposedly matched not one of the dies that are known to be in existence via full sheets and a large database of examples, as the PCNZA state, this must be one of the biggest pointers of all to this being a highly questionable double punch.

I’m tempted to place a bet with you, Chris because from what I can see and what other images/overlays people have posted, these two patterns do NOT match, but I am not sure to whom we could go to in order get any such wager settled to either of our satisfactions ! I fear we may have to agree to disagree on this one …
Last edited by Global Administrator on 07 Nov 2017 11:12, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added pars and spacing and "air" to UNJAM it all - always a great idea on all posts on Bulletin Boards!

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by corpman »

Mr Pom
Starting a post with "Hey, Ceremuga" hardly seems to tie in with the above claims....
This is not meant to be insulting. It is merely directing Ceremuga to the comments that I specifically posted for him. There are no rude or offensive words and I am not making any insulting references.

And how does Ceremuga reply?

This is how:
Hey Corpman.

No I am not going to be replying to the mixture of fantasy stories & factually incorrect claims that you have posted.

Life is too short to waste on debating with nameless online trolls.
And then Aleenswood followed up with:
Corpman do us a favour, open a window and stick your head out into the sun...and our village will be safe again.
As everyone can see, two classy replies.

It is not my intention to insult people, however the same cannot be said for others.

I have raised very valid points as to which Ceremuga is quite free to concede or refute like the educated person he claims to be.

He keeps bring up that he has an Honours degree in Science and he just loves to throw that in our faces.

How about it Ceremuga?

Why don't you reply with hard provable facts to justify yourself, instead of bringing everyone down so you won't have to answer.

Is that the way you operate? Denigrate everyone else so you can avoid the issue.

Your silence is deafening.

Seems that you joined this chatsite in order to defend the double OS perfin for the sake of yourself (you issued the certificate) and your boss (who is well known for overpricing items that he wants us to believe are in a true auction, when in fact they are really his retail price list and then he has the cheek to charge and extra 20% on top).

And then when some questions are raised against you, all you want to do is run for the hills and play the avoidance game.

Not a good look. Members here will be free to infer what they may from your behavior.

Reputation is everything in your business and at the moment your are not inspiring any confidence in yours.

The ball is in your court Ceremuga. How you play it is totally up to you.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by satsuma »

One of the problems I see with the PCNZA method of expertising from scans, as yet undiscussed in this thread, is the inability to give an expert or otherwise opinion as to whether the stamp actually exists.

I'm fairly certain that even with my amateur photoshop skills, I would be able to produce a scan, where each individual OS perforation matched the other with greater than 99% accuracy, especially if mint; but - and it's a big but - the stamp wouldn't actually exist.

I'm not suggesting this is the case here, but if I ventured into online scamming I could list the stamp with my scan, and a scan of the expert opinion, wait out the auction, then take the bunnies money, send them the certificate only and run.

At least, in the case of the "normal till now" expertising process the expertiser knows the stamp actually exists. Perhaps, because of this lack in the PCNZA process, it can't be considered scientific?

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by corpman »

but if I ventured into online scamming I could list the stamp with my scan, and a scan of the expert opinion, wait out the auction, then take the bunnies money, send them the certificate only and run.
And have the buyer put a claim against you, have paypal debit your account, get negative feedback and then run?

Are you for real?

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

Glen - thanks for adding the spacing to my long post. I actually wrote it with some paragraph separations as a word document for that reason, but it compressed somehow when copying into the post. As you said, a lot more readable now !

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by The Pom »

wilbaer wrote:Glen - thanks for adding the spacing to my long post. I actually wrote it with some paragraph separations as a word document for that reason, but it compressed somehow when copying into the post. As you said, a lot more readable now !
Hence the lovely shiny "PREVIEW" button we have. :)

Also, you can edit your posts up to an hour after posting.

Even after all these years, I preview nearly all my posts.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

.
corpman is an American citizen out here on work secondment from Idaho. Americans often refer to each by surnames, in private or in business circles, and there it is not regarded as offensive or rude or aggressive.

'Newman' and 'Kramer' were the names most usual and most often employed in the Seinfeld series etc. I've seen 100s of episodes and am not sure I ever once heard a Christian name used for either. :mrgreen:

Australians are far more familiar and casual, and mostly use first names - or nicknames in social situations. Almost NEVER a surname only, when addressing someone in a social environment as that is regarded as rude. HERE.

I am sure there is no "rule" on it being broken here, but it appears somewhat aggressive to many, to use surnames only.

We are a truly global board with members from more than 150 different countries. In the UK for instance which is far more formal than here, the prefix Mister, or both names, is more widely used to address people etc.

I have a magic solution - please refer to the member by their stampboard user name in posts if you do not care to use their Christian name. Solves any apparent "misunderstanding" that we seem to be seeing here. :idea:

Got it folks? Hope so, as I am not going to type this twice, trust me on that. :wink:
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

The Pom wrote:
wilbaer wrote:Glen - thanks for adding the spacing to my long post. I actually wrote it with some paragraph separations as a word document for that reason, but it compressed somehow when copying into the post. As you said, a lot more readable now !
Hence the lovely shiny "PREVIEW" button we have. :)

Also, you can edit your posts up to an hour after posting.

Even after all these years, I preview nearly all my posts.
I know, Pom - my mistake . It was my first time using a word document before I post (since I wanted to give my reply to Chris some close thought and it got quite involved) and I was in a rush to get to work. I just assumed, wrongly, that the word document formatting would hold up. I shall preview such a wordy response in future.

Chris - this is a bit of a benchmark issue, I believe. I think it would be hugely beneficial to everyone involved to get to the bottom of this particular stamp, since it raises fundamental issues about process for the future. People need to be reassured when going to the trouble and expense of getting their stamps expertised and in this particular case with the perfin, there is very divided opinion about its validity.

Two major players (yourself and the PCNZA) who are entrusted to give us their expert opinions are at loggerheads here and are divided about this stamp and this helps NO-ONE. SO far, the PCNZA have tried to explain in general terms how their process works, but so far, you have not explained your reason for thinking this is genuine at all. This would be most welcome at this point in order for us all to get both sides of the story.

And I have to get this off my chest, as it has been bugging me from the outset - the fact that the revered Arthur Gray brought this to you as a triple has absolutely NO relevance here whatsoever. Glen and others have been talking about providence being so important in general , but the provenance of this triple is absolutely meaningless unless we know where Arthur got this from. And we do not know, it seems.

He brought it to you in 2011 to expertise, but this leaves a circa 30 year span from when the Sydney forger came to prominence until Arthur came in with these stamps.

He could very easily have acquired his triple during this time and thus, unless we have evidence of exactly how he got it, provenance does not enter into the equation here, no matter how often Arthur's name is mentioned. He may have been an esteemed collector and exhibitor, but it does NOT preclude him being caught out by the same stings as the rest of us.

And also, as Rod mentioned earlier, the device nabbed during the Blue Owl saga was thought to have been around pre 1950's, so it could very well have been in use to forge perfins of these Roos way before the major onset of the main culprits in the 80's, unless I am missing something about this device - not having seen it, naturally (maybe it will miraculously re-appear for someone to analyse it !)

Glen - here, you may well have to give a bit of ground too because of this point. Your assertion that 100% absolutely no forgeries are known pre-1980's does not mean this is gospel. The existence and provenance of this device that is dated back to the 1950's pretty much proves that this assertion must be open to question. Such forgeries could have existed and maybe they were better than the 80's versions and it is just that we have all not picked up on them.

Rod - do you have any more info on the provenance of this device that you can share and help this aspect of the discussion too? That would be great.

Looking forward to getting a bit more clarity, hopefully, with this post.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Rod Perry »

wilbaer wrote:Rod - do you have any more info on the provenance of this device that you can share and help this aspect of the discussion too? That would be great.
The device was handled by three traders, prior to it ending up with the trader who was the subject of the SB thread mentioned above.

Two of those traders (now deceased) were active prior to WWII. Only one of those traders actually used the device, as far as I know.

That particular trader, whose stock was sold in early 1950s, I was told by a valuer of the stock, had an envelope containing Australia 1927 Canberra's, with the notation: "To be imperfed".

'nough said.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

Thanks Rod - fairly blatant with his intentions, wasn't he, back in the days ! On another note, do we really know 100% if this device was destroyed a few years back or is it some sort of urban myth? It was such a hot topic back then and if someone knows of its current existence, the PCNZA guys would surely be the place where this belongs.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by satsuma »

corpman wrote:
but if I ventured into online scamming I could list the stamp with my scan, and a scan of the expert opinion, wait out the auction, then take the bunnies money, send them the certificate only and run.
And have the buyer put a claim against you, have paypal debit your account, get negative feedback and then run?

Are you for real?
Not only real, but aware as you appear not to be that the scammers are doing this everyday on Ebay. They don't wait around for Ebay to reclaim the funds, they close the bank account first. Another day another identity - who cares if the old one had some negative feedback.

There are several threads on this topic if you wnat to learn more.

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Post by corpman »

satsuma

Sorry, I misinterpreted your post.

I thought that you meant that you would just post them a copy of the certificate and that was that.

I am well aware from reading other posts about how the scammers work.

I apologize for getting the wrong idea.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Chris Ceremuga »

Satsuma,

You have pointed out very well some of the problems of this fatally flawed methodology of the self-declared "experts" of the PCNZA.

As when they issue a so-called "certificate" merely from a scan there is no actual proof the stamp actually exists!

Or whether the perfin holes shown on a scan physically exist on the stamp, or whether the perfin holes are merely a digital creation!
(for example digitally transferred from another stamp)


I did vaguely refer to Adobe Photoshop in earlier post but did not want to make suggestions…...

And another variant that can be added to your scenario is that a clever scammer would then forge the perfin holes to copy the photoshop scan after getting his so called “certificate” showing the scan…..
Last edited by Chris Ceremuga on 08 Nov 2017 16:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Chris Ceremuga »

Corpman,

No, sorry but your baiting attempts are not going to be successful, as I am not going to waste time replying to the assorted falsehoods & fantasy stories about me that you keep posting.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

corpman wrote:satsuma

Sorry, I misinterpreted your post.

I thought that you meant that you would just post them a copy of the certificate and that was that.

I am well aware from reading other posts about how the scammers work.

I apologize for getting the wrong idea.
And as ebay is a fertile playground for all scammers, don't forget the old favourite. Ebay Bunny buys a stamp for around $1,000 as a BARGEEN. Pays for the $5 Regd post 'to be safe'.

Gets his Registered letter, that sender has added an "AR" card to on back for even, takes it home, and it contains a white sheet of paper or 2 folded up inside. No stamps.

Occurred to someone I know for $900. Stated that neither ebay or paypal would play ball as they could see via online checking that the goods reached buyer who signed for them, and could even show them the signed for "AR" card from buyer, and they helpfully suggested he contacted Police.

He went to cops who laughed him out the door. They suggested he contact Australia Post as 'stamp probably stolen in mail transit'.

Weeks later by this point, and AP not interested as no report was made upon receipt to staffers, of a tampered with envelope.

Credit card company not interested, as item arrived, and was signed for, as AP records clearly showed.

He left an ebay negative, as that was all he could then do, and seller successfully got ebay to remove that, as he proved to them item was delivered, and stated buyer was being petty.

He wasted many hours on it, and lost his $900 cold.

Seller only has to do this each 100 or 200 legit sales and makes $10,000 a year cool profit for mailing out a few sheets of white paper now and again. And still is a "Trusted Power Seller" on ebay. Incredible.

ebay do not care one iota, as they make over $100 in fees on EACH scam deal and they lose NOTHING. :roll: :roll:

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Post by MargoZ »

Global Administrator wrote:
Please refer to the member by their stampboard user name in posts if you do not care to use their Christian name. Solves any apparent "misunderstanding" that we seem to be seeing here. :idea:

Got it folks? Hope so, as I am not going to type this twice, trust me on that. :wink:
Corpman - your last post has been removed.

All members were asked to refer to members by their Stampboards handle, but have continued posting using only a member's last name, despite this clear request of only yesterday.

Additionally, you have already made your point in several other posts and continued repetition is just derailing this thread, which is about 1d large OS and not your personal agendas.

You have earned a week's vacation from stampboards as a result.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

wilbaer wrote:Back to the 1d double-perfinned Roos !!

Chris,

Thanks for the reply – I was only concerned from your earlier post that you flat-out rejected the PCNZA findings and their validity, but I was not really sure why, since there was no real DETAILED explanation of exactly what their methodology was and yet feel you can dismiss their methodology completely, without having a basis to do so and knowing what exactly it is. Not exactly a scientific approach….
Chris Ceremuga wrote:
(2) I dispute all the specific claims that they have made about the physical characteristics of the perfins on this stamp, as those claims are are simply factually incorrect.

Furthermore, I consider PCNZA's claimed “scientific” methodology of "expertizing" of OS perfins based on measurements from scans to be fatally flawed.

(They are claiming to be "expertizing" items without examining the actual stamps!!!)

I consider such claimed “expertizing" methodology to be without any scientific basis whatsoever, and to be imprecise & inaccurate, and I therefore simply reject its validity.
From what I have gathered from other sources, the methodology is very science/technology based with regards to the mapping of existing patterns, dies etc and they have a geo-spatial mapper who has assisted them in getting to their solutions ( Maybe I erred in my original post by saying the word ‘scientific’ too much where I should have put more of a slant on’ technical/mathematical’).

I think it is fair to say that geo-spacial mapping techniques are a bit beyond the everyday knowledge-base of your average bloke. It is not that I am in awe of such stuff –just that I recognise my lack of knowledge in the area and thus do not see myself as qualified enough to either agree/disagree with it.

But I am aware of the principles and it is certainly technical and very exact. Maybe it would be beneficial for you to actually see (or hear about in detail) how they go about their validation techniques, since you say that you would
Chris Ceremuga wrote:“ always be thrilled to hear about any new scientific methodologies that can be applied to aid the expertising process. And I am definitely not excluding that measurement comparison & location plotting software could be a very useful tool to assist in philatelic expertizing matters” .
I know you probably don’t see eye to eye with the PCNZA at present, it seems, but this could be a GREAT opportunity for both sides to take each other’s methodologies on board and see what common ground you can find.

Now onto other areas of your post which concern me a little bit….you lambast the PCNZA for not having any shred of proof that these perfins are forged/not matching existing die patterns, but yet you do not produce any shred of evidence YOURSELF that backs your opinion of their genuineness either – you allude to something that make you 105% sure that they are genuine, but do not say what it is that leads you to your conclusion. For us guys who are trying to form an opinion on the issue, this is not particularly helpful either – you cannot demand others to post their evidence without you being happy to post yours too.

And finally, to me, your last image shows that the patterns are ANYTHING BUT IDENTICAL. The red “O’ pattern does not even come close to matching the lower OS hole pattern. Look at the punches of the LHS lower punch – there are glaringly massive, uneven gaps when the upper punch is overlaid and they are are off-centre and lower.

Surely this must raise all sorts of flags. And even the upper ones (circa 1 and 2 o’clock) are not uniform in being ‘out’ in the same direction. The 12.30 one has a gap upper right and the lower one at 1 o’clock, the gap is all below the overlayed punch. This is not geometrical at all, which you would surely have to expect from the same die.

This lack of geometry in these gaps would thus exclude paper slippage and variations in the punching within a particular die.

And the overlayed stamp had to be angled to fit this 2nd pattern as best as possible (but not exactly), which would also surely be a bit suspect too (but I guess possible in theory if the sheet was somehow fed in again separately and was not fed in at the same angle as the first).

Was there some sort of ‘positioning’ mechanism on these machines to ensure that punches were even and horizontally close to perfect along the width of a sheet which would also put into question the angle of this 2nd strike compared to the first?

What do other stampboarders think of this image? (the 3rd in Chris’ last post)? I don’t think I would be the only one who is a bit worried by this stamp and its uneven pattern matching when overlayed.

But I have seen neither the actual stamp itself, not PCNZA’s methodology not Chris’ reasoning, so there is still no real concrete proof yet either way but to me, this is quite indicative of a problem at face value.

And if this supposedly matched not one of the dies that are known to be in existence via full sheets and a large database of examples, as the PCNZA state, this must be one of the biggest pointers of all to this being a highly questionable double punch.

I’m tempted to place a bet with you, Chris because from what I can see and what other images/overlays people have posted, these two patterns do NOT match, but I am not sure to whom we could go to in order get any such wager settled to either of our satisfactions ! I fear we may have to agree to disagree on this one …
Thanks for removing those posts Margoz ... agree, back to the perfinned Roos again!

Hi Chris,

I see you have been online a bit this afternoon and responded to other posts - have you had a chance to read through this original post of mine and the one posted this morning re. Arthur Gray etc .... any response from your side would be appreciated, since we all need a bit of clarity on this topic, I think.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Chris Ceremuga »

Wilbaer,

Seriously……….. where do I start?

You are again making incorrect claims about I may know or what I may think.
And then your use of “strawman” arguments is not very useful in trying to advance any discussions.


(1) Firstly, you have no idea what I may know about the PCNZA methodology. You admit your lack of knowledge and/or understanding of the details of your methodology, and you admit that you are not qualified to judge it.

But yet you still make the fantasy claim that it is “very exact”, which is a claim without any basis whatsoever.


(2) Secondly, as far as whether different sides in the argument need to present proof for their opinions:
You seem to forget that it was the 3 self-declared “experts” from the PCNZA that started this whole thread to attack the authenticity of this stamp, and to make personal attacks on me I might add.

Therefore, the onus is on them to provide evidence for their alleged claims.


(My 105 % certainty that is is genuine is based on combination of numerous factors, including especially those from physical examination of the item which obviously are not things that can be illustrated in the scan, as well as features of the original strip of 3 it came from. Sorry but I see no benefit in trying to teach those things to others eg: to you. And obviously I have no intention of providing a public tutorial for forgers on how to improve their work).


(3) Thirdly, I can not follow what you are trying to describe re the specifics of the perfin holes. The item has very roughly punched perfin holes, which does not mean the perfin pins etc were necessarily jagged, just that the punching produced jagged edges of the holes. Again somewhat pointless in trying to comment on that merely from a scan, as only on closeup physical examination you can see where the actual edge of the hole is vs partly punched paper.

Also you definitely need to examine some sheets or vertical multiples that show roughly punched perfins, or roughly punched perforations. And then you will see that the exact shapes of jagged edges of holes & their apparent sizes etc are obviously NOT repeatable, even though same pins or dies are punching the perfin or perfs.

And as far as relative positioning of the 2 perfins I think you will get best idea if you find & look at illustrations or scans of a few dozen examples of double comb perforations on various stamps. Then you will get a clearer picture what sort of displacements/positioning etc is typical due to malfunctions of comb perf machinery.


(4) Fourthly, there are many more different forgers of OS perfins with the equipment to do it (both in the present & in the past) than you seem to imagine.


(5) Fifthly, I see you are again using one of your false “strawman” arguments about provenance.
When issuing the positive certificate guaranteeing the authenticity of this item, I did not consider the provenance of the item at all.


So do you want to place a $25,000 bet or a $250,000 bet about the item?


Then a scientist can be hired who specializes in measurements & calculations of % error margins & confidence intervals etc. And I am absolutely certain that if proper scientific measurements are done to plot the relative hole positions of the 2 perfins, then proper scientific measurement results will show that the 2 OS perfins on this stamp perfectly match each other.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by mobbor »

Chris Ceremuga wrote:Wilbaer,

(My 105 % certainty that is is genuine is based on combination of numerous factors, including especially those from physical examination of the item which obviously are not things that can be illustrated in the scan, as well as features of the original strip of 3 it came from. Sorry but I see no benefit in trying to teach those things to others eg: to you. And obviously I have no intention of providing a public tutorial for forgers on how to improve their work).


Apart from being 105% certain that says nothing. The idea that forgers might take advantage of your answer is legitimate, but does not help your claim. Put up, or shut up.

Then a scientist can be hired who specializes in measurements & calculations of % error margins & confidence intervals etc. And I am absolutely certain that if proper scientific measurements are done to plot the relative hole positions of the 2 perfins, then proper scientific measurement results will show that the 2 OS perfins on this stamp perfectly match each other.
You mean you didn't do that. I thought that was exactly what PCNZA did, and in case you missed a previous post JRG's B.A. degree was in actuarial studies- can't get much more mathematical than that
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by muttly2011 »

This might be helpful:

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