1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoughts?

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

David Benson wrote:
The other way of proving it as genuine (or not) would be plate the stamp and the position of the punched OS. if they match, most probably OK but if not, then fake.

David B.
That should work, and the Greg Pope handbook would allow that.

The badly positioned OS will be the original one, and the better placed one done afterwards as Rod surmised. And as being an apparent ready repair might have a different position placement.

However we oddly have been assured by PCNZA that NEITHER perfin matched their lists, and which lists they agree are not conclusive or consistent in any way. Maybe. They seem unsure.
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"Knowledge is Power" and those less familiar with this issue, will not realise things like this below were sold to the public during WWI at face.

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I bought this amazing Monogram block from Arthur Gray auction, and sold it to Peter Schoer, and his Estate sold it back, and it quickly found a new home, and that person sold it back, and I placed it again to a member here. :mrgreen:

There were 3 or 4 disparate blocks/strips of 1d from all over the sheet, crudely patched together here with PO repair selvedge tape, as clearly it had been double perfed and ample evidence of that is at base. THIS kind of ugly thing Cooke mostly ordered placed aside to be perfinned OS, so plating these in OS perfinned, would be a total waste of time to prove any point. :mrgreen:
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Benson »

Glen,

In the next Philas sale there is a complete pane of the 1d. perf. OS NSW. This would act as a perfect template to identify every plate position of the stamp and would be useful to verify the perf. OS.

Lot # 1078,

David B.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by numisphil »

We have over 100 years full time stamp experience between us.
Glen,

Chris Ceremuga issues certificates for items sold by the firm which employs him. You are a legend in your own loungeroom. Therefore, if I were thinking of purchasing this item I would be swayed by the opinion of PCNZA. Without a certificate from them, the status of this item will always be dubious and as such, if I were a serious collector of perfins, I would avoid buying it.

The discussion on this Board has done nothing to raise the status of this item; if anything it has rendered the item almost unsellable regardless of how many irrelevant ‘trip down Arthur Gray memory lane’ stories you wish propagate this discussion with.

You say you have your reasons for thinking this item is genuine and yet you won’t divulge them for fear of the information getting into the hands of forgers. Is this another way of saying you have no idea why you think the item is genuine other than it makes for yet another one of your ‘controversial’ rants on Stampboards?

IF THIS SAME ITEM HAD BEEN OFFERED FOR SALE ON EBAY YOU WOULD HAVE DECLARED IT A FAKE WITHOUT THINKING TWICE.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

numisphil wrote:
IF THIS SAME ITEM HAD BEEN OFFERED FOR SALE ON EBAY YOU WOULD HAVE DECLARED IT A FAKE WITHOUT THINKING TWICE.
Tony, your conga line of fact free diarrhoea nonsense posts is sinking to new lows - if that were indeed possible. :roll:

The stamp we are discussing IS listed only on ebay. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

You are living on your own bitter little Planet Corbisiero, so that bog-basic obvious fact has escaped you it seems. No surrise there. Please READ threads in future before making childish comments. Rather than as usual, swoop in like an Italian seagull and crap on those having adult discussions, so others can learn more about this hobby, and fly away chuckling.

If you actually READ discussions rather than Seagull Swoop them, you will then note the FIRST post on this thread had this link below. This is a link to ebay.

The words www.ebay.com below are the big clue for you Tony. Let's know if we can assist your reading and internet comprehension in any further way. We are here to help - even failed and bitter and twisted stamp dealers. :lol: :lol: :lol:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AUSTRALIA-1913-Kangaroo-1d-perf-O ... 2944138911

And I stated right at the onset, the stamp perfins looked fine to me, (for various reasons, and lots of experience) as did Rodney Perry. My other comment was that it is offered at the usual insane Status Stamps asking price. That has no bearing on it's genuineness.

Unlike you, I have made a success of stamp dealing over 40 years, no stamp auction has sacked me, and my opinion still stands. You have not offered ANY opinion on the stamp in question - and that says it all really, and perfectly summarises your philatelic 'expertise'. Classic troll behaviour.

Glen
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

David Benson wrote:Glen,

In the next Philas sale there is a complete pane of the 1d. perf. OS NSW. This would act as a perfect template to identify every plate position of the stamp and would be useful to verify the perf. OS.

David B.
David well not so helpful really. :mrgreen:

There were 11 different plates of 120, of the 1d Kangaroo, and 3 separate dies! Each stamp on each plate with mostly small but distinct plating flaws. Plates A to Plate K as ACSC clearly tells us. If you can round up all 11 plates, THAT would be useful. :)

As I posted earlier, the superb and thick Greg Pope 1d Kangaroo handbook in colour will likely allow this stamp on ebay to be plated. It they DO plate it that would assist PCNZA greatly I am sure as it helped with the stamp below. Status Stamps is bound to have one in their library. I have one too, but am not wasting my Saturday afternoon squinting at each photo in it! :lol: :lol: :lol:

This impossible looking 1d Roo double perf that I posted earlier (that now has been confirmed for me by a perfin expert as both having likely genuine perfins) helpfully has a clearly showing "Scratch In Bight" flaw - thus being ACSC 2(B)e, stamp 24, left pane, of Plate B.
Image
So we know this is the final stamp, by the central interpanneau gutter, on the left pane of 60, of the 4th row, of Plate B.

Knowing THAT fact for certain as we do, the placement on the large OS is verified by those who know such things, as being correct, so far as one can say, as it will be unit 6 of the perfin head set up of 12.

The very old typed letter I have from Dr. Collins, MBE (the Dr. Geoff Kellow of New Zealand Philately in WW2 era and later, who edited the massive "Postage Stamps Of New Zealand" opus set) re the discovery of this stamp in worthless kiloware, will be added provenance when I find it, if the stamp is not sold for $500 before that occurs. Indeed if I find the letter soon, it will be a $1,000 item. :lol: :lol:

So yes David, owning ELEVEN full sheets 120 of 1d Roos would help (no-one does by the way) - but Pope's book is faster and FAR cheaper! 8)

However the sheet 120 you mention 'OS NSW' sounds cool. I recall seeing a Ceremuga Certificate as genuine for a Roo 3d with 2 different formats of "OS NSW" double overlapping perfins on the same stamp. Someone here may recall it better, or have an image even, but 2 different official perfins on one stamp is clearly not unheard of.

Glen
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Global Administrator wrote:
Signed -

"big noting self important tosser"

(A "tosser" who still believes these perfins are very likely genuine, as does Rod Perry and Chris Ceremuga. We have over 100 years full time stamp experience between us. And David Coath has ........ )
Image
Add Dr Geoff Kellow RSPSL, with his 40 or 50 years of detailed experience to the list of those who appear to have no real issues with this stamp. David Coath possibly regards him too a "self-important tosser" ? :roll:

Dr Kellow described this same stamp for an auction earlier this year, and was able to examine it in person, and described it as - "A spectacular variety." It was invoiced for $932, presumably to Status, who added their usual modest mark up to the current $2,500. :mrgreen:

Everyone savvy venturing an opinion on it, appears to regard it as perfectly genuine "So Far As One Can Say" - except the PSNZA. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Tounga »

Is there any point in postings that the PCNZA said this is forgery?

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by fchd »

Tounga wrote:Is there any point in postings that the PCNZA said this is forgery?

As far as I can see, they haven't said it is a forgery, merely that they will not certify it as genuine.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged double perf on eBay. Member thoughts

Post by satsuma »

Global Administrator wrote:
In this era J. B. Cooke regarded supplying the "free Government use" stamps as a great irritation, and stamps badly centred, badly perforated, double perforated, and otherwise defective for retail sale to the public were deliberately put aside for the rough application of OS perfins, and many strange things exist on them, in this "waste not - want not" WWI era, where nothing was tossed away.
I've often been shot down before for venturing an opinion tangential to the main thread, but I'll risk it again to ask:

Regarding this logically rather than philatelically, if nothing was tossed away and defective stamps were perfinned for free government use, why would anyone bother to use a second pass of the OS perfin machine to improve the centering?

Why just not send the single badly perfinned centred stamps off to the officials?

I know there is no definitive answer to this but it is a factor to consider.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Allanswood »

The second pass may have been accidental.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by fossick »

Or the sheet may have been used to recalibrate the punch which had become out of alignment rather than waste a new sheet if they didn't get it right at first try?

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged double perf on eBay. Member thoughts

Post by Global Administrator »

satsuma wrote: if nothing was tossed away and defective stamps were perfinned for free government use, why would anyone bother to use a second pass of the OS perfin machine to improve the centering?

Why just not send the single badly perfinned centred stamps off to the officials?

I know there is no definitive answer to this but it is a factor to consider.
We are looking at ONE stamp in isolation here. You and I have ZERO idea what the OTHER 12 in the original strike looked like. :mrgreen:

The OS perfins might well have been even more way off the stamp on the others in the grid of 12.

Take a look at this strip 6. LEFT hand stamp is perfect if taken in isolation, yet RIGHT hand stamp has a very badly placed perfin on row above getting worse on each sheet position.

Image

To tear this apart even very carefully by a collector would have been near impossible, as the lower chunks of the top "O" would near rip apart, leaving a large hunk of stamp missing.

This is WHY the large OS perfin was abandoned within months - the stamps even if WELL perfinned tore apart when being separated into singles
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Allanswood »

fossick wrote:Or the sheet may have been used to recalibrate the punch which had become out of alignment rather than waste a new sheet if they didn't get it right at first try?

Regards

John G
I can't see how a fixed in place die could go out of alignment. Also there would have been paper everywhere with no need or risk to use a sheet of actual stamps to test if the position was correct. You could see it with you eyes before punching or punch an offcut.

And what punch was first, the good or the bad?

Looking at my sheet of KGV it is obvious that they have been punched by mechanical means to advance each row past the die much the same as the comb perf itself. But I don't know if they started that way with the earlier large OS.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Didge »

Folks,

Rod has just put me on to this topic. It looks very interesting.

Tim

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Chris Ceremuga »

I do not have time this week to prepare a detailed reply to all assorted nonsense that was posted by the 3 self-proclaimed “experts” from the PCNZA.

So at this stage I will just briefly make 2 comments:


(1) The stamp comes from Arthur Gray’s specialist collection/exhibit of the Kangaroo 1d red, which was split up & sold earlier this year.

My certificate is from 2011, and as far as I can recall, Arthur wanted a certificate “so that some idiot would not dispute it at some exhibition”.

Arthur Gray had considered it to be 100% genuine, so he can be added to the list of eminent philatelists & philatelic professionals who considered the item to be 100% genuine.

And readers can compare the philatelic achievements of Arthur Gray etc, to the philatelic achievements (?) of the self-proclaimed “experts” from the PCNZA ……….


(2) I dispute all the specific claims that they have made about the physical characteristics of the perfins on this stamp, as those claims are are simply factually incorrect.

Furthermore, I consider PCNZA's claimed “scientific” methodology of "expertizing" of OS perfins based on measurements from scans to be fatally flawed.

(They are claiming to be "expertizing" items without examining the actual stamps!!!)

I consider such claimed “expertizing" methodology to be without any scientific basis whatsoever, and to be imprecise & inaccurate, and I therefore simply reject its validity.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by johnrcrow »

What is the back like?

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Post by David Benson »

Chris,

wonder what they say on their certificates,

" We have examined the above scan ",

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by iaincraven »

Does anyone other than the PCNZA currently certify large and small OS Roo single mint stamps? I buy a lot of better Australia collections in the UK and these often have very strong OS sections with varying level of "provenance" (from very good through to highly suspect).

But due to historic undesirability the key OS stamps usually have no specific traceability, occasionally an old certificate, but often none.

I was under the impression that no other cert bodies were issuing OS certificates and the Perfin Club's approach of allocating to OS dies taken from blocks and sheets and cross-checking position against plating sounds like a huge positive step forward.

Am not really clear from this thread why that is regarded as unreliable or incorrect. But is it still possible to get certificates for mint OS stamps from other certification bodies? And are those certificates generally accepted?
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Post by David Benson »

Ian,

re.
cross-checking position against plating
where was this mentioned,

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by iaincraven »

where was this mentioned,
Was bit earlier in the thread, I thought it at least sounded a very promising approach (I have no idea at what level of accuracy this is able to be done and whether it is reliable).
You have correctly identified the layout of the machine punch head as 12 dies in a horizontal array with a gap between dies 6 and 7 to allow for the centre shelvage. Now the layout is important as it allows the 12 dies to be plated and the slight variations in the dies to be mapped into the database for this pattern. As John Graham said this was done using an entire sheet of 1d Roos perf large OS.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Benson »

Ian,

plating against the various OS types or the underlying stamp positions,

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by iaincraven »

Unless I'm totally misunderstanding the plating is against the underlying stamp positions. I don't have ACSC to hand, but from memory I think the ROSTAGE stamp is position 1(?) on the left(?) sheet (if not then assume it is for this discussion :lol: ), so this stamp variety stamp would always struck by the OS position 1 perforating die:

Image

If a ROSTAGE variety stamp didn't match the specific positioning of the large OS position 1 die pins (or maybe the position 2 incase of a marginal 1 position OS offset) then it would be an anomaly needing an explanation (or a fake).

And the same exact OS die pin position should match the stamps directly below this - so stamps 7, 13, 19, etc in the left pane. The right-hand pane would be struck by OS die positions 7-12. BUT I'm only describing what I understand from this thread, I've zero idea whether this can be done accurately enough to actually expertise stamps and also no idea if the OS perforator dies remainded in "constant position" over the Large OS period.

To me it seemed at least a worthwhile approach to consider for looking at these. Particularly since I thought all the other cert bodies were currently declining to certify OS perfins. Seems this methodology is being dismissed without any obvious explanation as to why - personally I can see pure accuracy of measurement being a valid query, but it sounds like this has been a consideration with the approach.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Benson »

Ian,

that was my suggestion which I mentioned because Philas have a complete pane of the 1d. perf. OS, NSW but was later informed that there were 11 different plates of 120 which would make the task formidable, most probably impossible.

PCNZA positioning relates to the perforating forme of 12,

David B.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Allanswood »

What is meant us that there are only 12 dies. So for die '1', if your OS perf example is from the first column and does not have a die '1' punch, then something is wrong. If it matches none of the mapped die's then it may well be forged.

I doubt they are going to plate the stamp first (if all 11? 1d plates have been mapped), but if you have a column 1, die '1' example from any plate of any value, then that's pretty good evidence of being genuine.

But that is just another nice chunk of the "is it genuine" puzzle. If it looks good (physical examination of known characteristics), measures well (matches known parameters) and as a bonus has provenance dating back before OS perfs went 'wild' then it would be difficult to argue that it is forged and would be happily accepted by everyone.

Ultimately though it's up to the buyer to be happy enough to consider the price and then chose to own it based on the evidence presented to him/her.

It all goes pear shaped when it's a rare example, or previously unknown, or a production anomaly like the above doubles.
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Post by David Benson »

What made the misunderstanding is the comment,

" spread throughout the sheet ",

They are not spread but in row order,

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Iain -- your theory works fine - in theory! :lol: :lol: :lol:

'ROSTAGE' etc, we know is from a set position in the stamp pane.

In theory it will have a set unit of the gang of 12 large OS perfins punch it.

HOWEVER the PCNZA screamed at me above, that "no-one" knows if those 12 pin positions ever changed, them included, when I suggested the obvious simplicity of using that system to certify the double perf below. "Yes or No as genuine."

They say neither OS perfin matches their "12 Apostles" or any they have ever seen, and that both perfins differ from each other. But STILL can't declare it as fake or genuine, even saying that! The absolute wrong position to take, if you state you can accurately expertise perfins from photos. :roll: :roll:

Arthur Gray, Chris Ceremuga, Dr. Geoff Kellow, FRPSL, Glen Stephens and Rodney Perry and others all felt this stamp below was OK. PCNZA say they collectively have absolutely no idea. Hmmmmm. Speaks volumes really. :shock:

Image

PCNZA said these 2 perfins did not match their "12 Apostles". And I posted, that surely meant it could then be branded a fake perfin. (Which as I stated at onset, I did not feel it was, for several excellent reasons.) It had to be either fake or genuine - not half pregnant.

Then I was pounced on from all sides there by PCNZA, and called an ignorant tosser etc, which translated, means they have no absolutely idea what occurred, with even large OS perfins, and shooting the messenger was the policy preferred adopted, to cover this very serious vacuum in their knowledge.

So Iain, no-one can be CERTAIN these days. NO-ONE has an opinion that is The Gold Standard on OS perfins.

Provenance is important as always. I do not always agree with Chris Ceremuga's views on all things philatelic, and I am sure he does not always agree with mine, which is healthy, but I am sure we mostly take very similar positions, and it is obvious we both as here, do not agree with PCNZA re this stamp in discussion is completely genuine, and clearly so.

Many of us with decades in the trade can dismiss as OUTRIGHT fakes many items, using varying tests and long experience, that the average collector has no idea about. But some stamps, even multiples, are in Limbo.

Multiples do assist of course, and again provenance. I bought stockbooks of OS Kangaroo and KGV perfs from Harmers of Sydney in the late 1970s from the massive and extremely valuable H. F. McNess collection, untouched since WW2. McNess had a liking for them, and amassed the largest holding then known, in an era where they were worth peanuts mostly. I bought them PT as one massive lot. I still have much of that here, and it is my view none of those are forged due to that PROVENANCE, and as the faking essentially commenced in the 1980's when Seven Seas make album pages for them, and later on SG listed them.

Moving on from that torrent of personal abuse, oddly, none of the PCNZA "Experts" has commented on this block below that I posted.

Clearly stamp 60 here, if later perfinned large OS SHOULD bear perfin pattern number 6 or 12 from the "gang of 12 Apostles". But it will not, most likely, as stamp 60 was PO selvedge pasted into position from somewhere from another sheet.

So in ISOLATION as a single, it will appear "forged" which it clearly would not be. Again PERSONAL EXAMINATION of the stamp is important. The small pieces of selvedge paste up pieces on reverse for instance are key in such cases. You cannot see those from a facial photo.

Expertising perfins for a fee, without physically inspecting them, is Voodoo Science, and is simply Amateur Hour stuff. One can SEE many things on a perfin under very close physical examination that helps verify it - or not.

Such messed up paste-up wrecks was WHAT Cooke mostly destined for official perfins, so your theory works fine - in theory!

So if PCNZA clearly have zero idea whatever on the short lived Large OS punctures, as to whether any are genuine perfins or not, they clearly have less than zero accurate clue on small OS perfins which covered several decades on Roos.

PCNZA do very good work I had always thought, and I have in the past very actively supported their efforts, until the weird events and hysterical personal abuse and manic rants on this thread - rather than calmly addressing the question, and I had always assumed they had good systems in place.

As PSNZA Committee Member David Coath has seen above, such rants are not edited or removed here, but stand as clear testimony to the foolishness and childishness of using personal abuse to try and de-rail serious discussions. His foolish actions have set back the good work and standing of PCNZA by about 10 years I'd suggest.

I have personally done FAR more work than ANY stamp dealer in this country to combat forged OS perfins being offered. Indeed expended more effort than all the other stamp dealers here combined most likely, continually via this board for over a decade, and global stamp columns for 30 years, and direct contact with ebay etc, to have many of the faker's accounts wiped. And PCNZA of course work to that end too. My reward for those many 100 of hours of work to protect THEIR collections, is to be labelled an ignorant tosser by a PCNZA Executive, and so be it - I have VERY broad shoulders.

Getting back to Iain's question - the reality is this kind of thing occurred pretty often -
Global Administrator wrote:
David Benson wrote:
The other way of proving it as genuine (or not) would be plate the stamp and the position of the punched OS. if they match, most probably OK but if not, then fake.

David B.
That should work, and the Greg Pope handbook would allow that.

The badly positioned OS will be the original one, and the better placed one done afterwards as Rod surmised. And as being an apparent ready repair might have a different position placement.

However we oddly have been assured by PCNZA that NEITHER perfin matched their lists, and which lists they agree are not conclusive or consistent in any way. Maybe. They seem unsure.
..............
"Knowledge is Power" and those less familiar with this issue, will not realise things like this below were sold to the public during WWI at face.

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I bought this amazing Monogram block from Arthur Gray auction, and sold it to Peter Schoer, and his Estate sold it back, and it quickly found a new home, and that person sold it back, and I placed it again to a member here. :mrgreen:

There were 3 or 4 disparate blocks/strips of 1d from all over the sheet, crudely patched together here with PO repair selvedge tape, as clearly it had been double perfed and ample evidence of that is at base. THIS kind of ugly thing Cooke mostly ordered placed aside to be perfinned OS, so plating these in OS perfinned, would be a total waste of time to prove any point. :mrgreen:
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Rod Perry »

iaincraven wrote:Unless I'm totally misunderstanding the plating is against the underlying stamp positions. I don't have ACSC to hand, but from memory I think the ROSTAGE stamp is position 1(?) on the left(?) sheet (if not then assume it is for this discussion :lol: ), so this stamp variety stamp would always struck by the OS position 1 perforating die:

Image

If a ROSTAGE variety stamp didn't match the specific positioning of the large OS position 1 die pins (or maybe the position 2 incase of a marginal 1 position OS offset) then it would be an anomaly needing an explanation (or a fake).

And the same exact OS die pin position should match the stamps directly below this - so stamps 7, 13, 19, etc in the left pane. The right-hand pane would be struck by OS die positions 7-12. BUT I'm only describing what I understand from this thread, I've zero idea whether this can be done accurately enough to actually expertise stamps and also no idea if the OS perforator dies remainded in "constant position" over the Large OS period.

To me it seemed at least a worthwhile approach to consider for looking at these. Particularly since I thought all the other cert bodies were currently declining to certify OS perfins. Seems this methodology is being dismissed without any obvious explanation as to why - personally I can see pure accuracy of measurement being a valid query, but it sounds like this has been a consideration with the approach.
A good theory, Iain.

However, the theory assumes that puncturing occurred only on complete sheets.

I doubt that this was the case, particularly for the bicolours.

More likely, I believe, puncturing occurred for those high denominations when demand arose. The rarity of most issues (genuine, that is) suggests that sequence.

For the lower denominations, if the general belief that less than perfect stamps were adapted as a preference for puncturing is correct, then it would have been "off-cuts" from sheets that would have been so treated.

In other words, the stamps in a sheet deemed suitable for public consumption were distributed to Post Offices accordingly. Sheets of Kangaroos are rarely completely perfect, or imperfect.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Tounga »

I am amazed that after all these posts the for and against, lots of rants and raves where are we situated?

No facts in any posts to confirm its Genuine just opinions.
Arthur Grey thought it was ok but he sought an opinion.
One wonders where he sourced this strip from?

Ones knowledge is gained over time and opinions are given based on ones knowledge at the time.

Its extremely difficult when you believe you know everything to except any new ideas, challenges to your opinion's and excepting factual evidence based on technology.

Right from the start of this post there has been nothing but closed mindedness, diversions to grandeur and the blatant attempt to discredit the PCNZA findings.

How can a 100 years experience be wrong!!!

Well the PCNZA as mentioned is made up of just collectors we don't deal they do not make a living from stamps they just collect, how possibly do they have more then 100 years experience?

Pretty simple really they have a collective group who specialize in what they do PERFINS

The very same people that have been discredited in this post possibly would hold some of largest Australian perfin collections in the world. But what would they know.

Once again this is a repeated the Large OS was created from solid head (piece of steel) made up of 12 puncturing dies (Devices as John called them) the OS was first thought to have identical dies but with recent technology an measurement this is not the case.
They can now pinpoint dies 1 to 12.
The pins didn't bend didn't move for the life of the large OS

Many 100s of large OS perfins have been measured to a strict procedure to create an average mean.
The ability to measure genuine full sheets of large and small os only ads providence to the data already collected.

Calibrations have been incorporated into the data base covering angular punctures and many other variances .

Its pretty simple really Measure based on the procedure compare with the data base that was created on 100s genuine copies if it falls outside the standard spec it has not been perforated with the genuine device.

The huge statement of "how can the PCNZA expertise a stamp without physical inspecting it is seriously flawed"

Ae we looking at the stamp or the perfin?

We have already established that plating varieties will not help as part sheets where punctured and you cannot be guaranteed that it will match up with the puncturing die so what else can the stamp tell us this is genuine puncture?

I'm sure anybody can scan a stamp at 1200dpi send it anywhere in the world and it will still be 1200dpi scan when it gets there!!!

So the debate: the experts with 100 years experience say its good based on outdated opinions
The collecting peasants with no idea with up to date technical facts are wrong.

The facts presented still are the punctures on this stamp do not fit in the current PCNZA collective data of known large OS die types.
Not an opinion Facts Currently seriously suspect/forgery unless in the next 10 years 50 copies turn up with the stamp attributes (I highly doubt it)

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by corpman »

The facts presented still are the punctures on this stamp do not fit in the current PCNZA collective data of known large OS die types.
Not an opinion Facts Currently seriously suspect/forgery unless in the next 10 years 50 copies turn up with the stamp attributes (I highly doubt it)
50+ copies with the same attributes might turn up from the same "forger" and using this logic the PCNZA should therefore classify this as genuine.

Who knows what to believe.......

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Tounga wrote:
Right from the start of this post there has been nothing but closed mindedness
Agree 100%. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Here is post #1 -
Tounga wrote:
This has a cert but has been identified and analysed by the PCNZA forgery commity.

Both punctures have been measured against the analytical data base and both do not match any known large Os die types.

In fact the bottom left pattern is vastly different from the central strike
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Chris Ceremuga »

David,

Good point to raise about what they say, or do not say….., on the PCNZA so-called “certificates”.


Image


(1) In fact there is nothing on their so-called “certificates” to reveal that their “opinion” is based solely on a scan, and also there is nothing to say that they had never examined the actual stamp.
In my view this is EXTREMELY MISLEADING, to say the least.

There is not a single real expert or real expert group anywhere in the world that issues any sort of certificates without examining the actual stamps.
Therefore, if an item is offered with such a PCNZA so-called “certificate” then potential buyers are likely to be misled into wrongly assuming that some experts had actually examined & studied the item.


(2) On same basis I also consider their use of the name of “Perfin Expertisation Service” to be also extremely misleading.
As their claimed “expertising” methodology does not fit standard philatelic definitions of “expertisation” at all.
It would be much more correct if they called it the “Perfin Measurement Comparison Service”.


(3) On the PCNZA so-called “certificates”, the wording used by them is:

“Based on our comparison of this OS puncture ….. The OS puncture exhibits characteristics which are consistent with genuine punctures of this series & period”.

In my view such wording is also extremely misleading, to say the least.

Firstly, they had NOT done any actual comparison of the OS punctures as such, but have actually only done a comparison of a scan of the OS puncture

(hello Adobe Photoshop…… :shock: :shock: :shock: and voila a 1d to £2 “composite” scan can be easily created)

Secondly, as they talk of “…puncture …. characteristics…” one is likely to incorrectly assume that they are referring to the characteristics of puncture holes from physical examination as would be done by real experts.
While in fact the PCNZA self-proclaimed “experts” are only doing comparison of measurements of scans!
So their wordng about “…puncture …. characteristics …” refers to ???


Obviously I can not know as to how & why they selected the above wordings for their so-called “certificates”.
Whether “accidentally” ? or whether as a “deliberate marketing ploy” ? or whether ?
But I suspect they do not realize the potential of very serious legal repercussions of this in relation to their “no liability” disclaimers.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by David Benson »

re.
Arthur Gray thought it was ok but he sought an opinion.
NO, Arthur Gray sought an opinion to alleviate the possibility that some Judge would query the item and downgrade his exhibit. Arthur often mentioned that many Judges did not like to award any of his exhibits Large Gold's as the material was 20th. Century and may be looking for questionable items to approve their decisions.

David B.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Chris, I really have no idea whether the 10/- Roo you show was ever personally examined by PCNZA. (Nice Misplaced Roo variety!) - but as it is cat about $1,000 more than unperfinned, I really have to comment that issuing color Photo Certs on stamps of such value is unwise at best, IF it was simply done via a scan.

If it was, maybe the policy has tightened up since 2015 - hope so. Like all Certs, they are opinions only, but at a minimum I'd assume someone looked at such things in person. Lots of things to examine closely, not just a grid of perfin pin placement. :idea:

High standards of examination is the only way to ensure ongoing confidence in such areas.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Chris Ceremuga »

Earlier in the thread those self-proclaimed "experts" from the PCNZA made the following claims about the Kangaroo 1d double perfin.
jrg wrote: 1. neither of the OS punctures have the characteristics we expect of a genuine large OS

2. neither puncture matches any of the 12 known large OS devices

3. the two OS punctures do not match each other, as you would expect if they had been struck from the same device.
Tounga wrote: In fact the bottom left pattern is vastly different from the central strike
Additionaly, outside of Stampboards John Graham has been claiming to others that "the two punctures exhibit such significant differences between them that we are 100% certain they were not made by the same device.”

Those self-proclaimed "experts" from the PCNZA have misleadingly tried to present these claims as "facts", instead of as opinions, and they have not provided a single shred of evidence to back up their claims.
While in reality each of their claims are simply factually incorrect.


(1) Both perfins have perfect match for general characteristics of genuine large perf OS examples.

In physical examination it was actually a case that this was an example about which one could be absolutely certain about

(sometimes there are large perf OS examples were details of characteristics are somewhat uncertain, but this was not such a case)


(2) Both perfins show perfect match to one of the 12 different large OS positions that are known to me.

(I am sure I have had records of the characteristics of the 12 different positions since many many years before the PCNZA).

And on the original strip of 3 it came from there was perfect match to 3 consecutive positions, including perfect match of spacings between positions.


(3) There is perfect match between the 2 punctures on the individual stamp.


The claims from PCNZA self-declared “experts” are most obvious as being total nonsense in regards
to Tounga’s claim “In fact the bottom left pattern is vastly different from the central strike”
and John Graham’s claim “the two punctures exhibit such significant differences between them that we are 100% certain they were not made by the same device”

Image
Image
Image

BUT in fact there is a perfect match as is obvious from the above overlap comparison

(of course one has to take into account the roughly punched edges of holes that can be confirmed in physical examination).

While PCNZA fantasy measurements methodology produced such nonsense results that the PCNZA self-declared “experts” then claimed that 2 strikes were “vastly different” & “100% certain” etc.

This actually proves not that there is anything wrong with the perfins, but that their fantasy measurements methodology is fatally flawed.

Overall it looks to me like some “pseudo scientific” methodology is being attempted by people with probably zilch scientific background, and TOTALLY ZILCH UNDERSTANDING of how to really try to expertize the authenticity of OS perfins.
And results are then best described as “garbage in” “garbage out”…….


I will clearly say that in many cases of proper physical expertizing of OS perfins there is some level of uncertainty. But sometimes examples have characteristics that mean that certainty is possible.
On this specific stamp I can say that due to various factors I can be 105% certain both perfins are genuine.

And I would be extremely happy to have a bet with anybody that thinks otherwise
for 10 times the asking price of the stamp = $25,000, or for 100 times = $250,000 if they prefer.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Kainnikanada »

Chris,

I have a couple of points to make.

In one of Glen's early posts he states:
Global Administrator wrote:If I needed to venture an opinion, I'd say both are 100% genuine perfins. The perfin cuts into 2 outer RH perfs, which points to it being genuine to me. A faker would never make anything that ugly! Or that subtle.
In my scientific comparison (employing measurements based on a scan) I find that the spacing between the right edge of the lower 'S' and the left edge of the partially struck 'O' in the right perforations does agree with the general spacing of 'OS's i.e. 7mm thereby agree with Glen's observation and something a forger might have forgotten to properly recreate.

My exposure to perf 'OS's is 100% confined to the small 'OS' of the roos used as forerunners of the Ausralian occupation of New Guinea and the later Geo V and roos used ca 1918 - 1928.

Both types of the preceding perf 'OS's seem to have extremely surgical clean-cut holes with few of those chads. On the 1d in question the majority of the holes are irregular poorly perforated similar to only the upper portion of the top row of horizontal perforations. As well it appears although not conclusive that the topmost hole of the lower 'O' is either missing/blindly perfed/or weird looking since I do seem to see some type of outline of the lower portion of the circle.

I only question the quality of the hole perforations since the examples seen in Glen's postings seem to be clean-cut.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by mobbor »

My view is that the forgers have ruined the market forever. You can prove a perfin is a fake, but you can't prove it is genuine- full stop.

For the record, I have seen a used 9d roo with inverted large O.S., magnified 12000 times by an electron microscope. It probably did show that the perforation occurred before the postmark, but I for one, wasn't certain. It also had three paler marks on the back suggesting it had been inserted upside down into the sheet as a repair, which I thought was pretty convincing- are there any forgers around who are that smart? Anyway, it still hasn't got a certificate.

Experience helps, but how can anyone be certain?
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Tounga »

Chris Ceremuga wrote:(2) Both perfins show perfect match to one of the 12 different large OS positions that are known to me.

(I am sure I have had records of the characteristics of the 12 different positions since many many years before the PCNZA).
Chris Based on your opinion and the physical inspection of this stamp what position from dies 1 to 12 do the punctures relate to?

I am sure if the 12 different large OS Dies have been mapped out way before the PCNZA this vital information would have been a part of your final evaluation?

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Tounga wrote:
Chris Ceremuga wrote:(2) Both perfins show perfect match to one of the 12 different large OS positions that are known to me.

(I am sure I have had records of the characteristics of the 12 different positions since many many years before the PCNZA).
Chris Based on your opinion and the physical inspection of this stamp what position from dies 1 to 12 do the punctures relate to?

I am sure if the 12 different large OS Dies have been mapped out way before the PCNZA this vital information would have been a part of your final evaluation?

If it were that simple no-one would have any real issue with ID'ing it. :mrgreen:

One of my early posts above was exactly along those common sense lines, but I was howled down by John Graham - jrg - for being a FOOL to have stupidly imagined there were only 12 positions of the Large OS perfin grid. (Or maybe he was saying I was an "omniscient genius" - now there is a thought. No, David Coath from the PCNZA Committee (who could not even work out how the QUOTE system works here!) later said I was a clueless tosser, so think I was being branded a FOOL. 8) )

You guys can't have it both ways I am afraid.

On the one hand you all claim there were only 12 positions, and they never altered, and they never changed, and on the other hand claim there might be many more, and only a "fool" like Glen Stephens or Arthur Gray FRSPL, Chris Ceremuga, Dr. Geoff Kellow RDP, Kannickanada, and Rodney Perry etc would think or suggest otherwise. It is like a rejected Monty Python script. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
jrg wrote:
Global Administrator wrote:
The fact the Perfin Society seems NOT to be stating it is fake, but clearly is "not liking it", saying it does not match the 12 known genuine perfin settings, seems odd to me to be honest.

IF the Perfin Society is saying one or both of these 2 x 1d Red OS punctures are fake, simply state that.[/color][/b] Right now it is like being half pregnant. If these punctures allegedly do not match the 12 known puncture types, as has been stated, call it a fake - it must CLEARLY be one or the other.
Glen, you couldn't be more wrong.

There is not a soul alive who knows exactly how the 1913 production process worked. There is limited documentation in historical stamp magazines, but there is nothing extant (if it ever existed), and no-one living, to describe every possible way a stamp could have been produced.

Just because PCNZA says a puncture doesn't match the currently-known patterns DOES NOT mean that puncture is a fake. Only a fool or an omniscient genius would draw that conclusion, and we at PCNZA are neither.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Chris Ceremuga »

Kainnikanada,

The large OS perfins can range from clean cut, to slightly rough, to very rough.

Yes, the irregular appearance of the hole you mention is due to chads still left, but size & position is matching when one looks at edges where paper shows signs of being broken etc.

Also likely to have been some effect from the situation of 2nd strike hitting edges of 1st strike holes, and also 1st strike might have somewhat distorted the paper etc.
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Kainnikanada wrote:
Both types of the preceding perf 'OS's seem to have extremely surgical clean-cut holes with few of those chads.

I only question the quality of the hole perforations since the examples seen in Glen's postings seem to be clean-cut.
Rod, I am a mere big-noting tosser, according to the PCNZA Geniuses, so please bear that clear judgement in mind. Despite that verdict, I have bought and sold and handled probably more Large OS Kangaroo stamps than anyone on this continent. And still have books full of the H.F. McNess hoard, who of course might have forged them all pre WW2, despite no fakes being recorded until decades later. But I have certainly handled more of them than ANYONE in PCNZA has ever handled. That I can guarantee.

Trust me, despite being a totally clueless tosser, I can confirm the Large OS were often very cleanly punched and often roughly punched. Depended on the newness/sharpness of pins, and the position on sheets in stack being punched. Top copies sharper, lowest sheet roughest in each pass. Physics #101. (Disclaimer - this is a clueless dealer tosser's opinion only, and is NOT confirmed or supported or endorsed in any way by PCNZA!)

Member Josto for example posted a few here here on another thread, all showing the cool "Dirk Hartog Island" constant flaw we discovered here on stampboards.

Josto sourced them all cheaply in Europe. The perfins may well be all totally FORGED of course - no doubt about that, but none have PCNZA Photo Certs sadly, so we will never know their valued view. Seeing the retail value of a Large OS 4d Roo, and a normal one, are exactly the same, let's not let common sense, stand in the way of logic. :!: :!:

So forged or not, here is a tiny random snap shot of how very different, Large OS perfins can look. Some are far sharper than these of course, and many are far rougher. (Disclaimer - this is a clueless dealer tosser's opinion only, and is NOT confirmed or supported or endorsed in any way by PCNZA!)
josto wrote:example 6 (large OS):

Image

example 7 (large OS, yellow orange):

Image

example 8 (large OS, block of 4):

Image]

I'm not sure which ones are in your flaw Count! I`m glad that this flaw found it`s way into ACSC!

Greetings

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by iaincraven »

And on the original strip of 3 it came from there was perfect match to 3 consecutive positions, including perfect match of spacings between positions.
Chris - do you know if the strip of three was split into three singles or a single and a pair?
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Allanswood »

There is a lot of heat in this thread, some of it based on misunderstanding comments that have been made.

Anyway, one comment, the very opening post was :

Tounga wrote:
Both punctures have been measured against the analytical data base and both do not match any known large Os die types.

In fact the bottom left pattern is vastly different from the central strike

OK, they may not match any of the 12 the PCNZA has measured but with what evidence to you propose that statement in red?


Because here is my comparative image of the lower OS overlaid on the top.
Image
The yellow is the central OS punctures coloured in and removing the pin fluff. The lower off centre OS pins has then been erased and overlaid with the now yellow OS and I do not see any "vast difference" at all. In fact they are very close to each other, enough to have been the same pins to me.

Even at 200% on my screen there is hardly a difference in spacing at all. I did however have to rotate the off centre image about 1º to the left. This could be as simple as I mentioned before in the flex of the paper having been placed in the die again.

Now I know a forger worth his salt will take great care to match and enhance his work to fool as many as possible, but these perfs do look OK, (within reason, I haven't seen the actual stamp, but the front scan is showing characteristics I would expect to see, would like to see the back as well), do measure to each other, the spacing to the remnants of the next OS to the right are good and from what I can see, the physical evidence matches how the OS was punched.

Now I'm not dishing out on the PCNZA here either - they did not issue a cert for the item as I would assume (seems quite rightly) that they have been left in two minds about it being genuine. They did not issue a cert saying that in their opinion it was a fake either.

As has been mentioned there is no one alive who knows, no images have yet been found and not enough details known in the research about the early OS perfs to actually say "this is how they were done" to be able to include or exclude certain rarities. I would have thought that somewhere the machine itself may still exist, or have been modified for State punctures such as the VG of Victoria or the OS NSW.

I know someone who bought and restored an old single line perforating machine of similar size to make his cinderella's.

If I could one day get to see the old VG machine in the flesh and take some measurements (hopefully be able to make the machine do a dummy punch) I would have a far better idea of how the mechanism works. The current die on the last of the VG's is different from the norm in that the VG's are side on and the sheets seem to have been punctured column by column and not row by row.

Often it's just that the provenance of the item and the combined opinion of experts in the field that will be acceptable to a prospective buyer, especially when they are considering a pricier and rare item like this one.

I have thousands of these OS perfs (mainly KGV, plenty on piece and plenty as CTO) and you get to know the "look" of good ones when you see so many of them. I have fakes that are there as well from other sources - but at a glance they look wrong without even having to check the physical characteristics.

But all this 'wagging your willies' at each other and schoolyard insults just doesn't help either side. It certainly doesn't further the pursuit of a study into something that baffles so many and many certifiers just wont issue a cert for. Many that may have been able to contribute just go silent rather than face the ridicule from either side.

Hmmm, sorry this turned into an essay. :)
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Allanswood »

Another background tit bit of information.

I'm looking at a not to far in the distant past ACSC that has listings for mint and used Roo and KGV perf OS stamps.

In nearly every case the Perf OS are valued at less than half the regular mint or used!

What year is that I hear you thinking?
.
1960's? No.
.
1950's? No.
.
1940's? No.

.
.
.
.
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.
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1976!

(I thought I'd have to go back to the 50's for that.)

Only after that did this craze begin. No one wanted them and you could get them for a song.

By the 1988 ACSC the pendulum had swung the other way with the OS in many cases equal or double the value of the normal stamp. 10 years following the wave (and then the bubble burst) and SS album pages. :roll:
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Global Administrator »

Greg that is precisely what I stated earlier on. Twice. No plausible (or even crude AFAIK) Kangaroo perf "OS" forgeries of any kind were known before WW2, and indeed not for 2 or 3 decades later. Until Seven Seas Stamps added them to hingeless album pages, during Kevin Duffy's inspired leadership of that once great company.

PCNZA Committee Member David Coath took me to task on that, and started obfuscating re 1927 Canberra perfins - which of course are a different size entirely to Kangaroo OS perfins, and the Commemoratives were ALWAYS worth more in OS perfin, and hence an early target for faking. Durrrh.

I asked he or others to post a single shred of evidence to support his weird view that this was incorrect, and got called a clueless tosser (among other things) for my trouble, for clearly knowing FAR more about his chosen "Expert" field then he did.

That childish outburst aside, he or no-one else offered a shred of evidence to support his view, as I urged them to offer up here and my comments remains as an undisputed fact, as your catalogue study proves. :mrgreen:
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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

Maybe Chris Ceremuga can post a scan of the reverse of this stamp (as he will have access to it at Status), as a few people seem to be interested in looking at the back of it.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

I seems to me that a lot of toes are being trodden on from both sides of the expertising world here and no-one like their turf being trodden on when their opinions are questioned. Human nature.

On the one hand, Chris and other conventional expertisers alike who have been around a while in the stamp world will (in all likelihood) prefer to see stamps in person, because that was how it was always done because today’s level of technology did not exist or was only being gradually introduced and improved.

They will have accrued some ‘tells’ in particular circumstances that will lead them in one direction or another regarding genuine-ness or forgery. Such tells are based on experience, for sure, but they are probably only part of a complex puzzle and by nature quite opinion based. These may or may not be proof-positive, but obviously the expertising world has to have a measuring-stick by which they express their views.

On the other hand, we have a group of scientifically-based people at PCNZA who are also doing their best to help the perfin world by trying to shed light using a very exact science of measurements, angles, plating and original sheets, strips and single examples etc which would probably not have been possible and undertaken until the last 10-20 years or so probably.

This all sounds like white man's magic to many for sure (me included to a degree), since it is beyond the scope and experience of most people to get to grips with, but surely, in this day and age where science and technology have immensely enhanced all of our lives, PHILATELY can also move with the times and allow the possibility that scientific proofing will also have its part to play in the expertising process.

As was stated a few times during the posts, experts have got things wrong in the past and as new evidence comes to light, opinions change but we will have to embrace this change as time goes by otherwise we will be stuck in the 20th century perpetuating views that were outlined as gospel in old literature works which will have their flaws in them like anything else in life.

It does seem from his posts that Chris in this instance is not very open to potentially new scientific means of helping advance the dilemma that we face with regards to perfins and rejects completely what the PCNZA has done (which is naturally his right) but to completely close down scientific evidence of this nature will probably not help us all down the track, I don’t think. We all have to keep an open mind to new discoveries and methods and that includes all the experts too.

Here, we have two camps who have differing views on each other’s methodology, but both undoubtedly have their merits in the overall picture and it is up to us to decide which methodology we as collectors feel most comfortable with.

For mine, I have the utmost respect for both accrued knowledge and science/technology so I am stuck between a rock and a hard place and I just wish for all our sakes that we had a 100% solution that we could all sleep well with at night, but I fear that this will not eventuate too easily in this case.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by dukeprince »

Evaluating Stamps without having them in your hand is very possible to do without much error.

Those of us that source stamps from internet images do it year after year and if it was ending in tears we would stop.

The margin of error or faults undisclosed by the images is quite low.

But and its a big but, if its over $1K I would certainly like to handle it, common sense should make that call when big dollars are involved.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Rod Perry »

The Robson Lowe Encyclopaedia (1962) listed punctured Large "OS" double for the 1d and 2d.

From an historical perspective, in that volume punctured "OS" are generally priced at 50% normal. Curiously, Third wmk. issues are 150% of normal prices?

It's probable that the premium for Third wmk. punctures was an incentive for a forger, particularly one alert to the possibilities presented by the UK/European markets.

A considerable incentive to "create" punctures, however, was provided by Yvert. Decades before the 1980s Seven Seas Stamps inclusion of punctures in their illustrated album, Yvert had spaces for punctures in their equivalent illustrated album.

Frank Thornhill, a leading specialist trader in Australia of his time (notably 1930s/1970s), was always seeking the more difficult "OS" punctures for wants list clients. I learnt from Frank that Europeans were the driving force amongst those clients; presumably Yvert disciples.

Frank first approached me with his list of required punctures when I was a wholesaler in the late 1960s. He was prepared to pay attractive prices for his requirements, but rarely could I find anything for him.

The incentive to fake punctures was well in place prior to the post 1985 boom.

That infamous puncturing device, the subject of another thread on SB, in use until just a few years ago, was in fact not a modern apparatus.

It is believed to have been in use prior to the early 1950s.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by wilbaer »

Interesting point, Rod. I had no idea of the providence timeline for the infamous SB thread forging equipment, so to hear that it was estimated to have been in use prior to the early 1950's would make a strong case that there were quite probably forgeries of these Roos around then as well, not just from the 80's which has been outlined in this thread.

Maybe more of them came into being and to our awareness in the 80's because of the well-known forgers of the time, but maybe we should also expand our minds to the possibility that there were forgeries out there before we all first thought. Whether they would have been better or worse than the 80's ones, who knows.... A fairly 'eminent' forger, Jean De Sperati died in 1957, didn't he and he was pretty good at his trade! Not saying that these may have been his, obviously, but if the skillset was there to do what he did, who is to say that it was impossible to create top-notch forgeries of the OS patterns around the same time in the 40's or 50's? Maybe our 80's forgers were pretty poor in comparison to the earlier 'better' ones and it made it easier for us to pick them in the 80's....

Provenance is a salient point obviously, but never really a 100% guarantee, is it? Surely it cannot be conclusively ruled out that other collectors of that era, eminent or not, were also duped by forgers in the 40's or 50's just like some of us were in the 80's. Particularly if, as Rod says, there is a strong likelihood that the machinery to perform the forgeries also existed during that said era.

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Re: 1d Kangaroo forged(?) double perf on eBay. Member thoug

Post by Allanswood »

Rod Perry wrote:
That infamous puncturing device, the subject of another thread on SB, in use until just a few years ago, was in fact not a modern apparatus.

It is believed to have been in use prior to the early 1950s.

Rod
And it's a crying shame that once outed, the device was apparently destroyed. It could have been measured and used for comparative researched. After all it was a single die used repeatedly, and it would seem over a long period of time.
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