Question regarding the effects of stamp affixing machines on stamps

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Question regarding the effects of stamp affixing machines on stamps

Post by Historama.com »

I've seen a number of articles and posts here that deal with the subject of stamp affixing machines and how they work - but a subtle issue I haven't found an answer to is this: what was the affect of such a machine on the stamp being affixed? For example, did such stamps tend to be "mashed" flat onto a cover or was the process fairly delicate as if affixed by a person?

The reason I ask is that in the area of Palestine Mandate stamps there is a series of Pictorals that were produced on various paper types, one of which is commonly referred to as "thick, vertically ribbed". This is an easy type to spot and distinguish. On covers it often looks "puffy", nevertheless in many instances I see this paper type with a flattened, mashed appearance and I'm wondering if this may be the result of the stamp being applied by an affixing machine -?

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Re: question regarding the effects of stamp affixing machines on stamps

Post by Rigs »

Quick u need a pic - choppers are coming ! :lol:

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Re: Question regarding the effects of stamp affixing machines on stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

..
Yes a member of 4.5 years KNOWS the following, so he is either thick, or lazy, or both, and I for one have no idea what a stamp "mashed flat on a cover" and "puffy" looks like'' but here we go again, just for him - :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

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Re: Question regarding the effects of stamp affixing machines on stamps

Post by Historama.com »

This is a harder issue to capture in images because on camera it's hard to illustrate the "puffiness" and the "flatness" of the stamps, but I'll try:

The first 3 pictures are of a vertical pair of 13m stamps which I would describe as being "puffy" - they feel as if there is an air pocket between them and the cover, the paper is thick
IMG_5089.JPG
IMG_5088.JPG
IMG_5087.JPG

This picture of a 20m stamp is admittedly not on the same type of paper (it's "woven" not "thick vertically ribbed"), but it has a flattened/mashed appearance + some residue just below it on the cover's surface. I see this - both the flatness and residue marks - quite often on Mandate covers, but don't know what they are
143864_3.jpg

Here are 2 stamps - the 2m on the left is "puffy" by my definition while the 13m to the right is "mashed". I do see that the horizontal perforations differ between them (an idiosyncracy on this series) but the paper is the same type ("thick vertically ribbed")
IMG_5090.JPG

Rounding this out is another image with a 15m single at the left looking "flattened" to me and a vertical pair on the right looking "puffy" - all on the same "thick vertically ribbed" paper albeit the shades of blue differ
IMG_5091.JPG

Does anyone else see these characteristics? Any idea what they are and what the residue can be?
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Re: Question regarding the effects of stamp affixing machines on stamps

Post by ddaann »

I wonder if the difference between puffy and flat has more to do with how well the gum was moistened.

Puffy: not well moistened or less soluble glue ??
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Re: Question regarding the effects of stamp affixing machines on stamps

Post by Historama.com »

I also think there is a connection - but that's why I was curious if something like a stamp affixer can better apply a stamp to a cover than a regular sponge or lick... does an affixer apply any force to the adhesion itself?
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Re: Question regarding the effects of stamp affixing machines on stamps

Post by phrag99 »

I've never seen reference to a stamp affixing machine, before. Perhaps I've led a very sheltered life!

What does one look like?

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Re: Question regarding the effects of stamp affixing machines on stamps

Post by The Pom »

phrag99 wrote:
01 Jun 2021 03:51
I've never seen reference to a stamp affixing machine, before. Perhaps I've led a very sheltered life!

What does one look like?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affixing_machine
An Affixing Machine is a machine that affixes postage stamps to an envelope, postcard or wrapper.[1] Affixing machines first appeared in the 1850s[2] but were not widely used until the early 20th century.[3] Stamp affixing machines were brought about by the need to mechanically affix stamps for bulk processing of mail.[4] A secondary reason for the machines was to make the theft of stamps more difficult[5] for employees with access to a large inventory of coils. The first widespread machine was created in 1884 by Engle Frankmussler,[6] a Norwegian, who created the ‘Postage Stamp Affixing Machine’ as it was then called, was a crank-operated hardy machine that was effective but vulnerable to tampering.


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Re: Question regarding the effects of stamp affixing machines on stamps

Post by phrag99 »

Ah - thanks - bit before my time, then.

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What kind of stamp could this Palestic Mandate stamp be?

Post by Historama.com »

I'm on a year-long "warpath" to try and decypher coil stamps, specifically from the Palestine Mandate. Here I have a type of stamp which looks similar to horizontally fed coils in the UK and possibly Australia, but I don't know if that's what it really is.

The existing Mandate scholarship being scant on this subject - and also in my opinion erronious - I'm asking a broader audience for some pointers...

1) This is the cover: 1x single 8 mils with a cropped gutter + a vertical pair of 10 mils with the same type cropped gutter:
143714_1.jpg

When a standard gutter is attached to a stamp this is how it would normally look:
143761_1.jpg

2) This is what a full stamp sheet with this type of gutter looks like (here a 3 mils stamp, plate #2):
3m_plate2_sheet_1.jpg

3) normally - for Mandate stamps - we'd see these cropped gutters as the selvege for booklet panes (on either the left or right side of a pane), but a) the stamps don't have a single guillotined perimeter as would be expected from a booklet pane, b) the 8m wasn't issued in booklets, and c) none of the stamps on my cover have staple holes as would be expected from a booklet.

Romano 39 lot 43 - booklet panes a.jpg



Does anyone have a suggestion what the stamps on my cover might be?
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Re: What kind of stamp could this be?

Post by exlibriseric »

You don't think it's possible someone just "cropped" the gutters themselves (possibly with scissors)?

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Re: What kind of stamp could this be?

Post by Historama.com »

No for two reasons: I've seen stamps like these on other covers (eg. this isn't a one-off example), and for practicality there's no reason to cut the gutter in half rather than detach it in total like in my 2nd cover above (see the full stamp sheet - time consuming to scissor-cut the stamps out). What that 2nd cover shows is what we normally see if a stamp already has a gutter attached.
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Re: What kind of stamp could this Palestic Mandate stamp be?

Post by Global Administrator »

Historama.com wrote:
23 Jun 2021 03:18

Does anyone have a suggestion what the stamps on my cover might be?

Quite normal ones?

You have gone this loopy crusade via many similar new threads (I'll merge them all into one if I summon up the energy) and yet you do not bother to show a closeup of WHY these perfectly normal looking stamps are coil freaks of some imaginary kind in your fertile mind. Not one soul on these boards has concurred with you as I recall, so the message is pretty clear. :!: :!:

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Re: What kind of stamp could this Palestic Mandate stamp be?

Post by Historama.com »

I didn’t say these were coils: I asked what they might be because they are not commonly seen with cropped gutters…

Most of my questions here have been open questions looking for insights and inputs. The purpose is to help me establish what is/isn’t a coil stamp, and how they may be physically affected by vending machines. Here, these may be ordinary sheet stamps - but why with cropped gutters?
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Re: What kind of stamp could this Palestic Mandate stamp be?

Post by makielb »

In an historic sense, the only way to be completely sure that you had a coil was to collect them in strips of 11 or more, thus a greater number of stamps than occurs in a full sheet. There might also be some subtle differences in the perforations. Otherwise they are identical to the sheet stamps.

If memory serves me well, stamps on cover are quite difficult (or impossible) to identify as coils.

The Bale Catalogue covers the topic quite well.
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Re: What kind of stamp could this Palestic Mandate stamp be?

Post by kuikka »

It would help to see high resolution scan of those stamps on cover that you want to get others opinion. Now I feel I don't see enough details.

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Re: What kind of stamp could this Palestic Mandate stamp be?

Post by thecloudwatcher »

Historama.com wrote:
23 Jun 2021 03:18

1) This is the cover: 1x single 8 mils with a cropped gutter + a vertical pair of 10 mils with the same type cropped gutter:
Image

Does anyone have a suggestion what the stamps on my cover might be?
1.) The large sheets were guillotined through the gutter in order to provide more convenient sized panes for use in post offices (smaller post offices especially, where space at the counter might have been at a premium);

2.) The stamps had a normal gutter which was subsequently cropped by a collector in order to "tidy up" the appearance. Given the positioning of the pair, I think it quite plausible that the gutter would have extended (or maybe been wrapped around) the edge of the envelope.

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Re: What kind of stamp could this Palestic Mandate stamp be?

Post by Historama.com »

Here are some close-ups of this cover plus a few others that have similar type stamps:
Picture1.jpg
IMG_5324.JPG
Picture2.jpg
Picture3.jpg
Picture4.jpg
Picture5.jpg
Picture6.jpg
Picture8.jpg
Picture9.jpg
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Re: What kind of stamp could this be?

Post by gavin-h »

Historama.com wrote:
23 Jun 2021 03:45
No for two reasons: I've seen stamps like these on other covers (eg. this isn't a one-off example), and for practicality there's no reason to cut the gutter in half rather than detach it in total like in my 2nd cover above (see the full stamp sheet - time consuming to scissor-cut the stamps out). What that 2nd cover shows is what we normally see if a stamp already has a gutter attached.
Have you considered the possibility that a regional post office could have guillotined full sheets into the smaller panes for further distribution to sub-offices that needed less stamps?

It would make perfect sense and make the panes easier to handle and store.

Why guillotine rather than simply tear? Ease and speed of separating a stack of sheets in one operation rather than manually separating each individual sheet.

Always look for a simple, practical, logical answer rather than a complex contrived one. :idea:

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Re: Question regarding the effects of stamp affixing machines on stamps

Post by Historama.com »

I'm looking for a realistic answer and not something half-baked on-the-fly: Mandate stamps are not known being scissored or guillotined locally; they were produced in the UK and brought in, and all the research on the Mandate era has not revealed any local alterations made to these stamps.

As I wrote above there's no practical reason to have cut them midway on the gutter - they could have been sliced along the perforation with no extra effort. There's a reason why the gutters are cropped and this is what I'm trying to find out. In the examples I posted above - Jerusalem, Ramallah, Mount Carmel (Haifa) and even Tiberias - these are not small post offices, so there wouldn't be a physical reason to produce smaller sub-sheets of the originals.
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Re: Question regarding the effects of stamp affixing machines on stamps

Post by gavin-h »

Historama.com wrote:
24 Jun 2021 03:08
I'm looking for a realistic answer and not something half-baked on-the-fly:
One more comment like that and you'll be asking your half-baked questions on another forum. :idea:

Consider that as a final warning.

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