British Diamond shaped PO "Census" Markings - covers wanted

22028 · Post by **22028** » 08 Nov 2013 05:27

I am looking for covers with these British Census markings. Also hints where such covers are offered are appreciated.

A sample cover showing one of the three census markings is here..

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 08 Nov 2013 06:06

I doubt if the census would have included mail from abroad, just for internal GB usage and the marking on the cover was applied after the original item was forwarded in GB.

It would be unusual to see it on overseas covers, just internal GB or GB covers sent abroad,

David B.

22028 · Post by **22028** » 08 Nov 2013 06:46

David,

i do not believe that the census marks were only applied to local covers since they were used to count ALL mail processed by a certain post Office.
But i agree, they are scarcer on incoming foreign mail.

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 08 Nov 2013 07:39

Rainer,

most of the covers I have seen are GB early QE defins. on cover to Australia, c1953-55 but can't recall seeing any from Australia to GB.

It should be easy to prove if they were used on inwards mail as soon as some covers are shown that are addressed to GB without internal redirections,

Good luck but I can't see much relevance for Iraqi Postal History only GB,

David B.

22028 · Post by **22028** » 08 Nov 2013 08:41

David,

i also have a cover from Kuwait to GB with a census mark, without being forwarded... and know of another Iraq cover with such mark, also not forwarded.
Iraq and Kuwait is coincidence since I search for Iraq and Kuwait so i find primarily covers from there...
The Census markings is only a small side collection....

new12collector · Post by **new12collector** » 08 Nov 2013 09:41

Hi,

Would you like these?

Covers from Gibraltar and Bahrain

Cover from Iceland

22028 · Post by **22028** » 08 Nov 2013 09:49

@new12collector,

These are nice... please drop me a Email or PN with your contact Details...

hughvic2 · Post by **hughvic2** » 09 Nov 2013 16:19

I have some information on these census cancels at:
http://www.vicstamps.com/displays/postal_census/postal_census.html

There are about 700 examples and soon another 50 will be added.

Little seems to have been written about these cancels and I am hoping to provide enough examples so that a study can be undertaken.

hughvic2 · Post by **hughvic2** » 09 Nov 2013 18:25

I should have mentioned that I own about 170 of these covers.

The rest of the images have been found on web sites, ebay, delcampe and sent to me by other collectors. A number of members in local clubs have also sent images or given me photocopies.

If you have any covers with the cancel I would appreciate scans of them. To be useful a cancel with the date and place is necessary. The only covers without dates that I accumulate are second war military covers.

jjarmstrong47 · Post by **jjarmstrong47** » 09 Nov 2013 22:23

I doubt if the census would have included mail from abroad

David, I would have thought that a census would have counted everything that went through the post office during the census perion so a small percentage of that would very likely be from overseas.

That is how I interpret the description above. A very interesting sideline to collect.

asmodeus · Post by **asmodeus** » 24 Nov 2013 09:35

The only one in my collection

22028 · Post by **22028** » 24 May 2014 15:35

To take this discussion out of the sleep...

Overland Mail Baghdad-Haifa cover with mutiple Census Marking...

peterh · Post by **peterh** » 28 Sep 2014 08:04

Here's a nice early one from Jul 15 1930 - Blackpool to Swansea.

peterh · Post by **peterh** » 28 Sep 2014 08:12

And another from 10 October 1936, Llanelli to Cardiff.

22028 · Post by **22028** » 25 Apr 2015 23:20

Not much discussion lately on this topic...

The shown cover I found recently bears an apparently unrecorded census marking. Any information on that marking is highly appreciated.

mozzerb · Post by **mozzerb** » 27 Apr 2015 00:52

22028 wrote:The shown cover I found recently bears an apparently unrecorded census marking. Any information on that marking is highly appreciated.

That unevenly-spaced-bars canceller die was introduced in Jersey shortly after postal independence in 1969. Looks like they couldn't be bothered to remove it during this particular census (1971? hard to read the date) and so used it in conjunction with the diamond die!

mozzerb · Post by **mozzerb** » 09 Apr 2016 08:08

Found this among some random covers being sorted out for disposal: a census mark where the underlying plate, to which the cancelling bars or slogan die would normally be fitted, has picked up ink and "printed". Something you occasionally see with census marks (and really only census marks, as normally something would be fitted to it).

mozzerb · Post by **mozzerb** » 10 Apr 2016 05:31

And one more also found among the random covers. From 1978, with triangle die used instead of the normal census die. These triangular dies with office number were used in place of the dater die on printed matter mailings (which could be held back to deal with letter mail and so did not get a dated mark) before the switch to two-tier mail in 1968, and so had been obsolete for 10 years.

john6625 · Post by **john6625** » 14 Nov 2016 01:17

I have a few of these but this is my most recent aquisition. The mark is also on the rear.

Lundy · Post by **Lundy** » 29 Nov 2016 08:30

I had a look around and found about 15 of these from various places about half being GB, is anybody still looking for these?

Lundy

john6625 · Post by **john6625** » 30 Nov 2016 01:02

Lundy wrote:I had a look around and found about 15 of these from various places about half being GB, is anybody still looking for these?

Lundy

22028 was online today so I will wait for this member to respond first as it is his thread. You may want to PM him/her. If no contact is made within a few days I may be interested.

Cheers

Lundy · Post by **Lundy** » 30 Nov 2016 06:30

Cheers John,

No problem, I will scan them up when i get a chance. I also have a couple of other places to check

Lundy

Lundy · Post by **Lundy** » 30 Nov 2016 06:54

Answered my own question, I wondered if these could be found on fdc's and just found a Trinidad and Tobago one....

Lundy

BigSaint · Post by **BigSaint** » 25 Feb 2018 07:33

David Benson wrote:Rainer,

most of the covers I have seen are GB early QE defins. on cover to Australia, c1953-55 but can't recall seeing any from Australia to GB.

It should be easy to prove if they were used on inwards mail as soon as some covers are shown that are addressed to GB without internal redirections,

Good luck but I can't see much relevance for Iraqi Postal History only GB,

David B.

David

One from Australia to GB:

Stampboarders Honza & Norvic advised these diamond marks were applied in the UK to show that the item has been included in the annual census of items passing through the post. This was always in October.

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=64259

Brad

BigSaint · Post by **BigSaint** » 25 Feb 2018 07:53

And another:

BigSaint · Post by **BigSaint** » 25 Feb 2018 07:55

All Photobucket “Ransom” images above have been replaced, and saved forever.

Brad

Ubobo.R.O. · Post by **Ubobo.R.O.** » 25 Feb 2018 10:16

Thankyou Secretariat.

BigSaint · Post by **BigSaint** » 25 Feb 2018 10:31

Have British ones too:

Brad

Ubobo.R.O. · Post by **Ubobo.R.O.** » 25 Feb 2018 10:38

Does anyone know what year census markings started and finished?
I am sure 1930 to 1971 is not correct.

bazza4338 · Post by **bazza4338** » 25 Feb 2018 10:50

Welcome to Rainer's
Sideline Collections
British Postal Census Markings
http://www.fuchs-online.com/A-Z/British_Postal_Census_Markings.htm

Have you ever seen a "diamond" cancel like this on a cover used in Great Britain?

The "diamond" mark was used in Universal cancelling machines as a control mark when an annual postal census was taken usually in October or November. This procedure started as early as 1923 and ceased in 1985. The single impression dies were fitted with a counting device and the marking was to indicate that the item had been counted.

The count was normally made of all posted traffic (posted at, received at, forwarded and any counter business), including foreign mail, for one week at a particular office providing a record of the number of items passing through the machine per hour or per day and giving a representative of average weekly postings for the Post Office.

The "diamond" also exists with a date-slug in from December 1996 at Croydon in a reserve machine for ordinary mail, not for the census. Sometimes it can be seen on FDCs that have actually gone through the mail.

The cancels were impressed on the back or the front of the letter. Sometimes covers received more than one "diamond" cancel.

The cancel has been found in red and at some offices the "diamond" was employed with either the wavy lines or the slogan in use at the time. The latest slogan that was found has been used in 1951 (but may have been used to at least 1966) while wavy lines were used to at least 1974. Most "diamond" cancels have equal length sides and approximate 90° corners. Some are narrow with smaller angles at the top and bottom.

The chosen week was not necessarily the same for each sorting office or for each shift in a particular office. The census was stopped because modern sorting machines have counters built in to count every single item.

bazza4338 · Post by **bazza4338** » 25 Feb 2018 11:01

My meager contribution...

1935 from Australia

and

1963 from Australia

norvic · Post by **norvic** » 24 Jun 2019 00:12

bazza4338 wrote:Welcome to Rainer's
Sideline Collections
British Postal Census Markings
http://www.fuchs-online.com/A-Z/British_Postal_Census_Markings.htm

This link isn't working.

norvic · Post by **norvic** » 24 Jun 2019 00:20

In all the threads which have discussed this subject, I have seen start and end YEARS but nothing which specifically states for certain what the PERIOD of the census was.

I always thought it was October, although there are examples here from July and November. Some have said 'which week', but again I thought it was for the whole month of October. Maybe somebody can confirm, if not I shall have to ask elsewhere.

The reason for the question is this cover that I picked up yesterday with a 13 November date.

BigSaint · Post by **BigSaint** » 24 Jun 2019 01:00

Ian

Please try to remember that IMGUR images are not permitted in the buying or selling forums. It is against their terms of service.

Brad for the Moderators.

norvic · Post by **norvic** » 24 Jun 2019 03:31

This isn't an offer for sale. It's the best result on a google search of the boards and I didn't notice it is in the wanted thread. I'm not offering; if you can find a better thread for my comments/questions, please move them. I'm not sure that most of the covers pictured in this thread are offered to the OP.

22028 · Post by **22028** » 24 Jun 2019 03:53

Try that link..., it seems when some members here reorganised images that also screwed some links...
http://fuchs-online.com/A-Z/British_Postal_Census_Markings.htm

MJ's pet · Post by **MJ's pet** » 24 Jun 2019 13:12

I'll keep a look out for these diamonds on GB covers. Sure I have seen them before but not given them another thought.

BigSaint · Post by **BigSaint** » 24 Jun 2019 13:49

Ian

This is an old thread & the OP is still an active member & still interested in the "Diamond" markings.

Perhaps our OP could start a thread in:

"Share with others here your NICE looking stamp and cover images etc." Forum & show us what he has collected, then you & others could also contribute items from collections & not fall foul of this Forum's restrictions on IMGUR images.

Thank you for the suggestion.

Brad

danyeung · Post by **danyeung** » 19 Jan 2020 18:03

Just noticed this thread while browsing the other.

This one was sent in June (or December) 1936, not in October, from Australia.

john6625 · Post by **john6625** » 21 Jan 2020 02:48

danyeung wrote:Just noticed this thread while browsing the other.

This one was sent in June (or December) 1936, not in October, from Australia.

Are you sure it is not SE (September) which means it may have actually arrived in October?

ViccyVFU · Post by **ViccyVFU** » 21 Jan 2020 08:27

It looks like 28 SE 38 to me ...

<Deleted image, as was in Imgur>

.... but its reasonably clear, if you rotate the postmark.

Making an October arrival in the UK "highly likely".

Kainnikanada · Post by **Kainnikanada** » 21 Jan 2020 09:35

ViccyVFU wrote:It looks like 28 SE 38 to me ...

I have, in my collection, 12 pieces/covers with the 'N' cut-down all dated 'AU - SE 36'. One usage in 1937 and another in 1948. I'd go with 'SE 36' unless the '8' was inverted.

danyeung · Post by **danyeung** » 21 Jan 2020 22:26

Hi ViccyVFU & Kainnikanada,

I looked at the cover again - it probably is "2x SE 36" so likely October arrival.

MJ's pet · Post by **MJ's pet** » 22 Jan 2020 11:12

Hi 22028, what are these worth each retail on a standard letter rate internal GB cover from the 1940s or 1950s?

22028 · Post by **22028** » 22 Jan 2020 19:38

MJ's pet wrote:Hi 22028, what are these worth each retail on a standard letter rate internal GB cover from the 1940s or 1950s?

What do you call retail value of such letters on standard internal GB covers? There are no retail lists and dealer usually do not stock them. Mostly they are find in boxes of covers at fairs, on ebay etc. undescribed and often overpriced.
I would not pay more than $1 for a cover, unless the rarer types of Census markings are on.