Explain USA Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake shades, etc in plain English?

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Explain USA Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake shades, etc in plain English?

Post by AlexaMonkey »

I know no one can 'tell' me definitively how to tell the difference, but I would love some basic plain English info on the difference - which one is darker?

What's a lake vs. a carmine lake? etc etc. I'm dealing with several 1 & 2 cent Franklin / Washingtons - about 50 or so, which all seem just a bit different.

I am having trouble getting the basic facts of the situation! :shock: :?
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by jaywalker »

Image

On LHS, from top:
1. Brown-Lake
2. Lake
3. Crimson
4. Carmine
5. Rose
6. Rose-Red
7. Rosine
8. Carmine-Red
9. Scarlet

No carmine-lake on this guide - and this is a French representation of Stanley Gibbons colouring.

You might want to look at purchasing a Scott color guides - this thread https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=66764#p4309435 has some references.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by kuikka »

The above post assumes you use SG. If you use Scott you need a Scott color guide.

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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by gavin-h »

kuikka wrote:If you use Scott you need a Scott color guide.
Kimmo is quite right. 8)

Without a colo(u)r guide for the relevant catalogue, all the descriptions of "darker", "redder", "less purple", "hint of pink", etc will really do nothing but confuse the issue. :?

All the major catalogue publishers also produce a colour chart, and it is an ESSENTIAL accessory, especially for older issues. :idea:

BUT - beware - some stamps fade over time or with soaking, so identifying shades on near 100-year-old stamps is always fraught with difficulty. :!:

The problems can be mitigated somewhat by buying good quality, lightly cancelled stamps from reputable dealers, but even then it can be tricky. Sorting through an accumulated pile of random stamps is probably as close to masochism as a mainstream hobby gets. :wink:
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by mobbor »

Your question is impossible to answer this way, but you should be aware of the convention that in a double-barrelled description like carmen lake, it is the 2nd colour that is dominant.

The colour chart above is not totally useless: carmen lake will be somewhere between carmen & lake, but closer to lake. Of course, the shades may be different on the issues you're investigating, I wouldn't know, but I expect they were basic definitives printed by the millions or more, so the shades will probably be 'shade groups' so you would expect variations within the same shade, so more than two shades- as you suggest.

Many of these variations will occur in the same basic shade- some will be paler & some deeper (not darker).

The best bet, I think, would be to find no more than half a dozen of the most 'different' ones and take them to a stamp club or fair, where someone, I'm sure will assist. And always check your shades in indirect sunlight.

As Gavin-h said, shading is the most difficult task that exists in collecting: it's up to you to decide if it's worth the effort.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by burneggroll »

LOL! So glad that it is not just me. Nice tips from mobbor, thank you :heart: I am reminded that when sorting for color, gemstone dealers always insist on northern daylight (preferably winter).

US #219D is considered the benchmark "Lake"
See the essay; What’s Up With the Color “LAKE?" by Charles Neyhart.
PDF online : http://www.nwpl.org/documents/NPLBookReportsmarch-april2011.pdf Pages 11-16.

I take my copies with the most disparate shades and mount them side-by-side. And say "There! I got them all. You can decide which is which." This application comes in handy when mounting Japan's 2s Kiku, which comes in many shades including; yellowish-green and greenish-yellow. LOL.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by jaywalker »

This might also help...

Image

(originally posted by Bazza4338 https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=247&
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by satsuma »

BUT - beware - some stamps fade over time or with soaking, so identifying shades on near 100-year-old stamps is always fraught with difficulty. :!:
And just to make it more difficult the colour chart can/will also fade over time.

See Bill Murray in "Lost in Translation" for the definitive response to questions about shades.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by psestamp »

LAKE IS NOT A COLOR anywhere but in stamp collecting.
It is a laking process but somewhere stamp collector had a brain fart and - PBTHSSST - There it is.

So given that it really isn't a color but the catalogue uses it - here we go:

Carmine Lake is a DEEP CARMINE color with "Bluing". :roll:
You have no chance of being able to get it from words. It has to match the color samples (see WHITE or PF or PSE).

I personally think it was a mistake to list it back a few years ago - It is a contrived variety that only serves to confuse people.
It can also be "created" by adding copper to a deep carmine stamp - so it is even harder as you need a UV AND a sample to expertise it.

I have seen many and I cant even pick them out without a color sample in front of me.

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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by Allanswood »

psestamp wrote:LAKE IS NOT A COLOR anywhere but in stamp collecting.
It is a laking process but somewhere stamp collector had a brain fart and - PBTHSSST - There it is.

So given that it really isn't a color but the catalogue uses it - here we go:

[/img]

I don't agree.

Lake has been used for centuries in the great works of art - painting.
Printers (in the old days) referred and used the colour "Lake".

It was the colour "Carmine Lake" that was first derived from the Cochineal insect. The problem being that as an organic and not mineral shade, it is somewhat fugitive.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by satsuma »

This website will tell you everything you ever wanted to know, and more, about the production, usage and properties of the carmine pigments.
It specifies earliest usage as the Ancient Egyptians on the one hand, and the Aztecs on the other.

http://www.webexhibits.org/pigments/indiv/overview/carmine.html
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by barryfe »

Lots of necessary caveats in regards to scanner and monitor calibration and variances, but all that aside, below are two scans from my copy of White's Encyclopedia of the Colors of United States Stamps. These may help. I can provide higher resolution scans via e-mail if anyone interested.

Image

Image
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by psestamp »

Wikipedia (no stamp collectors)
The "Real World

lake pigment is a pigment manufactured by precipitating a dye with an inert binder, or "mordant", usually a metallic salt. Unlike vermilion, ultramarine, and other pigments made from ground minerals, lake pigments are organic.[1] Manufacturers and suppliers to artists and industry frequently omit the lake designation in the name. Many lake pigments are fugitive because the dyes involved are unstable when exposed to light. Red lakes were particularly important in Renaissance and Baroque paintings; they were often used as translucent glazes to portray the colors of rich fabrics and draperies.[2]

lake Colors:

Image

These are all "Lake" colors

NOW that being said - I understand.
Marriage used to be a man and a woman and now isn't.
Money used to be gold and silver and now is paper.
Non-Dairy Creamer = Coffee Whitener
Powdered Sugar = Icing Sugar
Sneakers = Running Shoes = Runners
Kraft Macaroni and Cheese = Kraft Dinner

So why not.

Lets agree that "Lake" is Red
How about we make "Sky" Gray
Lets make "CLEAR" an off shade of Green
Lets make "Stamp Collecting" a very strange color shade between Orange and Purple.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by pertinax »

Great topic!

In relation to the Gibbons listed shade "brick-red" for some GB QV Penny Reds, it has more than once been said:

"Show me a penny red of any shade and I guarantee I can find a brick to match!"


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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by mobbor »

Psestamp

Why is it that you approach centreing with the precision of a nuclear physicist, but when it comes to colour red=lake?

Pertinax

We had a 'brick' with Australian KGV 1d reds. It was changed for the same reason. I don't know that pale terra cotta is any better.. It's actually quite a distinctive shade & not hard to recognise.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by psestamp »

mobbor wrote:Psestamp

Why is it that you approach centreing with the precision of a nuclear physicist, but when it comes to colour red=lake?

Pertinax

We had a 'brick' with Australian KGV 1d reds. It was changed for the same reason. I don't know that pale terra cotta is any better.. It's actually quite a distinctive shade & not hard to recognise.
Actually we do.

We have and continue to call colors by their PANTONE color name/mix.

There is no "Peachy Sumer-Olive" shades there.
They have 4625U which is a brown shade or 1767U which is a pinkish shade

Another aspect is that Pantone gives the "color mix".

For example 206U and 207U are both red shades. The both have RubyRed (84-87%) and Yellow (12%) but 207U has black (3%) which makes a significant difference.

So if you match these to the stamps - you can see from the color mix that in Stamp Collecting Terms, 270U is Blackish Red or Dark Red which helps immensely in translating Scotts or Stanley Gib color names into "real world colors.

Image

BTW - Lake (Scotts Cat Color variety) is in actuality PANTONE 200U (but it varies by issue - Lake isn't even lake across different issues which confounds the definition even more).

Image
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by mobbor »

Why Pantone? It's just a colour chart first developed in the 1960's with no particular reference to stamps. At least the original Stanley Gibbons colour chart used the actual inks of British colonial issues.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by burneggroll »

psestamp wrote:Actually we do.

We have and continue to call colors by their PANTONE color name/mix.
Pardon my ignorance. Who is "we"? I don't recall ever seeing a certificate with a Pantone color reference.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by jjarmstrong47 »

To reinforce what was said above about the differences between catalogues, this rather tired specimen is called Lake in Stanley Gibbons and Deep Carmine in Scott.

Image

You choose!
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by psestamp »

mobbor wrote:Why Pantone? It's just a colour chart first developed in the 1960's with no particular reference to stamps. At least the original Stanley Gibbons colour chart used the actual inks of British colonial issues.
First - "we" is PSE

"we" had to choose some color guide.
Picking a color guide that is accepted out-side of stamp collecting had great appeal.
Being a "large business", Pantone is not likely to change were as StanGig or Scotts will depending on who they have as a printer.

If you want a color chart - why not go with the largest color chart in the world?

Nothing against StanGib or Scotts but it is way more feasible to go out-side of philately for color research (see the above comments).
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by jjarmstrong47 »

I agree that using what is now an international standard makes a lot of sense. One advantage of pantone is that your computer can give you an idea of what the colour is. After you scan you can sample in programmes like Publisher and check the pantone reference.

The only problem with that, of course is that you are relying on the scanner to give an accurate copy but it should not matter what monitor setting you use as the programme is looking at the digital signal rather than the image you see on the monitor.

Another way to check this is to make friends with your local paint store (or Bunnings?). You can take a sample of anything in there and their computer will analyse the colour and give you a Pantone readout. This then enables them to match a new batch of paint to that colour. They could easily analyse a stamp shade if they had a mind to.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by mobbor »

Yes, they could "examine the stamp shade", but it would bear no relationship to the now traditional names for shades of the Aust. KGV 1d red, with its pale terra cotta, plum, damson, etc. and equivalent in other country's classics, like pigeon blood(?)

Do you really want to start again with shade naming?

In addition, sometimes the daylight shade is not the sole determinant, e.g. the amazing luminescence of eosin under the uv lamp.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by briggia »

The confusion for many newbies/returners to the stamp world is that many of the colour terms take time to get used to because they not, on first glance, appear to relate to that being described.

For example - Lake.

Taken in isolation 'lake' conjours up images of water and therefore blue and green related colours in the mind. Getting the 'uninitiated' brain to think lake refers to a shade of red is, at first, a bit of a brain-twist.

As many have pointed out already, the definition of 'lake' in relation to pigments is simply a type of manufacture. Renaissance artists such as Titian very famously used Red Lake ( a distinctive shade of red) to fantastic effect.

Over time I suspect that Red Lake has simply lost the red from 'red lake' and been truncated to plain "Lake". The more Lake has been used alone the more acceptable in usage it has become.

The experienced instinctively know that Lake refers to a particular shade of red; the less experienced of us just need to take the time to understand the derivation and then things become much clearer.

Just like that slightly brown shade water gets just when you think you are just beginning to be able to see through it.

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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by psestamp »

briggia wrote:The confusion for many newbies/returners to the stamp world is that many of the colour terms take time to get used to because they not, on first glance, appear to relate to that being described.

For example - Lake.

Taken in isolation 'lake' conjours up images of water and therefore blue and green related colours in the mind. Getting the 'uninitiated' brain to think lake refers to a shade of red is, at first, a bit of a brain-twist.

As many have pointed out already, the definition of 'lake' in relation to pigments is simply a type of manufacture. Renaissance artists such as Titian very famously used Red Lake ( a distinctive shade of red) to fantastic effect.

Over time I suspect that Red Lake has simply lost the red from 'red lake' and been truncated to plain "Lake". The more Lake has been used alone the more acceptable in usage it has become.

The experienced instinctively know that Lake refers to a particular shade of red; the less experienced of us just need to take the time to understand the derivation and then things become much clearer.

Just like that slightly brown shade water gets just when you think you are just beginning to be able to see through it.

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You are probably correct - well said
mobbor wrote:Yes, they could "examine the stamp shade", but it would bear no relationship to the now traditional names for shades of the Aust. KGV 1d red, with its pale terra cotta, plum, damson, etc. and equivalent in other country's classics, like pigeon blood(?)

Do you really want to start again with shade naming?
If it is broken then why not.

BTW - again we are not dealing with "names" per-se.

"Pigeon blood" is 7431U

so 7431U is "Pigeon Blood" or "Red Pink" or "Carmine Rosy Pink" or "Aunt Mildred's Cat Pink"

Pick a name but the color "recipe" is consistent and accurate and you can pull up a color swatch in the internet.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by Armarantine78 »

You know you have grown up as a stamp collector when you only know Lake as a red stamp shade! :lol:
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by mobbor »

PSESTAMP

I can't believe you wrote this:-

Pick a name but the color "recipe" is consistent and accurate and you can pull up a color swatch in the internet.Here are the 3 'lake' shades in the S.G. Colour Key, published in 1977.

Image

Do they look the same as when the colour Key was published 38 years ago? Obviously not: you can see variations, even though the colours are well protected. Do they look the same on your monitor as they do on mine? Probably not. Do they look the same on your monitor as the original? Probably not. On my monitor they do look reasonable as examples of 'dirty red', but that's not good enough.

Your perception of the colour on an actual stamp is affected by the inevitable white lines & other white areas, and the purpose of the hole in the middle is so you can concentrate on an area of a stamp that is solid colour.

As it happens, it will be of no assistance to the only 'shades' I'm interested in: lake may be the only colour name that is not used to describe any of the 67 different 'shade groups' that are used for all the KGV 1d reds. And these are shade groups. A gentleman by the name of Dr Bloggs came up in the 1930's, when there is a rough chance that the stamps he was researching still had their original colour, came up with 422 different shades.

Dates are very helpful and so sometimes is the UV reaction, but mostly you need good colour perception to start with and decades of experience, plus good facilities to study them in indirect daylight.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by GUTTERS »

Mobbor give up, you will not convince him, he and his little group of experts they have made up their own little world for stamps and are trying to make the rest of the world comply. It won't happen in our life time and I am as sure as hell it won't happen in his.

He is making money of people who get certificate from him with all those fancy new ideas, make a few dollars for them self and and then the item get sold to someone else at an inflated price and then that poor sucker ends up with a lemon.

10¢ stamp + price for certificate to tell you that it all fine and centered and the color is 7431U = a 10¢ stamp

You are wasting your time on this bozo.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by psestamp »

Well if you take a shot - I have to respond.

Last month - person gave us a stamp to expertize to go into auction from his fathers estate. Dead dad spent $over $4,000 on it - it was a US#67 - Mint Hinged. It was a #67 - cancel removed, rebacked and regummed. People need to get this stuff certified.

So this Bozo would have saved this guy $4,000+

AND - this is just the latest as we see faked stamps ALL THE TIME.

You on the other hand - from your comments appear to be ok with a Thief making off with over $4,000 of this poor guys money.

There is a reason for these classifications - they save people. Want to buy a valuable color variety? Just pay some guy for it and hope. Want to make sure crooks do not damage the hobby: work with the expertizing companies (all of them).

Want to see a BOZO? - look in a mirror.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by mobbor »

Ignoring a response for the moment, I don't know how my image disappeared. I was here for some time & I definitely did not remove it from photobucket (???)
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by Allanswood »

Its was a PB problem Mobbor, all fixed now it seems as I can see it.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by GUTTERS »

psestamp wrote:Well if you take a shot - I have to respond.

Last month - person gave us a stamp to expertize to go into auction from his fathers estate. Dead dad spent $over $4,000 on it - it was a US#67 - Mint Hinged. It was a #67 - cancel removed, rebacked and regummed. People need to get this stuff certified.

So this Bozo would have saved this guy $4,000+

AND - this is just the latest as we see faked stamps ALL THE TIME.

You on the other hand - from your comments appear to be ok with a Thief making off with over $4,000 of this poor guys money.

There is a reason for these classifications - they save people. Want to buy a valuable color variety? Just pay some guy for it and hope. Want to make sure crooks do not damage the hobby: work with the expertizing companies (all of them).

Well done you did the job you are paid to do

Want to see a BOZO? - look in a mirror.
psestamp wrote:So this Bozo would have saved this guy $4,000+

A TIME LINE OF A $10 STAMP


Now if we have a stamp and it is all okay (no regums' no reperf, no cancel removed and is very well centered) and the stamp is a carmine lake stamp as described in most catalogue's and you were to issue a certificate for it with your expertise in making a judgement on the centering of the stamp.

Your saying that it now gets the number for centering and a pantone number on the certificate.

I know and I think I can speak for about 75% of the worlds population when they view this certificate most would say what the £Ú¢l< (my new language)

And if the value of the stamp (that's catalogue) is let's say $10 the poor sucker who has now purchased this new fandango certificate with all it's new bells and whistles decides to on sell this item in the future the price is now $10 + the price of the certificate + whatever they wish to add because you have said that the stamp is this+this+this & this

A new to stamp collecting, collector now comes on to the scene and would like to start collecting that particular stamp(s) has now purchased the above stamp [at] $10 + the price of the certificate + whatever the previous owner wished to add because you have said that the stamp is this+this+this & this

Because he has done some research and has found out that stamps with certificate's are good to buy because an expert has look at it.

Value of Victim's Stamp $10

GUTTERS
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by psestamp »

GUTTERS wrote:
A TIME LINE OF A $10 STAMP


Now if we have a stamp and it is all okay (no regums' no reperf, no cancel removed and is very well centered) and the stamp is a carmine lake stamp as described in most catalogue's and you were to issue a certificate for it with your expertise in making a judgement on the centering of the stamp.

Your saying that it now gets the number for centering and a pantone number on the certificate.

GUTTERS
No - we still use the SCOTT CATALOGUE DEFINED COLOR NAME (we are a USA company so... Scotts instead or SGib or Mich) BUT we use the pantone to define what the color is. In the below case we will put ORANGE VERMILLION on the certificate but we will determine if that is the color by other means - namely the color study that breaks the names into the more usable pantone number.

Imagine for a moment - a person in the USA, Australia and Germany - all submitting a stamp - the catalogue is $20 but this particular color variety is $200. Scotts says it is ROSE CARMINE, SG says BRIGHT RED and Mich says ROSE RED.

FIRST - Guaranteed, all three color palates will differ. What color do you use? Who's color palate do you use?

As for the grade - we put that on when requested (normally people want grades if the stamp gets over an 80 or VERY FINE grade). Grades below 80 don't get a "premium" due to superior condition - remember that overall - the average classic period stamp is faulty and poorly centered so........ Showing that your stamp is a dog is not something people like - Telling your stamp has no taults and is superior quality - they do.

Image
GUTTERS wrote:
And if the value of the stamp (that's catalogue) is let's say $10 the poor sucker who has now purchased this new fandango certificate with all it's new bells and whistles decides to on sell this item in the future the price is now $10 + the price of the certificate + whatever they wish to add because you have said that the stamp is this+this+this & this

A new to stamp collecting, collector now comes on to the scene and would like to start collecting that particular stamp(s) has now purchased the above stamp (at) $10 + the price of the certificate + whatever the previous owner wished to add because you have said that the stamp is this+this+this & this

Because he has done some research and has found out that stamps with certificate's are good to buy because an expert has look at it.

Value of Victim's Stamp $10

GUTTERS
So a person gets a cert and then tries to sell the stamp? Are you saying this is bad? Are you are saying that the $10 stamp will have the price jacked up for NO REASON. This doesn't happen. A $10 stamp with a cert will be worth $10 plus a premium for the certificate IF THE CERT SAYS ANYTHING OF VALUE. The cert may say nothing of importance (have no value) or may make the stamp a "certified color reference copy" (usually has great value).

You set up a straw-man argument and tear it down - good debate style if the other person doesn't recognize the pattern. so here is my straw-man argument to you: :roll:

You collect stamps. You may pay $10 for a stamp as described above. There are people who are starving. $10 would feed them for a week or more. Most of the people starving are in Africa and that population is mostly black.

SO....
WHY DO YOU HATE BLACK PEOPLE?

Sorry - couldn't resist the straw-man



Image
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by MPSStampCollect »

USPS issues are mixing Pantone Matching System color codes alongside traditional color names. Examples:
  • 2019 ($0.70 "Nonmachinable Surcharge") California Dogface Butterfly: cyan, magenta, yellow, black, PMS 2726 blue, PMS 6C black.
    2019 ($0.50 "1st Class, Forever") Gregory Hines: cyan, magenta, yellow, black, PMS 435 grey.
    2019 ($0.15 "Additional Ounce") Uncle Sam's Hat: cyan, magenta, yellow, black, PMS 7 cool grey, PMS 7687 blue, PMS 7621 red.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by carmel »

Hi,

Did PSE choose Pantone over RAL?

RAL is an extremely popular color scheme which is widely used in Europe and in Israel.

Was there a reason for this or were you unaware of RAL?

It would be useful if the catalogues would include a reference to some outside common color chart.

Cheers,

Carmel
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by lsemmens »

As one who is only now returning to stamp collecting. Lake - to me, would refer to some shade of blue - think of water, so, in reading this thread, I have learnt something. The Pantone colours have an appeal as they are the current standard, and, as this thread has shown, the "standards" vary from country to country/catalogue to catalogue.

Is there a definitive list of the various comparisons anywhere that tells me what carmine-lake equates to in the various catalogues.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by satsuma »

Not a lake in sight - how sad!

Image

It must be all about salt water:
There's prawn and light prawn and coral and salmon red. :lol: :lol:

At least there's a carmine - I wonder how well it matches the shade people have in their minds?

And that Sardonyx - it sounds like a character out of Asterix.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by Allanswood »

On my colour calibrated screen, they look aweful.
"Strong Red" looks more "Dusky Pink".
"Vermillion" looks a mid Salmon.

And it depends on how the image has been scanned, copied, printed etc.
Image
Same brand, coded colours, but now look at red and carmine, much nearer to what I would expect.


Often a colour is chosen based on the other colours named around it to keep some sort of order. And that order may only refer to the stamp issue on its own and no others.

The named colour will usually be an old school formula where the ink is mixed to give a single shade of print. Many of them would be premixed sitting on a shelf such as Vermillion and Carmine.

Printers like Perkins Bacon would have had their own recipes and named shades of ink, used for many commonwealth printings. If they put a choice of carmine, lake or dull rose and the buyer circled "lake", then that's their ink recipe being used to print a stamp.

Coding a catalogue with Pantone colours might get you closer to what most well colour sighted people might see, but even the exact same Pantone colour used on matt or gloss paper, fabrics, walls, paint etc will often not look the exact same shade. And they all change with age.
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Re: EXPLAIN Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake, etc in plain englis

Post by Allanswood »

Found the reference book I was looking for... from 1832 with a description of "Lake" and that it was a regular commercial colour of ink.


Image


If you think getting your head around lake is hard try "Gall Stone" or "Roman Ochre". :D
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USA 1920s/30s 2c Red George Washington stamp - ALL the info!

Post by Peckhamrye1 »

Morning all,

Saw the posts here and thought I’d share what I’m calling out as a Red shade, Scot 279.
stamp 2c Washington red
stamp 2c Washington red

Any thoughts or counter opinions gratefully sought.

It is a very bright coloured stamp, the image is natural light on black ground, no enhancements etc.

Many thanks,

Peckham
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Re: Explain USA Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake shades, etc in plain English?

Post by Global Admin »

That scan looks wildly overexposed?
.
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Re: Explain USA Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake shades, etc in plain English?

Post by Peckhamrye1 »

Hi Admin,

Looking again, I’d say you’re 110%right!

I’m not achieving anything better image wise, even when I change the background to contrast/soften the electric pink colour I’ve somehow created.

I found this site though, which gives a good explanation of the difference between the 2c type III and type IV which could be useful for anyone else if not posted before.

https://stampsmarter.org/1847usa/1894/2cTriangleTypes.html

Thanks again admin and please delete my image if you can, or provide a warning that sunglasses are required to aid viewing!

All the best,


Peckham.
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Re: Explain USA Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake shades, etc in plain English?

Post by Peckhamrye1 »

Actually, going back to trying to defuse the neon pink, I managed to get this image which is marginally better when placed alongside a used version.
2c Washington stamps
2c Washington stamps
Identifiers in the stampsmarter link mentioned spots in ear, hair length, curved inner right T of Two, side of toggle in neck cloth.

Distinguishing the shade variances looks a nightmare, reading around the subject.

Hope this extra image is useful for anyone else looking at this issue/subject.

Regards,

Peckham
Hope this is helpful to others
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Re: Explain USA Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake shades, etc in plain English?

Post by psestamp »

Peckhamrye1 wrote: 15 Jan 2024 02:08 Actually, going back to trying to defuse the neon pink, I managed to get this image which is marginally better when placed alongside a used version.Image

Identifiers in the stampsmarter link mentioned spots in ear, hair length, curved inner right T of Two, side of toggle in neck cloth.

Distinguishing the shade variances looks a nightmare, reading around the subject.

Hope this extra image is useful for anyone else looking at this issue/subject.

Regards,

Peckham
Hope this is helpful to others
There are 1.2 bazillion shades of this stamp. RED is the "catch all" if it isnt one of the other colors.

There are only 2 colors of import - The PINKS and #279BC

Both are printed with ANAILINE inks and as such a UV Light is needed to expertise them but is very easy once you do put them under UV.

Just FYI - I am leaving out the 279Bi as i do not believe it exists. There is only one known and the PF expertized it and then never said anything else about it. I did a very extensive plate number survey on these colors - it is printed in the PHILATELIC BOOK OF SECRETS - volume #3.
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Re: Explain USA Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake shades, etc in plain English?

Post by billw2 »

psestamp wrote: 16 Jan 2024 07:04
Peckhamrye1 wrote: 15 Jan 2024 02:08 Actually, going back to trying to defuse the neon pink, I managed to get this image which is marginally better when placed alongside a used version.Image

Identifiers in the stampsmarter link mentioned spots in ear, hair length, curved inner right T of Two, side of toggle in neck cloth.

Distinguishing the shade variances looks a nightmare, reading around the subject.

Hope this extra image is useful for anyone else looking at this issue/subject.

Regards,

Peckham
Hope this is helpful to others
There are 1.2 bazillion shades of this stamp. RED is the "catch all" if it isnt one of the other colors.

There are only 2 colors of import - The PINKS and #279BC

Both are printed with ANAILINE inks and as such a UV Light is needed to expertise them but is very easy once you do put them under UV.

Just FYI - I am leaving out the 279Bi as i do not believe it exists. There is only one known and the PF expertized it and then never said anything else about it. I did a very extensive plate number survey on these colors - it is printed in the PHILATELIC BOOK OF SECRETS - volume #3.

THIS!!!!! There’s a ridiculous number of shades for the 279s and I think a lot of them are down to color changelings and environmental factors.

Good point on the UV, I remember having that discussion about them in the past. Not what I really collect off cover though.

I can spot the 3c 1861s usually and I’ve gotten good at the 24s. I posted a color chart of 70s and 78s recently, did you see it? Wondered your thoughts on it.
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Re: Explain USA Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake shades, etc in plain English?

Post by Peckhamrye1 »

Morning All,

Thank you for the feedback, and UV light tip, and I did the light test using a hand held UV strategically balanced as close as I could get above the stamp and comparison.

Some great points you both make, and I will scroll back through the posts to find your colour chart Bill.

I’m looking at the USA stamps with greater interest these days, the stamps I’m putting up
2c Washington stamp uv light test
2c Washington stamp uv light test
have been in my album since 1898, various environment conditions and changeling of colour is the most likely explanation, given the 2c comes up almost a pale orange shade under the UV.

Thank you for the great input, I do appreciate it, and hope the images are clear.

Best,

Peckham
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Re: Explain USA Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake shades, etc in plain English?

Post by blue-within-blue »


I have a reasonable quality digital camera (Canon), but it consistently over-exposes when I photograph a stamp on a black background to show up the margins, and under-exposes when I use a white background. The black background becomes grey, with the stamp shade too pale ; and the white background looks slightly toned, with the stamp shade too dark.

I assume that the camera is prioritising the larger area within its view ; and unlike with a traditional camera, I seem to have no way of making it prioritise the subject. I always need to use my image-processing software to edit the photos.

As a tip for making your photos as accurate as possible, I recommend using a black album page and/or white photocopy paper for the backgrounds. That gives you two "knowns" to aim for when editing. If the background appears as true black / white, the stamp shade should be about right.

To ensure that I'm showing a stamp as accurately as I can when selling on Ebay, I provide both black & white background photos. Where necessary, I'll mention in my description that the one with the white background is a better representation of the shade.

ROB
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Re: Explain USA Carmine, Lake, Carmine Lake shades, etc in plain English?

Post by andy66 »

blue-within-blue wrote: 17 Jan 2024 04:02
I have a reasonable quality digital camera (Canon), but it consistently over-exposes when I photograph a stamp on a black background to show up the margins, and under-exposes when I use a white background. The black background becomes grey, with the stamp shade too pale ; and the white background looks slightly toned, with the stamp shade too dark.

I assume that the camera is prioritising the larger area within its view ; and unlike with a traditional camera, I seem to have no way of making it prioritise the subject. I always need to use my image-processing software to edit the photos.

As a tip for making your photos as accurate as possible, I recommend using a black album page and/or white photocopy paper for the backgrounds. That gives you two "knowns" to aim for when editing. If the background appears as true black / white, the stamp shade should be about right.

To ensure that I'm showing a stamp as accurately as I can when selling on Ebay, I provide both black & white background photos. Where necessary, I'll mention in my description that the one with the white background is a better representation of the shade.

ROB
If you have a reflex camera and use it in manual you can't overexpose if you don't want to, if you want you can even underexpose.... of course if you shot automatic then you let the camera decide what to do, usually it does well but there are cases in which you have to go manual.

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