Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by hutch »

Wow, thanks Tony. You can have a closer look tomorrow when I bring it down to Melbourne. I hope, that under your scrutiny, I will prove to be correct :D

I would have had no idea how to classify the plating though!
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by hutch »

Here's another one from Jind. I have tentively identified it as 1882-85 1A on thick laid paper. J20.

Image

Close?
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by hutch »

Now this one just can't possibly be!! The color is just so wrong. Was this a later reprint for collectors? 1/2A should be lemon or brown-buff. Have I missed something?

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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by maptrekker »

..and the best..2Rupee stamp uprating postcard. Why !!!

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Is this not a 2R stamp surcharged to ½ anna?

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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by hutch »

Is this not a 1/4A card?
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by tonymacg »

hutch wrote:Here's another one from Jind. I have tentively identified it as 1882-85 1A on thick laid paper. J20.

Image

Close?
Looks right to me, Anne. The 1 Anna was printed on a thick bluish laid 'card' paper.
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by hutch »

Thank you Tony...must be starting to sink in all this info!!
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by tonymacg »

hutch wrote:Now this one just can't possibly be!! The color is just so wrong. Was this a later reprint for collectors? 1/2A should be lemon or brown-buff. Have I missed something?

Image
You're quite right: the ½ Anna is only known in brown or yellow. The blue ½ Anna was a purely revenue printing. It was made after Jind joined the Postal Convention, but it turns up regularly in collections of Jind.
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by opkedia52 »

maptrekker wrote:
..and the best..2Rupee stamp uprating postcard. Why !!!

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Is this not a 2R stamp surcharged to ½ anna?
The rate for postcard at that time was nine pies and 1/4 An Postcard+1/2 Anna (downrated stamp) makes 9 pies-the correct rate.

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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by hutch »

Oh Thank you Tony!! Am I feeling a bit smug for the moment!!

You'll probably pull me down a peg or two tomorrow off my high horse, but for now, I'm going to enjoy that great feeling that I got something right! :D
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by birder »

opkedia52 wrote:
maptrekker wrote:
..and the best..2Rupee stamp uprating postcard. Why !!!

Image
Is this not a 2R stamp surcharged to ½ anna?
The rate for postcard at that time was nine pies and 1/4 An Postcard+1/2 Anna (downrated stamp) makes 9 pies-the correct rate.

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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by birder »

A very interesting item -- Kashmir & Poonch. English Postmark-1884.


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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by birder »

Image


I believe that it is a "dangerous forgery". But I have never seen any actual stamp with this design/colour. Can any one throw more light on this?
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Post by tonymacg »

Yes, Birder, I'm afraid this is a forgery.

It is purporting to be the notorious SG 86, the provisional red watercolour seal cancellation of Jammu. This illustration is taken from the Kashmir Blue auction catalogue:

Image

It was normally struck in black as a cancellation

Image

and SG 86 is a subject of debate among collectors. Some claim it was created purely for collectors, and that it never was a proper stamp at all.

Whatever the case, it's never seen in such a clear strike (the auction catalogue copy is typical), and it couldn't possibly have that cancellation. It isn't a Jammu CDS, and SG 86 had long been superseded by the joint issues for Jammu & Kashmir by 1884.

It belongs in the same class of frauds as the Circulars with the three-ring cancellations

Image

and the Kashmir Old Rectangulars with late British postmarks:

Image

Quite imposssible!
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by birder »

The Maharajah of Bundi, in 1903.

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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by birder »

The Maharajas and their automobiles


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Post by birder »

From the Princely State of Junagadh


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..and there is a Barwani connection.
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by tonymacg »

birder wrote:The Maharajas and their automobiles


Image
Written by a son of the late Rana Devi Singh, no less. (And Birder, I haven't forgotten my promise to look out the letter from Rana Devi Singh :D )

And continuing a family tradition of fascination with motor cars ...

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HH Ranjitsingh in a Daimler Tourer circa 1913
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Post by jherek99 »

As a matter of curiosity are the Maldives issues (pre independence) regarded as being part of the Uglies Club or are they something separate all-together

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Post by tonymacg »

No, not ugly enough. We have to draw the line somewhere :lol:
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Post by jherek99 »

Glad to see you've standards :)

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Post by tonymacg »

Well, if it's any consolation, I also consign Aghanistan and Nepal to Outer Darkness ...
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by serenity »

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Is my Ugly a real lucky duckling?

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Post by tonymacg »

Oh yes, it's the real thing alright :D

It's a Jaipur SG 17 sheet. Although these days Gibbons wimps it, and says they were printed at the 'Jaipur State Press', the Jaipur State Press was in the Jaipur Jail. In the old days, these were known as the Jail Press printings, and they make quite an interesting specialist study, too.

They were bought up heavily by European dealers, so that - most uncommonly for low denomination Jaipur stamps - they're less common used than mint.

This is the companion green shade, SG 16

Image

and this is a sheet used on cover:

Image

I did a little thread on these stamps here: https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=8415&p=931961
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by serenity »

I have been trying to find out any information I can. I have not been able to find another stamp (exactly) like mine. How many were made? Are they considered a treasure and or rare?
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by tonymacg »

Unfortunately, your sheet isn't rare. Although we don't know how many were printed, there must have been quite a few. These sheets still turn up quite often.

You probably won't find an exact match for your sheet, because the stamps were printed under fairly primitive conditions. You find a lot of variation in quality between sheets, but your example is quite typical.

If you want to follow it up, there is a booklet, The Postage Stamps of Jaipur, by JRM Albrecht, published by Stanley Gibbons in 1924, which goes into considerable detail on these stamps.
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by jherek99 »

Can someone give me details about this Bahawalpur piece


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Post by tonymacg »

These stamps appeared in 1933, printed by De La Rue in London. The traditional story is that the Amir of Bahawalpur (a keen philatelist) had them prepared in anticipation of the Imperial Government giving him the go-ahead to establish a Bahawalpur State Post Office.

In the event, New Delhi didn't give permission at the time, and the stamps were put into storage.

However, it appears that there are at least three covers bearing the stamps, used in 1933, and with uniquely Bahawalpur cancellations. A few of the stamps may have been used on State Government mail, but, basically, the issue was never properly authorised.

AFAIK, no current catalogues list this stamp. The last (1980) edition of the old Bridger & Kay Commonwealth Five Reigns catalogue priced it at £30. The book, The Amirate of Bahwalpur - Postal History & Stamps (1932-1949) by Isani, published in 2006, priced it at £40. Copies turn up fairly regularly, so I'd be inclined to place the value at midway between these two: £35 or so.
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Post by serenity »

I noticed on the back of my Ugly there are ink lines like it was stacked on top of another one that was not dry.
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by Timbres »

Yes, transference. On e-bay such items are frequently touted as "errors" with a printing on the back! :lol: :lol: Even when it is obviously a mirror image. How that plate so smartly reverses itself so as to print a mirror image when it strikes the back side of the stamp has never really occurred to them! :lol: :lol:
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Post by serenity »

Are you saying that I'm correct in thinking it was sat on top of another stamp?
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Post by Timbres »

Yes, you are exactly correct.
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Post by serenity »

Thank you. I'm easily confused. :oops: :D :D :D
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Post by tonymacg »

Serenity, these stamps were printed in the Jaipur Jail. You can imagine how thrilled the inmates were to be set to work printing stamps, and what the levels of printing skills were like :D
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Post by birder »

Royal invite to the Idar Cup Polo Final

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Post by birder »

Two nice blocks I got recently.

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Post by serenity »

I can only imagine their excitement. Although I would have rather made stamps than worked the coal mines as they did hear in Kansas. Or especially the fields as they still do in Tennessee, Shot on spot if they run. Stamps would look like a walk in the park! :lol:
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Post by serenity »

Birder, those look beautiful! :D
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by birder »

tonymacg wrote:These stamps appeared in 1933, printed by De La Rue in London. The traditional story is that the Amir of Bahawalpur (a keen philatelist) had them prepared in anticipation of the Imperial Government giving him the go-ahead to establish a Bahawalpur State Post Office.

In the event, New Delhi didn't give permission at the time, and the stamps were put into storage.

However, it appears that there are at least three covers bearing the stamps, used in 1933, and with uniquely Bahawalpur cancellations. A few of the stamps may have been used on State Government mail, but, basically, the issue was never properly authorised.

AFAIK, no current catalogues list this stamp. The last (1980) edition of the old Bridger & Kay Commonwealth Five Reigns catalogue priced it at £30. The book, The Amirate of Bahwalpur - Postal History & Stamps (1932-1949) by Isani, published in 2006, priced it at £40. Copies turn up fairly regularly, so I'd be inclined to place the value at midway between these two: £35 or so.
There is an eBay seller offering it BIN USD 12.99

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BAHAWALPUR-BRITISH-INDIA-PAKISTAN-1A ... 53ee16fa45
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Post by tonymacg »

birder wrote:Royal invite to the Idar Cup Polo Final

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Never heard of the Idar Polo Cup! My education is sadly lacking :lol:
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Post by tonymacg »

birder wrote:
tonymacg wrote:These stamps appeared in 1933, printed by De La Rue in London. The traditional story is that the Amir of Bahawalpur (a keen philatelist) had them prepared in anticipation of the Imperial Government giving him the go-ahead to establish a Bahawalpur State Post Office.

In the event, New Delhi didn't give permission at the time, and the stamps were put into storage.

However, it appears that there are at least three covers bearing the stamps, used in 1933, and with uniquely Bahawalpur cancellations. A few of the stamps may have been used on State Government mail, but, basically, the issue was never properly authorised.

AFAIK, no current catalogues list this stamp. The last (1980) edition of the old Bridger & Kay Commonwealth Five Reigns catalogue priced it at £30. The book, The Amirate of Bahwalpur - Postal History & Stamps (1932-1949) by Isani, published in 2006, priced it at £40. Copies turn up fairly regularly, so I'd be inclined to place the value at midway between these two: £35 or so.
There is an eBay seller offering it BIN USD 12.99

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BAHAWALPUR-BRITISH-INDIA-PAKISTAN-1A ... 53ee16fa45
This is either very cheap, or a new supply of these stamps has come to light. Either is possible, but at $US12.99, you can't go too drastically wrong.
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by hutch »

After a bit of an absence, I would like to post up some of my new acquisitions!

Thanks Tony!

These are all Bhor. Any comments would be appreciated! These first two are cancelled.

Image

Image

Nice huh?
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Post by hutch »

The next six are also Bhor but have different printing variations. Don't think that adds anything to value but makes it very interesting in regards to working out inking etc. I tried to get the colors as close to the stamps as I could but even then, sometimes the paper has ended up bluer than it should have :(

1/2 Anna

Image

Image

Image

Image

1 Anna

Image

Image

Some of the differences are quite remarkable. Like missing lines and designs.

This will keep me happy for quite a while :D

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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by hutch »

In respect to the 1/2 Anna, should I have reversed the order I put them up on?

It looks (after seeing them on this thread) that the fourth one had more ink and the rest went progressively down?

Am I right or just imagining things?

By the way, how did your Barwani presentation go today Tony? Wish I could have been there!

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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by Namaste »

Hello everyone,

Am moving over to this thread (from fakes thread) since I'm definitely a beginner and (hopefully) have a few real uglies to share.

Best laid plans etc: went to the local shop with Faridkot and Dhar in mind but there were none in the album (except for some Faridkot reprints I had already). So what to do? Many, many Bundi cows sat staring at me but felt a bit unsure. Got the laptop out and had a go at a few Poonch, since they are quite lovely to look at.

1 pice

Image

1/2 anna

Image

2 anna

Image

Hopefully I've labelled them right.

I'll put up some of the other bits and bobs acquired later on.

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Post by hutch »

These look really lovely Namaste.

I'm sure that when Tony gets down from cloud 9 after his Barwani talk today, He will be able to give you far more information than I can. He is the expert after all!!!

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Post by tonymacg »

hutch wrote:In respect to the 1/2 Anna, should I have reversed the order I put them up on?

It looks (after seeing them on this thread) that the fourth one had more ink and the rest went progressively down?

Am I right or just imagining things?

By the way, how did your Barwani presentation go today Tony? Wish I could have been there!

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Anne, the thing to remember with Bhor is that they were all individually handstamped. You get considerable variation in inking and impressions, even within the same sheet:

Image

Image

After all, your wrist would get pretty sore after banging out a couple sheets of these.

The Barwani presentation tonight went very well. Two members tried to escape, but were recaptured, and only one tried to assassinate me. I'm not sure how many new collectors of Barwani I've recruited, though. I might have scared them off :(
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by tonymacg »

Namaste wrote:Hello everyone,

Am moving over to this thread (from fakes thread) since I'm definitely a beginner and (hopefully) have a few real uglies to share.

Best laid plans etc: went to the local shop with Faridkot and Dhar in mind but there were none in the album (except for some Faridkot reprints I had already). So what to do? Many, many Bundi cows sat staring at me but felt a bit unsure. Got the laptop out and had a go at a few Poonch, since they are quite lovely to look at.

1 pice

Image

1/2 anna

Image

2 anna

Image

Hopefully I've labelled them right.

I'll put up some of the other bits and bobs acquired later on.
Namaste, you have the values correctly identified, of course.

I really don't know what to make of that 1 Pice pair. The print demeanour looks right, but the paper looks strange. Is it thick or thin? Wove or laid?

The ½ Anna appears to be an aniline printing. Does the colour show clearly on the reverse? Or alternatively, could you post a scan of the back of the stamp, please? (Aniline ink was the first of the artificial dyes. It tends to show through quite clearly to the back of the stamp, when the watercolours don't usually do so. It also fluoresces under UV light.)

The 2 Anna is nice. I'd guess it's on the wove or wove bâtonné paper - is it? You can also see one of the pencil lines, down the right hand side, that the printers ruled as a guide to placing the stamps. Of course, it didn't always work ...

Image

The Bundi Sacred Cows are always a sore temptation. There are some fakes: the very good ones are rather rare, and the bad ones are common. With very little exposure to the Sacred Cows, you'll immediately pick the bad forgeries. The good forgeries may very well be rarer than the more common genuine stamps, so you'd end up ahead anyway. Do remember, though, that the Gibbons listing is grossly simplified :D

Dhar and Faridkot? Excellent choices, both of them. But just try and find them properly used on cover!
de Selby lives, and will return

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Namaste
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by Namaste »

I'm still getting to grips with paper types but I think the 1 pice is laid. The lines run vertical relative to the orientation of the scan given. The paper is very thin. I'll have to go read a bit and get back to you about the 2 anna and whether it's wove/bâtonné. Thanks, Tony, for posting all the black 2 anna. There were a few small blocks of those in the album with some similarly wonky printing.

As for the 1/2:

Image

Is that what you meant by the colour showing through (if you can see past the old hinge mark....)?

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tonymacg
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Re: Indian stamp UGLIES - - Keeping it simple for beginners

Post by tonymacg »

Namaste, you have one of those borderline cases, which are difficult to classify. The indisputable aniline printings show the design quite clearly on the back - and as luck would have it, I can't find a good example.

Your stamp looks like an aniline printing, from the front. If you can look at it under UV light, you could have the answer. If it glows, it's definitely an aniline ink printing. If it doesn't, then I think I'd classify it as a non-aniline ink.

Working through the papers used at Poonch is excellent training in paper types. I think you have the laid paper identified: of course, the laid lines can run in any direction. (It usually makes no obvious difference, although I've found that horizontal lines are much scarcer in the two values of Jhalawar.)

The bâtonné papers have watermark lines widely spaced, at right angles to the laid lines in the case of laid papers. They may be more difficult to pick up in the wove papers, particularly on the little 1 Pice stamps.

For anything to do with Poonch, I always recommend the Poonch Stamps Web site, http://poonchstamps.com/. The owner knows vastly more than I ever will about these stamps :D
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