Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquidation

News items. General trends, new issues, new policies etc. **Whatever** you like. WORLDWIDE. Start a new thread on your question. Please do not discuss ebay in THIS forum as we have a separate and popular Forum for that discussion.

Moderator: Volunteer Moderator Team

Post Reply
User avatar
Paul Peters
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 140
Joined: 08 Feb 2016 22:05
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

Hi Retsam I have emailed you.....I invite anyone to email me via the email icon at the foot. Or they can phone me in NZ landline 64-6-7580612.

User avatar
David Benson
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 4938
Joined: 29 May 2007 09:05
Location: Sydney

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by David Benson »

Paul,

a technical question,

Would material that is still on hand that has been sold but not yet paid be classified as sold or unsold. I doubt that Postal Bidders from the last sale would have paid for their lots and even if they had will the material be despatched,

David B.

User avatar
Paul Peters
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 140
Joined: 08 Feb 2016 22:05
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

A winning bid is a contract to buy. I imagine they would be billed and required to pay and get the lot.

User avatar
GlenStephens
I was online for Post Number 4 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 4 MILLION!
Posts: 21731
Joined: 06 Sep 2005 19:46
Location: Sunny Sydney .... well Castlecrag to be precise.
Contact:

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by GlenStephens »

Retsam1 wrote:
This was basically my first attempt to sell some stamps using an auction house, and I lost 75% of my lots down the drain.

I know other vendors have lost a lot more and this is a terrible state of affairs.

Last time I will ever use an auction house to sell anything
Sad to hear this happened on your first outing. A real shame. Especially seeing there are many options when selling.

I get mailed 100s of sendings a year for this exact reason. Fair, same day cash payment offer for THE LOT up to $1 million suits most folks. If the offer is not suitable, you can say "no thanks" and the stamps are also returned same day.

No unsold lots hassles, no seller fees, no GST deducted on top of seller fees, no buyers fees seeing 20%-25% more of your stamp values vanish, no lot fees, no 6 month delay, no raised blood pressure, and no chance the liquidators will ever descend on me for owing a million bucks to trusting collectors. :idea: :idea: :idea:

http://www.glenstephens.com/buying.html
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

User avatar
Retsam1
Well on the way to 25 post Senior Member
Well on the way to 25 post Senior Member
Posts: 12
Joined: 30 Apr 2014 22:17
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Retsam1 »

Yes one can always say that in hindsight. No need to rub it in.

It could happen to anyone and it may just be the tip of the iceberg of the general state of the hobby/industry. Who knows which auction house or business is next?

Regarding the earlier question, all lots sold will need to be paid for and that money will end up with the liquidators. If they do not get paid, then legal proceedings will begin initiated by the liquidators.

I have been thinking if this was a real estate agent and you sign up with them to sell your property and it sold before they went into liquidation, does that mean your money is lost also???

User avatar
Paul Peters
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 140
Joined: 08 Feb 2016 22:05
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

Apparently stamp auctioneers in Oz and probably NZ are not governed by escrow account laws. I stand to be corrected.

User avatar
ChrisGray
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
Posts: 1037
Joined: 21 Mar 2012 19:12
Location: Tweed Shire, Australia

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by ChrisGray »

In regards to the slow payments - from what I've read elsewhere on these forums, isn't slow payment to the vendor from the auction house the norm?

If so, that should give vendors pause as to the financial state of the other auction houses, considering the standing Velvet enjoyed up until the 15th.

User avatar
GlenStephens
I was online for Post Number 4 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 4 MILLION!
Posts: 21731
Joined: 06 Sep 2005 19:46
Location: Sunny Sydney .... well Castlecrag to be precise.
Contact:

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by GlenStephens »

Retsam1 wrote:
Who knows which auction house or business is next?
None hopefully, but history shows that will be wrong, sadly.

I can only speak for myself and have millions in equity, but ZERO debts or loans or liabilities so it will not be me, that much is for sure. And that was my sole point.

All other selling options have a Lottery element to them. Some folks are gamblers in life. Roll the dice - and pray. Whatever floats your boat. :mrgreen:
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

User avatar
Lakatoi 4
Founder Member Joined April 2007
Founder Member Joined April 2007
Posts: 21520
Joined: 19 Apr 2007 20:41
Location: First star on the right then straight on till morning ...

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Lakatoi 4 »

ChrisGray wrote:In regards to the slow payments - from what I've read elsewhere on these forums, isn't slow payment to the vendor from the auction house the norm?
6 weeks to 8 weeks is pretty standard in Australia except for one auction house that pays vendors in 3 weeks.
Tony
"A cancelled stamp tells part of the story, a cover tells it all"

User avatar
Paul Peters
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 140
Joined: 08 Feb 2016 22:05
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

As a journalist I advised the Sydney Morning Herald of this as a potential business story ... they do not seem interested.

....but then, Fairfax do not seem much interested in news these days that requires work to get - just celeb click bait ... however if a celeb client was involved it might be different.

User avatar
doc
I was online for our Birthday Number 3!
I was online for our Birthday Number 3!
Posts: 168
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 19:15
Location: South Pacific

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by doc »

Paul Peters wrote:... however if a celeb client was involved it might be different.
A dealer told me Sir Ronald Brierley lost $150,000 or so - not sure if they is right? Debtor lists are public record I assume, and if so they can readily confirm it.

Brierley was Governor of The Reserve Bank Of New Zealand, and is enormously well known in the business world.

Celebrity enough perhaps?

User avatar
Paul Peters
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 140
Joined: 08 Feb 2016 22:05
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

Sir Ron was not governor of the bank; he is/was a high profile investor and well known as you say...Fairfax does what it does....just look at stuff NZ web site...news 'lite', bonking updates and celeb tv crap.

User avatar
GJ50
Sadly departed RIP. Greatly missed here
Sadly departed RIP.  Greatly missed here
Posts: 3101
Joined: 14 Jul 2007 14:17
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by GJ50 »

Paul Peters wrote:As a journalist I advised the Sydney Morning Herald of this as a potential business story ... they do not seem interested.

....but then, Fairfax do not seem much interested in news these days that requires work to get - just celeb click bait ... however if a celeb client was involved it might be different.
Fairfax journos went on strike last Thursday. May be why you had no interest.

They are sacking over 200 of them I read.

GJ50
NZ2020 FIAP INTERNATIONAL STAMP EXHIBITION
Auckland
March 19 to 22, 2020

User avatar
Paul Peters
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 140
Joined: 08 Feb 2016 22:05
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

Yes several Fairfax friends are losing their jobs. The message was delivered to a news exec.

I was editor of two local papers in NZ - decided to move on last August while young enough to pursue other interests like travel.

Sorry time for friends and colleagues...some still waiting anxiously.

The focus of news is switching to what gets hits and sells ads. It is a business and the light and the salacious snares readers.....and therefore ads can build round it. Way it is.

User avatar
BigSaint
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 63187
Joined: 16 Nov 2012 11:26
Location: Cheltenham, Australia

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by BigSaint »

Apparently the Fairfax people are not as lucky as someone else who appears to have fallen on his feet :)
Specialist Collector of World Horse Racing Covers, Melbourne Cup & Kentucky Derby, & JFK fdcs.

User avatar
Paul Peters
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 140
Joined: 08 Feb 2016 22:05
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

To Big Saint, Indeed and I have fallen on my backside. It isnt me who has landed on my feet. I worked for Fairfax and know full well how trying the past NINE years have been with trims, cuts and changes every year...I left to do other things at 60 as I saw too many friends die young and so forth and thought I needed to wake up and smell the roses. I know Fairfax has to make changes in a declining print environment but it is taking quite a toll on staff in terms of health and morale....
For me losing more than 40k sure isn't landing one one's feet. I am not wealthy.
Last edited by Paul Peters on 22 Mar 2016 14:20, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Paul Peters
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 140
Joined: 08 Feb 2016 22:05
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

Creditor's report states Jurd met the liquidator on March 7 to discuss the financial position of the company.
Wonder what was said?
Yet the March 13 auction went ahead with the million dollar hole there already.
And he firm is wound up on March 14.
The March 13 auction should be voided. In my view. No doubt some legal loophole.

User avatar
ChrisGray
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
Posts: 1037
Joined: 21 Mar 2012 19:12
Location: Tweed Shire, Australia

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by ChrisGray »

Hard to believe they don't minute the meetings?

Also, will a mod please correct the title of the thread to Velvet Collectables, so that vendors/clients searching online will be able to find this thread easier. Not everybody is aware of this website.

Off on a tangent; for the current state of journalism, you could see the first cracks on television here in Australia. The national broadcaster still produces great content, yet more than a decade ago the networks gave up in favour of whatever the hell they call the advertorial rubbish peddled on A Current Affair and the like. Nobody wants to pay for quality research and investigative journalism. They want to know what a talentless celebrity is eating for breakfast, or some half-truth headline to make people sit through an ad break. /rant

The last season of The Wire covers the beginning of the end of journalism perfectly.
Last edited by mcgooley on 22 Mar 2016 17:29, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Amended topic heading as per request

User avatar
Tassie_Stamps
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
Posts: 9697
Joined: 06 Oct 2007 21:19
Location: Tasmania

Re: Velvet Collections Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Tassie_Stamps »

Interesting to note he is still a member of APTA. :shock:

User avatar
Paul Peters
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 140
Joined: 08 Feb 2016 22:05
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

It is a week since APTA admin officer sent a statement to me saying she would ask the committee about 'disciplining' him for sending me a bouncing cheque for 6000....ye gods there is more at stake than that....

They seem reluctant to move...guess it is all very matey.

APTA issued me with a waffly statement of a gazilllion words mid- Feb about how he intended to pay and wanted to maintain his reputation.

I was to get 6000k on Feb 29 (bounce) and a TT of 9k on March 14 ON that date....never happened etc.

He was insolvent and bs-ing.

I have supplied all relevant material to the liquidator.

This actually taints SG as online material about this Velvet outfit always cites SG origins in its pitch for business. I have emailed SG about that.
Last edited by Paul Peters on 22 Mar 2016 17:49, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Tassie_Stamps
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 3 MILLION!
Posts: 9697
Joined: 06 Oct 2007 21:19
Location: Tasmania

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Tassie_Stamps »

Paul Peters wrote:It is a week since APTA admin officer sent a statement to me saying she would ask the committee about 'disciplining' him
He was still on that committee at the time, says it all really.....

It seems he is no longer the treasurer of APTA.

User avatar
Paul Peters
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 140
Joined: 08 Feb 2016 22:05
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

I must stress I am not bagging the SMH reporters....what they do is directed by the editors, news eds, news directors etc...the main job losses are subs on the print side....but there are as i understand it plans to convert the Herald and the Age to online news services only.

No subs.

The focus, though, is on what will get online 'hits'. And they have surveys to back what I got told from HQ in NZ only half jokingly that the benchmark story is Kim Kardashian's bum.

User avatar
ewen s
5000 Great Posts - WHAT a Milestone!
5000 Great Posts - WHAT a Milestone!
Posts: 6756
Joined: 24 May 2008 18:17
Location: Tahunanui, New Zealand

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by ewen s »

Paul Peters wrote:It is a week since APTA admin officer sent a statement to me saying she would ask the committee about 'disciplining' him for sending me a bouncing cheque for 6000....ye gods there is more at stake than that....

They seem reluctant to move...guess it is all very matey.
They are probably overly worried about repercussions if wrongly expelled.

In the real world you'd invite the bloke in, ask him if it was true, then demand his resignation. No discipline or expelling required.

User avatar
Michael Eastick
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 524
Joined: 16 May 2007 22:00
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Michael Eastick »

This statement is not made to support any of the parties involved.

I am not an APTA member but have some experience in these matters as I spent over 4 years as its President and had to deal with not dissimilar matters.

There are very specific processes that APTA has to follow in these situations, sometimes they can be fast as some people want, sometimes they take longer than people would hope, but they must be followed for due process to occur.

It must also be remembered that the committee are volunteers and have limited time from their own businesses to deal with issues such as this.
Michael Eastick & Associates P/L -Suite 20-79 Mahoneys Road, Forest Hill, Vic 3131, Australia.
03 9894 8561 - http://www.michaeleastick.com

User avatar
The Pom
I was online for Post Number 4 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 4 MILLION!
Posts: 11281
Joined: 02 May 2007 08:08
Location: Great Britain

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by The Pom »

Sounds like the APTA disciplinary process needs bringing into the 21st Century.
Always on the lookout for Australian pre decimal First Day Covers.

User avatar
Michael Eastick
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 524
Joined: 16 May 2007 22:00
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Michael Eastick »

The Pom wrote:Sounds like the APTA disciplinary process needs bringing into the 21st Century.
Must say that is a totally ill informed and badly thought out comment.

Please read an associations rules and regulations before making sweeping statements like that, just because one would like things to happen in 5 seconds flat does not mean legally that they can.
Michael Eastick & Associates P/L -Suite 20-79 Mahoneys Road, Forest Hill, Vic 3131, Australia.
03 9894 8561 - http://www.michaeleastick.com

User avatar
kuikka
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18930
Joined: 18 Oct 2014 03:17
Location: Tampere, Finland

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by kuikka »

I would see that there would be two ways to speed it up (I have some experience on organizations and believe it would be possible in Finland) one would be that the president would be allowed to suspend a member until next meeting that can handle the issue if the member doesn't disagree.

Other option would be that the president would be allowed to suspend the member until next relevant meeting if some specifically listed conditions are met. The list could include such things as the person is under criminal investigation, liquation of their business etc.

These must be spelled out in the rules and would be temporary measures that are easy to undo if found necessary. Fast expelling of members would be impossible.

Kimmo
Last edited by Global Administrator on 22 Mar 2016 20:07, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added paragraphs and spacing, which makes wordy posts far easier to read on Bulletin Boards!

User avatar
traralgon3844
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 10739
Joined: 13 Mar 2009 15:30
Location: Traralgon, Australia

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by traralgon3844 »

Creditors Meeting is set for Thursday.

https://insolvencynotices.asic.gov.au/browsesearch-notices/n ... a00ea21467

Image

Item 6 of the agenda is rather worrying.
:shock:
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.

User avatar
Allanswood
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 15712
Joined: 02 Dec 2009 11:59
Location: Goulburn NSW Australia

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Allanswood »

I think point 6 would relate to the having to keep everything for up to 7 years in storage for tax purposes. But their would be nothing left to check or audit once the liquidators have finished.
Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
Member of the S.T.A.M.P Club for Slightly Twisted And Mad Philatelists - Motto: "Bring back the lick!"

User avatar
Michael Eastick
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 524
Joined: 16 May 2007 22:00
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Michael Eastick »

Not possible under their current Rules, unless they have been changed in the last few years which I do not think they would have been.

There are also very specific procedures for when a member has a complaint against them that is outstanding. I will not go into them in depth here but any expulsion/resignation must follow a certain procedure - a procedure designed to protect all parties (including the person lodging the original complaint).

There are also certain legalities that must be met by the various parties, when followed they protect the appropriate parties as they should.

Looping a rope over the closest tree and stringing them up high may have worked a 100 years ago but
things have to happen (legally, morally and ethically) a bit different these days.

Once again this is not being stated to support any of the parties involved apart from the one that is being wrongly stated to have done nothing.
Michael Eastick & Associates P/L -Suite 20-79 Mahoneys Road, Forest Hill, Vic 3131, Australia.
03 9894 8561 - http://www.michaeleastick.com

User avatar
furballx
GOLD Star Super Posting Stampboarder!
GOLD Star Super Posting Stampboarder!
Posts: 256
Joined: 01 Jan 2014 20:06
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by furballx »

I am not a legal practitioner, but I have seen a somewhat similar situation before (where a retailer took payments from buyers on items knowing full well that they were never going to pass the payments on to the wholesaler to procure the items for supply to the buyers).

If Velvet conducted an auction knowing that they could not make the payments for the items then my understanding is that the directors MAY (under the right circumstances) be held personally responsible for making good the bad faith sales.

If it were me I would be keen to seek legal advise to that end, but I do understand that a) this may be a costly avenue to pursue and b) there many not be any personal assets held by the director to make good the payment.

The previous case I saw was in Victoria and was resolved as part of the estate of a deceased director. From memory part of the payment (up to $8000AU or so) was secured through VCAT (Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal) with the remainder as part of a Civil action.

All of this is general observation but a legal eagle might know fairly quickly if it is worth a shot.

User avatar
ebayer
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 136
Joined: 23 Feb 2011 22:22
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by ebayer »

furballx - the reality is that this outfit appears to be a MILLION DOLLARS in the hole. Jurd doubtless has little or no assets of value.

We can be pretty sure he was paying himself regularly though. With cheques that did NOT bounce.

ASIC can come down on him like a ton of bricks, and ban him and other Directors for 5 or 10 years if they wish. APTA can and likely will wipe him, for breaching many of their "Code Of Ethics" - indeed doubtless some other APTA members are also owed monies, as dealer vendor rates were low.

Sadly all that generates no real $$$ return for vendors owed money, and generates $100,000s in receiver/insolvency fees.

ASIC can if they wish probably pursue civil action, and ask for a prison term if there is evidence of a long period of insolvent trading. That very rightfully is heavily frowned upon. If there indeed is a Million Bucks missing, that might well occur if enough noises are made to ASIC.

User avatar
Raz
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
Posts: 1791
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 04:03
Location: Sutherland Shire, Australia.

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Raz »

Instead of just letting it go and getting on with our lives, a reasonable alternative to look into may be all of the vendors who are owed money getting a class action together so that any guilty parties will be hounded until forever and not be able to set up a company when their (presumed) bankruptcy expires.

In the digital age it is not as easy as it used to be to hide income and spending. To carry large amounts of cash overseas these days can make you a target. In Australia we are digitally monitored to a large degree, esp for spending habits.

Perhaps at the meeting on Tuesday someone can see if their is a collective wish to hire a specialist class action firm that takes on the case on a No win/no fee or percentage basis.

Pro Bono would be even better. I will e-mail some legal talents I have known and see what they have to say.

I received my list of creditors today but haven't read it yet.

User avatar
furballx
GOLD Star Super Posting Stampboarder!
GOLD Star Super Posting Stampboarder!
Posts: 256
Joined: 01 Jan 2014 20:06
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by furballx »

ebayer wrote:furballx - the reality is that this outfit appears to be a MILLION DOLLARS in the hole. Jurd doubtless has little or no assets of value.

We can be pretty sure he was paying himself regularly though. With cheques that did NOT bounce.

ASIC can come down on him like a ton of bricks, and ban him and other Directors for 5 or 10 years if they wish. APTA can and likely will wipe him, for breaching many of their "Code Of Ethics" - indeed doubtless some other APTA members are also owed monies, as dealer vendor rates were low.

Sadly all that generates no real $$$ return for vendors owed money, and generates $100,000s in receiver/insolvency fees.

ASIC can if they wish probably pursue civil action, and ask for a prison term if there is evidence of a long period of insolvent trading. That very rightfully is heavily frowned upon. If there indeed is a Million Bucks missing, that might well occur if enough noises are made to ASIC.
All understood. However, what I was getting at is that under certain circumstances I believe that it MAY be possible to go for the personal assets of the director who has acted fraudulently or outside of company law (if that is the case here). This is a separate action as regards claims as an unsecured creditor of the business. No idea if it applies here, but worth asking the question. See the post from Raz above and you see what I am getting at.

User avatar
BigSaint
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 63187
Joined: 16 Nov 2012 11:26
Location: Cheltenham, Australia

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by BigSaint »

Furballx

See my post second from top of page 2 of this thread.

Brad :)
BigSaint wrote:Insolvent trading is knowing that you can't pay your liabilities but continuing to incur debt knowing you can't pay those liabilities.

The fact that Peter has been owed since June 2015 is evidence of that. Dishonoured cheques is another. Unpaid PAYG tax (previously known as group tax), unpaid GST & unpaid superannuation are others.

When the liquidator produces his Statement of Affairs, it would seem likely that the ATO & Employee Super Funds will be high on the list.

The ATO may issue director penalty notices which may make the directors personally liable for the PAYG tax. After the company has been liquidated the liquidator will report to ASIC whether there has been insolvent trading.

If there has, it means the Directors can be held personally responsible for the debts of the company.

It is then up to ASIC to decide whether the directors should be be pursued for the debts of the company. Unfortunately this does not have a lot of success as the directors tend to be bankrupts.

So this is a long way down the track as these things take time & take, as Glen says, a lot of Liquidators fees.

Brad
Specialist Collector of World Horse Racing Covers, Melbourne Cup & Kentucky Derby, & JFK fdcs.

User avatar
DarrenK
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2516
Joined: 18 May 2007 13:47
Location: Kilmore Victoria Australia

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by DarrenK »

Having been an unsecured creditor when one of my major suppliers went under I followed the money trail very closely. They went under to the tune of $35 million. The assets that the company still held in their warehouses and manufacturing facilities were liquidated and the Administrators kept working and charging staggering amounts until there was no more saleable items at which point they closed the books.

Partners were charged out at $850/hour while qualified non partners were $500/hour. The lowest paid people that were cataloguing and collecting data were charged at $125/hour. It's a lot like Africa. An elephant goes down and it's a free for all to gorge as much as you can before the carcass is gone. These guys bleed what they can while they know they can get money (as they get first call on the proceeds from what I saw) and when there is no more to be had, they leave.

The outcome was we were paid cents in the dollar and all warranty issues were left to us to sort out with our clients. I had about 8 reports that ran into 40 to 50 pages sent to me during the process as all other creditors did. There is only one winner in these events.

When the liquidators are finished they have produced reports for submission to the tax office and once these are accepted and signed off the books can be destroyed. They have to be signed of by an auditor and the way I understand it that is the end of the company and the end of any chance to recoup money.

Suing the directors personally is the only other option but having tried that once I recommend a lot of research first. I thought the guy I was suing had a local farm as well as his family home in Brighton. Nope. Both in other names and his $2 company had no assets, only liabilities. He declared himself bankrupt while driving around in his "wife's" Mercedes. An expensive lesson for me and several others.
Always interested in trading German material especially post war period.

User avatar
furballx
GOLD Star Super Posting Stampboarder!
GOLD Star Super Posting Stampboarder!
Posts: 256
Joined: 01 Jan 2014 20:06
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by furballx »

BigSaint wrote:Furballx

See my post second from top of page 2 of this thread.

Brad :)
BigSaint wrote:Insolvent trading is knowing that you can't pay your liabilities but continuing to incur debt knowing you can't pay those liabilities.

The fact that Peter has been owed since June 2015 is evidence of that. Dishonoured cheques is another. Unpaid PAYG tax (previously known as group tax), unpaid GST & unpaid superannuation are others.

When the liquidator produces his Statement of Affairs, it would seem likely that the ATO & Employee Super Funds will be high on the list.

The ATO may issue director penalty notices which may make the directors personally liable for the PAYG tax. After the company has been liquidated the liquidator will report to ASIC whether there has been insolvent trading.

If there has, it means the Directors can be held personally responsible for the debts of the company.

It is then up to ASIC to decide whether the directors should be be pursued for the debts of the company. Unfortunately this does not have a lot of success as the directors tend to be bankrupts.

So this is a long way down the track as these things take time & take, as Glen says, a lot of Liquidators fees.

Brad
Ah yes, what Brad said :)

User avatar
RodT
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
AQUA Shooting Star Board ADDICT!
Posts: 602
Joined: 17 Jan 2009 16:16
Location: Devonport, Tasmania, Australia
Contact:

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by RodT »

I'm betting Harri never got his money, despite the assurance given here by Jurd.
IPDA Webmaster. Visit KoalaStamps for quality Oceania, Asia and Europe sets and singles.

User avatar
aethelwulf
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 15835
Joined: 13 Jun 2009 01:17
Location: Fragrant Harbour, Hong Kong

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by aethelwulf »

Tassie_Stamps wrote:It seems he is no longer the treasurer of APTA.
Would be ironic to say the least if they did keep him as treasurer of all things. :? :?
Collecting Mongolia; Thailand; Indo-China; Mourning Covers; OHMS.

User avatar
chrisb
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 233
Joined: 09 Dec 2013 02:44
Location: Port Elizabeth, South Africa

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by chrisb »

I have a fairly decent collection of Roos and Heads. Australia is a good place to dispose. Do any stampboarders know whether or not any Australian auction houses keep proper trust accounts for the sellers proceeds?

User avatar
mobbor
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 10645
Joined: 24 Jun 2007 19:10
Location: Northern N.S.W.

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by mobbor »

I am saddened to read about this, as going back over 20 years and 3 different owners, all my best purchases came from this auction house, with never any problems.

However, over the last couple of years, their auctions have been much, much smaller, even though there was precious little competition in Sydney.
mobbor

User avatar
Paul Peters
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 140
Joined: 08 Feb 2016 22:05
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

There are emails and calls and theories where the money went.

When I submit material for auction I do not want to be taking a gamble on the outcome so to speak.

I have a commercial lawyer who advised me pursuing my debt legally would be throwing good money after bad. There is no money it seems as, yes, the gap is about $1m, and if the pursued person has also used up or blown their own assets then even ASIC's action will obtain nothing but a prosecution.

If monies can be traced well, maybe, some can be recovered to pay the liquidators and the priority creditors.

I have spoken with the liquidator about some of the theories. Proving anything is another matter...we need to see what explanations are provided and what large holes in the accounts have no satisfactory explanation.

Holding an auction on March 13 after already meeting with the liquidators on March 7 surely points to an offence. But maybe not....laws have loopholes.

User avatar
BigSaint
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 63187
Joined: 16 Nov 2012 11:26
Location: Cheltenham, Australia

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by BigSaint »

RodT wrote:I'm betting Harri never got his money, despite the assurance given here by Jurd.
If Harri did receive his money (within 6 months of the commencement of the liquidation), the liquidator can claw it back as a "preferential" payment. This applies equally to Paul's cheque if indeed it did not bounce & to anyone else who may have received money.

Harri if or when asked by the liquidator needs to say "I did not know that Velvet Auctions was in financial trouble, Mr Jurd never told me it was".

I would have liked to be a fly on the wall at that meeting a week earlier when the subject of "Do I hold this auction next week?" was discussed. How low can you go to sell off peoples goods knowing they would never see the money, as there is NO TRUST ACCOUNT to park the money in to protect it for the vendors.

The auction should either have been cancelled or the liquidator been appointed prior to the auction. If he had been the payments to vendors from the last auction would have been guaranteed by the liquidator. But then VA's assets would have been $170,000 less..

The liquidator needs to be asked at the upcoming creditors meeting why the auction went ahead & if it had to go ahead why wasn't the liquidator appointed before the auction? :evil:
Specialist Collector of World Horse Racing Covers, Melbourne Cup & Kentucky Derby, & JFK fdcs.

User avatar
Paul Peters
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 140
Joined: 08 Feb 2016 22:05
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

Holding the auction created more than enough to pay the windup costs and something extra. Without the sale there was very little. We need to know what happened at March 7 meeting. The liquidators are professionals with integrity.
Last edited by Paul Peters on 23 Mar 2016 08:44, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
kuikka
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18930
Joined: 18 Oct 2014 03:17
Location: Tampere, Finland

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by kuikka »

If liquidator was aware of the situation and let the auction go ahead to have enough money in the company to pay his bills, that makes him part of conspiracy and liable for the losses of the vendors in the last auction.

In that case I think the money could be demanded from him. As I would expect liquidators not to be stupid I would expect them stay away from illegal activities.

So, I think they didn't allow the auction to go on only to have more money in the company.

Kimmo
Last edited by Global Administrator on 23 Mar 2016 11:56, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added paragraphs and spacing, which makes wordy posts far easier to read on Bulletin Boards!

User avatar
BigSaint
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 63187
Joined: 16 Nov 2012 11:26
Location: Cheltenham, Australia

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by BigSaint »

I have been speaking to a liquidator friend of mine. I have been advised there is an issue with the March 7 meeting with the liquidator, and the subsequent stamp auction.

Those who have sums owed to them, from the last auction, need to write to the liquidator (preferably on a solicitors letterhead - a top end of town one - I can give you a name but she is expensive - email me via the Board) and tell the liquidator he has no right to touch your money from the last sale.

From what I am told there is a recent case in NSW that deals with a situation which is somewhat similar and the finding was against the Liquidator. :twisted:

Sorry I can't say any more than this as I am not a legal practitioner, and do not want to be seen as giving legal advice.

Do not waste any time in taking this action.

Brad :)
Specialist Collector of World Horse Racing Covers, Melbourne Cup & Kentucky Derby, & JFK fdcs.

User avatar
Paul Peters
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 140
Joined: 08 Feb 2016 22:05
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

I have explained the sequence of meetings to my lawyer, who specialises in commercial law, and am awaiting his advice.

User avatar
doc
I was online for our Birthday Number 3!
I was online for our Birthday Number 3!
Posts: 168
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 19:15
Location: South Pacific

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by doc »

All this is very, very sad for all concerned.

However, I would like to know what has happened to the staff at Velvet Collectables. It cannot be very pleasant for them.

Does anyone know and if so can they please advise.

Thank you.

David.
Thank for reading - doc

User avatar
kuikka
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18930
Joined: 18 Oct 2014 03:17
Location: Tampere, Finland

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by kuikka »

If the vendors of the last auction are paid in full, then allowing the auction to go on is beneficial to everyone, as it generates revenue for the liquidified company and there is more money to pay for everyone who is owed (buyer's and seller's fees).

Kimmo

User avatar
Paul Peters
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 140
Joined: 08 Feb 2016 22:05
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand

Re: Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquida

Post by Paul Peters »

Kimmo,

The auction was held on a Sunday March 13; the firm went into liquidation on the 14th, the Monday.
There was a meeting on March 7.

The auction proceeds may go into the firm's assets as a whole like all the other sales BUT there is a chance that the March 13 auction may be treated differently given the timing. I will leave it at that on this Board.

I suggest vendors email the liquidator as I did for clarification of what happened on March 7 and ask why the sale went ahead. I got an email back explaining the sequence. It is better to come from the liquidator than second and third hand via me.

I hope Thursday's creditors' meeting leads to a statement that paints a clearer direction once some facts are established.

Post Reply

Return to “Discuss stamps - and *anything* at ALL happening with stamps”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: honza, pertinax, Stamp collector and 9 guests