Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

moondog0 wrote: 22 May 2023 04:51 Here are some stamps that I got several years ago in a big batch of stamps called "Indian sub-continent". They were mixed with stamps of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Burma, Bhutan, Nepal and Ceylon.

Unlike those stamps, these India Native Stamps (the so-called "uglies") appear to be not toned and printed on similiar pretty paper. Like the India Queen Victoria stamps in strange colours I got in the same batch, which I posted and were viewed as at best proofs, or at worst fakes or fantasies. These look dubious to me:

T :? ImageImage
You are correct. These are all modern imitations/forgeries.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss Indian States stamps

Post by banknoteguy »

These all look like copies/reprints/fantasies.
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India Cochin 1933-38 Colour trials - an Ebay find!

Post by Chris111 »

Earlier in the year I found these Cochin colour trials for 2¼a and 10a in a album page of otherwise uninteresting Indian states on Ebay. I was lucky enough to get a bargain price - no one else bid ...

They are fine and fresh mint hinged. I decided to sell - so if you are interested they are Lot 382 in Stanley Gibbons auction, 'Stamps & Covers of the World' on 23 & 24 August. Start price £480. Auction info at:

https://tinyurl.com/7cueca23
Cochin colour trials
Cochin colour trials
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss Indian States stamps

Post by Global Admin »

Nice find. :)
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Re: India Cochin 1933-38 Colour trials - an Ebay find!

Post by boban76 »

Chris111 wrote: 05 Aug 2023 22:03 Earlier in the year I found these Cochin colour trials for 2¼a and 10a in a album page of otherwise uninteresting Indian states on Ebay. I was lucky enough to get a bargain price - no one else bid ...

They are fine and fresh mint hinged. I decided to sell - so if you are interested they are Lot 382 in Stanley Gibbons auction, 'Stamps & Covers of the World' on 23 & 24 August. Start price £480. Auction info at:

https://tinyurl.com/7cueca23

Image
Hello Chris
1st row last stamp is not a colour trial...its a regular issue SG71

George
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss Indian States stamps

Post by rakeshk »

Nice find, Chris! And quite reasonably priced starting estimate as well .. good luck!

Perforated color trials seems to be primarily of this issue, ie 3rd raja. I cannot recollect seeing perforated color trials for any other Raja issue. If anyone has more info on this please do share. Iam guessing there was a fair bit of experimentation going on with the move to litho printing in Madras and that was the reason for the color trials for this particular issue.

-Rakesh
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Re: India Cochin 1933-38 Colour trials - an Ebay find!

Post by RogerE »

boban76 wrote: 06 Aug 2023 04:22
Chris111 wrote: 05 Aug 2023 22:03 Earlier in the year I found these Cochin colour trials for 2¼a and 10a in a album page of otherwise uninteresting Indian states on Ebay. I was lucky enough to get a bargain price - no one else bid ...

They are fine and fresh mint hinged. I decided to sell - so if you are interested they are Lot 382 in Stanley Gibbons auction, 'Stamps & Covers of the World' on 23 & 24 August. Start price £480. Auction info at:

https://tinyurl.com/7cueca23
.
Image
Hello Chris
1st row last stamp is not a colour trial...its a regular issue SG71

George
A comment from the sidelines:

Given that the other seven stamps are recognisably colour trials, it seems reasonable to regard the stamp in position (1, 4) as also being a colour trial, in a colour which was subsequently chosen for the regular issue. Even if seen alone this stamp would appear indistinguishable from the regular issue, nevertheless, in the company of the other seven it seems credible that it was part of a colour-testing procedure ahead of the final colour choice and production of the issued stamps — in that case, its colour happens to be the colour chosen for final production. I wonder if some more technical examination (under high magnification, or ultraviolet light, or spectral analysis, etc) would show some differences between this stamp and examples of the issued stamp...

/RogerE 🦉
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss Indian States stamps

Post by Global Admin »

Very likely - might be different gum as well etc.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by GlenStephens »

mmaddury wrote: 08 Jul 2015 02:40
abhisri wrote:Folks: Request your comments on below 1p stamps of Rajpipla.

Image

The first stamp is of quite different shade (or should I say colour) than the rest. Also some of the characters are quite different e.g. J of Rajpipla. The dot after the character L of Tapal has either merged or is missing.

Image

In the fourth stamp, part of sword seems to be missing.

Image
I think the first one is just a faded copy. I have a few SG#1 in various shades.

The cliches are more interesting. The first one (missing/merged dot) is cliche R8/8. The fourth one (missing sword hilt) is cliche R1/6. Btw, these two stamps appear only in 1 cliche each of the 64.

You're off to a good start if you are planning to reconstruct a sheet. I did not position the other stamps, but a scan of the full sheet is below.

Image

I'm not certain, but I think there is only one setting for Rajpipla SG#1. Others may have more information.

Found this old Indian Fuedetory State, Rajipla 1880 stamp, dark blue. SG #1 cat £55 used with no variety, but Gibbons do not list the totally missing symbol or word in lower right corner. Seems untampered with to me, on a quick look. Might be a one off printing ink clogging etc, who knows?

Collector note says he purchased it from Bridger and Kay in the UK for £22 in 1979.

Anyone seen the Missing symbol or word on this? (Can any Indian member tell me if it is a word?) :)

Added it to stock at $A100 as 314LK, as lots of folks collector just 'SG£1' issues from around the world, and one with an error will always have appeal. :D
image0-005.jpg
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by sagi2917 »

Have not seen this before but for the question regarding the missing word, it is a part of the word as “so”

Together the two corners at bottom will be a complete word as “Pai” + “so” = Paiso which means a paisa or cent as we have in Australia. 100 paise equals to one rupee
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by Global Admin »

Excellent - many thanks for the expert translation! So that is Hindi language?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies

Post by peterh »

GlenStephens wrote: 23 Sep 2023 16:45 Found this old Indian Fuedetory State, Rajipla 1880 stamp, dark blue. SG #1 cat £55 used with no variety, but Gibbons do not list the totally missing symbol or word in lower right corner. Seems untampered with to me, on a quick look. Might be a one off printing ink clogging etc, who knows?

Collector note says he purchased it from Bridger and Kay in the UK for £22 in 1979.

Anyone seen the Missing symbol or word on this? (Can any Indian member tell me if it is a word?) :)

Added it to stock at $A100 as 314LK, as lots of folks collector just 'SG£1' issues from around the world, and one with an error will always have appeal. :D
Image
I believe this is an inking error rather than anything constant.

Of interest, but unfortunately has been provided with a fake cancellation.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by RogerE »

Before reading beyond the initial question, I wondered whether the Hindi was an abbreviation for two words, read from lower right corner first, then lower left corner:

सात पैसे [saath paise] — seven paise
—> सा [त] पै [से]
.
However, as implied by later contributions, the four corners straightforwardly state the face value:

एक पैसो [ek paiso] — one paiso
—> ए e क k पै pai सो so
The name of the princely state reads clockwise in the circle, from "8 o'clock" to "1 o'clock""

राजपींपला [rajpeepla] — Rajpipla
—> रा ra ज j पीं peen प p ला la [rajpipla]
Note that the style of the ल on the stamp is more bilaterally symmetric.
.
The inscription panel at the base of the sheet shows all the text set out linearly:

Screenshot 2023-09-24 at 5.02.05 am.png
राजपींपला ... एक पैसो
,
/RogerE 🦉
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Double paper puzzle on Cochin 1949 9p on 4p Green O104b

Post by Chris111 »

I bought this block on Ebay recently. The puzzle is that the two right hand stamps are printed on doubled paper, stuck together. The doubling appears to have occurred during the printing of the surcharge - you can see the impression of the surcharge on the back.

Any ideas as to what is going on here? And should I try separating (by soaking) the two. What might I find? And will I be ruining an interesting item, or alternatively find a more interesting item?

Comments and advice welcome.
Cochin 104b front
Cochin 104b front
Cochin 104b back
Cochin 104b back
Cochin 104b close up
Cochin 104b close up
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by Global Admin »

Looks like the selvedge has adhered to the original and the overprint was done on that double thickness?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by ikanek »

Global Admin wrote: 20 Dec 2023 01:41 Looks like the selvedge has adhered to the original and the overprint was done on that double thickness?
I think the same.
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Re: Double paper puzzle on Cochin 1949 9p on 4p Green O104b

Post by boban76 »

Chris111 wrote: 20 Dec 2023 01:07 I bought this block on Ebay recently. The puzzle is that the two right hand stamps are printed on doubled paper, stuck together. The doubling appears to have occurred during the printing of the surcharge - you can see the impression of the surcharge on the back.

Any ideas as to what is going on here? And should I try separating (by soaking) the two. What might I find? And will I be ruining an interesting item, or alternatively find a more interesting item?

Comments and advice welcome.
ImageImageImage
Hello Dear SB mates...after a long time something on Cochin..
The selvedge was folded in before the surcharge operation and during the surcharge process was the selvedge part received a colourless/inkless impression (better called albino) of the surcharge as a reverse impression..once you fold out the selvedge part to its full form you would be able to see the colourless impression in reverse.
This almost common on 6th raja full sheets as the surcharging plate(forme) was not wide enough to accommodate the 'wings' of the full sheet.

Rgds
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Re: Double paper puzzle on Cochin 1949 9p on 4p Green O104b

Post by boban76 »

Chris111 wrote: 20 Dec 2023 01:07 I bought this block on Ebay recently. The puzzle is that the two right hand stamps are printed on doubled paper, stuck together. The doubling appears to have occurred during the printing of the surcharge - you can see the impression of the surcharge on the back.

Any ideas as to what is going on here? And should I try separating (by soaking) the two. What might I find? And will I be ruining an interesting item, or alternatively find a more interesting item?

Comments and advice welcome.
ImageImageImage
Hello Chris
I suggest you better soak the block and fold out the wings and then dry it...once you do it you will be having a surcharge variety to exhibit though its common on these 6th raja issues.

Having said that after a long break im in and would love to answer any kind of questions regarding Cochin and Travancore states.
Rgds
George
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by Hemang »

As I like indian stamps and Indian history, i am enjoying this thread.

But i didn't liked the term "UGLIES" but anyways, they as as they were produced with available technology at that time, and they were improvised by time, and ofcourse there are actually few(or more) Uglies. But there are still many Gems available there:) so just for broader picture calling piece of history and things that defined Postal history of India - "Ugly" is not good, But okay

Thank you so much all for wonderful posts on this thread, i like collecting indian Princely state stamps, and I'm from Kathiyawar, and we had lots of tiny states here, as they were tiny tiny so printing of stamps wasn't that great, my favourites are Junagadh (soruth) and Gondal

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by RogerE »

Yes, I'm of a similar mindset to Hemang — calling those classic stamps "Uglies" is an unpleasant choice, carrying an unavoidable disdain. Calling them "Primitives" is not much better.

Belying such terms, for many collectors the unpretentious appearance and functionality of the stamps of the Indian states have an intrinsic charm and fascination, and the use of "Uglies" or "Primitives" does not accord them the respect they deserve.

Plenty of classic stamps from other nations could equally be thought "ugly" — for example, the Post Office Mauritius, the Bermuda cottonreels, the Tasmanian 1d Courier and 4d Octagonal, Uruguay's Diligencia, and the typewritten Uganda Missionary stamps. Yet each of these has its admirers, and the deepest financial resources are needed to acquire them. They are not prized for beauty, but for their functionality, their "honesty of purpose", their rarity, and their historical significance.

Calling them "classics" or "gems" or even "earlies" would accord the respect and high regard that they deserve. Sometimes we have to break with tradition, when the attitudes underlying that tradition deserve rethinking and change.

/RogerE 🦉
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by Global Admin »

Well for those who have not bothered to read post #1 they really should.

17,000 posts later, started and NAMED by a world expert on Indian States stamps, 15 years ago, it is a bit ho-hum we now get 2 members who do not even really collect this area, advising what new name THEY feel this thread should have. :roll:

Gotta luv stampboards. :!: :!: :roll:
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Soruth SG19 with watermark - Common? it's not catalogued

Post by Chris111 »

I've recently purchased two pairs of what I have identified as Soruth 1886 1a Green SG19 - please see the photo. One of the pairs (see next photo) has a sheet watermark. This is not catalogued by Gibbons.

Is this something unusual? Gibbons does note that SG 47 has a sheet watermark, but not any of the earlier issues.

Thanks for you help in advance.
Soruth SG19
Soruth SG19
Soruth SG19 with watermark
Soruth SG19 with watermark
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by Global Admin »

Sure looks like a watermark. :)
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Re: Soruth SG19 with watermark - Common? it's not cataloguedm

Post by peterh »

Chris111 wrote: 16 Jan 2024 22:25 I've recently purchased two pairs of what I have identified as Soruth 1886 1a Green SG19 - please see the photo. One of the pairs (see next photo) has a sheet watermark. This is not catalogued by Gibbons.

Is this something unusual? Gibbons does note that SG 47 has a sheet watermark, but not any of the earlier issues.

Thanks for you help in advance.ImageImage
My initial response was going to be, ‘No, this is not unusual’, but looking into the literature including the India Study Circle Soruth handbook, it seems that this has not been described elsewhere.

If you give me permission, I can post your image on the India Study Circle WhatsApp group to obtain a further opinion.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

Sorry Chris:

I located my small collection of these and spotted some partial sheet watermarks also.

It is odd that there is no mention of these elsewhere so I will ask about them in the WhatsApp group if you are happy with that.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by Chris111 »

Yes, please do ask …
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

Chris - sorry for the delay getting back to you. I have some further information from the India Study Circle about the Soruth sheet watermarks.

It seems that the laid paper for these issues does occur with a sheet watermark, but the watermark is only on part of a larger sheet which would have been large enough to print several of the sheets of stamps.

Therefore, although it is not rare to see the watermark, the issues would be somewhat more uncommon with one.

Others have noted that the laid paper for this sheet was supplied by John Dickinson & Co London, and has a circular watermark of 90mm in diameter with "THE LION BRAND" in a double circle around the top and in the middle a lion facing left holding a flag that states "REAL BOND".

It does appear, however, that this might not be the whole story and there may be several different watermark types in existence.

I will update here if I get any more news on this.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by dj_claz »

I expect this will be a quick and easy answer for someone on this topic.

I have this imperf Sirmoor block, crudely stamped in green on what is brownish paper. Just someone's terrible home-made attempt?
20240314_120531.jpg
20240314_120536.jpg
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by axr15 »

For the experts on India States: Is the attached cover genuine postal use? Thank you.
India Jhalawar combination cover.jpg
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

dj_claz wrote: 15 Mar 2024 00:49 I expect this will be a quick and easy answer for someone on this topic.

I have this imperf Sirmoor block, crudely stamped in green on what is brownish paper. Just someone's terrible home-made attempt?

Image
Image
One of the horrible forgeries that turn up regularly in Indian State collections.

Very common and so poorly printed that they shouldn’t fool anyone who has seen the genuine stamps.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by sagi2917 »

Please help to confirm if this is a genuine Junagarh/Soruth 1868 stamp
Front image
Front image
Back image
Back image
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

sagi2917 wrote: 15 Mar 2024 11:42 Please help to confirm if this is a genuine Junagarh/Soruth 1868 stamp

ImageImage
This is from the sheet of 16 official reprints produced in 1890 as a response to demand from collectors.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

axr15 wrote: 15 Mar 2024 09:39 For the experts on India States: Is the attached cover genuine postal use? Thank you.

Image
Looks ok to me, although it would be helpful to see the back.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by axr15 »

peterh wrote: 15 Mar 2024 23:52
axr15 wrote: 15 Mar 2024 09:39 For the experts on India States: Is the attached cover genuine postal use? Thank you.

Looks ok to me, although it would be helpful to see the back.
Thank you.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by sagi2917 »

peterh wrote: 15 Mar 2024 23:49

This is from the sheet of 16 official reprints produced in 1890 as a response to demand from collectors.
Thank you peterh
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by honza »

Ahoj everyone,

Can anyone please tell me more about this Cochin cover embossed Cochin Government on the flap?
Cochin Government cover
Cochin Government cover
indicium on Cochin Government cover
indicium on Cochin Government cover
Who is it addressed to and in what script and what are the postmarks on the front and back? What is the date?
postmark on back of Cochin Government cover
postmark on back of Cochin Government cover
Back of Cochin Government cover
Back of Cochin Government cover
What would be a fair price for such a cover?

Thank you for any help,

Cheers,

Honza
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

Hi honza.

This is a half puttan envelope issued in 1892.

The address and postmarks are written in the Malayalam language, but sorry I am unable to read it. Our member ikanek should be able to translate the postmarks if he sees this.

The value of these is not high, maybe 2-5 pounds/euros/ dollars .
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by honza »

Ahoj Peter!

Thank you for your quick and helpful reply.

Trying to estimate its age myself I was guessing 1920s so quite a bit out!

Cheers,

Honza
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by rakeshk »

This cover is addressed to the Anchal Superintendent in Ernakulam. It has a Chowara cancel at the front and Ernakulam cancel at the back.. it’s dated Meenam 1072 which is around March 1897 ( date is kind of unclear ). It’s not that expensive, I’d say around $10 would be a fair price
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by honza »

Ahoj rakeshk!

Thank you very much for your comprehensive and helpful reply.

Your response with that of peterh have answered all my questions.

Cheers,

Honza
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by ikanek »

rakeshk wrote: 29 Mar 2024 10:16 This cover is addressed to the Anchal Superintendent in Ernakulam. It has a Chowara cancel at the front and Ernakulam cancel at the back.. it’s dated Meenam 1072 which is around March 1897 ( date is kind of unclear ). It’s not that expensive, I’d say around $10 would be a fair price
I think that both dates read as 1 Meenam 1072, which should be 15th March 1897.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by honza »

Ahoj ikanek,

Thank you for even more information.

Cheers,

Honza
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by aranyadc »

There seems to be a revised update for the Koeppel Manners catalogue for Indian princely states fiscal and court fee stamps, can anyone let me know who are the new authors, and whether that updated book/ ebook is already out?
Like unusual stamps and unusually carried covers. Anything out of the ordinary. Visit my website blog http://www.aranyas.net/blog-on-carried-covers.html for an interesting read of such items.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

aranyadc wrote: 23 Jun 2024 06:44 There seems to be a revised update for the Koeppel Manners catalogue for Indian princely states fiscal and court fee stamps, can anyone let me know who are the new authors, and whether that updated book/ ebook is already out?
Try contacting our member ikanek.

See here:

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=75364&p=4647226#p4647226
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by sagi2917 »

Junagarh/Saurashtra SG10
SG10 Junagarh
SG10 Junagarh
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Soruth - Any chance to figure out the destination of a cover

Post by tbeberger »

Hi there
Have read large parts of this forum when starting to be interested in the IFS's and have learned a lot. Thank you all for pointing me to the many interesting aspects. Thought that it is now time not only to absorb information but to contribute, be it with questions or hopefully with some answers.

In the moment I am writing up my IFS 'collection' which includes what I call 'Authentic Asian Stamps', i.e. adhesives made in the state to be used in the state depicting an Asian iconography not mimicking European stamp issues. It includes also some issues from Afghanistan, Nepal, and Tibet which fall in my opinion in the same category. The first section is entitled 'The written word' presenting among others stamps from Soruth, Poonch & Bhor and I have a question regarding a cover with Soruth SG1.

Image
(it seems to be impossible to load pictures from my computer)

Is there anybody who can tell a stupid European who cannot read Devangari how he can figure out from / to which place this or any other cover came / was directed. There are no additional datestamps which could give a hint.
I tried with Google Lens to read and translate but this is a desaster. Presumably it has problems to work with handwritten text. I can relatively well translate printed text. Any idea?
Thanks alot for the moment
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

Hi Thomas, welcome!

See here on how to add an image:

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=90770
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by tbeberger »

del
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by tbeberger »

Dear peterh
Thank you for the instructions!
Soruth SG1 on cover
Soruth SG1 on cover
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - discuss the Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

Well done on posting the image!

I can’t read the script, but maybe one of our members from India can translate it?

It’s a nice cover. Did you win it at the recent Feldman auction?

I don’t know if you are aware, but much of that auction was from the collection of the author of this thread, tonymacg.
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