1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoughts?

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Tounga »

Chris Ceremuga wrote: You seem to forget that it was the 3 self-declared “experts” from the PCNZA that started this whole thread to attack the authenticity of this stamp, and to make personal attacks on me I might add.
At what point did the PCNZA attack you in this thread?
Chris Ceremuga wrote:Therefore, the onus is on them to provide evidence for their alleged claims.
The stated auction house that you work for was contacted by the PCNZA when this stamp was first offered in the last auction.

All concerns were raised and presented, and without any consultation or consideration a sharp single response was provided by them. (Guess what it was)

How dare a bunch of dedicated specialist challenge your opinion on this stamp or any other junk perfin lots your employer has been offering up in the last 10 or more years.

Its taken a bunch of self-declared “experts” to come up with an exact method to weed out suspect material, and the only one trying to tear it to shreds is the one that has done nothing to prevent the spread.

Stampboards has provided a pivotal roll in shutting down eBay scammers, but who polices the trade?

At what point are auction houses accountable for what they accept and offer for sale?

How do we change the attitude "we know its suspect we will sell it anyway" we talk about the damage dodgy eBay sellers have done but its a lot harder pill to swallow when its in your own back yard.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Didge »

Rod,

Great philatelic history again displayed there mate. You should write a book.

Tim


Rod Perry wrote:
wilbaer wrote:Rod - do you have any more info on the provenance of this device that you can share and help this aspect of the discussion too? That would be great.
The device was handled by three traders, prior to it ending up with the trader who was the subject of the SB thread mentioned above.

Two of those traders (now deceased) were active prior to WWII. Only one of those traders actually used the device, as far as I know.

That particular trader, whose stock was sold in early 1950s, I was told by a valuer of the stock, had an envelope containing Australia 1927 Canberra's, with the notation: "To be imperfed".

'nough said.

Rod

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by mobbor »

Rod

I'm sure you must be mistaken. Elsewhere, Glen said that, apart from 'Blue Owl', no dealer would dream of getting into the business of forgery.
mobbor

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by dukeprince »

mobbor wrote:Rod

I'm sure you must be mistaken. Elsewhere, Glen said that, apart from 'Blue Owl', no dealer would dream of getting into the business of forgery.
I am reasonably sure there was one old Dealer who would make you a nice used Roo out of a mint one in a jiffy, mentioned on this site someplace.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

mobbor wrote:Rod

I'm sure you must be mistaken. Elsewhere, Glen said that, apart from 'Blue Owl', no dealer would dream of getting into the business of forgery.
Mobbor by all means add any factual input you wish here.

Total Fanstasyland DRIVEL like the above is not a fact, and derails serious threads. Please refrain from adding such stupid comments, especially when attributed to me, as I certainly never made them.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

Chris Ceremuga wrote:Wilbaer,

Seriously……….. where do I start?

You are again making incorrect claims about I may know or what I may think.
And then your use of “strawman” arguments is not very useful in trying to advance any discussions.


(1) Firstly, you have no idea what I may know about the PCNZA methodology. You admit your lack of knowledge and/or understanding of the details of your methodology, and you admit that you are not qualified to judge it.

But yet you still make the fantasy claim that it is “very exact”, which is a claim without any basis whatsoever.

I have not seen the PCNZA methodology in action, but by all accounts, they are using a scientific based technique similar to the one that you would want a neutrally-chosen scientist to use to settle our theoretical bet, specialising in exact measurements, calculation of error margins and tolerance etc. I am keen to find out more details about it and maybe even see it in action to increase my knowledge base - maybe you should contemplate doing the same.

(2) Secondly, as far as whether different sides in the argument need to present proof for their opinions:
You seem to forget that it was the 3 self-declared “experts” from the PCNZA that started this whole thread to attack the authenticity of this stamp, and to make personal attacks on me I might add.

Therefore, the onus is on them to provide evidence for their alleged claims.

The PCNZA experts (and I shall leave it without the quotes, since if anyone is entitled to be experts in perfins, it is an organisation that is dedicated especially to their field of choice, I believe) have provided their evidence early on in this thread based on their findings compared to all known existing dies. They found that the OS pattern on this stamp did not match ANY known patterns found to date. So which die did your example come from? Apparently one that has never been seen before ever. A very unlikely possibility at best.

(My 105 % certainty that is is genuine is based on combination of numerous factors, including especially those from physical examination of the item which obviously are not things that can be illustrated in the scan, as well as features of the original strip of 3 it came from. Sorry but I see no benefit in trying to teach those things to others eg: to you. And obviously I have no intention of providing a public tutorial for forgers on how to improve their work).

And I am sorry that you see no benefit in teaching others as highlighted above when talking about your reasons for thinking this stamp to be genuine... a shame - I thought it was the idea of Stampboards, namely to educate others in the philatelic world. Whether you want to join in is your call.

(3) Thirdly, I can not follow what you are trying to describe re the specifics of the perfin holes. The item has very roughly punched perfin holes, which does not mean the perfin pins etc were necessarily jagged, just that the punching produced jagged edges of the holes. Again somewhat pointless in trying to comment on that merely from a scan, as only on closeup physical examination you can see where the actual edge of the hole is vs partly punched paper.

Also you definitely need to examine some sheets or vertical multiples that show roughly punched perfins, or roughly punched perforations. And then you will see that the exact shapes of jagged edges of holes & their apparent sizes etc are obviously NOT repeatable, even though same pins or dies are punching the perfin or perfs.


Re. the perfin holes - yes, the punched holes may vary from clean to rougher, but the clean ones were in all likelihood from the top sheet of any given items being punched and the rougher ones being further down the set of sheets being punctured. What is the likelihood that these 'rougher' perfins on your example came from a lower sheet? If this were the case, where are all the other examples of this 'double OS' hiding, since there must in all likelihood be a set of 'clean' ones from the top sheet of the same process?

And as far as relative positioning of the 2 perfins I think you will get best idea if you find & look at illustrations or scans of a few dozen examples of double comb perforations on various stamps. Then you will get a clearer picture what sort of displacements/positioning etc is typical due to malfunctions of comb perf machinery.

Yes, I agree that the comb-perf machinery was quite fallible in those days and may possibly contribute in some way to the angular/displaced nature of these punctures. We do agree on something, it seems.

(4) Fourthly, there are many more different forgers of OS perfins with the equipment to do it (both in the present & in the past) than you seem to imagine.

I do realise that there are a few forgers around - not sure whether everyone on the board agrees about WHEN they were around and possibly practicing their forging art though - certainly there is a massive chance that it was way earlier than we might have thought, given that the device was known to have existed pre 1950's.

(5) Fifthly, I see you are again using one of your false “strawman” arguments about provenance.
When issuing the positive certificate guaranteeing the authenticity of this item, I did not consider the provenance of the item at all.

My mentioning of provenance was more of a general point, not directed at you as such, since you would be MAD to consider that in this case, as you rightly mentioned.

My issue is was it really necessary to throw Arthur Gray's name around in conjunction with this stamp? If it was meant to impress everyone, it failed dismally here. His name gets bandied about a lot of Stampboards, mainly due to his amazing collection and accompanying sales results, but his link to this stamp is of absolutely no consequence whatsoever, so I was not sure why he was mentioned in this case.



So do you want to place a $25,000 bet or a $250,000 bet about the item?


Then a scientist can be hired who specializes in measurements & calculations of % error margins & confidence intervals etc. And I am absolutely certain that if proper scientific measurements are done to plot the relative hole positions of the 2 perfins, then proper scientific measurement results will show that the 2 OS perfins on this stamp perfectly match each other.
Your "If" highlighted above concerns me here. I would hope that you have already taken exact measurements of these patterns and applied them somehow when making your judgement. If not, then there is a major problem

That's it for now. It does appear that we will not get any resolution to the validity of this stamp with any degree of certainly unless something major happens. As indicated in my previous post, it would surely benefit Chris and the PCNZA to try and find some common ground and discuss each others findings about the stamp. At present, this seems like the only solution that might help us all out here. It may not lead to any 100% guarantee of certainty and conformity of opinions, but it will surely be better than the limbo state that we are currently in with this post where all sides feel a bit aggrieved.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Willbaer.

All politely argued and well done. :mrgreen:

I do take issue with your last par the this stamp is in "Limbo" State.

It might be there in your mind, and you are entitled to hold that view. All collectors have views. Many are quite wrong, but they are entitled to hold them of course. They can also believe the world is flat, or the moon is made of green cheese or Malcolm Turnbull will be PM this time next year - their perfect right.

You do not seem to get it, that totally opposed to your "interesting" view, we have CLEAR views to the exact opposite, from Chris Ceremuga, Rodney Perry, Arthur Gray, Glen Stephens, Dr. Geoffrey Kellow, and Stewart Wright, who between them have what - 200 years of FULL TIME, HANDS ON EXPERIENCE in such matters.


All are comfortable the stamp is genuine - so far as one can say. It is not in "Limbo". It is overpriced - in my view yes - grossly so, but that is not the point here.

In the stamp world that is overwhelming weight. As not a single SHRED of evidence has been tabled by anyone, you included, to the CONTRARY, that this perfin is forged, there is no doubt as to the genuineness of this stamp - so far as one can say.

It is not in "Limbo." It is GENUINE.

Now you might also visit 6 leading medical specialists with 200 years of experience between them, who all tell you your diagnosis is xxxxxx, and you have about 6 months to live. And you might "self diagnose" on the internet, and decide they are all wacko and wrong, and you the Instant Expert have decided you will live for 20 more years.

Again your perfect choice. Me, I would not buy a lifetime subscription to "Stamp News" based on your bold self diagnosis that flies in the face of EXPERIENCE, from folks who actually know their field, as you will not be here next year. 99% Guaranteed. :mrgreen:

Glen

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

Fair enough, Glen - you are probably right with the "limbo" statement being a bit over the top. "Unresolved with 100% surety" may be a more fun way of putting it ! I do concur that others with a lot more experience than me have made their positions known to a degree in the "genuine" camp but there are enough contributors to this thread that are worried about this stamp too and they are not without their years of experience either, particularly in the perfin field, it seems, which is the main bone of contention with this stamp.

My issue with all the collective 200+ years of experience that you mention is that yes, you have an astounding amount of knowledge in your collective brains, fields of expertise etc, of that there is no doubt and I wish I had a 10th of it !

But surely, unless you, Rod, Chris, Geoff and Stewart have witnessed first-hand (and I think from the gist of the posts that none of you have - please correct me if I am wrong, I am just reading between the lines here) exactly what the PCNZA has obviously spent a lot of time and specialist dedication putting together for the sake of trying to future-proof the perfin world and its associated stamps in Australia, then you are missing out on a huge possible opportunity to pool everyone's knowledge base and hopefully rid us all of dodgy perfins for the future with nearly 100% certainty.

The matter is far too serious to just have a war of words about who is right or wrong based on cumulative experience - the goal here should be to get everyone on the same page if possible from all walks of experience and to do this, all research and methodology should be put on the table and discussed to try and come to a common understanding.

It is probably wise not to do this on such an open forum, obviously, but wouldn't it be great for Australian philately if you could all find some way to get together and discuss the merits of both old trusted ways and new mathematical/scientific/technology-based to future-proof our beloved hobby? I, for one, would applaud such an initiative and see where it takes us all.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Wilbaer - clearly what you say has merit, and it is why exactly that has been done in the past. :idea:

There has been much quiet co-operation on these issues over the years, unseen and unthanked by many. Just because these things are not in your face does not mean they have not occurred.

I've probably expended many 100s of hours on combating fake OS perfins. Not ONE dealer in this country can make the same claim. $10,000s productivity loss to me personally, but I believe in it.

MOST dealers and collectors sit in their comfy armchair and urge "someone else" to take some action. That is the case here, in most instances.

Glen

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Chris Ceremuga »

Wilbaer,

I hear that the Flat Earth Society would love to hire you as their spokesman & publicist.

I have to say that you have impressive debating & writing skills, as to be able to write the supporting case for something even without having a single shred of actual evidence to back it up with.

I take off my hat to you.

In the same way that you are excellent in writing things to support the nonsense claims coming from the self-declared “experts” of the PCNZA, I am sure you would also be able write excellent prose supporting that the earth is flat, or that aliens built the Egyptian pyramids, or any other argument whatsoever.


(1) You are again incorrectly assuming that the claims from the self-declared “experts” from PCNZA are “facts”, rather than simply opinions, for which they have not presented a single shred of evidence. And more to the point they are inaccurate opinions based on flawed methodology, which has resulted in them making claims which are simply erroneous.

The talk about “exact“ measurements & “scientific based” technique is merely fantasy. While what actually happens, as in any software processing, is that “garbage in” causes “garbage out”, producing nonsense results.

I will repeat again that their claims about this stamp are total nonsense, as the 2 large OS perfins on this 1d are absolutely genuine, perfectly fit one of the known large OS perfin positions/patterns, and the 2 perfins on this stamp are identical to each other.

(2) That some amateur collectors claim to be dedicated specialists in some field does not automatically mean that they in fact have much real specialist knowledge about that field. Often the claims are just an ego thing unfortunately. So it is not uncommon that some claimed amateur specialist knows much less about the field he claims to be an “expert” in, than an advanced semi-general collector, or especially a fulltime professional dealer who has often handled infinitely more material.

(3) The reason I had mentioned Arthur Gray was that he considered the double large OS perfins on this 1d to be perfectly genuine. And he would have had infinitely more experience & expertise in OS perfins that you, and I dare say also more than any of the self-declared “experts” from the PCNZA. It does not mean that I would always agree with Arthur on everything, or about every stamp he had, but in the discussion we are now having I would consider that his opinion holds infinitely more weight than the opinions of the amateurs like you or those from the PCNZA.

(4) If this stamp was the only example of different verdicts between me and the self-declared “experts” from PCNZA, then I would not be so scathing about their flawed methodology & nonsense results. There are much more serious issues that I have not yet gotten to raising in this discussion.

As there is a very serious problem of large numbers of items I have rejected as definitely forged based on physical examination but which the self-declared “experts” PCNZA have cheerfully issued their so-called “certificates” as “genuine” based on scans alone. In fact the vast majority of the rare Kangaroo high values that I have seen which they claim are “genuine” I consider to be definite forgeries.


It seems to me that their flawed methodology is only rejecting poor forgeries (& incorrectly some genuine items), while passing all the more dangerous forgeries incorrectly as “genuine”.

So instead of “weeding out suspect material” as they claim, in my view PCNZA's flawed methodology is actually greatly assisting the fraudulent sales of forged material.

More details on this & many examples will follow when I have time over next several days.
Chris (Krzysztof) Ceremuga - Professional Philatelic Expert & Consultant
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

Chris Ceremuga wrote:Wilbaer,

I hear that the Flat Earth Society would love to hire you as their spokesman & publicist.

It's a nice supplement to my income. Would love you to join, but we only accept earthlings and you are clearly from another planet ! - (boom-tish - couldn't resist it, but you did set yourself up for that !) OK, all jokes aside - on to the serious stuff...

I have to say that you have impressive debating & writing skills, as to be able to write the supporting case for something even without having a single shred of actual evidence to back it up with.

That would be my bachelor of Arts degree coming to the fore. You don't seem to like them much, judging by your old posts! I am merely supporting the notion that a methodical, empirical way of measuring these perfins compared to existing patterns has merit and members of the PCNZA obviously have taken the bit between their teeth, have a geo-spatial professional to assist in their research and methodology and done something mathematical/scientific to try and help the perfin collectors of this world. They state that the perfin does not match any of the dies that are known and I doubt whether they would come up with such a statement if they did not believe it to be true, based on their research. You have chosen to reject it completely (as is your right), but you have not uttered one word to tell us WHY you reject it. Would love to hear something along those lines from you.

I take off my hat to you.

In the same way that you are excellent in writing things to support the nonsense claims coming from the self-declared “experts” of the PCNZA, I am sure you would also be able write excellent prose supporting that the earth is flat, or that aliens built the Egyptian pyramids, or any other argument whatsoever.


(1) You are again incorrectly assuming that the claims from the self-declared “experts” from PCNZA are “facts”, rather than simply opinions, for which they have not presented a single shred of evidence. And more to the point they are inaccurate opinions based on flawed methodology, which has resulted in them making claims which are simply erroneous.

Please explain then WHY is it flawed, if you know so much about it. Until this is explained by you, it is merely your opinion that it is flawed, something which you seemingly hate in others if it doesn't agree with your own "expert" opinion

The talk about “exact“ measurements & “scientific based” technique is merely fantasy. While what actually happens, as in any software processing, is that “garbage in” causes “garbage out”, producing nonsense results.

A particularly meaningless opinion for your side.

I will repeat again that their claims about this stamp are total nonsense, as the 2 large OS perfins on this 1d are absolutely genuine, perfectly fit one of the known large OS perfin positions/patterns, and the 2 perfins on this stamp are identical to each other.

You can repeat your 'opinion' all you want - just telling us again and again that it is nonsense, without saying why, will not make me believe it any more than I did the first time. It is your 'opinion' against theirs. For the first time in this post, I believe, you have stated that this pattern fits perfectly. Not sure what your measuring stick is, but prior scans show a complete lack of symmetry in how they vary in individual holes within the punch. (the variations at 9 o'clock and 12.30/1 o'clock in a prior post of mine.) Your tolerance threshold for differing sizes and patterns of individual pins in relation to each other must be quite large

(2) That some amateur collectors claim to be dedicated specialists in some field does not automatically mean that they in fact have much real specialist knowledge about that field. Often the claims are just an ego thing unfortunately. So it is not uncommon that some claimed amateur specialist knows much less about the field he claims to be an “expert” in, than an advanced semi-general collector, or especially a fulltime professional dealer who has often handled infinitely more material.

How many dealers have written amazingly detailed studies of specialised works in the last 50+ years that can compare with Purves, Pope, Scudder, Lancaster, to name but a few? It is normally down to the collectors who have an intense knowledge of a chosen field who have the guts to put what they believe down on paper and open themselves up to public scrutiny. And please don't forget - it is collectors who keep this hobby going... without us 'amateurs' who collect stamps, you would not have a business in the first place.

(3) The reason I had mentioned Arthur Gray was that he considered the double large OS perfins on this 1d to be perfectly genuine. And he would have had infinitely more experience & expertise in OS perfins that you, and I dare say also more than any of the self-declared “experts” from the PCNZA. It does not mean that I would always agree with Arthur on everything, or about every stamp he had, but in the discussion we are now having I would consider that his opinion holds infinitely more weight than the opinions of the amateurs like you or those from the PCNZA.

I have not once claimed to be an expert - I know my limitations and you, the PCNZA, Arthur, Glen, Geoff, Rod etc all have more collective experience and knowledge than I do, of that I am sure. But I sincerely doubt that they have more 'expertise' in perfins in general as individuals than a collective body of PCNZA collectors who specialise in a given field. That is my opinion - one of an amateur collector who you are so scathing about.

(4) If this stamp was the only example of different verdicts between me and the self-declared “experts” from PCNZA, then I would not be so scathing about their flawed methodology & nonsense results. There are much more serious issues that I have not yet gotten to raising in this discussion.

As there is a very serious problem of large numbers of items I have rejected as definitely forged based on physical examination but which the self-declared “experts” PCNZA have cheerfully issued their so-called “certificates” as “genuine” based on scans alone. In fact the vast majority of the rare Kangaroo high values that I have seen which they claim are “genuine” I consider to be definite forgeries.



It seems to me that their flawed methodology is only rejecting poor forgeries (& incorrectly some genuine items), while passing all the more dangerous forgeries incorrectly as “genuine”.

Just to make it clear, that is your 'opinion' - not fact. You do not like 'opinions', don't forget (especially from amateur collectors).

So instead of “weeding out suspect material” as they claim, in my view PCNZA's flawed methodology is actually greatly assisting the fraudulent sales of forged material.

More details on this & many examples will follow when I have time over next several days.
AHA - finally. it's taken a while. Really looking forward to seeing some 'proof' from you after all this time to back up your claims, instead of just 'expert' rhetoric and opinion. I do mean the following most sincerely - I really do hope that I, along with all the 'amateurs' and 'experts' alike who have been reading and contributing to this post, will learn something from this which will help us have more confidence one way or the other about not only this stamp, but forged perfins in general. Let us all keep an open mind...

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Chris Ceremuga »

Wilbaer,

You are free to believe whatever you like, including believing assorted claims for which not a single shred of evidence has been presented by the self-declared "experts" that started this thread.

You obviously do not seem to require any proof whatsoever from certain people, as you seem to automatically believe whatever they might claim, even when not a single shred of evidence has been presented. So obviously there is absolutely no point in me replying any more to any of your specific comments.

I think Glen had the most relevant reply to you, which I will take liberty in quoting:

I do take issue with your last par the this stamp is in "Limbo" State.

It might be there in your mind, and you are entitled to hold that view. All collectors have views. Many are quite wrong, but they are entitled to hold them of course. They can also believe the world is flat, or the moon is made of green cheese or Malcolm Turnbull will be PM this time next year - their perfect right.

You do not seem to get it, that totally opposed to your "interesting" view, we have CLEAR views to the exact opposite, from Chris Ceremuga, Rodney Perry, Arthur Gray, Glen Stephens, Dr. Geoffrey Kellow, and Stewart Wright, who between them have what - 200 years of FULL TIME, HANDS ON EXPERIENCE in such matters.


All are comfortable the stamp is genuine - so far as one can say. It is not in "Limbo". It is overpriced - in my view yes - grossly so, but that is not the point here.

In the stamp world that is overwhelming weight. As not a single SHRED of evidence has been tabled by anyone, you included, to the CONTRARY, that this perfin is forged, there is no doubt as to the genuineness of this stamp - so far as one can say.

It is not in "Limbo." It is GENUINE.

Now you might also visit 6 leading medical specialists with 200 years of experience between them, who all tell you your diagnosis is xxxxxx, and you have about 6 months to live. And you might "self diagnose" on the internet, and decide they are all wacko and wrong, and you the Instant Expert have decided you will live for 20 more years.

Again your perfect choice. Me, I would not buy a lifetime subscription to "Stamp News" based on your bold self diagnosis that flies in the face of EXPERIENCE, from folks who actually know their field, as you will not be here next year. 99% Guaranteed. :mrgreen:

Glen
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

Chris Ceremuga wrote:Wilbaer,

You are free to believe whatever you like, including believing assorted claims for which not a single shred of evidence has been presented by the self-declared "experts" that started this thread.

You obviously do not seem to require any proof whatsoever from certain people, as you seem to automatically believe whatever they might claim, even when not a single shred of evidence has been presented. So obviously there is absolutely no point in me replying any more to any of your specific comments.
Chris,

Fine, that’s your choice to ignore my points and observations if you like but that is shirking the issue at hand, don’t you think?

The whole issue revolves about two expertising parties not agreeing on a stamp, which is a major problem for the stamp collecting fraternity as a whole.

All I am trying to do from a personal level is to get to the bottom of the problem about its validity, which has been questioned initially. The PCNZA has attempted to say why they believe it to be a problem stamp, based on the methodology they have studied and portrayed and saying that they could not find a matching pattern in the existing dies for the ones presented on the 1d Roo in question.

You have the opposing view, claiming that it is perfectly fine, based on your own opinion on characteristics of the stamp and the strip of 3 it was a part of, among other things
.
My problem, from the perspective of someone who has only seen what is portrayed in this thread and the accompanying images and posts, is that I have to try and form an opinion, based on the ‘evidence’ presented to me.

The PCNZA has at least stated why they have chosen their stance, based on their calculations and methodology but YOU have not stated the reasons WHY you have taken your stance but just say that you are 105% positive due to some characteristics of the stamp, which in turn you do not describe.

Is it any wonder that I, and some others in this thread, am leaning more to the stance of the PCNZA in this particular stamp ? They have at least tried to say WHY they think what they think, but you yourself have not given ‘one shred of evidence’ yourself to make the case for it being genuine.

How can I possibly side with you, given the set of circumstances that have been presented to us, if you cannot outline and substantiate your case for it being genuine?

What choice do I have if I have to make an informed opinion if I was put on the spot right now, this very moment and asked to choose who I believe? Any third party at all, who has ONLY seen what we have seen in this post would have to toss up between ‘some explanation’ and ‘no explanation’? Not a great choice, really, but you would have to go on the side of ‘some explanation’ if pressed.

Chris Ceremuga wrote: (4) If this stamp was the only example of different verdicts between me and the self-declared “experts” from PCNZA, then I would not be so scathing about their flawed methodology & nonsense results. There are much more serious issues that I have not yet gotten to raising in this discussion.

As there is a very serious problem of large numbers of items I have rejected as definitely forged based on physical examination but which the self-declared “experts” PCNZA have cheerfully issued their so-called “certificates” as “genuine” based on scans alone. In fact the vast majority of the rare Kangaroo high values that I have seen which they claim are “genuine” I consider to be definite forgeries.


It seems to me that their flawed methodology is only rejecting poor forgeries (& incorrectly some genuine items), while passing all the more dangerous forgeries incorrectly as “genuine”.

So instead of “weeding out suspect material” as they claim, in my view PCNZA's flawed methodology is actually greatly assisting the fraudulent sales of forged material.

More details on this & many examples will follow when I have time over next several days.
You said above that you were going to give many examples which will prove your methodology and proof is superior and that those of the PCNZA are flawed, but you are yet to follow up with these details… can you please post them, so that we can be all informed and then have an better understanding regarding both sides of the 'experts' arguments?

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

wilbaer wrote:
All I am trying to do from a personal level is to get to the bottom of the problem about its validity, which has been questioned initially. The PCNZA has attempted to say why they believe it to be a problem stamp, based on the methodology they have studied and portrayed and saying that they could not find a matching pattern in the existing dies for the ones presented on the 1d Roo in question.

You have the opposing view, claiming that it is perfectly fine, based on your own opinion on characteristics of the stamp and the strip of 3 it was a part of, among other things

My problem, from the perspective of someone who has only seen what is portrayed in this thread and the accompanying images and posts, is that I have to try and form an opinion, based on the ‘evidence’ presented to me.

The PCNZA has at least stated why they have chosen their stance, based on their calculations and methodology but YOU have not stated the reasons WHY you have taken your stance but just say that you are 105% positive due to some characteristics of the stamp, which in turn you do not describe.

Is it any wonder that I, and some others in this thread, am leaning more to the stance of the PCNZA in this particular stamp? They have at least tried to say WHY they think what they think, but you yourself have not given ‘one shred of evidence’ yourself to make the case for it being genuine.

How can I possibly side with you, given the set of circumstances that have been presented to us, if you cannot outline and substantiate your case for it being genuine?
Common sense dictates that a public Forum is NOT the place to offer a detailed tutorial to the forgers who read every word here to help improve their forging business. As my Grandmother often said, common sense is not NEARLY as common as many imagine - as you keep proving :lol:.

What YOU know, and what experts know, are clearly poles apart willbaer and that is because you do not have 200 years full time experience of working with this area of stamps.

The same way your Medical specialist or Lawyer or Accountant or car machanic etc do not spend 5 hours patiently telling you WHY he diagnosed/advised you how they did, applies here equally.

Choose not to believe, and challenge the views of stamp experts, or doctors, or lawyers or car mechanics in life - if you want - your call entirely.

Reading the thread I have seen only very vague and rubbery and totally contradictory commentary on this stamp from PCNZA, laced with a torrent of personal abuse, so their credibility and 'expertise' has not been elevated one iota during this thread I'd suggest. Quite the opposite.

Glen

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by fossick »

Glen, I totally agree.

Was going to post a comment but the last post just about nails it.

Regards

John G

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

Glen,

Obviously, a general forum is not a place to go into detailed description - please do not infer that I have no common sense, as this is far from the truth. None of us want this area of forging to proliferate, but the dilemma is, as stated before, two expertisers are in conflict and one of them, the PCNZA, has been slammed for apparently coming up with a measurement-based scientific approach to help the situation and unless you or Chris have seen this in action and had the process explained to you, then you are in NO position to decry it as being worthless, IMHO.

You yourself said in a couple of your posts:
Global Administrator wrote:[So Iain, no-one can be CERTAIN these days. NO-ONE has an opinion that is The Gold Standard on OS perfins.
You obviously have a wealth of knowledge and experience Glen and I commend you for it (and as I stated before, I wish I had a 10th of it) but an opportunity exists to embrace the findings of a project run by an official body that was undoubtedly only started up to help everybody in the field and a lot of people seems happy to try and dismiss it out of hand without any reasoning whatsoever.

I cannot understand the logic behind such actions. This helps absolutely no-one advance with the times.
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It may be an idea for ALL of us to keep this last quote in mind !

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

wilbaer wrote:Glen,

Obviously, a general forum is not a place to go into detailed description - please do not infer that I have no common sense
These two statements contradict each other clearly. One must be wrong.

Study 'OS' perfins for 20 or 30 more years and the penny may drop for you. :mrgreen:
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

Glen,

You haven't addressed the broader issue of whether you are open-minded enough to embrace new research that seems to have been worked on to try and better philately.

You are the one who quoted, quite rightly, that we must remain open-minded.... maybe you should practice what you preach and at least look into it a bit more deeply before passing high-handed judgement and questioning my common sense. (Granted, not as high-handed as Chris, who openly rejects the new research with absolutely no explanation as to WHY he is rejecting it. He promised to come back to us all on this thread with his reasoning and 'many examples' of these apparent failings of the PCNZA expertising, but none has been forthcoming to date, oddly enough :roll: ).

It does not show much common sense from your side to dismiss something out of hand without knowing the fine details of what you are so dismissive about :mrgreen:

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

wilbaer - In my view the double 'OS' stamp looks perfectly genuine, so far as one can say without a personal examination, and I have very good reasons for thinking that.

That is not "high handed", it is just long experience speaking. You can think what you like. No problem.

You do not own this stamp, you did not ever own it, and appear to have no intention to want to own it.

You appear to have absolutely no idea if it is genuine or not, and have expressed no firm opinion either way, like most collectors, at most times, on most things. :roll: :roll:

But just appear to strongly think and repeatedly impute, that an wide range of well known trade experts, with ~200 years experience between them who HAVE all had the cojones to offer a firm view, are probably all totally wrong. And that Arthur Gray was pretty clueless about stamps, and his view holds no weight on Kangaroo stamps. You have no idea why, as usual with some collectors, but that is your view.

In 100 years time the hobby globally will know who Arthur Gray was, or Geoff Kellow. In 5 minutes time, the hobby has zero idea who wilbaer is or was. Food for thought. :idea:

As I need to do each hour, of every day in this business, I simply make a judgement call based on many factors, on many stamps. Whether you or any other amateur collector agrees or not, is your perfect democratic right. Me - I could not care LESS to be honest. :mrgreen:

In general in this hobby, overwhelming views from a wide range real experts count for something, to most informed observers.

Yes I do often type the following =

"The last word in Philately is never written". Open and enquiring minds will always ensure that. :)

Dr. Geoff Kellow is popping by tomorrow with a 1913 £2 Sperati Forgery from the collection of that apparently clueless amateur Arthur Gray, that matches ZERO of the usual characteristics of the Jean Sperati forgery plates. I now own it, and might be a fool or a genius for buying it, I'll let others decide on that. :mrgreen:

Kellow thinks it is a Sperati, Arthur Gray thought it was Sperati, The BPA thinks it is a Sperati, and Glen Stephens thinks it is, but we are all wildly guessing quite likely in some eyes.

It has a "Posted at Sea - Liverpool Ship letter" cancel which of course no £2 Roo could ever have, and is undoubtedly a Sperati forgery, to anyone with a thinking mind, and far more importantly - an open mind.

As the normal Sperati £2 fakes are cat $7,500 and dozens exist, a new and unrecorded discovery plate example is quite something. The sheep and lemmings in the hobby will never agree of course, but wiser minds will. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

It has an older BPA certificate it is a Sperati forgery. NEVER been reported. Geoff has a £1 Brown and Brown Kangaroo, also with an 'impossible' cancel for a high value, that is ALSO a Sperati forgery. NEVER been reported. And I have a £2 Small Multi Kangaroo here I bought years ago, that is also a Sperati forgery I will show Dr. Kellow. Also NEVER been reported before.

Not one word of these three perfectly genuine Speratis are in the ACSC - yet. Even after 100 years. So I can only again repeat -

"The last word in Philately is never written". Open and enquiring minds will always ensure that. :)

Some folks do not sit around permanently contemplating their navels in this hobby, but assume things might exist, that are not yet reported. Based on experience, and close examination, and dollops of COMMON SENSE, these exciting new discoveries are then accepted by others. :idea:

Glen
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Post by wilbaer »

Glen,

I appreciate all your comments, but I am NOT saying, and never have said, that you, Rod, Geoff, Chris etc are wrong about this stamp. All I was asking is that people keep an open mind to this new research - surely that is not too much to ask ?

Once you have seen the research, or have been show the working of it, then by all means have your say, but as posted before, to dismiss it out of hand BEFORE you know the intricacies behind it makes absolutely no sense whatsover.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

This is very like following a Donald Trump thought 'process'. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You appear to have no opinion at all of your own. Most impressive - but pointless fence sitting, and at the same time challenin all those who HAVE offered a view.

No-one has posted ANY 'research' here ("New" or otherwise) that this stamp is fake. NADA.

No-one has stated here this stamp is fake.

There is no 'research' posted here TO "consider".

HOWEVER many experienced folks have had the cojones to say publicity it is genuine.

Slam Dunk.

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Post by wilbaer »

Slam Dunk - you are kidding, aren't you, Glen??? It is anything BUT sadly, and unfortunately, you are not willing to conceive of ANY new research that flies in the face of your' xxx years of experience' as being worthwhile to consider, judging by your responses so far. Cojones will only get you so far in life, sadly....

And if you care to re-read my posts, I have said that I lean on the side of the PCNZA point of view on this, not with any air of certainty since I have not seen their research in the flesh either, just like you and Chris, not have I been privy to your reasons, nor Chris' reason, in order to form an opinion based on the facts presented from both sides.

Hard to be certain when you don't have all the info at your disposal to judge and are forced to do some interim fence-sitting (hence my desire to see some reasons for the 'experts') but for the record, that is MY opinion at the present time. Satisfied that I have one?

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

Global Administrator wrote: No-one has stated here this stamp is fake.
.
I know that you have argued for a 'pregnant or not' response from the PCNZA, which is a bit of a silly analogy really. Things are not always so black and white in the REAL world, Glen.

You said yourself that
Global Administrator wrote: "no-one can be CERTAIN these days. NO-ONE has an opinion that is The Gold Standard on OS perfins".
So I'm not sure how you can say that you are 100% positive it is genuine - you are just contradicting yourself.

From my understanding of the posts, John from the PCNZA stated that, based on the evidence of all the dies and positions CURRENTLY KNOWN to exist, this would be considered a forgery based on their methodology. He stops short of your 'request' to call it an outright fake only because he is erring on the side of caution that another set device could, in theory, have existed, but this is a very unlikely scenario, it would appear.

Maybe he should have said "99.9% fake" to allow for this miniscule chance of a new device suddenly appearing. But that would probably have set you off too, given your black/white view.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by mobbor »

Wilbaer,

Give up! I've enjoyed your carefully thought out responses on this thread. Of course you're sitting on the fence, as Glen said, because you can't get the answers you're looking for, despite
Chris Ceremuga wrote:Wilbaer,

More details on this & many examples will follow when I have time over next several days.
It is a conundrum because of course, you don't want to give the forgers any more clues, but what about us "bunnies"?

I'll repeat my former statement: I wouldn't touch it. You might be able to prove a perfin is a fake, but you can't prove it is genuine!
mobbor

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

Thanks for your support in my battle / war of words against the establishment, Mobbor. To quote somebody (no idea who it was though)

"It's a tough gig, but somebody's got to do it !!"

Glad you have enjoyed it so far - lively debate is always healthy but as you alluded to, there may be no resolution here unless there is some willingness to embrace new findings and blend them in with current-day knowledge.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Image
Willbaer - You surely must be running late for your Annual Meeting of the Flat Earth Society?

Me, I have real orders, for real stamps, from real collectors, who know something about this hobby to pack up - and I'll let you keep parroting your non opinions to your heart's content.

If you are voicing the "NO" case, the stamp has gone up markedly in value. :idea:

Glen

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

Mmmmm, Wensleydale for you, Gromit?

Wikipedia : Good Wensleydale has a supple, crumbly, moist texture and resembles a young Caerphilly. The flavour suggests wild honey balanced with fresh acidity.

Fair bit of that about in this thread !

But it's not green, so my apologies - a bad analogy.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Rod Perry »

Glen: "Common sense dictates that a public Forum is NOT the place to offer a detailed tutorial to the forgers who read every word here to help improve their forging business."

My "I'm in the genuine camp", is based upon certain characteristics of the subject item, to which both Glen and I et al are not about to divulge to forgers.

Mobbor: "I wouldn't touch it. You might be able to prove a perfin is a fake, but you can't prove it is genuine!"

I'm generally comfortable with "OS" punctures on Official covers/pieces, and agree with Mobbor's earlier comment that forgers have generally trashed faith in collecting mint and used (off-cover) punctures.

Not much scares me in Philately (and the record shows that I've been no piker in paying huge sums for certain items throughout my career), but I'll happily confess I'm not brave enough to consider seriously collecting punctured "OS" mint/used Kangaroos, particularly when highly questionable examples have sold for over AU$50,000.

I simply do not believe that a rational scientific method to positively determine genuine from questionable can be devised to satisfy all stakeholders. I hope I'm wrong.

Frankly, I trust only a consensus of certain of my peers and self to reasonably satisfy the determination of genuine from questionable.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

And whilst reporting his other crap folks, please take a moment to also report our loser faker's newest fantasy. :idea:

This sad loser cosmos121 and longjo5 duplicate fake selling handle has PERSONALLY devalued the collections of EVERY OS philatelist reading this, often by many $1000s, by flooding the market with fakes, via his FIFTY past ebay accounts that have been closed down, so here is your change to wipe this one too. :idea:

Do not bother contacting him, waste of energy, but direct your reports direct to ebay.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1913-1-Brown-Blue-1st-wmk-Roo-pe ... 3324206660

We might get another dodgy account wiped on this one, offering something he clearly does not own. The 1d Red 'double OS' ebay forced him to remove this week.

I've never owned a mint £1 Roo OS, and never issue Certificates, the Perfin Club have never set eyes on this, and this laughable hatpin fake is about as high a standard as his usual Bunny fodder. :roll: :roll:
Image

Image
Global Administrator wrote:
ebay scammer cosmos121 was banned once by ebay and somehow talked his way back on - lets get him banned AGAIN - recent fakes are outlined here -

https://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=78319

Ebay have revamped the rules re forged and faked and replica and counterfeit stamps.

Sellers now MUST mark fakes indelibly on reverse, and load a photo of that marking into the lot description.

Alterations (that includes forged perfins, overprints and cancels) and repairs MUST be noted now if known to seller, and sellers offering conga lines of the same fakes clearly DO know!

https://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/currstamps.html#replica_stamps
Image
Image
Also on EVERY ebay lot there is a “Report Item” icon – whether the sale is ended or not.

Reporting that via the simple drop-down options as shown below is a 5 second operation -
Image[/url]

Image
If ebay gets 5 or 10 reports on any given items they WILL generally take notice. They usually warn the user and remove the lot. Sellers getting several such removed lots are in trouble.

Let’s use ‘people power’ to stop this material getting offered.

Everyone “hoping” others act, will get nothing done - like most things in life! It takes teamwork and a Community Spirit, and the dodgy and misleading lots will be FAR less.

ebay now have set up a fast new portal JUST to report suspected sellers of forged stamps at - https://tinyurl.com/ebayfakes - also found at - https://www.ebay.com/scw - there is space for 10,000 characters in your reply, so all the relevant info can be added. Unlike most ebay complaint forms that allow just 100 characters etc.

Please take a moment to do BOTH ….. do the “Report Item” drop-down, and give a summary on the link above.

Most likely they will go to 2 different ebay staffers, and that is double trouble for the fakers.

Some staffers ignore such stuff, others are more pro-active – it is a lottery.

However several reports on any single item can be seen by all staffers looking at it, and that generally gets some action.

Even if 4 staffers have ignored it, the 5th staffer might see 5 reports and decide to act etc. :mrgreen:

"People Power" - never under-estimate the value of it! 8)

https://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/currstamps.html#replica_stamps
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Chris Ceremuga »

PROPER EXPERTIZATION PRECEDURES FOR OS PERFINS VERSUS INACCURATE OPINIONS FROM MEASUREMENTS


Proper expertization of OS perfins involves considering a whole range of factors, which depends on a case by case basis. And it is absolutely vital to take all the various factors into account to get a result of any accuracy.

I will clearly say that often there is usually some level of uncertainty, the degree of which varies greatly. But also many examples have enough characteristics that mean that certainty is possible either way, such as this genuine double perf large OS on the 1d. The OS perfins are one of the most difficult & dangerous fields in all of philately.

So the expertizer, or expert dealer, must have both excellent technical/observation skills & appropriate equipment, plus extensive experience handling very large numbers of such material, as well as reference records etc.

(In the below comments I can not go into too detail about some of the points so as not to provide too much extra info for the forgers …... Frankly, I would have much preferred for this public discussion not to be taking place at all)


(1) Checking of perf hole configurations/positioning is done as a first pass.
This can be done in various ways: either just visually from experience, or with matching using overlays, or by measurement comparison or plotting of hole positions like is attempted by the PCNZA etc.

It is also useful to determine the perfin column or row position, but that is only possible for some issues.


(2) Checking of perf hole features is by far the most important consideration.
This includes both general appearance features (which maybe visible in scans), and details that can only be assessed by close up physical examination of front and back etc. The latter is absolutely vital and it includes various features some of which are common to all material, and some that are specific only to certain types of items etc.


(3) There are also various other factors & features that must be taken into account, which are to do with certain features of the stamp itself, and in some cases the provenance of the item. For rarities it is an absolute must that one considers how the item compares to other confirmed examples of that particular stamp.

There are also circumstantial factors that if present would be extremely negative - for example any signs of reperfing of sides of the stamp.


Anyone claiming that they are doing “expertizing” of authenticity of perfins based solely on (1) above without considering (2) & (3), is TOTALLY DELUDING themselves, and TOTALLY MISLEADING others.



Any methodology of claimed "expertizing" using measurements from scans, like is being attempted by the self-declared “experts” from the PCNZA, is ONLY going to:

(a) spot poorer forgeries with incorrect hole configurations
(b) incorrectly condemn genuine items that are roughly/irregularly punched, due to measurement problems.
(c) incorrectly pass as genuine all the better forgeries that have correct perfin hole configurations.

Especially with small perf OS it is not at all difficult for a skilled forger to create a forged perfin with perfect hole positions (but which often can be immediately rejected as forgeries in proper physical examination of actual stamps).


But I will add that many collectors do not have the experience or skills to pick any perf OS forgeries at all. So the use of measurements from scans methodology of the PCNZA could still be EXTREMELY HELPFUL in the philatelic world to assist general collectors. However, that is only as long as the limits are recognized, and that some self-declared “experts” do not do totally crazy things like issuing “certificates” for items they have not not even actually examined.


In fact the problem of (c) has resulted in numerous items which can be rejected as definitely forged in proper physical examination, but which have been issued with so-called “certificates” as “genuine” by the self-declared “experts” from the PCNZA based solely on scans.


I will progressively post scans of many examples to illustrate this scandalous & extremely serious situation.

Which involves over $100,000+ “worth” of definitely forged items, including claimed “rarities” like SG O28, SG O29 & SG O30 etc, with so-called “certificates” as “genuine”.
Chris (Krzysztof) Ceremuga - Professional Philatelic Expert & Consultant
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Chris Ceremuga »

FORGERIES OF LARGE OS PERFINS

The majority of forgeries of large OS perfins have incorrect hole configurations. So they would be rejected as forgeries by any of the “first pass” checking methods I discussed under (1) in previous post, as long as the checking is carried out with enough skill & care.

However, there are some forgeries of large OS perfins with perfect or almost perfect hole positions, that one assumes have been created by very skilled forger by punching through another perf OS stamp as a template.

I have examined a couple of such forgeries and rejected them as definitely forged based on certain physical features, while based merely on a scan the self-declared “experts” from the PCNZA issued “certificates” for them as genuine.

EXAMPLE 1:

Let us start with a spectacular looking forged double perfin on the 9d.

This item was rejected by me in 2014 as FORGED perfins, based on detailed physical examination.

While in 2015 the the self-declared “experts” from the PCNZA issued for it a so-called “certificate” as “genuine”, based solely on scan.
(PCNZA “certificate” number “2015-004”)


Image

I will clearly state that this was the type of item where I will not claim I had 100% certainty (so is not absolutely set in stone),
but I had rejected it as forged based on very detailed expertizing, as outlined broadly in my previous post.

- while hole positions seemed at first to match a certain OS position, based on using overlays there were some anomalous slight displacements of some holes. And as holes are very clean cut then those slight displacements are quite damming, as this item does not have rough perfins causing measurements problems.

- under high magnification holes showed anomalous edge characteristics indicating back to what might have made the holes (which is not something I will describe in detail in a public forum).

- Circumstantial negative factors are that only one example seems to have ever been recorded, while if real a row of 12 would have originally made! And more worryingly from same source as this stamp was an identically positioned double perfin on the 2/- value!!!

- From technical point of view it is exceedingly unlikely to get a double where both perfins are same level but displaced horizontally. The genuine OS perfins would have been produced using similar or same equipment as used for comb perforating. This would involve the sheet being held by some gripping mechanism to have columns correctly aligned & being advanced row by row.

Double perfins (like double comb perfs) would occur due to malfunction either causing the sheet not to advance, or due to sheet becoming loose of falling out etc. So expected format of genuine double perfins (like is observed on double perfs) would be either to have vertical displacement (or almost coincident) if problem is sheet not advancing, or some vertical or diagonal displacement from sheet becoming loose or starting to fall out.


Therefore, my verdict was that it was forgery made by a skilled forger who was probably punching out the holes one by one.
While this item was sold less than 2 months ago as genuine for $1500+ to some unfortunate collector.
Chris (Krzysztof) Ceremuga - Professional Philatelic Expert & Consultant
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Chris Ceremuga »

EXAMPLE 2:

SG O14 cat £10,000
(without OS perfin cat £3000, but in fact the difference in rarity is on order of magnitude greater, as the perf OS maybe 50 or 100 times rarer)

This item was rejected by me in 2014 as FORGED perfin, based on detailed physical examination.

While in 2015 the the self-declared “experts” from the PCNZA issued for it a so-called “certificate” as “genuine”, based apparently solely on scan.
(PCNZA “certificate” number “2015-005”)


Image
Image

This is a very dangerous forgery with hole positions being excellent.
But it was an example where from detailed physical examination there were features that meant I was 100% certain the perfin was FORGED.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Chris Ceremuga »

EXAMPLE 3:

SG O13 cat £5500
(without OS perfin cat £900, but in fact the difference in rarity is on order of magnitude greater, as the perf OS maybe 50 or 100 times rarer)

In 2017 the the self-declared “experts” from the PCNZA issued for it a so-called “certificate” as “genuine”, based apparently solely on scan. (PCNZA “certificate” number “2017-001hv”)

Image

While hole positions seem excellent, it looks to me like merely a different type of perfin forgery.

The perfin holes show totally incorrect characteristics, so even from a scan one can make negative comments about it.
Last edited by Chris Ceremuga on 20 Nov 2017 00:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Chris, if very valuable stamps like these were issued with Certificates (and I personally have no proof they were) the PCNZA were very foolish in my view, as at LEAST they need to be examined in person.

I accept that is not easy, as members are not all in one geographical area, and mailing $15,000 pieces around gets costly - and risky.

PCNZA appear to have stuck their collective heads deep in the sand sadly on this matter, rather than respond, which makes them look very foolish IMHO, and doubtless to others.

Maybe they will come out of their coma and respond, now you have added 3 specific examples that you claim they have issued genuine Certs for? Lets hope so, and I am of course asking them to avail themselves of that perfect public opportunity.

Anyway if it is true they are issuing Certs on $15,000 cat items, like the bi-colour, without ever seeing it, they are being very cavalier, to put it mildly. :idea:

Expressing firm written "Certificate" opinions on such value stamps is a large responsibility, and should not be taken lightly.

There is no independent umpire here sadly. So need for more examples, as it will simply assist forgers even further.

Other members, or PCNZA Committee might have some views on them. But I repeat once again, I am not going to allow stampboards become a tutorial for forgers. :idea:

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Rod Perry »

Chris Ceremuga wrote: The OS perfins are one of the most difficult & dangerous fields in all of philately.
Couldn't agree more with you, Chris.

I'll go one step further: in the cases of the Bicolours, in particular, until we have a reliable historical data base of these stamps, extracted from printed matter (notably auction catalogues, price lists), primarily to enable us to make before and after comparisons, I'll forever struggle to have confidence in punctures of those more valuable items.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by mobbor »

Thanks Chris for making the effort to provide some examples. For me, it's a bit pointless, because I am none the wiser, so I'll just continue to stay away from them.

One thing that hasn't been discussed is that with used stamps, if the postmark crosses over one of more perf. holes, it might be possible to determine whether the postmark was applied before or afterwards- that was the main point of using the electron microscope mentioned above. Any comments?

I have plated many thousands of KGV for a retired dealer. In one sending there were over 80 of the heavily forged 1½d no watermarks, including about 10 with listed flaws; all OS. That's quite a few $'worth. I don't doubt they're genuine, but asked him how he was going to market them- didn't get an answer.

Of course, many KGV issues are not really in question, because forging them is pointless financially. However, some forgeries are pointless:-

Image

This CofA wmk does not exist perf OS, not to mention the weird spacing of the holes, and maybe their shape. One assumes it was discarded, but it is puzzling how it got into a huge lot of superb and totally unpicked roos and KGVs.

Rod

I appreciate your comments too. I agree having them on cover gives you better odds. When it comes to before and after comparisons, your man is Traralgon 3844, who has done that extensively with Ebay offerings- should be a valuable record when the stamps are re-sold.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

mobbor wrote:
this CofA wmk does not exist perf OS
Mike, the downfall of sweeping statements is they are mostly wrong, and often highly misleading.

Of course the CofA watermark KGV heads do legitimately exist perf OS, in the 1d, 2d, 3d and 4d values, if you read your ACSC.

If you meant to say the FIVE PENCE CofA should not exist perf OS please be specific, or you may well mislead those who take sweeping and vague comments such as yours at face value. :idea:

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by mobbor »

O.K., point taken; apologies. Even though the image above I was referring was a 5d, the statement could be misleading.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Rod Perry »

Rod Perry wrote:
Chris Ceremuga wrote: The OS perfins are one of the most difficult & dangerous fields in all of philately.
Couldn't agree more with you, Chris.

I'll go one step further: in the cases of the Bicolours, in particular, until we have a reliable historical data base of these stamps, extracted from printed matter (notably auction catalogues, price lists), primarily to enable us to make before and after comparisons, I'll forever struggle to have confidence in punctures of those more valuable items.

Rod
Mobbor:

"I appreciate your comments too. I agree having them on cover gives you better odds. When it comes to before and after comparisons, your man is Traralgon 3844, who has done that extensively with Ebay offerings- should be a valuable record when the stamps are re-sold."

It would be wonderful if Traralgon 3844 could assemble a data base of the bicoloured Kangaroos, offered in print form over the past century. Perhaps he can?

No less is required, and it's possible, drawing upon the libraries of PHILAS and RPSV. The Kellow Library may be able to fill some gaps.

Only with such a data base can we determine the subsequent manipulation of the stamps in terms of puncturing otherwise normal stamps, and the introduction of reperforating, repairing, regumming.

It's a gargantuan project, but one which MUST ultimately be undertaken if we can expect collectors to continue to have the confidence to pay five-figure sums for this type of material indefinitely.

Simon Dunkerley and I undertook to get the data base ball rolling, in the 1990s.

I provided images of every bicoloured Kangaroo I ever offered at auction; Simon tackled other sources.

Simon was the prime researcher, and advised me several years before his passing that he was becoming disturbed by the amount of tampering he determined that many bicoloured Kangaroos had been subjected to, even from what was a relatively small sampling.

Perhaps Allenswood has some ideas as to how such a data base might be achieved?

Australian Philately is poorly lagging in this regard in utilising modern technology.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

The newest account of the Greek Forger antiquesunlimited111_1 has this quite appalling fake large 'OS' that even the DOPIEST ebay Bunnies should be able to spot.

A $550 stamp if genuine so ALL members should report this and all the totally forged 1913 CTO cancels he is peddling from that same account

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1913-2-5d-Indigo-with-Large-OS-perforation-Mint/302543648673
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by rsellens »

Image

This double perfed large OS has recently been added to Ebay by the greek forger aka antiquesunlimited111_1

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1913-3d-Olive-1st-wmk-with-Doubl ... 2574475219

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

rsellens - all collectors of this material should report this to ebay, and have it removed as a nonsense crude forgery.

The PCNZA (Perfin Cub of Australia and New Zealand) used to do a great job in that exact area, but it appears they have disbanded from lack of interest, or lack of direction, or internal implosion or something. :idea:

Point out the other similar fakes his other current IDs have been offering. The first ID cost bat about $40,000 in refunds, so they'll get the idea eventually dumb as they might be. 108 Negatives in 2 months is their guide - one day they'll wake up and ban ALL his accounts and save themselves a lot of money.

https://feedback.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2& ... 1438.l2776

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1913-Penny-Red-TRIAL-with-Double- ... 3294604884

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1913-1-2d-green-First-wmk-with-V ... 3235285515

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Philatelics (Australia) »

We had this come in for a future auction today, was part of a collection of a deceased estate that had been held for some time ....and not added to in any significant way for some time before the owner passed away.

Image

By the centering and the position of the OS it would likely appear to be from the same strip as the first stamp on this post, but not the adjoining pair that had been removed. The second strike of the OS like the first stamp in the post is on a very slight angle so appears slightly lower than the first example.

I'm thinking this pair adds a little weight to Chris Ceremuga being correct in issuing a certificate stating the first stamp in this post is genuine, so will open this post up for further discussion of the various merits.

Here is the reverse side....

Image

Regards

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Steve - 105% genuine I'd say, (based on one particular professional eye observation, that I am not sharing with our serial faker) and I always have held the view the other 1d double OS was genuine as well.

The Perfin Society of Australia appears to have disbanded or imploded etc, so worth adding your pair here for the record.

Some folks forget that any ''OS'' or official perfins were regarded as near worthless "damaged stamps" kiddies album fillers in the 1940s and 1950s and 1960s by senior collectors, and almost always were sneered at, in all forms.

Many major rarities are not catalogued in ACSC - to this day.

The Arthur Gray, Shreves sale in New York 11 years back, had this manky, and horribly foxed and creased pair below, Lot 298, on small piece of OHMS letter, with 4d Kangaroos both showing INVERTED large "OS" perfins, both stamps with large chunks ripped out. With two strikes of "Adelaide/Ap 30/15/Registered" cds.

Image

1913 4d Kangaroo stamp, perfin Large OS, inverted puncture pair, ex Arthur Gray

Despite the horrific faults, and quite appalling appearance, it was invoiced back then for about $A1,000 - at many times estimate. STILL not mentioned or listed in ACSC, despite existence of this clear OHMS proving piece, and the Gray provenance.

I bought a nice single FU one of the same error last month from a collection not looked at for about 50 years, that I put into stock for $500, and also a clearly postally used £1 Grey "OS" perfin, that the ACSC still oddly says probably does not exist etc, except CTO. :lol:

Until Arthur and I proved to Kellow, via both owning similar placed high OS perfins, mine mint, and his used - bought decades apart, Geoff had refused to list the £2 Small Multiple watermark perf OS, as he could locate no printer records of any being done. (Today $50,000 and $45,000, and both remain unique.)

Lots of mysteries in perf OS Roos, even in 2018. :lol:
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged double perf on eBay. Member thoughts

Post by Global Administrator »

Global Administrator wrote:If I needed to venture an opinion, I'd say both are 100% genuine perfins. The perfin cuts into 2 outer RH perfs, which points to it being genuine to me. A faker would never make anything that ugly! Or that subtle.

The $2,500 price is totally silly as one expects from Status, but the "OS" look OK to me at least. However not noted in ACSC, so that is never good. :mrgreen: However ACSC is not always up to date on OS varieties. Arthur Gray's woefully ratty pair of 4d with INVERTED large OS perfins, on OHMS envelope piece sold after intense bidding for near $A1000 - 10 years back.

I bought a 1d Red used copy years ago in an ancient collection, with Large AND Small OS. Should be totally impossible of course, but is accompanied by pre-war detailed typed letter from leading philatelic scholar Dr. Raymond Collins, MBE, RDP, on its provenance and veracity.

Has clearly showing "Scratch In Bight" flaw - ACSC 2(B)e so is Die 1 which were printed in 1913.

Cancel ink bleed into both punctures, so that is essential. Has a 1913 cancel, and the small OS was introduced late 1913. Will send to Dr Kellow when I get a spare moment for his views. And it will be $500 not $2,500! 8)

Major Dormer Legge in the 1920s/1930s created all kinds of totally silly missing portions on 1d Roos, Missing Heads, missing value tablets, and so on. Rod Perry bought his pages of "FUNNIES" (as Legge marked them!) and sold them off over the decades, until quite recently.

Australia Post were hoodwinked in my view, by ASDA/ADSA to buy one of these fake "Missing Heads" for their Archives at a stupid high price. Urged to do so by a few leading ASDA/APTA dealers then and now, whose motives I'll let readers dwell upon! Arthur Gray told me he'd been offered several of them over the years, and "all were as genuine as a 3 Dollar Bill." Arfur never bought one, and that speaks volumes. :idea:

In this era J. B. Cooke regarded supplying the "free Government use" stamps as a great irritation, and stamps badly centred, badly perforated, double perforated, and otherwise defective for retail sale to the public were deliberately put aside for the rough application of OS perfins, and many strange things exist on them, in this "waste not - want not" WWI era, where nothing was tossed away.
Image
A year on, the letter from Dr. R. J. D. Collins MBE, FRPSL from Verne, Collins & Co, Christchurch, turned up in my junk-yard of a house. :lol: :lol:

May as well add it here for the permanent record. :idea:

A client bought this stamp "as is" a year back, for a very modest sum for something apparently unique, and I promised him I'd enclose the original letter, if and when it ever appeared. I mailed it to him today for his records. 8)

Letter is very aged and well worn, but Dr. Collins notes he bought the stamp in Mr Ringer's collection in 1929, a Bank Of NZ staffer, near 90 years back, so the letter will have been written fairly soon after that time. Mr. Ringer sourced stamps from "an official bank" it says - Commonwealth Bank was then Federally owned, and I assume used "OS" stamps on mail?

The stamp was inside the much folded up letter in an old glassine, and it was luckily, in great condition, due to the glassine storage.

As collector interest in all kind of 'OS' perfins 90 years back was less than zero, it is my personal view the stamp is 100% genuine. Several present day experts do not disagree who I ran it past.

Image

Image

Image

The below From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Dr. Collins was THE leading light in NZ Philately, and edited or co-edited ALL the major works - a Dr Geoff Kellow of NZ in his time!

I have no doubt his claim as to the 1929 origin of this 1d double "OS" in his letter is 100% true.

Raymond James George Collins MBE (8 August 1897 – 5 June 1965) was a New Zealand philatelist who was added to the Roll of Distinguished Philatelists in London in 1936, and was the youngest man to then receive that honour.

Collins organized the first New Zealand philatelic exhibition and congress, at which the New Zealand Philatelic Council was formed. That same year he was appointed the New Zealand representative of the Royal Philatelic Society, London.

The founder of Verne Collins & Company of Christchurch, Collins was a prolific author on the philately of New Zealand and edited and published the “New Zealand Stamp Collector” until shortly before his death.

He was appointed a Member of the Order of the British Empire in the 1957 New Year Honours list.


Collins, R.J.C. (1924). "The stamps of the Pacific Islands". Christchurch: Verne & Co.

Collins, R.J.C. (1926). "The cancellations of New Zealand". Christchurch: Verne & Co.

Collins, R.J.C. (1951). "The most interesting postage stamp of New Zealand." - Christchurch: Verne & Co.

Lee, G.R. (1953). Collins, R.J.C.; Watts, C.W., eds. "The Penny Universal of New Zealand". Wellington: Royal Philatelic Society of New Zealand.

"The 2s Pictorial of 1935-1942, Plate 1" - Collins, RJG - Verne, Collins & Co

"New Zealand a philatelic handbook" - Collins, RJG - Verne & Co

"Extracts from the Appendices to the Journals of the House of Representatives relating to postal affairs" - Collins, RJG (comp)

"The Postage Stamps of New Zealand Vol V" - Collins, RJG ; Burge, AR ; Watts, CW (eds) RPSNZ

"The Postage Stamps of New Zealand - Collins, RJG ; Fathers, HTM (eds) PSNZ

"The Postage Stamps of New Zealand, Vol II" - Collins, RJG ; Watts, CW (eds) RPSNZ

"The Postage Stamps of New Zealand, Vol III" - Collins, RJG ; Watts, CW (eds) RPSNZ

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Rod Perry »

Rod Perry wrote:The Robson Lowe Encyclopaedia (1962) listed punctured Large "OS" double for the 1d and 2d.

From an historical perspective, in that volume punctured "OS" are generally priced at 50% normal. Curiously, Third wmk. issues are 150% of normal prices?

It's probable that the premium for Third wmk. punctures was an incentive for a forger, particularly one alert to the possibilities presented by the UK/European markets.

A considerable incentive to "create" punctures, however, was provided by Yvert. Decades before the 1980s Seven Seas Stamps inclusion of punctures in their illustrated album, Yvert had spaces for punctures in their equivalent illustrated album.

Frank Thornhill, a leading specialist trader in Australia of his time (notably 1930s/1970s), was always seeking the more difficult "OS" punctures for wants list clients. I learnt from Frank that Europeans were the driving force amongst those clients; presumably Yvert disciples.

Frank first approached me with his list of required punctures when I was a wholesaler in the late 1960s. He was prepared to pay attractive prices for his requirements, but rarely could I find anything for him.

The incentive to fake punctures was well in place prior to the post 1985 boom.

That infamous puncturing device, the subject of another thread on SB, in use until just a few years ago, was in fact not a modern apparatus.

It is believed to have been in use prior to the early 1950s.

Rod
On the subject of historical values of punctured "OS" Kangaroos vs normal stamps, here follows a view which I had not encountered previously:
Image

Catalogue of the Stamps of the Australian Commonwealth 1938, published by Society of Australasian Specialists, Omaha, Nebr.

Image
Note under "FIRST ISSUE" ("First Watermark") at left: "Stamps of this issue punctured large OS for official use, are worth three times the value of the ordinary stamps. Those punctured small OS are worth double the prices in the above list." [Prices for later wmk. "OS" are also double]

The above comment will surprise many (it did me!).

Footnote: “The Society of Australasian Specialists" was founded in July 1936 by a small group of collectors interested in Australasian philately. In 1965, the American Society of Australian Philatelists, later to become Oceania, Inc. was established for the same purpose as the older SAS. In 1978, the two Societies consolidated to better serve the members of both organizations. Today, the Society has many members, not only in the United States and Canada, but also in New Zealand, Australia, Great Britain, and a few other countries. [quoted from The Philatelic Database website]

I'm impressed that the Society was using the correct terminology "punctured" (rather than incorrect "perforated") nearly six decades before ACSC!

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by MJ's pet »

The 1938 catalogue is interesting, but the Yanks were always decades ahead of the Australians insofar as interest in and collecting perfins (oops, punctures) was concerned.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Rod Perry wrote:
Note under "FIRST ISSUE" ("First Watermark") at left: "Stamps of this issue punctured large OS for official use, are worth three times the value of the ordinary stamps. Those punctured small OS are worth double the prices in the above list." [Prices for later wmk. "OS" are also double]

The above comment will surprise many (it did me!).
Does not really suprise me Rod - to be fair large OS in any denomination are probably 10 to some 100 times scarcer than non OS.

Recent fiddling with ACSC prices cannot alter that FACT!

I bought a few 1000 1d Red Roos on paper from an estate recently, and needed to roughly count them in order to set the price.

If 1 in 100 was OS of EITHER type I'd be surprised. :mrgreen:

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Jezza »

If your interested , there is another 1d red double perf OS, listed on Ebay now. complete with toning.

MODERATOR COMMENT.

I suppose a link would be too much to ask for. Or even a photo?

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by MJ's pet »

Jezza wrote:If your interested , there is another 1d red double perf OS, listed on Ebay now. complete with toning.

MODERATOR COMMENT.

I suppose a link would be too much to ask for. Or even a photo?
Here it is. Jesus Christ, people bid on this sh*t, from this seller? :roll:

eBay item number:173856009268
seller: strampsdownunder
End date: 04 Apr 2019 20:03:11 AEDST
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1913-Penny-Red-With-Variety-Double-OS/173856009268
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