Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Dhanavantari »

Dhanavantari wrote:There is no mention of a lighter yellow, just a Yellow and Yellow ochre. I understand the dilemma. I will have to submit this specimen for a BPA opinion.
Then perhaps I will pause.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mukulgarga »

Dhanavantari wrote:There is no mention of a lighter yellow, just a Yellow and Yellow ochre. I understand the dilemma. I will have to submit this specimen for a BPA opinion.
Good idea. When you get the BPA certificate kindly do let us know.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mukulgarga »

Some pretty hilarious listings from the seller eddis.h. :o
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Dhanavantari »

Having read S&M, Masson and Kashmir stamps, I understand that:

1) Reprints of Circulars in Oil on ELP do not exist. They may on native laid, but not ELP.

2) Further if it is a genuine looking print (satisfying all print character and appearance criteria to rule out Missing dies and or forged prints) on ELP in Slate blue, it is likely to be genuine and lastly...

3) ELP was the only known paper in J&K issues that had watermarks.

If these interpretations are right, then a Slate blue on ELP with a watermark must be genuine.

Can the group confirm if I am on the right track.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by peterh »

I wonder if a definitive answer to this will ever be agreed upon by everyone.

This is from the Kashmirstamps site:

"Jammu had been an enthusiastic convert to a variety of European laid paper that never caught on at Srinagar. The oilcolor productions on that paper at Jammu that never saw postal employ make for an important category of non-postal. The trouble is that some types are exceedingly rare, and we do not know whether the postally-used copies were just lost to philately. It is also possible that laid paper reprints (properly so-called) originated at Jammu between spring 1878 (the advent date of the New Rectangulars) and spring 1881 (the likely date of transfer of the dies to Srinagar.) One of the traditional observances of our subject is that there are “no reprints on European laid paper.” That may be a zealous over-application of the probably correct notion that there were no reprints produced on European laid papers at Srinagar."

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Dhanavantari »

If it is accepted then that reprints on ELP could originate from Jammu, how do we detect them?

Are the other observations right re: watermarks etc.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mukulgarga »

del
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Dhanavantari »

mukulgarga wrote:del
Sorry ! I did not understand (del) Perhaps I am new to terminology frequently used here.

Thanks.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mukulgarga »

Regarding this listing
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114139168315?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

ImageImage

On being informed to the seller that the paper in question is not a European Laid paper but simply native paper hence a reprint, instead of changing the description of the listing his reply came as follows....

"Hi Mukul,
Thanks for the update, always good to have foresight.
Warm regards,
Hugh"

After all who wants to get his £1300 listing converted to £0 listing. :lol:
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mukulgarga »

Dhanavantari wrote:
mukulgarga wrote:del
Sorry ! I did not understand (del) Perhaps I am new to terminology frequently used here.

Thanks.
K@
As we can only edit and not remove the post once posted, the only way is to type del (delete) and leave it like that.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Dhanavantari »

Thanks
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by psphani »

mukulgarga wrote:Regarding this listing
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114139168315?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

ImageImage

On being informed to the seller that the paper in question is not a European Laid paper but simply native paper hence a reprint, instead of changing the description of the listing his reply came as follows....

"Hi Mukul,
Thanks for the update, always good to have foresight.
Warm regards,
Hugh"

After all who wants to get his £1300 listing converted to £0 listing. :lol:
After a bid has been made, the seller cannot change the original listing title, description, photos, or other details such as the shipping information.

You can Add to the item description and Add photos. The newly added item description will show up as an addition.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by psphani »

An addition to my Soruth collection, 8 Annas. Its known and reported but seldom seen. Not much information is known about this , i.e. is it a Reprint or Trial?. It's on thin white wove and the paper is very different from the known official reprints.

Image

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by medicoirfan »

psphani wrote:An addition to my Soruth collection, 8 Annas. Its known and reported but seldom seen. Not much information is known about this , i.e. is it a Reprint or Trial?. It's on thin white wove and the paper is very different from the known official reprints.

Image
Sir, is their any article regarding this stamp ? It's looking very tempting.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by mukulgarga »

Faulty listing again.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/J-amp-K-STAMP-1879-SG-124-1-2a-RE ... true&rt=nc

ImageImage

This I guess is SG102 CV £21. In the definitive issues the paper is so thin that the print always shows up on the back side.
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Hyderabadi »

This thread has been hijacked by the J&K specialists :D :lol: just kidding.

Dhanvantari- welcome and curious if you only collect the very complex like J&K or other states too? Please could we request you post questions you have on other states if possible to the resident gurus here for the benefit of all newbies
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by psphani »

medicoirfan wrote:
psphani wrote:An addition to my Soruth collection, 8 Annas. Its known and reported but seldom seen. Not much information is known about this , i.e. is it a Reprint or Trial?. It's on thin white wove and the paper is very different from the known official reprints.

Image
Sir, is their any article regarding this stamp ? It's looking very tempting.
A snippet in the PJI, May 1943 mentions about the 8 Annas. It says
"Mr R.F.Stoney has shown us the type-set Soruth stamp illustrated in this number". The description is slightly incorrect as it says accents over the second letters in the top and bottom lines and also says signs on perforation. No mention about the paper type.

Next this is also mentioned by L.E.Dawson in the Collector's Club Philatelist, Vol 35 , No III, 1955 - his copy is on White laid paper. The same article was referred by Ron Wood/Meher for the Soruth handbook and thus mentions the same.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Dhanavantari »

Here I have a 2A Service on Vertically laid white paper (1878) I believe SG O4 sheet.

There appears to be crown watermark on the sheet. I know S&M mention watermarks on Laid paper, but this watermark is perhaps a new or variation of the one shown by S&M.

Image
Image

What are the Xperts thinking?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by RoCe »

J&K SG O4 sheet doesn’t have any rivets. It looks to me that you are right, but post scan of the front side please.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Dhanavantari »

RoCe wrote:J&K SG O4 sheet doesn’t have any rivets. It looks to me that you are right, but post scan of the front side please.
Image
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Dhanavantari »

Dhanavantari wrote:
There appears to be crown watermark on the sheet. I know S&M mention watermarks on Laid paper, but this watermark is perhaps a new or variation of the one shown by S&M.

Image

What are the Xperts thinking?
S&M does mention an oval surmounted by head and shoulders of a lion holding up a flag. Could this be the two lions holding up a flag?
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by medicoirfan »

psphani wrote:
medicoirfan wrote:
psphani wrote:An addition to my Soruth collection, 8 Annas. Its known and reported but seldom seen. Not much information is known about this , i.e. is it a Reprint or Trial?. It's on thin white wove and the paper is very different from the known official reprints.

Image
Sir, is their any article regarding this stamp ? It's looking very tempting.
A snippet in the PJI, May 1943 mentions about the 8 Annas. It says
"Mr R.F.Stoney has shown us the type-set Soruth stamp illustrated in this number". The description is slightly incorrect as it says accents over the second letters in the top and bottom lines and also says signs on perforation. No mention about the paper type.

Next this is also mentioned by L.E.Dawson in the Collector's Club Philatelist, Vol 35 , No III, 1955 - his copy is on White laid paper. The same article was referred by Ron Wood/Meher for the Soruth handbook and thus mentions the same.
Ok, I got it Psphani....Thank u so much
One more thing,,,,, have u seen a complete sheet of soruth typeset issue ?....I mean a full complete sheet and not blocks ....

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by psphani »

I have seen complete sheets of Soruth SG 13 - 1 Anna in Red on White Laid, around 4 of them till now. I have seen complete sheets of the 4 Annas - both SG 14,15 but i cannot remember where.

Never seen complete sheets of SG 11,12 - 1 Anna in Black on Azure laid - these are definitely rare as complete sheets due to high usage. But i know for sure some sub settings sheets are there...

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by medicoirfan »

psphani wrote:I have seen complete sheets of Soruth SG 13 - 1 Anna in Red on White Laid, around 4 of them till now. I have seen complete sheets of the 4 Annas - both SG 14,15 but i cannot remember where.

Never seen complete sheets of SG 11,12 - 1 Anna in Black on Azure laid - these are definitely rare as complete sheets due to high usage. But i know for sure some sub settings sheets are there...
That's encouraging to know, as I had never seen them in any auctions ...i m hopeful that perhaps one day they may come in auction...

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by psphani »

Flights cancelled is causing lots of problems with shipments. I have 4 packages on route from Europe to USA and 2 are stuck in Chicago, 1 in UK and one near my home but i cannot pick it as its a distribution centre.

I just hope all buyers are patient and do not open ebay/paypal case within 30 days as its sure to take more than 30 days for items to arrive. I am not shipping any item without tracking just to be on safe side.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Dhanavantari »

RoCe wrote:J&K SG O4 sheet doesn’t have any rivets. It looks to me that you are right, but post scan of the front side please.
What do you think of this sheet and the watermark? ?? Genuine variant?
Krishn@

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Dhanavantari »

RoCe wrote:J&K SG O4 sheet doesn’t have any rivets. It looks to me that you are right, but post scan of the front side please.
What do you think of this sheet and the watermark? ?? Genuine variant?
Krishn@

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by RoCe »

Dhanavantari wrote:
RoCe wrote:J&K SG O4 sheet doesn’t have any rivets. It looks to me that you are right, but post scan of the front side please.
What do you think of this sheet and the watermark? ?? Genuine variant?
Yes, the sheet is genuine. There are not many information about watermarks as these sheets are very rare, but the watermark lines (perpendicular to laid lines) are probably typical. I originally thought that the paper might be batonne, but now I believe the parallel lines are part of watermark as they are on all my laid sheets.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by psphani »

medicoirfan wrote:
psphani wrote:I have seen complete sheets of Soruth SG 13 - 1 Anna in Red on White Laid, around 4 of them till now. I have seen complete sheets of the 4 Annas - both SG 14,15 but i cannot remember where.

Never seen complete sheets of SG 11,12 - 1 Anna in Black on Azure laid - these are definitely rare as complete sheets due to high usage. But i know for sure some sub settings sheets are there...
That's encouraging to know, as I had never seen them in any auctions ...i m hopeful that perhaps one day they may come in auction...
There are many sheets or stamps from states that i thought did not exist until i saw or heard about them existing with collectors who have been collecting since late 1970's. Dan Walker is just one of them (i guess everybody knows that by now!) to have a huge collection of material from almost all states.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by medicoirfan »

psphani wrote:
medicoirfan wrote:
psphani wrote:I have seen complete sheets of Soruth SG 13 - 1 Anna in Red on White Laid, around 4 of them till now. I have seen complete sheets of the 4 Annas - both SG 14,15 but i cannot remember where.

Never seen complete sheets of SG 11,12 - 1 Anna in Black on Azure laid - these are definitely rare as complete sheets due to high usage. But i know for sure some sub settings sheets are there...
That's encouraging to know, as I had never seen them in any auctions ...i m hopeful that perhaps one day they may come in auction...
There are many sheets or stamps from states that i thought did not exist until i saw or heard about them existing with collectors who have been collecting since late 1970's. Dan Walker is just one of them (i guess everybody knows that by now!) to have a huge collection of material from almost all states.
I hope he write the second part of that article on Soruth typeset issues and we get to see more hidden gems of his collection.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Dhanavantari »

Does anyone have a list with dimensions of each of the J&K rectangular (old and new) and circulars.

I have located the dimensions of the inner and outer ovals in the rectangulars of genuine and Die I and Die II forgeries, but not the outer dimensions.

Any help would be appreciated.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by RoCe »

Dhanavantari wrote:Does anyone have a list with dimensions of each of the J&K rectangular (old and new) and circulars.

I have located the dimensions of the inner and outer ovals in the rectangulars of genuine and Die I and Die II forgeries, but not the outer dimensions.

Any help would be appreciated.

Krishn@
Krishna, I am not aware of any such study or analysis, you can be probably first to do it. But practical use of such information, in my opinion, is rather limited. Dimensions of stamps play important role probably only in differentiation of genuine 2A new rectangulars from Brigton forgeries (forgeries are too narrow in both dimensions).

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by teus »

I need help with a Cochin postmark. It is a C-12 barred numeral cancel with thick bars. Where is it used? I have a list of these numbers but C-12 is missing in it.

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Re: C12 Code of Tattamangalam AO

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

C12 was used at Tattamangalam (10.7003°N 76.7394°E), now in Palakkad district of Keralam state.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by teus »

Joy, thanks very much!

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Dhanavantari »

Trying to keep myself distracted in time free from work (essential health services)

Here is a Half Anna Black Oil print on ELP (I think there is a watermark too), making it a SG41

Image
Image
Image

Welcome Any opinions to confirm

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by pmc »

Hi. Not sure where else to put this one, short of starting a new thread, but I think the right people are more likely to see it here :wink:

Looking for any help on this stampless cover. Alwar or Bundi or other? Date? Translation?

I feel that the drawn dagger has some official significance, but what?
Image
Thanks :D
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Re: Uniyara Official Mail

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

pmc wrote: Hi.
Looking for any help on this stampless cover. Alwar or Bundi or other? Date? Translation?
Image
Thanks :D
Transcription
जरूरी थाणा नगर ई. ऊणयारा में पहुचै
लेज्या थाना घाड़ से वकार सर्कार जरूरी
इति जेठ शुक्ल ४ तारीख ८ जुन से १८६८
Transliteration

Zarūrī Thānā Nagar Ī. Ūṇyārā Mẽ Pahuchai
Lejyā Thānā Ghāṛ Se Wakar Sarkār Zarūrī
Iti Jeṭh Śhukla 4 Tārīkh 8 June Se 1868

Translation
Important/Urgent
To reach (Police) Station Town Uniyara
Send via Station Ghar
Official Urgent
End Jeth 4 of Waxing Moon Fortnight Date 8 June 1868

Jeth/Jyaishtha is the third month of Samvat Calendar/Rashtriya Pañchang.

This cover was sent thru Niwai Line of Jaypur State Post (est. 1861) via Ghar to Uniyara (25.9156°N 76.0267°E), an estate of Jaypur state in Malpura Nizamat, but now located in Tonk district of Rajasthan state.

Incidentally, Uniyara maintained a cheap intra-estate postal service, much to the disgruntlement of Br. India Post Office.
pmc wrote: I feel that the drawn dagger has some official significance, but what?
I don't know of any official significance of handdrawn daggers on Jaypur covers.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by Dhanavantari »

RoCe wrote:
Dhanavantari wrote:
RoCe wrote:J&K SG O4 sheet doesn’t have any rivets. It looks to me that you are right, but post scan of the front side please.
What do you think of this sheet and the watermark? ?? Genuine variant?
Yes, the sheet is genuine. There are not many information about watermarks as these sheets are very rare, .....s.
I worked on the watermark and got this

Image
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by pmc »

Thank you so much Joy :D
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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by psphani »

Interesting read on the Wadhwan article in the latest India Post. Wadhwan Stone I reconstruction was not possible due to lack of multiples and its one of the major research area pending under Wadhwan.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by abctoo »

The Indian "Uglies" posts all the way from 2008 to now are masterful. I think the following four stamps address the "Ugly" issue of those prior posts, but I have some questions that the prior posts did not answer. The stamps are ugly enough to be genuine, but who knows? I acquired all of them over 40 years ago and recently rediscovered them in storage.

1. India-Dhar State, 1 anna, Imperf Margin Pair on thin pair. These 1898-1900 stamps are supposed to be perf 11 to 12. Imperf between examples of the 1 anna are catalogued in Scott and Stanley Gibbons, but no fully imperf 1 anna stamps are listed. Both catalogues list a variety of the ½ anna as Imperf. Any information?

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2. India-Bamra State, 4 annas, Imperf Single. Note: what is supposed to be the first "a" in "annas" is not an "a" nor even an inverted "a'. I cannot find out more information about it. The few reference guides I have to fakes do not identify the underlying stamp as a fake. Also, not having seen enough cancellations and the weakness of the strike on this stamp, I cannot even tell if the cancellation is genuine.

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3. India-Jhind State, ½ anna brown buff, postally used, Perf. 12, horizontally laid thick paper, a variety of Scott #30, S.G. #27b. I especially appreciate the old Stamp Board listings because they provided excellent examples of genuine cancellations.

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4. India-Jhind State, ½ anna Blue revenue stamp. This is the stamp the drives men crazy. As a postage stamp it was issued in different colors (see the previous item). The catalogues do not mention the same design was also issued in "blue" for revenue purposes only (Forbin #2). Many hours can be spent trying to find a postage stamp catalogue that lists it.

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Re: Fake Bamanda 1890 4A SG 19/Benns BM30/BM33/Preston 18

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

abctoo wrote: Image
The stamp is a complete fake what was purported to be Bamanda (ବାମଣ୍ଡା) (it is the correct name of the state) 1890 4A SG 19/Benns BM30/BM33/Preston 18.

I guess it is not possible to get refund after 40 years. :?

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Re: Jind 1880 ½A K&M 141 Revenue Stamp

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

abctoo wrote: 4. This is the stamp the drives men crazy. Many hours can be spent trying to find a postage stamp catalogue that lists it.

Image
The answer is already posted here 4 years back. 8)

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=4577385&sid=7640329#p4577385

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Re: Jind 1885 ½A SG J48

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

abctoo wrote: 3. India-Jhind State, ½ anna brown buff, postally used, Perf. 12, horizontally laid thick paper, a variety of Scott #30, S.G. #27b.

Image
Whoever marked the stamp J27 in pencil is wrong and Jind SG 27b does not exist.

This is Jind 1885 ½A lemon SG J48 with Stewart-Wilson type 2 cancel but since the apex of the cancel is not impressed on the stamp, the Akāl No. is not visible.

There is an article on the Jind inverted-cordate cancels titled The Heart-Shaped Postmarks of the Feudatory State of Jind by John Warren; Ref. India Post (No.201 Vol.L No.4 10–12/2016); p.161.

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Re: Dhar 1898 1A SG 9b

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

[quote="abctoo"]
1. India-Dhar State, 1 anna, Imperf Margin Pair on thin pair. These 1898-1900 stamps are supposed to be perf 11 to 12. Imperf between examples of the 1 anna are catalogued in Scott and Stanley Gibbons, but no fully imperf 1 anna stamps are listed. Both catalogues list a variety of the ½ anna as Imperf. Any information?

[img]http://www.stampboards.com/images/misci/tomQC96.jpg?1[/img]
[/quote]

This is genuine Dhar 1898 1A Dhar CoA reddish violet imperf pair SG 9b with CV £200 in Stanley Gibbons Stamp Catalogue India 2018 5th Ed., the latest catalog I have.

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Re: Banging the drum for the Uglies - Indian States stamps

Post by abctoo »

Here is a question and an issue about Gwalior fakes. The first scan is a high resolution scan my 8 anna stamp purported to be the 1949 Gwalior overprint, Scott #125, SG 138. When I put it away 40 years ago, a question lingered in my mind whether the overprint was printed on top of or below the cancel. I found a stamp purported to be the same that was just sold on eBay. When I looked at the eBay stamp (at their lower resolution scan), it was obvious that my stamp did not have the bold clear typeface of the eBay one. The second scan below is the eBay stamp. But then looking at the eBay stamp, it appeared that its overprint was printed on top of the cancellation. I then found a pair offered on the Stanley Gibbons website which looks like the cancel is on top of the overprint. See the third scan below (they also use a lower resolution for scanning). The Stanley Gibbons pair does not have the bold overprint typeface of the eBay stamp. So two questions arise. First, which of the overprints are printed on top of the cancellations (these would be fakes) and second, if genuine Gwalior issues, are the cancellations fake?

Image
My stamp.

Image
The eBay stamp.

Image
Stanley Gibbons pair.

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Re: Dhar 1898 1A SG 9b

Post by abctoo »

Joy Daschaudhuri wrote:
abctoo wrote: 1. India-Dhar State, 1 anna, Imperf Margin Pair on thin pair.

Image
This is genuine Dhar 1898 1A Dhar CoA reddish violet imperf pair SG 9b with CV £200 in Stanley Gibbons Stamp Catalogue India 2018 5th Ed., the latest catalog I have.
I thought my old 1953 Stanley Gibbons catalogue would be pretty complete after the stamps had been obsolete for more than 50 years. Scott seemed to confirm that erroneous assumption.

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Re: Fake Bamanda 1890 4A SG 19/Benns BM30/BM33/Preston 18

Post by abctoo »

Joy Daschaudhuri wrote:
The stamp is a complete fake what was purported to be Bamanda (ବାମଣ୍ଡା) (it is the correct name of the state) 1890 4A SG 19/Benns BM30/BM33/Preston 18.

I guess it is not possible to get refund after 40 years. :?
I think the best thing for me to do is to find an organization that maintains such fakes for reference and will be around long after I am gone. Any suggestions? By the way, my old 1953 Stanley Gibbons catalogue spells the name as Bamra. Have they changed that in your 2018 catalogue?

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Re: Jind 1885 ½A SG J48

Post by abctoo »

Joy Daschaudhuri wrote:
abctoo wrote: 3. India-Jhind State, ½ anna brown buff, postally used, Perf. 12, horizontally laid thick paper, a variety of Scott #30, S.G. #27b.

Image
Whoever marked the stamp J27 in pencil is wrong and Jind SG 27b does not exist.

This is Jind 1885 ½A lemon SG J48 with Stewart-Wilson type 2 cancel but since the apex of the cancel is not impressed on the stamp, the Akāl No. is not visible.
My old 1953 SG catalogue is really obsolete. It lists only 42 major numbers for Jind, including a perf. 12 in the category of "(b) Laid paper" as SG 39 ½ a. lemon." It is good to know that by 2018, that catalogue section was updated.

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