The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by norvic »

YuriyV wrote:
norvic wrote:I'm sure you are right to be suspicious of them - however that is not the same as saying that they are all wrong.
They are all wrong...
The previous writer was suspicious of items address to Latvia - I said that not everything sent to Latvia is wrong. I hope that you are not suggesting that there was no genuine mail from Ukraine to Latvia :?: :?: (I accept that the Rovno-22 items probably are.)
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were sca

Post by YuriyV »

maptrekker wrote:I checked the rate and it was indeed 15 krb. non-commercial.
Not true.
Tariff-3 has 4 ranges:
- Internal(Ukraine);
- the former Soviet republics (CIS);
- USA;
- other.

Latvia did not join to CIS. Therefore it should be included into "other". It was exactly 70krb.

maptrekker wrote:Rudenko seems to have ignored current postal rates.
Any conformance to postal regulations are not applicable to Rudenko at all.
norvic wrote:The previous writer was suspicious of items address to Latvia - I said that not everything sent to Latvia is wrong. I hope that you are not suggesting that there was no genuine mail from Ukraine to Latvia :?: :?: (I accept that the Rovno-22 items probably are.)
Exactly. I mean those two philatelic pieces.
As proof of good postal circulation with Baltic states, I'd like to show a beautiful cover with provisional stamps Kiev-3 issue from Kiev to Klaipeda (neighboring Lithuania).
Image
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by vasia »

Yuriy,

in my mind the question still remains: should those Rudenko covers that are franked according to the correct postage rate, that bear regular (i.e not counterfeit) meters/provisionals and that are properly backstamped (for example, the Gosha cds) be considered philatelic creations (i.e created by philatelists, but gone through the post) or pure fabrications that never entered the postal system?

I would appreciate your opinion on this.

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by YuriyV »

I'll ask more experienced people about this and notify you as soon as possible.
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were sca

Post by vasia »

Last week Yuriy posted the picture of a provisional hand-revaluation from Bugulma in 1992 (revaluation of a 1k Soviet stamp to 1R).

Below is an example from my collection of this hand-revaluation of Bugulma on a cover used during October 1992 to Saint Peterburg:

Image

Image

The curious thing about both Bugulma covers is the franking, i.e 1R. From my rate tables it would appear that between 10/6/1992 and 10/12/1992 the inland letter rate (up to 20gr) was 80k. Is this overfranking or is it payment of the rate + payment for postal stationery?

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by YuriyV »

Nice cover!
Is this overfranking or is it payment of the rate + payment for postal stationery?
I'm not experienced in the Russia that period. But would say, it looks like payment for the stationery. As I know, it was wide practice at that time (include Ukraine).
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by norvic »

It was established earlier that the purchase price of pre-stamped stationery of the USSR period was face value + 1kopeck. Would they really have used a manually surcharged SU postage stamp to show the new price of the envelope? Where is the postage?
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by vasia »

norvic, you mention in your previous post:
It was established earlier that the purchase price of pre-stamped stationery of the USSR period was face value + 1kopeck.
Can you please point out the reference to this, so that I can follow the discussion?

Based on discussions of Ukrainian experts that I have read (and to which Yuriy is alluding to) I merely suggested that the 1R provisional surcharge might be paying for the following:

80k (inland letter rate) + 20k (PSE purchased at post office)

Of course, this is merely a suggestion of mine - I do not have facts to back it up.

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by norvic »

vasia wrote:norvic, you mention in your previous post:
It was established earlier that the purchase price of pre-stamped stationery of the USSR period was face value + 1kopeck.
Can you please point out the reference to this, so that I can follow the discussion?

Based on discussions of Ukrainian experts that I have read (and to which Yuriy is alluding to) I merely suggested that the 1R provisional surcharge might be paying for the following:

80k (inland letter rate) + 20k (PSE purchased at post office)

Of course, this is merely a suggestion of mine - I do not have facts to back it up.
That 80+20 is quite possible. 20k would be a reasonable price to charge for a 80k envelope. But there was clearly profit being made as the envelope's original cost was only 1k.

The reference was on page 1 of this thread:
maptrekker wrote: I just looked at the back of the stamped envelope where it is printed with an issue date of 3 Jan 1980 and a cost of 7k. At that time stamped envelopes were priced 1k over the face value, so the stamp is denominated 6k not 10k.
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by vasia »

The back of my envelope with the Bugulma provisional bears the following information:

Issue date: 20.01.92
Price: 10k

Based on this, at least 10k should have been charged for the purchase of the PSE and at least 90k of the cover's total paid charge (through the use of the provisional) are accounted for: 80k (rate) + 10k. Whether the remaining 10k formed part of the PSE's purchase price remains a matter of speculation until appropriate references can be found.

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by norvic »

vasia wrote:The back of my envelope with the Bugulma provisional bears the following information:

Issue date: 20.01.92
Price: 10k

Based on this, at least 10k should have been charged for the purchase of the PSE and at least 90k of the cover's total paid charge (through the use of the provisional) are accounted for: 80k (rate) + 10k. Whether the remaining 10k formed part of the PSE's purchase price remains a matter of speculation until appropriate references can be found.
Agreed, but I think we can speculate logically.

The first reference in the thread is to a 6k PSE sold for 1k extra, so being priced at 7k. Yours is 7k, but sold at 7+3 = 10k. So if inflation had pushed the postage to 80k it is not at all unreasonable that 20k should be charged for the envelope. So we progress from

6k + 1k to
7k + 3k to
80k + 20k.

But it would be good to know the truth :)
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by maptrekker »

I have a 30k envelope from 1992 (02.06.92) post-USSR envelope that is marked as selling for 70k. That would make the envelope itself costing 40k.

Tatarstan declared itself fully independent in 1990. It (and Chechnya) refused to sign the Federation Treaty in 1992. So I think it possible that they may have set there own postal rates independently of Russia.

If Bugulma were selling these envelopes over-the-counter in 1992, I think it would be more likely that they would have revalued the envelopes themselves rather than placing revalued stamps onto them.

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were sca

Post by vasia »

Here is puzzling "provisional" in my collection: a registered letter from Livny, Orlov oblast, 11/12/1992 to Mukachevo, Zakarpattia oblast (in west Ukraine), backstamped on 17/12/1992.

Image

Image

The old Soviet definitive of 50k is "revalued" to 1R75k by the addition of a piece of stamp selvage over the old value and a handwritten inscription of the new value. The puzzling thing is that the registered letter rate (up to 20gr) for "near abroad" should be 2R (new rate effective the previous day, 10/12/1992). Even if we add the 13k PSE indicium we come short by 12k.

Alternatively, the old rate of 1R50k might have been used (80k + 70k registration), in which case we have to explain the excess 38k charge levied: 25k (from the stamp revaluation) + 13k (PSE indicium). I wonder what the second-weight charge might have been....

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by norvic »

When I get back to them I will have to look carefully at mine for manuscript surcharges.
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by YuriyV »

vasia wrote:Here is puzzling "provisional" in my collection...
Oh, boy! I have not seen anything like this!
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by YuriyV »

I'll ask more experienced people about this and notify you as soon as possible.
This is the answer from the expert about those arrival postmarks on Rudenko's covers:

"In early 90th one philatelist from USA (I'd like to avoid mention of his name here. this information is available through personal message only - my comment) went to Kiev. Rudenko prepared a huge box of covers (about 20kg) for sell to him. Rudenko enlisted the efforts of his family to fill the box. Therefore there are three kinds of possible handwriting (Rudenko himself, wife and daughter). Part of these covers were sent through real post (obviously within the Ukraine). Part of them were stamped by different postmarks of the same post office (obviously it's 'chocolate bar' - my comment). Other part were sent as parcel to philatelist friends into Baltic states (or/and Rudenko visited them in person) for stamping an arrival postmarks to the covers.
This box was absolutely real. I saw it at first hand. Personally."

This is the story. I've nothing to add.
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by vasia »

Thank you, Yuriy!

From the very beginning of purchasing post-USSR covers I have tried to be very selective and cautious, never spending large sums of money for individual covers (actually I do not think that any such cover in my collection has been purchased for more than a few $).

I have been fortunate to interact in the mid-1990's with a couple of honest dealers in the US and Canada who offered such material on approval, always indicating their suspicions about philatelic or fake covers.

I hope we'll continue to communicate on this topic through the hospitable venue of the Postage Stamp Chat Board. I will try to post additional material in the days and months to come.

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by YuriyV »

vasia wrote:...never spending large sums of money for individual covers (actually I do not think that any such cover in my collection has been purchased for more than a few $).
After last edition of Lobko's catalog (2007) prices for Ukrainian provisionals raised. And it's virtually impossible to buy attractive cover for couple bucks. I'd prefer to spend $50-100 for one gorgeous provisional cover rather than 20-40 ordinary items. Because ordinary ones can be found relatively easily later.
vasia wrote:I will try to post additional material in the days and months to come.
It's good to see at your covers. Every collector of provisional stamps, can find something unique.
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were sca

Post by maptrekker »

On the topic of handwritten revaluations.

Turkmenistan -- Ashgabat (Ashkhabad) to Moscow 1993

Soviet stamped envelope revalued to 60 Tennesi. Two old Soviet postmarks of Ashkhabad, Turkmenistan SSR dated 22 and 24 Nov 1993.
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Image

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by vasia »

Yuriy,

my comment regarding the price of covers that I purchased concerned the situation 15 years ago, when the waters were still very murky concerning the genuineness of overprints/provisionals. Today I would be willing to spend more for interesting covers, given that a number of individuals, including yourself, have made valuable contributions in sheding light on this field (from this and other boards, such as FilForum).

One small request - if you have available in electronic format the postage rates applicable in the Ukraine between 1992 and 1996 (for the basic categories of mail at least), can you please post them here or send them to me via e-mail? Your help on this would be appreciated.

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by norvic »

vasia wrote:Yuriy,One small request - if you have available in electronic format the postage rates applicable in the Ukraine between 1992 and 1996 (for the basic categories of mail at least), can you please post them here or send them to me via e-mail? Your help on this would be appreciated.
Yuriy, I endorse Vasia's words. And I would be happy to make those postage rates available from the Former Soviet Union part of our website.

Vasia - where is FllForum, please?
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by YuriyV »

I have no the rates in electronic format. I use last edition (2007) of the "Provisional Stamps catalog 1992-1999" by Lobko. There are a lot of supporting information, include postage rates and currency exchange rates of those period.
On my opinion, this is a "must have" book for every Ukrainian provisional collector. By the way, you can order this book on my eBay store or just email me here.
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by vasia »

norvic,

below is the link for FilForum (in Russian):

http://rusforum.mystampworld.com/

Yuriy, thank you for the information about the Lobko book. I will soon get in touch with you.

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by norvic »

vasia wrote:norvic,

below is the link for FilForum (in Russian):

http://rusforum.mystampworld.com/
:lol: That will be why my google search failed to find it :?

Guess I won't be participating there anytime in the near future.

Actually, considering that forums are quite often colloquial, google web translate does a darned good job at turning the whole thing into English!

I'll probably read, even if I can't write. Maybe in about a year (maybe) when I start again on my Former Soviet Republics I will put some pictures and links there.
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by vasia »

norvic, unfortunately for my philatelic interests I am in the same situation as you are relative to the Russian language. :( :oops:

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by norvic »

vasia wrote:norvic, unfortunately for my philatelic interests I am in the same situation as you are relative to the Russian language. :( :oops:
Back in '92 I studied basic Russian at evening school for several months. Although I knew Cyrillic alphabet (we all did that at school decades ago!) it helped me to identify the written script. When I look at the covers I have I combine what I can read from the postmark with what I can work out from the sender's address. That tells me where the letter was posted. If I was using only the postmark I would be lost 50% of the time on genuine covers :D

And of course I can remember some of my 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and some phrases, but not many - 8 years is a long time not using them!
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by YuriyV »

Fortunately, guys, you can use my knowledge in Russian as your backup. :-) Even more, I'm founder of the PhilForum and is active admin of this resource. There are registered most experienced specialists in the provisional stamps area (include Hryhoriy Lobko).
So, don't hesitate to ask.
By the way, there is a special sub forum about Ukrainian provisional stamps : http://rusforum.mystampworld.com/viewforum.php?f=14" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

p.s. I'd suggest to start split our discussion to avoid offtopic.
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were sca

Post by vasia »

Following up on maptrekker's nice hand-revalued envelope from Ashkhabad, I provide below 2 further examples from Ufa, Bashkiria.

Image

Image

1. Used on 3/4/1993 to Petrograd. The 7k Soviet PSE is hand-revalued to 150k, the correct inland ordinary letter rate for the period 10/12/1992 to 26/4/1993.

Image

2. Used on 23/12/1993 to Petrograd. The 1R 50k Russian PSE (intended for the above rate) had been revalued to 6R to cover the inland ordinary letter rate for the period 26/4/1993 to 2/8/1993. But, by the time of posting this letter, even this revaluation was insufficient. Additional Russian definitives had to be added to cover the new 15R rate.

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were sca

Post by maptrekker »

Ufa registered local letter with an old Soviet postmark of 11 May 1993 and a 60-ruble new style РОССИЯ meter. I do not understand the 60 rubles?

I have been told that local postmasters did have the right to set local commercial rates independently of the standard rates.

Image

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were sca

Post by norvic »

maptrekker wrote:Ufa registered local letter with an old Soviet postmark of 11 May 1993 and a 60-ruble new style РОССИЯ meter. I do not understand the 60 rubles?

I have been told that local postmasters did have the right to set local commercial rates independently of the standard rates.

Image
The USSR postmark is from a machine - is the Rossiya 60/00 postage paid mark applied at the same time by the Ufa machine postmark? I know that some machine postmarks were adapted to apply a variable value rather than a date.
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by maptrekker »

I does appear that the meter and postmark were applied together by machine. I had not noticed that.

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by norvic »

maptrekker wrote:I does appear that the meter and postmark were applied together by machine. I had not noticed that.
It's more obvious on others that I have - and then you look for it!
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by vasia »

The cover of maptrekker from Ufa is definitely perplexing, given that the registered letter rate of the period is 8R!
Assuming that we are not dealing with a distinct "local" (Ufa) rate (and the covers I have recorded from Ufa from that period do not suggest such local use), I can speculate on two possibilities for the cover's unusual franking:

1. The cover might be franked at a local registered letter rate of 6R (hypothetical 4R for local letter + 2R for the registration rate of the period). Of course, this hypothesis rests on the assumption that in the Russian meter used the "0" of the "60" is disregarded and that there exists in fact a 4R local letter rate.

2. The cover, forming part of a mass mailing from a commercial establishment, was franked originally at the 60R international simple letter rate, but its use was subsequently altered (with the addition of the Zakaznoe handstamp) without altering the meter.

Personally, I would lean towards the first hypothesis, but I have no data to support a 4R local letter rate.

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were sca

Post by vasia »

Another example of manuscript franking this time from Ukraine:

Image

Mailed 4/4/1994 from Slavyansk (Donetsk oblast) to Donetsk, where it was backstamped 3 days later. The appropriate 200 Krb registered letter rate was paid in cash and this was denoted with the manuscript "СВОР ВЗЫСКАН 200 Krb" (roughly=postal fee was collected) + the signature of the postal clerk.

Interestingly, this form of cash franking (either manuscript or with analogous handstamps) was used during the fall of 1921 in Soviet Russia, when the large increases in postal rates and the paucity of appropriate stamps made it necessary.

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by norvic »

vasia wrote:Interestingly, this form of cash franking (either manuscript or with analogous handstamps) was used during the fall of 1921 in Soviet Russia, when the large increases in postal rates and the paucity of appropriate stamps made it necessary.
There are a lot of parallels, especially in Ukraine - just look at all the trident overprints. I wonder if any of the 1920s handstamps were brought out of retirement 70 years later? :lol:
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were sca

Post by YuriyV »

By the way. About Ukrainian philatelists who actively did provisional covers either counterfeited or "canceled by order". The gallery is taken from PhilForum's topic, dedicated for this exactly question (An energetic "producers" of provisional covers). You have to remember style, handwriting and other features of these covers for distinguish similar covers in the future.

Vitaliy Higniak (Zaporizha)
Image link inactive. Removed
http://rusforum.mystampworld.com/download.php?id=2817" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

S.Demijanenko (Nikolaev)
http://rusforum.mystampworld.com/download.php?id=4960" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Boris Nogechik (Melitopol)
Image link inactive. Removed

Vladimir Martyniuk (Melitopol)
Image link inactive. Removed

V. Bojko
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by maptrekker »

Were any of these counterfeit? Or were they just prolific producers of philatelic covers?

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by maptrekker »

Did these covers actually go through the mails?

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by YuriyV »

maptrekker wrote:Were any of these counterfeit? Or were they just prolific producers of philatelic covers?
Bojko's cover presumably bears counterfeited Bojarka. Other covers bear quite genuine stamps.
Here problem is in cover "producing". Usually provisional covers are part of postal history and cost much more then alone stamps. These guys "produced" a lot of provisional covers to the prejudice of fellow philatelists. Definitely, serious collector should be aware about them. Any philatelic exhibition judge should decrease a grade to those philatelist who will display covers, like these, as good postal pieces (without note this is a philatelic item).
maptrekker wrote:Did these covers actually go through the mails?
Zaporizha and Melotopol went through mail. But this fact does not honor them.
Other covers are very tentatively went mail.
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by YuriyV »

vasia wrote:If all Rovno-22 cancellations are fabrications, it would appear that the Gosha cancellation needs to be a favor cancel.
I agree. Looks like a favor cancel.
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were sca

Post by vasia »

Very valuable information, Yuriy!

The cover below was sold to me back in 1996 as a fake Nikolaev provisional, despite the fact that it appears to originate from a commercial establishment. The cover is addressed to a location within the Nikolaev oblast (see backstamp):

Image

Image

Image

Any thoughts about the nature of the cover and of the provisional stamp? Is the rate used the correct for the period? What about the backstamp?

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by maptrekker »

The receiving postmark is of Mishkovo-Pohorilove with Russian (Мешково-Погорелово) on the outside and Ukrainian (Мішково-Погорілове) on the inside.

Can you make out what the postmark reads? It seems to say Nikolaev something and I cannot read the date.

In any case, the 9-krb. rate would be valid from 21 May 1993 to 9 Sep 1993.

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by vasia »

The machine postmark on the front is from Nikolaev СОРТИРОВКА, dated 17/3/1993.

The arrival postmark of Mishkovo-Pohorilove is dated 18/3/1993.

So we are dealing with the rate prior to May. The question therefore still holds: what was then the official rate for correspondence within Ukraine? I think it was 3R, but I have recorded some usages of a 2R rate from several locations in Ukraine.

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by maptrekker »

СОРТИРОВКА -- That is something like Nikolaev Sorting.

3 rubles was indeed the domestic rate (6 Jan 1993 - 4 Jun 1993). You would need 9 rubles for a letter over 80g.

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were sca

Post by maptrekker »

Here are three philatelic covers with Nikolaev provisionals that I think are genuine. They are all postmarked 18 Aug 1993 НИКОЛАЕВ 3 НИКОЛ. МАКОЛАІВ 3. Two of them have a Soviet 3R stamp making up part of the rate.

This one is has a domestic "З" Nikolaev 3 registration hand stamp and is addressed to Kiev with a 19 Aug 1993 Kiev receiving postmark on the back. It is rated 18 krb. which was the registered domestic rate from 5 Jun 1993 to 9 Sep 1993.

Image

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by gavin-h »

Maptrekker, I agree. That looks genuine, but clearly "philatelic" - the deliberate use of "local", Ukraine and USSR stamps to make up the rate (and the fact that you have 3 with the same date) indicate this to me.

However, I must take issue with some of the earlier posts in this thread which are quite disparaging towards "philatelic" material, and seem to imply it is little or no better than outright fabrications. Philatelic covers are NOT bogus in any way, and have been through the post (for wahtever purpose). For much of the material in this area (as with Soviet-occupied Germany at the end of WW2), is the ONLY way to acquire many of the local items. Catalogues such as Michel would clearly acknowledge this thing and provide prices (often high prices) for philatelic usage.

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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by YuriyV »

vasia wrote:fake Nikolaev provisional, despite the fact that it appears to originate from a commercial establishment.
...
Any thoughts about the nature of the cover and of the provisional stamp?
All Nikolaev provisionals were counterfeited by copying original stamps using copier on a post office and were selling as originals. So from postal history perspective these forgeries were some sort of "additional" issues (sometimes were in prejudice of postal authority, sometimes weren't). Your cover looks like good item with counterfeited stamp. But I'd say, the stamp needs some expertise.
vasia wrote:Is the rate used the correct for the period? What about the backstamp?
This is a Tariff-3 -- 3krb. We have 2krb. This was wide used practice.
Backstamp is good as well.
So, I'd suggest this is a good item.
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by YuriyV »

maptrekker wrote:Here are three philatelic covers with Nikolaev provisionals that I think are genuine. They are all postmarked 18 Aug 1993 НИКОЛАЕВ 3 НИКОЛ. МАКОЛАІВ 3.
Cover definitely is philatelic. The stamp is genuine. Let me know, if you need non philatelic items with this stamp. I have some duplicates.
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by norvic »

YuriyV wrote: All Nikolaev provisionals were counterfeited by copying original stamps using copier on a post office and were selling as originals. So from postal history perspective these forgeries were some sort of "additional" issues (sometimes were in prejudice of postal authority, sometimes weren't). Your cover looks like good item with counterfeited stamp. But I'd say, the stamp needs some expertise.
YuriyV

Forgive me for asking for clarification on this but you have used the words 'counterfeited' and 'forgeries' .

If the copying 'using copier on a post office' was not in prejudice of postal authority, ie the money went to the postal authority, then should we not regard these as official reprints created by photocopying the original? If that is the case, then they are not counterfeit or forgery but genuine reprints "issued" by the Post Office ?
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Re: The ex-USSR 1992: What did they use when stamps were scarce?

Post by YuriyV »

norvic wrote:Forgive me for asking for clarification on this but you have used the words 'counterfeited' and 'forgeries' .
This is important question.
norvic wrote:If the copying 'using copier on a post office' was not in prejudice of postal authority, ie the money went to the postal authority, then should we not regard these as official reprints created by photocopying the original? If that is the case, then they are not counterfeit or forgery but genuine reprints "issued" by the Post Office ?
It's impossible to say how money were used after selling these stamps. Often the counterfeited stamps were produced for illegal profit by post office workers in cooperation with third part persons (like philatelists) in prejudice of postal authority (this fact reflected is reflected in the H.Lobko's catalog). Definitely, if stamps were produced, sold and sent in regular manner, through post office then these stamps are good philatelic items. But they remain as counterfeited stamps from postal history perspective.
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