FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by The Pom »

Rigs wrote: 19 Apr 2024 21:50
With the last 10 transactions averaging £86 it has been a vibrant safe haven investment

Current market:

56 pieces, average asking price £77.30.

If you bought at the discount £90 issue price, that's a 14% loss. If you paid the full £100, a 23% loss.

According to the internet, inflation since issue has been 22%, so anything bought at £90 keeping pace with inflation would now be worth £110, or £122 if you paid £100.

So, with inflation factored in, a 30-37% loss, if you can find a buyer...
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Admin »

Rigs thinks the fastest way to become a millionaire is to buy $5 million of these silly slices and wait a while. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Rigs »

The Pom wrote: 25 Apr 2024 02:45
Rigs wrote: 19 Apr 2024 21:50
With the last 10 transactions averaging £86 it has been a vibrant safe haven investment

Current market:

56 pieces, average asking price £77.30.

If you bought at the discount £90 issue price, that's a 14% loss. If you paid the full £100, a 23% loss.

According to the internet, inflation since issue has been 22%, so anything bought at £90 keeping pace with inflation would now be worth £110, or £122 if you paid £100.

So, with inflation factored in, a 30-37% loss, if you can find a buyer...
Ah The Pom, Stampboards’ resident secretive socialist, who takes delight in plummeting UK house prices and the negative equity suffered by millions over the last decade, now also the wacky accountant :lol:

If you must sprout crap (as you put it), from little Hobbiton or wherever you are this week, do get your facts straight:
IMG_1115.jpeg
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by The Pom »

I'm not talking about what's been sold, that's history.

I'm talking about what's on sale now.

The fact that some have previously sold for an average of £87 is all jolly nice, but doesn't alter the fact that the owners of the current 56 pieces on sale will get £77.30 on average.

And that will land them with exactly the losses I described.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Rigs »

The Pom wrote: 25 Apr 2024 06:43 I'm not talking about what's been sold, that's history.
Well who knows what you are talking about?

The real world deals in facts, not what may or may not sell in the future using The Pom’s nutty formulas.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Admin »

Rigs wrote: 25 Apr 2024 06:54

The real world deals in facts


MOST of us do - I agree. :)

Rigs wrote: 18 Apr 2023 20:46
I can sell my digital collection at a profit, tonight if I chose to

Image


Out of interest, do you also go to the Bookies with your losing ticket and tell them they were wrong, and you'd like your money back?
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by adw »

Rigs wrote: 25 Apr 2024 06:54
The Pom wrote: 25 Apr 2024 06:43 I'm not talking about what's been sold, that's history.
Well who knows what you are talking about?
Seems pretty clear to me, he's talking about current asking prices.
The Pom wrote: 25 Apr 2024 02:45
Current market:

56 pieces, average asking price £77.30.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Rigs »

Global Admin wrote: 25 Apr 2024 07:09
Rigs wrote: 25 Apr 2024 06:54

The real world deals in facts


MOST of us do - I agree. :)

Rigs wrote: 18 Apr 2023 20:46
I can sell my digital collection at a profit, tonight if I chose to

Image


Out of interest, do you also go to the Bookies with your losing ticket and tell them they were wrong, and you'd like your money back?
Good to see the blind nun join the debate on facts.

The secretive socialist needs some guidance, lest he gets lost in his quirky quickbooks.

Speaking of facts, it seems to me you can purchase a piece for £100 at the moment?

Which is a profit, by anyone’s reckoning.

(BTW, I don’t go to bookies, but if I did I’d put my money on The Donald winning in November - no need to ask for your money back :lol:)
Last edited by Rigs on 25 Apr 2024 07:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by adw »

Rigs wrote: 25 Apr 2024 07:46
Speaking of facts, it seems to me you can purchase a piece for £100 at the moment?

Which is a profit, by anyone’s reckoning.
But nobody is actually buying them at £100 because pieces are available for much less.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by The Pom »

Form a queue to buy the £100 pieces, only 4 available..... :roll:
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Rigs »

adw wrote: 25 Apr 2024 07:50 But nobody is actually buying them at £100
How do you know that?

Stick to the facts, not the spread:
IMG_1115.jpeg
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by adw »

Please quote me in full, then it's self explanatory, rather than quoting half a sentence.

"But nobody is actually buying them at £100 because pieces are available for much less."
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Rigs »

adw wrote: 25 Apr 2024 08:19 Please quote me in full, then it's self explanatory, rather than quoting half a sentence.

"But nobody is actually buying them at £100 because pieces are available for much less."
Same response as above :roll:, and I will partly quote whatever you type as I please, just as others have quoted me above - from several years ago I might add … :lol:


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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Brit-Col »

Rigs wrote: 25 Apr 2024 07:46 Speaking of facts, it seems to me you can purchase a piece for £100 at the moment?

Which is a profit, by anyone’s reckoning.
If you wanted to you could purchase a piece for £150. Or £250. No doubt at least some of the current holders would be delighted to accept such an offer.

Remember, a functional market requires a willing seller - and a willing buyer.
(BTW, I don’t go to bookies, but if I did I’d put my money on The Donald winning in November - no need to ask for your money back :lol:)
There’re two active threads on that subject; no need to sidetrack this one.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by ozwire »

Now down down to 65 pounds.....
Showpiece British Guiana.png
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Admin »

Maybe Rigs is that seller at £69 of his 10 'super investment' slices?

A large loss, is far better than a TOTAL one?

MINUS a few years of lost opportunity costs on the money, in an era of soaring stockmarkets and interest paid on deposit money rates.

WE should put Rigs in charge of Australia Defence spending - he clearly has just the right 'big picture' mindset!

"If it does not fly, and does not float, and does not work, WE are the willing buyers - at TOP Dollar.'


Image

Those with a sense of fun and irony will notice that the signatory to this worthless wallpaper, Graham Shirecore, the clueless dope running Gibbons at that time, and pushed for them to buy this defective turkey, has ago lonnnnng ago jumped ship from S. S. Gibbons. He knew zero about stamps, and this crazy purchase proves that. The independent valuation of the GUANO is now MILLIONS OF QUID LESS than SG dumbly paid. The pitifully few Bunny Bait buyers of silly slices, have made little dent in that loss.

Rigs wrote: 25 Apr 2024 07:46
Speaking of facts, it seems to me you can purchase a piece for £100 at the moment?

Which is a profit, by anyone’s reckoning.

(BTW, I don’t go to bookies, but if I did I’d put my money on The Donald winning in November - no need to ask for your money back :lol:)


And Donald Trump will win? A great deal of my money says otherwise. We shall see soon enough. :D Biden's win paid for my mahogany flooring on all stories 4 years back, as again I had a very large bet on the obvious.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Rigs »

Global Admin wrote: 03 May 2024 12:34
The independent valuation of the GUANO is now MILLIONS OF QUID LESS than SG dumbly paid. The pitifully few Bunny Bait buyers of silly slices, have made little dent in that loss. [/centre]

The independent valuation was very low indeed.

Who knows what creative accounting goes on among administrators? :roll:

It will be interesting to consider its valuation after the upcoming Gross auction. The prices those pieces achieve will provide a comparative benchmark to what the Guano might be worth today.

Blue sky ...

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Admin »

Rigs wrote: 03 May 2024 14:16

The independent valuation was very low indeed.

Who knows what creative accounting goes on among administrators? :roll:


The current market valuation was done by Mark Bloxham a super experienced British Commonwealth stamp dealer.

Remember he was being paid by the OWNERS to value it. The fact it is low, simply proves SG clearly paid £ Millions too much, for this faded, repaired, and disfigured and now recently vandalised pink blur - they were the only bidder as I recall. :lol: :lol: :lol:

If you feel the guy YOU pay to value something. comes up with a low figure, MILLIONS less than you paid for it recently, is somehow 'creative accounting' in some way - do not enrol in any CPA or MBA Degree course is my strong advice. :lol: :lol: :lol:

The fact you willingly donated £1000 or so in exchange for your cute little piece of paper shown above, signed by the idiot who authorised SG to buy this pink elephant, proves a CPA or MBA Degree might not be a wise career path. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by The Pom »

Rigs wrote: 25 Apr 2024 08:07
adw wrote: 25 Apr 2024 07:50 But nobody is actually buying them at £100
How do you know that?

Stick to the facts, not the spread:

Image
If you insist.

Average sold pieces price down ~6% from £87 to £82.
Mag1.jpg
Average asking price down ~11% from £77.30 to £68.70.
Mag2.jpg
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Admin »

Rigs still wants £150. They are stellar investments he assures us. :)
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Rigs »

The Pom wrote: 24 May 2024 00:56
Rigs wrote: 25 Apr 2024 08:07
adw wrote: 25 Apr 2024 07:50 But nobody is actually buying them at £100
How do you know that?

Stick to the facts, not the spread:

Image
If you insist.

Average sold pieces price down ~6% from £87 to £82.

Image

Average asking price down ~11% from £77.30 to £68.70.

Image

It seems to me the 1c Magenta pieces are showing strong resilience in comparison to other GB philatelic assets?

6% or 11% pales in comparison to recent heavily discounted GB items from a well known dealer, by as much as 20% and half price:




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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by GB 789 »

Yes but no one would have paid full catalogue for those GB stamps to start with whereas you did pay full whack for the slithers of the Guiana!

I’m really not sure how you can compare two completely different things here anyway, clutching at straws comes to mind!
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by adw »

I think Rigs is going through a grieving process for his lost money and is currently at the denial stage.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Admin »

adw wrote: 24 May 2024 17:54
I think Rigs is going through a grieving process for his lost money and is currently at the denial stage.

He has been grieving for 4 years over Trump's last loss. He still denies Trump lost. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Rigs »

adw wrote: 24 May 2024 17:54 I think Rigs is going through a grieving process for his lost money and is currently at the denial stage.
Quite the opposite.

It’s among the favourite pieces in my collection, so much so that I recently signed it!

Do you like it?
IMG_1154.jpeg
It’s a lot more discreet and finer than the last owner.

For posterity …


(Glen, Trumpy’s coming for you mate, I know you’re excited about receiving a hand-crafted cacheted cover in November from the King Creek Press, plus FREE gift, but you’ll just have to be patient. Heck, I’ll even send one to The Pom, that’s if he can find a permanent address?)


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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Admin »

So are YOU the guy who graffiti sprays my fence?? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I think I'll electrify it for a short while. :idea:
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Rigs »

.

So, the 1868 One-Cent “Z” Grill postage stamp sold for $4,366,000 a few days ago.

According to Siegels, a result that exceeded the estimate by 22%.

Plus bumper results elsewhere in the auction indicative of the current demand for rare stamps.

Make you wonder what the One Cent Magenta might fetch in today's market?

Given SG picked it up for the bargain price of $8,307,000 three years ago in the middle of COVID ...

2024-06-17 14_17_27-The O.jpg
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Admin »

Rigs wrote: 17 Jun 2024 15:49
Make you wonder what the One Cent Magenta might fetch in today's market?

..... SG picked it up for the bargain price of $8,307,000 three years ago

Seeing the USA is 50 times more popular and sought after, than British Guiana, you have your answer. :lol:

But your astute business acumen is shown, as you paid £100 each for your worthless 'slices' - the value of which drops each day. :lol:

(I have this pretty Bridge over Sydney Harbour I will happily sell you slices of too at just FIFTY QUID APIECE if you are still solvent - I can send you photos of it. They even made a red stamp of it - tossed in FREE as a Special Bonus Offer with each valuable 'slice'. To claim this valuable gift, please use promotion code 'SUCKER'.)

1.jpg

The GUANO has been officially valued recently at HALF the 'Bargain Price' (coff) of what these geniuses paid.

A seller in Administration will take WHATEVER they are offered pretty much.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Number-O-Ne »

Global Admin wrote: 17 Jun 2024 16:17 Seeing the USA is 50 times more popular and sought after than British Guiana you have your answer. :lol:

The GUANO has been officially valued at HALF what these geniuses paid.
Yes. That's one of the factors.

The other one is, the company that issues the "shares" holds the power to decide on how and when to sell and how much fees to charge. In the off chance the Guyana stamp appreciates above purchase price, the shareholders will not see a penny of the profits.

Best case scenario will be getting back the initial investment, compounded by the joy of having provided an interest-free loan to the issuing corporation, whatever its official name might be.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by The Pom »

The Pom wrote: 24 May 2024 00:56
Rigs wrote: 25 Apr 2024 08:07
adw wrote: 25 Apr 2024 07:50 But nobody is actually buying them at £100
How do you know that?

Stick to the facts, not the spread:

Image
If you insist.

Average sold pieces price down ~6% from £87 to £82.
From Showpiece website:
£77 Average price paid over last 10 transactions
A further 6% drop.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Rigs »

Global Admin wrote: 17 Jun 2024 16:17
Rigs wrote: 17 Jun 2024 15:49
Make you wonder what the One Cent Magenta might fetch in today's market?

..... SG picked it up for the bargain price of $8,307,000 three years ago

Seeing the USA is 50 times more popular and sought after, than British Guiana, you have your answer. :lol:
Fortunately, delving into the sales history of the two stamps and comparing the results at various intervals over several decades is infinitely more reliable, and suggestive.

The Z Grill:

1975: $42,500
1977: $90,000
1986: $418,000
1998: $935,000
2005: $3,000,000 (swapped for block of inverted Jennys)
2024: $4,366,000

The Guano:

1922: $32,000
1970: $280,000
1980: $935,000
2014: $9,500,000
2021: $8,370,000

So while it might be true that collecting USA is ‘50 times’ more popular than collecting British Guiana, not so when talking about ultra rare stamps.

Whose value bears no allegiance to flags or geographic borders.

While the years above don’t correspond exactly, it is easy to discern the Guano has traded at a multiple of approximately two-three times the one cent Z Grill, historically speaking.

Blue skies …

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Last edited by Rigs on 18 Jun 2024 00:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Admin »

Rigs .. you really need to get out more. I sell UNIQUE stamps all the time - from popular areas, for under 4 figures.

That is the REAL world.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by deltic1575 »

Rigs wrote: 18 Jun 2024 00:37
Global Admin wrote: 17 Jun 2024 16:17
Rigs wrote: 17 Jun 2024 15:49
Make you wonder what the One Cent Magenta might fetch in today's market?

..... SG picked it up for the bargain price of $8,307,000 three years ago

Seeing the USA is 50 times more popular and sought after, than British Guiana, you have your answer. :lol:
Fortunately, delving into the sales history of the two stamps and comparing the results at various intervals over several decades is infinitely more reliable, and suggestive.

The Z Grill:

1975: $42,500
1977: $90,000
1986: $418,000
1998: $935,000
2005: $3,000,000 (swapped for block of inverted Jennys)
2024: $4,366,000

The Guano:

1922: $32,000
1970: $280,000
1980: $935,000
2014: $9,500,000
2021: $8,370,000

So while it might be true that collecting USA is ‘50 times’ more popular than collecting British Guiana, not so when talking about ultra rare stamps.

Whose value bears no allegiance to flags or geographic borders.

While the years above don’t correspond exactly, it is easy to discern the Guano has traded at a multiple of approximately two-three times the one cent Z Grill, historically speaking.

Blue skies …

.
Since 1970 the Guano has increased in value 30 fold, since 1975 the Z Grill has increased more than 100 fold. To keep pace with inflation the Guano would needed to have increased 20 fold. So it's done better than inflation.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Rigs »

.

Yes, one thing that is certain is the Mark Bloxham ‘official’ valuation referenced by some in previous posts is nonsense from a historical perspective. :roll:

Based on the comparative data above, and last Friday’s result for the one cent ‘Z’ Grill, puts the Guano estimate at around $10-$12m if it were offered for auction in the real world today.

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by adw »

Has the condition of the Z grill deteriorated over the years like the Guano?
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Rigs »

adw wrote: 18 Jun 2024 08:56 Has the condition of the Z grill deteriorated over the years like the Guano?
.

Well it's possible.

And Weinstein's grubby signature didn't help its prospects at the last sale.

But consider at the Siegels auction, even an inverted Jenny with undescribed unfolded-perf-with-a-thinned-crease still fetched 20k above estimate.

.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by blue-within-blue »


" Has the condition of the Z grill deteriorated over the years like the Guano? "

Comparing the Wiki photos of the two known examples, the answer appears to be Yes.
Z grill 1-horz.jpg
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Last edited by blue-within-blue on 18 Jun 2024 20:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by The Pom »

The one on the right is a picture of a newspaper cutting. This can hardly be expected to be an accurate reproduction of the stamp's current condition.
Always on the lookout for Australian pre decimal First Day Covers.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by blue-within-blue »


My edit was a few seconds late ...

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by The Pom »

For clarity, there were 3 pics previously in Rob's post, now edited to remove the scan of a newspaper cutting of the Gross example.

That said, while the Gross copy looks paler than the other one, you can't really compare them. Different makes & model of scanner, different settings etc.

Rather than the blue of the design, look at the white of the margins - completely different. The brightness/intensity settings of the scan on the left are clearly turned up high, whereas the Gross scan is dull & washed out in comparison.

Unless they are seen/scanned side by side, comments on the colour aren't much more than speculation.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by fletches1 »

Some colour variations, all done with the same scanner.

No Z grills !! :evil:
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Admin »

fletches1 wrote: 18 Jun 2024 22:11
No Z grills !! :evil:

NO! Send an email to Gibbons and tell them you THINK you have this card of 'Z' Grills, and for £20,000, they can secure them, and display next to the GUANO. :)

Rigs and his lemming mates will each buy £1000 of virtual slices, and they are well away. :mrgreen:


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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Rigs »

Global Admin wrote: 19 Jun 2024 01:18
fletches1 wrote: 18 Jun 2024 22:11
No Z grills !! :evil:

NO! Send an email to Gibbons and tell them you THINK you have this card of 'Z' Grills, and for £20,000, they can secure them, and display next to the GUANO. :)

Rigs and his lemming mates will each buy £1000 of virtual slices, and they are well away. :mrgreen:


Image
.

£20,000? Another 'super experienced British Commonwealth stamp dealer' valuation plucked out of thin air :lol:

And don't tell me, '50 times more popular' than Botswana or Tuvalu or wherever ... :roll:

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Admin »

Well ask only £20,000, as they are a company in Administration, sadly. One needs to price such lemons based on real expectations.

The days when they were NOT, was when they had £8 mullion of other people's money to toss about. :mrgreen:
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by billw2 »

The Pom wrote: 18 Jun 2024 21:43 For clarity, there were 3 pics previously in Rob's post, now edited to remove the scan of a newspaper cutting of the Gross example.

That said, while the Gross copy looks paler than the other one, you can't really compare them. Different makes & model of scanner, different settings etc.

Rather than the blue of the design, look at the white of the margins - completely different. The brightness/intensity settings of the scan on the left are clearly turned up high, whereas the Gross scan is dull & washed out in comparison.

Unless they are seen/scanned side by side, comments on the colour aren't much more than speculation.
They’re comparable. It’s been like 17-18 years IIRC but I saw them both in person at the National Postal Museum when they were on display there.

The Miller copy is not the nicer of the two but it did have excellent color. That being said the 1c 1861s don’t suffer from color degradation anything like some of the other 1861 issue stamps such as the 24c (which I have a specialized collection of) or the 3c.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by yellowduck »

Scrolling through an online catalogue for an antiques auction, and the thumbnail for this lot jumped out at me.
Robert 'Mouseman' Thompson carved oak bread board
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by norvic »

yellowduck wrote: 30 Jun 2024 08:10 Scrolling through an online catalogue for an antiques auction, and the thumbnail for this lot jumped out at me.
Robert 'Mouseman' Thompson carved oak bread board

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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Fleurieu55 »

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by Global Admin »

Love it!
.
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Re: FULL history of the unique 1856 1c black/magenta, British Guiana stamp

Post by ozwire »

Must be time for another update on the Showpiece marketplace. Down another 10%- available at 58 pounds!!
showpiece.com.jpeg
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