South Australia: "Squared Circle" Stamp Postmarks discussion

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South Australia: "Squared Circle" Stamp Postmarks discussion

Post by pres »

Admin Note, July 2014: South Australia stamp cancellations. Please post updates on THIS thread link - http://ow.ly/znmQW - to the superb 2014 Philatelic Society of South Australia trio - “The hand-held Postmarks of South Australia and the Northern Territory” large 3 volume set.

Add later dates, earlier dates, and new time code discoveries etc, WITH Photos. Editors will not list new material UNLESS they have sighted it and hence verified it.

Give that link if you need to pass the new thread onto others to add correx and amendments etc to the new books. Retail of the book set trio is $A199 plus post, and a detailed review, with photos is here - http://ow.ly/znfWy

==================

Hi Greg Ioannou,

Long time since we had contact. A book on South Australian postmarks including squared circles is getting closer to publication.

I know it has been said before, but the work is being thoroughly checked and all marks verified before being listed. Be prepared for a postmark listing in the many thousands and squared circle marks well beyond what has been previously listed.

A number of errors in the earlier books will be corrected as well. Due to the size of the book it will probably be issued in sections.

Tony Presgrave

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Re: South Australia Squared Circle Postmarks

Post by Greg Ioannou »

pres wrote:Hi Greg Ioannou,

Long time since we had contact. A book on South Australian postmarks including squared circles is getting closer to publication.

I know it has been said before, but the work is being thoroughly checked and all marks verified before being listed. Be prepared for a postmark listing in the many thousands and squared circle marks well beyond what has been previously listed.

A number of errors in the earlier books will be corrected as well. Due to the size of the book it will probably be issued in sections.

Tony Presgrave
Nice to hear from you, Tony!

I'm looking forward to the publication. Yes, I'm aware of many of the errors and omissions in the existing books.

Here's one I discovered a while back, and haven't seen documented anywhere: there are two types of Hindmarsh Island:

Image

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Post by pres »

Hi Greg,

Thanks for this, not sure whether we have recorded the two types but will check.

If not we will certainly add to the list

Tony.

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

pres wrote:Hi Greg,
Thanks for this, not sure whether we have recorded the two types but will check. If not we will certainly add to the list

Tony.
Thanks. I think that early type of Hindmarsh Island is the only squared circle in my collection that I haven't seen written up anywhere.

I'm currently playing with Goolwa and almost have myself convinced that Type 1 is actually two very similar types. The early ones have a wide L and the later ones have a narrow L. I haven't determined yet if it is a different hammer or just a piece of the bottom of the L broken off (like the broken E that caused the GLENFLG subtype of Glenelg).

I'd love this board to evolve into a place where collectors could discuss things like this.

Greg

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Post by ozstamps »

Greg ... looking closely at your scan please excuse my ignorance, but how do the 2 types differ?

Look pretty much the same to me anyway!
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Post by Greg Ioannou »

ozstamps wrote:Greg ... looking closely at your scan please excuse my ignorance, but how do the 2 types differ?

Look pretty much the same to me anyway!
Yeah, it took me a while to notice too. The first clue was the S in Hindmarsh -- it is a different shape. Then I looked at the R beside it, and it is different too. And the space between the two words is different. So I printed that scan out on clear plastic, cut out the two images, laid one on top of the other, and found that the two are different in many details. The early one is also quite a bit smaller.

That post office was open 1879-1899, then reopened 1901. So the first postmark is from before it closed, and the second from after it reopened.

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Post by GraniteSA »

Confirmed 2 types :(
Cheers
Neville

Collector of Southern Fleurieu Peninsula postmarks and postcards etc.

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

GraniteSA wrote:Confirmed 2 types :(
Thanks, Neville. I'm very happy to see you here. Sorry to see the sad face at the end of your note!

Had the two types been spotted before, or have I found something new?

Here's my current puzzle -- has anyone else noticed this one?

Image

Both type 1 -- but look at the different shapes of the Ls. A broken letter, or different hammers? The Os don't quite overlay when you print these out on plastic, but they come very close. I'm really undecided about what this one is.

Greg

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Post by ozstamps »

Welcome to your first post Neville. I hope you take the time to add your Study Group details to our FREE forum for doing just that - below.

http://www.stampboards.com/viewforum.php?f=22

(Perhaps the 'frown' smiley was that you simply chose the wrong one?)

You might have something to add to one of the Greg's other questions below on SA SC:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=10580&highlight=#10580
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Post by pres »

Now that Neville is on board, I will butt out, for the time being anyway, he knows far more about postmarks that I do.

Guest

Post by Guest »

Hi

Hindmarsh Island

The frown was for ANOTHER *#!*[at]! postmark

I had suspected a second type but had put it down as my imagination. Greg's copies were good enough to prove otherwise.

Goolwa

I think this is the same one with bits broken off.

My earliest clear copy with short legs is 1899.

The letters are exactly the same size and distance from each other on both types.
8)

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Post by ozstamps »

GraniteSA .. do not forget to log in top right, and then tick the "keep me loggied in" box!
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Post by Greg Ioannou »

Neville in disguise wrote:Hi

Hindmarsh Island

The frown was for ANOTHER *#!*[at]! postmark
I've come to the same conclusion as you have about Goolwa. I compared several other copies and the only definite difference I'm spotting is the L. So they go into my collection as Type 1a and Type 1b.

Want to talk about other places where I suspect more than one type exists?

We could start with Angipena, where the PO was closed for a longish time. Did the hammer survive or was a new one issued?

Does anyone have enough strikes of this guy to even know?

(BTW, my only copy of Angipena is dated SP 24 93, which I think might be the ERD. The PO opened August 19, 1893.)

Greg
Last edited by Greg Ioannou on 24 May 2007 13:14, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by ozstamps »

Seeing the thread is neatly headed South Australia Squared Circle Postmark discussion maybe Neville might pass on the word of this to any colleagues also keen on this area and it could become a most educational little corner to kick around all sorts of things in this area, seeing scans are readily and freely loadable via photobucket.com and other such programs??

The direct link here if anyone wants to pass this thread on to others is:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=12571
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Post by ozstamps »

Out of interest when did the LAST "commercial" use of SA numeral cancellers occur?

Philatelic things like this below from my stock from 1955 are sometimes about, but when did a real PO last use the SA numeral cancels, does anyone know?

Out of interest I timed myself .. from taking this cover from stock, and loading it all scanned and saved on photobucket for posterity, and posted on here took 127 seconds!

A lovely numeral/town "tie" - if nothing else!

Image

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

ozstamps wrote: Philatelic things like this below from my stock from 1955 are sometimes about, but when did a real PO last use the SA numeral cancels, does anyone know?
This one is a bit later, but also philatelic:

Image



Greg

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Post by ozstamps »

Ha! The PM must have been a collector of sorts, creating all these!
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Post by ozstamps »

(At least mine got the well worn vintage cds .... that looks to be what - 1920s era? )

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Angipena & Diamond Numerals

Post by GraniteSA »

Mornin' All

Angipena 1-9-1893 to 1897. Est 2-3 copies exist.
I have only seen the 1893 version.

Diamond numeral She Oak Log continued in use until 6/3/1981.
It was kept hidden under the counter so that the postal inspector wouldn't sieze it and was bought out on request for philatelists.
1905 was the last recorded genuine use.

I know of one official PO that still has theirs in the vault. (145yrs)
:wink:
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Neville

Collector of Southern Fleurieu Peninsula postmarks and postcards etc.

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Angipena & Diamond Numerals

Post by GraniteSA »

It's too early in the morning :roll:

Just re-read your post.
Angipena. With your example at least 3 exist. Can you post a scan of it?

Shea Oak Log. OK I can't spell.

The latest genuine use of a diamond numeral was from Redhill (DN313) 29/11/1913.
Cheers
Neville

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Re: Angipena & Diamond Numerals

Post by Greg Ioannou »

GraniteSA wrote:Mornin' All

Angipena 1-9-1893 to 1897. Est 2-3 copies exist.
I have only seen the 1893 version.
I've only seen the 1893 version too. Overton gives the LRD (last recorded date) as 1897, so the later one may well exist. I'd be curious to see the 1897 one.

Here's my 1893 strike:

Image

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SA&NT Squared Circles

Post by GraniteSA »

Hi

The following have one report of a square circle postmark.
I have never seen them or heard of anyone who has them.
They should exist BUT are they a figment of someones imagination?

Adelaide River
Apoinga
Eveleen

If you have seen them or better still have a scan let me know!
Cheers
Neville

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Re: SA&NT Squared Circles

Post by Greg Ioannou »

GraniteSA wrote:Hi

The following have one report of a square circle postmark.
I have never seen them or heard of anyone who has them.
They should exist BUT are they a figment of someones imagination?

Adelaide River
Apoinga
Eveleen

If you have seen them or better still have a scan let me know!
No such luck! As far as I know, there's also only one known strike of GN Railway and Mount Benson. True? Are there others?

Greg

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SC

Post by GraniteSA »

Hi

GN Rail I know of 2 and a vague recollection of a 3rd
Mt Benson only one

Adelaide River is a possible part strike of Adelaide Railway SC1
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Post by Greg Ioannou »

Here's one I just emailed Neville about, but maybe someone here knows the answer. Here's the postmark:

Image

The PARA is really clear. But what is it?

-- It doesn't match either type of Parachilna

-- No full stops, so not P. A. Railway

-- Letters too big for Parakylia

-- A and R wrong shapes for Parallina

-- letters too close together for Paratoo

So it is either Paracombe (but date is very late for that) or Parabba (though the date is early for that). Or something I don't know about. I don't have copies of either Paracombe or Parabba to compare with.

Anyone have comparison copies of Paracombe or Parabba?

(Yes, this is a crazy thing to be trying to figure out. But both those postmarks are really rare, so it is worth spending the time trying to identify my fragment.)

Greg
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Post by Philatelics (Australia) »

Hi Greg,

Hallmark auctions have a copy of the Paraba squared circle cancellation on a Postcard dated 1905 in their auction that closes tomorrow. The photograph is next to useless for identification, but am sure Neville would have taken a good close look at it, so he will probably be in a position to make further comment. If noone has a scan I do know the vendor well, so will see if I can obtain one from him. I think M.W. has seen a scan of this so he may be able to supply one as well.

Regards

Steve Meharry

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

Eeek! I've never heard of Hallmark auctions. Another one to watch.

Greg

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Post by Philatelics (Australia) »

Hi Greg,

Hallmark Auctions are part of Stewarts Stamp Shop here in Adelaide. Their auctions are a fairly modest black and white production, but with some SA Squared circles in most sales. Not sure if they send catalogues overseas, but e-mail the KevinBattersby at hallmark@senet.com.au if you would like to enquire further.

How's that for blatant promotion of a competitor.

Regards

Steve Meharry

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

Thanks, Steve. I hadn't realized until you commented on "a competitor" who you were. Thanks for all the great stamps I've bought from you! So when's your next auction and does it have any squared circles?

I've been looking at my own scan. The A at the top is right in the centre of the postmark. If the postmark is symmetrical (and most of them are) it is going to be parAbba, not parAcombe -- the C would be in the centre if it were Paracombe.

I'm tentatively putting it in Parabba. Which makes it the EKD (but still a year after the office opened, which is cool). But I'm very open to the inevitable corrections.

Greg

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Post by Philatelics (Australia) »

Hi Greg,

Our next Postal Auction will be held in March, 2008 and will have a pretty good range of squared circle cancellations. Included will be Kit Goldie's collection of South Australian and his extensive collection of Victorian postmarks. Not sure if you had ever had contact with Kit, who was a keen student of South Australia postmarks. Kit passed away earlier this year.

Regards

Steve Meharry

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

Cool. I'll be looking forward to it. (Please don't dump all the squared circles in one huge lot again, like you did in May!)

Greg

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Post by Philatelics (Australia) »

Greg,

I was a little incorrect in what I posted above, the Postmark on a Postcard coming up tomorrow is with a new previously unknown spelling Parraba and dated December 1905. (So a scan won't assist in identifying your postmark). It has a Chandada forwarding mark so would be an alternate spelling for Parabba which is is close to Chandada. Interestingly it is is addressed to Bool Lagoon, but did not receive a cancellation there. Have to say it sounds like a desirable postcard, though I haven't physically sighted it.

Let me know if you have an interest in it and I will see what I can do about slipping a bid in for you. smeharry@internode.on.net

Regards

Steve

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

Philatelics (Australia) wrote:Greg,

I was a little incorrect in what I posted above, the Postmark on a Postcard coming up tomorrow is with a new previously unknown spelling Parraba and dated December 1905. (So a scan won't assist in identifying your postmark). It has a Chandada forwarding mark so would be an alternate spelling for Parabba which is is close to Chandada. Interestingly it is is addressed to Bool Lagoon, but did not receive a cancellation there. Have to say it sounds like a desirable postcard, though I haven't physically sighted it.
Thanks, Steve. There are at least two previous reports of that spelling, one used in 1908 and the other in 1909. In fact, now that I look I can't find a report of the town name spelled correctly on a postmark! So my partial becomes a total mystery again.

I'm going to give the postcard a miss. Watching my pennies at the moment, waiting for customers to pay me.

Speaking of Bool Lagoon, here's my favourite eBay purchase of 2007:

Image

Image

Decent strike of a rare postmark, and I love the football cartoon.

Greg

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Post by Philatelics (Australia) »

A lovely Post Card, when you go to some of these places it adds even more intrigue to some of these postmarks, in many cases there is nothing or next to nothing at some of the scarcer postmark locations. I always think of the hardships people must have faced in the 19th century with the primitive communications and horse drawn transport, if you were fortunate enough to own a horse.

Bool Lagoon is a well known wetland Bird Sanctuary, but due to the ongoing drought here I suspect it is most likely somewhat on the dry side at present.

Steve

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Post by GlenStephens »

My strong feeling is there are FOUR letters after PARA - after carefully studying the symmetry of the cds

It is clearly a very heavily worn cds, and thus I doubt it is anything scarce.

My hunch for that reason is Paradise - a well used cds.

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

That would make me very very happy -- Paradise has no recorded squared circle.

And it is the only SA town starting with Para that had 8 letters.

Greg

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Post by GlenStephens »

How strange.

Well looking at it again it looks like I misjudged, as it can only have 3 more letters on right side, so that makes it a SEVEN letter name. 8)

The cancel is heavily worn so it was struck 10,000 times on SOMETHING, whatever the PO name was. :)

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Post by GlenStephens »

Greg Ioannou wrote:

The PARA is really clear. But what is it?

-- It doesn't match either type of Parachilna

-- No full stops, so not P. A. Railway

-- Letters too big for Parakylia

-- A and R wrong shapes for Parallina

-- letters too close together for Paratoo

So it is either Paracombe (but date is very late for that) or Parabba (though the date is early for that). Or something I don't know about. I don't have copies of either Paracombe or Parabba to compare with.

Anyone have comparison copies of Paracombe or Parabba?

(Yes, this is a crazy thing to be trying to figure out. But both those postmarks are really rare, so it is worth spending the time trying to identify my fragment.)
Near all the other names are way too long.

Certainly looks like a T as 5th letter .. are you certain it cannot be Paratoo?

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

Yeah, it has to be Paratoo. Here it is between two Paratoos:

Image

A in the same postion, P in the same position. Date within the known range. To me the R and A look closer together in the middle one, but the difference is only half a millimetre when I measure them -- little enough that it could be caused by wear on the hammer, overinking, or even a curve in the envelope it was on.

I think you've solved it. Thanks so much!

Greg

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Post by GlenStephens »

A perfect match I'd say. 8)

Man you must have some bulk sorted SC there to use as reference!

Glen

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

There are enough tiny differences that I'm not 100% convinced. For example, the S isn't quite the same shape, and the bar between P and S is a slightly different length.

Just wear on the hammer? Maybe.

Or just possibly two hammers. I'll watch for more Paratoos and see if there is a pattern to those small variances.

And yeah, I have a spare squared circle or two knocking around. But no Paracombe or Parraba.

By the way, if all known postmarks from Parabba are spelled Parraba, who is to say what the proper spelling was?

Thanks again,

Greg

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Post by ozstamps »

Greg I'd bet my house the left hand and centre stamp had the identical cancel.

Used earlier on the LH one tho, hence less wear:

Image

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

Almost certainly you're right. But look at the shape of the top of the S.

And look at where the small leg of the R meets the curve.

Probably wear, but not (to my mind) certain.

Cox and Overton thought these two were the same too:


Image

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para

Post by GraniteSA »

Tis Paratoo 1888 to 1910


Image
Cheers
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Post by ozstamps »

Neville .. what a great strike on the small size stamps!

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Parraba

Post by GraniteSA »

Image

Listed in the postal guides as Parabba, also a school
A Parraba exists in the same area.
Martin's book lists it as Parabba
The postmark book will go with Parraba
Isn't life simple :roll:
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Neville

Collector of Southern Fleurieu Peninsula postmarks and postcards etc.

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Greg Ioannou
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Post by Greg Ioannou »

Very nice!

So there are at least four strikes known of Parraba? 1905, 08, 09, plus the postcard? Or is the one you just showed the postcard?

Greg

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GraniteSA
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Parat2

Post by GraniteSA »

Its the books illustration overlayed on gregs stamp
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Neville

Collector of Southern Fleurieu Peninsula postmarks and postcards etc.

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GraniteSA
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Parraba

Post by GraniteSA »

2 known thats from the PC
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Neville

Collector of Southern Fleurieu Peninsula postmarks and postcards etc.

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Greg Ioannou
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Post by Greg Ioannou »

I'm sure there's a 1908 and a 1909 -- three known.

Greg

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