Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

News items. General trends, new issues, new policies etc. **Whatever** you like. WORLDWIDE. Start a new thread on your question. Please do not discuss ebay in THIS forum as we have a separate and popular Forum for that discussion.

Moderator: Volunteer Moderator Team

Post Reply
User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Note on Chinese currency, and further note on numerals

Earlier I showed a PRC 1 Jiao banknote to illustrate use of the banker's numeral for 'one': 壹 [yī]

一角钞票 [yījiǎo chāopiào] — one jiao banknote.

Here I show the corresponding 2013 coin:
一角硬币 [yījiǎo yìngbì] — one jiao coin.


The jiǎo /dʒaʊ/, [jiǎo], or [máo], or [háo] ([hou] in Cantonese), is a unit of currency used in Greater China, including People's Republic of China (Mainland China), Republic of China (Taiwan), Hong Kong and Macao. One jiao is equal to one-tenth of a [yuán] —"dollar", or ten [fēn] — "cent" . (Compare US English "dime")

One_Jiao_Obverse.jpg
One_Jiao_Reverse.jpg
.
PRC, 1 Jiao = 10 Fen, 2013
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiao_(currency)

Note: the usual name for the yuán is:
人民币 [rénmínbì] = RMB — People's currency

Further note on Chinese numerals

In my earlier discussion on Chinese numerals I didn't discuss use of the character for zero.
[líng] — zero

I found the following group of examples under
中文中零的用法 [Zhōngwén zhōng líng de yòngfǎ] — Use of zero in Chinese
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinese_(Mandarin)/Numbers

There is no need for 零 at the "small end" of a number. For example:
三百五十 [sānbǎi wǔshí] — 350
一千三百五十 [yīqiān sānbǎi wǔshí] — 1350
一千六百 [yīqiān liùbǎi] — 1600

However, any internal 零 needs to be included in the "middle" of a number. For example:
三百零五 [sānbǎi líng wǔ] — 305 [Note that 零 is alone, not "零十"]
一千零三十五 [yīqiān líng sānshíwǔ] — 1035 [Note that 零 is alone, not "零百"]

Note: In my earlier post on numerals I mistakenly gave the example
二千二十 [èrqiān èrshí] — 2020
This should be corrected to
二千二十 [èrqiān líng èrshí] — 2020

No consecutive uses of 零 are required. For example:
一千零六 [yīqiān líng liù] — 1006
三十萬零二百五十 [sānshíwàn líng èrbǎi wǔshí] — 30'0250 [=300,250]
八百萬零三百 [bābǎiwàn líng sānbǎi] — 800'0300 [=8,000,300]

The examples cited here use the traditional character 一萬 [yīwàn] — ten thousand
The simplified character is 一万 [yīwàn] — ten thousand
A convenient (but less familiar) translation of 萬/万 [wàn] [ㄨㄢˋ] is myriad
The word "myriad" is mostly used to mean a large but indefinite number, but another more precise meaning is a name for the definite number 10,000.
myriad (n.)
1550s, "the number of 10,000," also "an indefinitely great number," from Middle French myriade and directly from Late Latin myrias (genitive myriadis) "ten thousand," from Greek myrias (genitive myriados) "a number of ten thousand; countless numbers," from myrios (plural myrioi) "innumerable, countless, infinite; boundless," as a definite number, "ten thousand" ("the greatest number in Greek expressed by one word," Liddell & Scott say)
https://www.etymonline.com/word/myriad

/RogerE :D
Last edited by RogerE on 19 Sep 2020 03:34, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Stamps and Languages Local Index (351–450)
.
Screen Shot 2020-09-19 at 2.05.49 am.png
Screen Shot 2020-09-19 at 2.06.21 am.png
Screen Shot 2020-09-19 at 2.06.51 am.png
Screen Shot 2020-09-19 at 2.07.20 am.png
Screen Shot 2020-09-19 at 2.09.02 am.png
.
To access a post, paste or type its number into the url at the top of this page, to replace the number '450'
Example: to go to the first post on Chinese, listed here as Chinese 430, modify
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=450
so that it becomes
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=430
To go to the Local Index for the first 150 posts on this thread, enter
https://www.stampboards.com/posting.php?mode=reply&f=13&t=90529&start=150
To go to the Local Index for the posts 151–250 on this thread, enter
https://www.stampboards.com/posting.php?mode=reply&f=13&t=90529&start=250

/RogerE :D

User avatar
nigelc
I was online for our Birthday Number 3!
I was online for our Birthday Number 3!
Posts: 4442
Joined: 10 May 2008 02:36
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by nigelc »

Hi Roger,

It was good to see the word breve again, as we discussed for example in the context of Latin scansion.

It's also used in music to describe the long note equal in length (unsurprisingly) to two semibreves or eight crotchets.

In American terminology, the breve is a double whole note equal in length to two whole notes or eight quarter notes.

As its name suggests, a breve was originally a short musical note, equal to either a third or a half of a longa depending on the rhythmic mode.

You don't often see breves in modern music but one use would be in a piece written in 4/2 time, i.e. in bars (measures) each with four minim (half note) beats.

I've most often seen this used in older hymn settings.

The usual symbol for a breve in modern music is the same as a semibreve with two vertical lines on each side.

From Wikipedia:
breve_symbols.PNG
Nigel

User avatar
nigelc
I was online for our Birthday Number 3!
I was online for our Birthday Number 3!
Posts: 4442
Joined: 10 May 2008 02:36
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by nigelc »

Hi Roger,

Further to your comments on the word "myriad", I remember being intrigued to learn many years ago that there was an old metric unit prefix myria- meaning 10,000 with the abbreviation my.

For example, one myriametre (or myriameter) = 1 mym = 10,000 m.

The myria- prefix was not included when the SI system of units was established.
Nigel

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Thanks nigelc for your latest two posts, on breve in music, and myria as a prefix for 10,000.

The reference to myria reminded me of another unit in current use, the mya.
It's used for geological-scale time periods, and stands for "million years ago".
Here's a thumbnail on the Cambrian Period, with mya units proving useful and appropriate:
The Cambrian Period /ˈkæm.bri.ən, ˈkeɪm-/ [KAM-bree-ən, KAYM-] was the first geological period of the Paleozoic Era, and of the Phanerozoic Eon. The Cambrian lasted 55.6 million years from the end of the preceding Ediacaran Period 541 million years ago (mya) to the beginning of the Ordovician Period 485.4 mya. ... The period was established (as “Cambrian series”) by Adam Sedgwick, who named it after Cambria, the Latin name of Wales, where Britain's Cambrian rocks are best exposed. The Cambrian is unique in its unusually high proportion of lagerstätte sedimentary deposits, sites of exceptional preservation where "soft" parts of organisms are preserved as well as their more resistant shells. As a result, our understanding of the Cambrian biology surpasses that of some later periods.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian
/RogerE :D

User avatar
Panterra
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
Posts: 1629
Joined: 28 Feb 2012 21:54
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by Panterra »

Hi Roger, I see Mongolian vertical script has not yet been featured here, yet.

This script was used on the first set of Tuva, shown on another thread:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=6753274#p6753274

When the UPU received their specimens of these stamps to distribute to their members, they were rather offended, and told the Tuvans that they should, in future, also show the stamp values and details in "a European language" as sadly few folks outside Mongolia, Buryatia, and Tuva are well-informed on Mongol vertical script.

So Tuva's second issue comprised overprints, with the details shown in English:

Image
Tuva 1927 Wheel of Dharma with surcharge, 14 kopecks on 1R. Standard letter rate to USSR.
Backman # 12. Mirr # 12.

You may not be able to clearly see it, but the overprint has the words TOUVA POSTAGE and the new value.





I was rather worried that this elegant script would become extinct, but there is good news from Mongolia:
Wikipedia wrote:The script remained in continuous use by Mongolian speakers in Inner Mongolia in People's Republic of China. In the Mongolian People's Republic, it was largely replaced by the Mongolian Cyrillic alphabet, although the vertical script remained in limited use. In March 2020, the Mongolian government announced plans to increase the use of the traditional Mongolian script and to use both Cyrillic and Mongolian script in official documents by 2025.
If you would like to learn Mongolian online, try this site: https://www.studymongolian.net/

Image
Tuva 1927 Wheel of Dharma with surcharge, 18 kopecks on 3R.
Backman # 13. Mirr # 13.
Mongolian-script.jpg
Mongolian calligraphy.

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

The latest post on Mongolian script and philately by our friend Bruce = Panterra is evidence that memory is fickle, and the older we get, the fickler it is. (I should know!) ;)
Panterra wrote:
19 Sep 2020 05:03
Hi Roger, I see Mongolian vertical script has not yet been featured here, yet.
In fact, there have been several earlier posts on Mongolian script and philately in this thread, the first of them initiated by Panterra hisself ;) Fickler 'n fickler...
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=324
The other relevant links can be accessed by replacing "324" in that url by 325, 335, 336, 337.
All of these are listed under "Mongolian" in the Index for Posts 251-351:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=351

By the way, Wikipedia's detailed discussion of Mongolian script provided in Bruce's post is excellent :D

Mongolian numerals (one and two digits)

Well, having jogged Bruce's memory, I would now like to discuss Mongolian numerals. But a systematic discussion needs a bit more groundwork, so it will be best if I post some other discussions first. In the meantime, let me mention that the Mongolian numerals for 1, 2, 5, 8, 10 appear at the base of the low denomination Dharma Chakra stamps shown in Bruce's post "324", and the numerals 30, 50, and 1 [ruble] are on the high denomination stamps he showed in post "325". (Lovely stamps, worth looking at again! The overprinted/surcharged issues are less visually attractive.)
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=324

Mongolian numerals on banknotes

Mongolia: 20,000 tögrög banknote
Mongolia: 20,000 tögrög banknote
.
Mongolia: 10 mongö banknote
Mongolia: 10 mongö banknote
.
Mongolia: 20 mongö banknote
Mongolia: 20 mongö banknote
.
Mongolia: 50 mongö banknote
Mongolia: 50 mongö banknote
.
Mongolia: 10 tugrik banknote
Mongolia: 10 tugrik banknote
.
Mongolia: 20 tugrik banknote
Mongolia: 20 tugrik banknote
.
Mongolia: 50 tugrik banknote
Mongolia: 50 tugrik banknote

Mongolian numerals (larger than you thought!)

My post on Chinese numerals shows special names and characters for
壹佰 [yībǎi] — one hundred = 10²
壹仟 [yīqiān] — one thousand = 10³
壹萬 [yīwàn] — ten thousand = 10⁴ [a myriad]
壹億 [yīyì] — one hundred million = 10⁸ [a myriad myriad]
壹兆 [yīzhào] — one trillion = 10¹² [a myriad myriad myriad]

Thinking about very large numbers has a special fascination of its own. In the Mongolian tradition there has been some very impressive thinking about very large numbers — not superficial, really engaged, with details seriously developed and presented. Consider this (and be amazed!):
Wikipedia wrote:Mongolian numerals are numerals developed from Tibetan numerals and used in conjunction with the Mongolian and Clear(*) script. They are still used on Mongolian tögrög banknotes.

The main sources of reference for Mongolian numerals are mathematical and philosophical works of Janj khutugtu A.Rolbiidorj (1717-1766) and D. Injinaash (1704-1788). Rolbiidorj exercises with numerals of up to 10^66, the last number which he called setgeshguiunimaginable, referring to the concept of infinity. Injinaash works with numerals of up to 10^59. Of these two scholars, the Rolbiidorj’s numerals, their names and sequencing are commonly accepted and used today, for example, in the calculations and documents pertaining to the Mongolian Government budget.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_numerals
(*) Note: "Clear" script [Tot bichig] for Mongolian (and related languages) is a phonetic script, conceptually akin to bopomofo for Chinese and related languages.
Mongolian: Тод бичиг, ᠲᠣᠳᠣ ᠪᠢᠴᠢᠭ [tod bichig] /tɔt bit͡ʃək/,
is an alphabet created in 1648 by the Oirat Buddhist monk Zaya Pandita for the Oirat language. It was developed on the basis of the Mongolian script with the goal of distinguishing all sounds in the spoken language, and to make it easier to transcribe Sanskrit and the Tibetic languages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_Script
/RogerE :D

User avatar
Panterra
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
Posts: 1629
Joined: 28 Feb 2012 21:54
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by Panterra »

Sorry to have overlooked this, and yes, I do now recall putting those posts about Mongol script up.

But I was perplexed by not seeing "Mongolian" on your index:


Image
Image

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Numerals in Arabic script (Eastern Arabic Numerals)

The numerals used in Arabic script, and their pronunciation in Arabic, are summarised in this introductory table, designed for learners whose first language is English:

aee98dbe973be9fff8e2278def9d0c5e.jpg
https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/239042692705702990/


The next table shows the number words (zero to nine) in English, in Arabic script, and in romanised transliteration. (Note that it gives the Hindu-Arabic numerals used in the various versions of the Latin [= Roman] script, but not the Arabic script numerals, which are shown in the previous table)

Arabic_numbers.png
https://www.arabicpod101.com/blog/2019/10/24/arabic-numbers/

Examples of usage

Arabic is written right-to-left, and this includes the written words for numbers.
The Arabic readings of two-digit numerals is in the right-to-left order mirroring the script: for example, "twelve" is essentially "two and ten", "fifteen" is essentially "five and ten", "twenty-one" is essentially "one and twenty", and so on. However, 120 is essentially "a hundred and twenty", and "2020" is essentially "two thousand and twenty".
The numeral script for numbers is written "left-to-right" in the sense that the largest place-value is leftmost, and place-values reduce by a factor of ten with each step from left to right.
[The "pronunciations" are those supplied by Google Translate; they are somewhat subjective.]

اثني عشر [athnay eashar] — twelve
—> ١٢12
خمسة عشر [khmst eshr] — fifteen
—> ١٥15
الثامنة عشر [alththaminat eshr] — eighteen
—> ١٨18
واحد وعشرين [wahid weshryn] — twenty-one
—> ٢١21
خمسة وثلاثون [khmstan wathalathun] — thirty-five
—> ٣٥35
ستة وخمسون [sttan wakhamsun] — fifty-six
—> ٥٦56
ثمانية وسبعون [thmanytan wasabeun] — seventy-eight
—> ٧٨78
تسعة وثمانون [tset wathamanun] — eighty-nine
—> ٨٩89
مائة و عشرون [miayat w eshrun] — one hundred and twenty
—> ١٢٠120
ألفان وعشرون ['alfan waeishrun] — two thousand and twenty
—> ٢٠٢٠2020


اللغة العربية الفصحى [allughat alearabiat alfushaa] — Modern Standard Arabic
.
There are many varieties of Arabic. These are indicated in the post
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=350
The 91 worlds languages with at least 10 million speakers include 12 varieties of Arabic. Their ranks on the list are 23, 42, 43, 44, 49, 53, 66, 70, 81, 82, 83, 88 —see the list at
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=353

Here is another listing of numerals in Arabic script, with pronunciations which differ in detail from those given earlier in this post. I am not sure which variety of Arabic is used in each of these sources (but none of them specifies which variety it is using.)

Screen Shot 2020-09-19 at 8.05.49 pm.png
Screen Shot 2020-09-19 at 8.06.20 pm.png
Screen Shot 2020-09-19 at 8.07.04 pm.png
https://omniglot.com/language/numbers/arabic.htm

Philatelic Examples
.
Note that the date range 1945–1960 appears in right-to-left order in Arabic script: ١٩٤٥–١٩٦٠

.UAR: United Nations commemoratives, 1945–1960<br />10m and 35m
.UAR: United Nations commemoratives, 1945–1960
10m and 35m
.
UAR: 1961 Post Day commemorative, .10m
UAR: 1961 Post Day commemorative, .10m
.
/RogerE :D

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Hindu-Arabic Numerals (Western Arabic Numerals)
.
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
.
Western Arabic numerals, including text figures or numerals
Western Arabic numerals, including text figures or numerals
.
The bottom row shows the numeral glyphs as they appear in type
in German incunabula (Nicolaus Kesler, Basel, 1486)

Text figures: Text figures (also known as non-lining, lowercase, old style, ranging, hanging, medieval, billing, or antique figures or numerals) are numerals designed with varying heights in a fashion that resembles a typical line of running text, hence the name. They are contrasted with lining figures (also called titling or modern figures), which are the same height as upper-case letters. Georgia is an example of a popular typeface that employs text figures by default.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu%E2%80%93Arabic_numeral_system
.
Western Arabic numerals

In English, the numerals used in Latin [= Roman] script (and also in Cyrillic and Greek scripts) are frequently called "Arabic Numerals". However, this term is ambiguous: taken literally, it appears to refer to the numerals that are used in written Arabic. To disambiguate, the numerals used in Arabic script are called Eastern Arabic numerals, while the forms used in Latin [Roman] script are called Western Arabic numerals.
The Hindu–Arabic numeral system or Indo-Arabic numeral system (also called the Arabic numeral system or Hindu numeral system) is a positional decimal numeral system, and is the most common system for the symbolic representation of numbers in the world.

It was invented between the 1st and 4th centuries by Indian mathematicians. The system was adopted in Arabic mathematics (also called Islamic mathematics) by the 9th century. Influential were the books of Al-Khwārizmī On Calculation with Hindu [Indian] Numerals (c. 825)(*) and Al-Kindi On the Use of Hindu [Indian] Numerals (c. 830)(**). The system later spread to medieval Europe by the High Middle Ages.

The system is based upon ten (originally nine) glyphs. The symbols (glyphs) used to represent the system are in principle independent of the system itself. The glyphs in actual use are descended from Brahmi numerals and have split into various typographical variants since the Middle Ages.

These symbol sets can be divided into three main families: Western Arabic numerals used in the Greater Maghreb and in Europe, Eastern Arabic numerals (also called "Indic numerals") used in the Middle East, and the Indian numerals in various scripts used in the Indian subcontinent.

Terminology

The Hindu-Arabic or Indo-Arabic numerals were invented by mathematicians in India. Persian and Arabic mathematicians called them "Hindu numerals", where "Hindu" meant Indian. Later they came to be called "Arabic numerals" in Europe because they were introduced to the West by Arab merchants
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu%E2%80%93Arabic_numeral_system

The scholars responsible for transmitting Indo-Arabic numerals to the West

(*) al-Khwārizmī

Persian scholar al-Khwārizmī = Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī محمد بن موسی خوارزمی‎‎, Persian: Muḥammad Khwārizmī (c.780 – c.850), Arabized as al-Khwarizmi,formerly Latinized as Algorismi, was a Persian polymath who produced vastly influential works in mathematics, astronomy, and geography. Around 820 CE he was appointed as the astronomer and head of the library of the House of Wisdom in Baghdad.
In the 12th century, Latin translations of his textbook on arithmetic, كتاب الحساب الهندي [kitāb al-ḥisāb al-hindī] = Algorithmo de Numero IndorumTextbook on Computation with Indian Numerals, which codified Indian numerals, introduced the decimal positional number system to the Western world. The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing, translated into Latin by Robert of Chester in 1145, was used until the sixteenth century as the principal mathematical textbook of European universities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi
.
Russia, 1980: Commemorative of 1200th anniversary of birth of Muhammed al-Khorezmi
Russia, 1980: Commemorative of 1200th anniversary of birth of Muhammed al-Khorezmi
[Correction: Year of issue was 1983]


(**) al-Kindī

Arab scholar al-Kindī = Abu Yūsuf Yaʻqūb ibn ʼIsḥāq aṣ-Ṣabbāḥ al-Kindī , /ælˈkɪndi/, Arabic: أبو يوسف يعقوب بن إسحاق الصبّاح الكندي‎, Latin: Alkindus (c. 801–873 AD) was an Arab Muslim philosopher, polymath, mathematician, physician and musician. Al-Kindi was the first of the Islamic peripatetic philosophers, and is hailed as the "father of Arab philosophy". He became a prominent figure in the House of Wisdom in Baghdad, and a number of Abbasid Caliphs appointed him to oversee the translation of Greek scientific and philosophical texts into the Arabic language. He wrote hundreds of original treatises on a wide range of subjects. In the field of mathematics, al-Kindi played an important role in introducing Indian numerals to the Islamic world, and subsequently, relabelled as Arabic numerals, to the Christian world. His influential work in this subject was
كتاب في استعمال العداد الهندي [kitāb fī isti'māl al-'adād al-hindī] — Textbook on the Use of Hindu Numerals
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kindi
.
Book cover — &quot;Al-Kindi: Father of Arab Philosophy&quot;, by Tony Abboud.
Book cover — "Al-Kindi: Father of Arab Philosophy", by Tony Abboud.
/RogerE :D

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Panterra wrote:
19 Sep 2020 22:24
Sorry to have overlooked this, and yes, I do now recall putting those posts about Mongol script up.

But I was perplexed by not seeing "Mongolian" on your index:

50237499.jpg
Thank you, Star Trek
https://memegenerator.net/instance/50237499/star-trek-smirk-you-didnt-read-the-fine-print


Ahhh, Panterra, the devil is in the detail.

The indexes for the Stamps and Languages thread are local, as the headers clearly state — the first one covered the first three "pages" of the thread (150 posts), and subsequent ones have covered next pairs of pages (100 posts each). You looked for "Mongolian" only among the last 100 posts, whereas the previous posts about Mongolian were among the hundred posts before that!

(The indexes are "local" to keep them from being too long, and from being too repetitive of earlier data. They are like grouping notes at the end of each chapter of a book, in contrast to putting all the notes for the whole book at the very back of the book.)

I wrote:
All of these are listed under "Mongolian" in the Index for Posts 251-351:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=351

Portion of Local Index for Posts (351-450)
Portion of Local Index for Posts (351-450)
Does that bring you back on track, so we're on the same page (so to speak)‽
I hope that this discussion will be helpful for others who might not have realised that is how the Local Indexes for this thread have been designed.

/RogerE :D

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Numerals in the Scripts of Indian Languages

Several posts back we were discussing Mongolian script. I indicated my intention to give a systematic post about the numerals in that script. That hasn't happened yet, because I wanted to first cover some "basic" discussion about numerals in more familiar scripts. I have now discussed the most familiar Indo-Arabic numeral sets — Western Arabic numerals (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) [commonly referred to as "Arabic numerals"} and Eastern Arabic numerals (٩٨٧٦٥٤٣٢١٠) [unambiguously referred to as the numerals of Arabic script].

I am now ready to discuss the third branch of Indo-Arabic numerals, the numerals of the various scripts used by the languages of the Indian subcontinent.

Numerals in the Scripts of Indian Languages
.
Here are the ten digits/glyphs in eleven Indian language scripts. All employ decimal systems of numeration.

Screen Shot 2020-09-20 at 2.27.16 pm.png

s-l1600-2.jpg
.
"Pair"(?) 3p revenue stamp(s), Forest Department, Devanagari script, including numeral.
I think these are Maharashtra revenues, inscribed in Marathi.
[Joy, can you confirm or correct, please?]
Notes
.
• The various forms of "zero" (0) are most easily recognised across this list, and are historically the most recently added character/glyph in each list. The dot, used in various Eastern Arabic scripts (here: Urdu) is the exception — it refers to an empty place in calculating devices such as an abacus or tray of counters. The glyph for "two" is probably the next most easily recognised by readers only familiar with Latin/Roman script. On the other hand, even the glyph for "one" is surprisingly varied across scripts, and easily misread by readers only familiar with Latin/Roman script. Geographical proximity has resulted in greater similarity between some sets of scripts in this list — look at Devanagari, Gujarati and Gurmukhi, for instance, or Kanada and Telugu.

• The Devanagari script is not specific to a single language, though its current use for Hindi is numerically its most common occurrence. Historically its main use was to write Sanskrit, but it has been adopted for many important contemporary languages in addition to Hindi, including Konkani, Marathi, Maithili, Bhojpuri and Nepali.
Wikipedia wrote:Devanagari, /ˌdeɪvəˈnɑːɡəri/ DAY-və-NAH-gər-ee; देवनागरी, IAST: Devanāgarī (Sanskrit pronunciation: [deːʋɐˈnaːɡɐɽiː]), also called Nagari नागरी [Nāgarī] is a left-to-right abugida/alphasyllabary based on the ancient Brāhmī script, used in the Indian subcontinent. It was developed in ancient India from the 1st to the 4th century CE and was in regular use by the 7th century CE. The Devanagari script, composed of 47 primary characters including 14 vowels and 33 consonants, is the fourth(*) most widely adopted writing system in the world, being used for over 120 languages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devanagari
(*) In order of number of users, the world's most widely adopted scripts are: Latin [= Roman]; Chinese [= 汉字/漢字 Hànzì]; Arabic [العربية alearabia]; Devanagari [देवनागरी Devanāgarī]. Each has more than 600m users, while all others have fewer than 300m users [m = million].

• The Urdu numerals are essentially the Persian form of Eastern Arabic numerals — the most characteristic differences from "standard" Eastern Arabic numerals being in the three middle digits: ۴ ۵ ۶
Spoken Hindi and Urdu are very similar, and certainly mutually intelligible.
Encyclopedia Britannica wrote:Their distinction is most marked in terms of writing systems: Urdu uses a modified form of Perso-Arabic script known as Nastaliq, nastaʿlīq, while Hindi uses Devanagari script.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Urdu-language
Wikipedia wrote:Nastaʼlīq, /ˈnæstəˌliːk/, Persian: نستعلیق‎ IPA: /næsˈtæʔliːq/, is one of the main calligraphic hands used in writing the Persian alphabet and the Urdu alphabet, and traditionally the predominant style in Persian calligraphy. It was developed in Persia [= Iran] in the 14th and 15th centuries. It is sometimes used to write Arabic language text (where it is mainly used for titles and headings), but its use has always been more popular in the Persian, Urdu and Turkic sphere of influence. Nastaliq remains very widely used in Iran, Afghanistan and the Indian Subcontinent and other countries for written poetry and as a form of art.

A less elaborate version of Nastaliq serves as the preferred style for writing in Kashmiri and Urdu and it is often used alongside Naskh for Pashto. In Persian [Farsi], it is used for poetry only.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nastaliq

Asomiya/Assamese and Bengali numerals look identical. Are there two different scripts, or are they the same? Summary answer: very similar, but not the same. For more detail, read on...
Let's follow up briefly on Assamese /ˌæsəˈmiːz/= Axomiya /ɔxɔmija/ অসমীয়া:
The Bengali–Assamese script, commonly known as Bengali script, also known as Eastern Nagari script, is a modern eastern Brahmic script...

There are three major modern alphabets in this script: Tirhuta, Bengali, and Assamese. Modern Assamese is very similar to modern Bengali though Tirhuta is more different from both Assamese and Bengali. Assamese has at least one extra letter, ৱ, that Bengali does not. It also uses a separate letter for the sound 'ro' ৰ different from the letter used for that sound in Bengali র and the letter ক্ষ is not a conjunct as in Bengali, but a letter by itself...

The Bengali—Assamese script was originally not associated with any particular regional language, but was prevalent as the main script in the eastern regions of Medieval India for Old- and Middle-Indo-Aryan including Sanskrit. Epics of Hindu scripture, including the Mahabharata or Ramayana, were written in older versions of the Eastern Nagari script in this region...

While efforts at standardising the script for the Bengali language continue in such notable centers as the Bangla Academy at Dhaka (Bangladesh) and Paschimbanga Bangla Akademi at Kolkata (West Bengal, India), it is still not quite uniform as yet, as many people continue to use various archaic forms of letters, resulting in concurrent forms for the same sounds. Among the various regional variations within this script, only the Bengali and Assamese variations exist today in the formalised system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali%E2%80%93Assamese_script

/RogerE :D

User avatar
Joy Daschaudhuri
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 3582
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 16:59
Location: Kolkata, India

Re: Language of Devnagari Inscriptions on India 3 Pāī Forest Department Fiscal Stamp

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

RogerE wrote:
20 Sep 2020 18:44
Image


"Pair"(?) 3p revenue stamp(s), Forest Department, Devanagari script, including numeral.
I think these are Maharashtra revenues, inscribed in Marathi.
[Joy, can you confirm or correct, please?]
/RogerE :D
The language is Hindi, not Marathi.

The spelling पाई (Pāī) was used in Hindi whereas in Marathi, the common usage was पै (Pai).

User avatar
Joy Daschaudhuri
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 3582
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 16:59
Location: Kolkata, India

Re: Bangla Inscriptions on Tripura 1943 2R8A & 5A Birbikramkishor Debbarman (1908‒1947) Stamp Papers

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

Here is a 4-year old post on Bangla script and numerals on two Tripura 1943 2R8A & 5A Birbikramkishor Debbarman (1908‒1947) stamp papers, if anyone interested.

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=4596600&sid=#p4596600

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Indian fascination with large numbers

Let's look at Indian thinking about large numbers.
Howeer, for context, first recall:

Revisiting recent "large number" posts

Fascination with large numbers (far beyond everyday experience of numerical quantities) has given rise to detailed notations, terminology and conceptual exploration which can truly be regarded as abstract mathematical thinking.

Chinese thinking about large numbers is attested to by the characters discussed in the post
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=442
Thanks to AMark, we saw the superscript "scientific notation" corresponding to the Chinese numerals 佰 [bǎi], 仟 [qiān], 萬 [wàn], 億 [yì], 兆 [zhào]:
[bǎi] = 10² [hundred]
[qiān] = 10³ [thousand]
[wàn] = 10⁴ [myriad]
[yì] = 10⁸ [myriad myriad]
[zhào] = 10¹² [myriad myriad myriad]
I am confident that the intellectual conceptualisation of large numbers by Chinese mathematicians went well beyond these characters, though so far I haven't come across relevant references.


Mongolian thinking about large numbers was significantly advanced by Janj khutugtu A.Rolbiidorj (1717-1766) and D. Injinaash (1704-1788). Injinaash went as far as 10^59, and his contemporary Rolbiidorj went up to 10^66 with his exercises.
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=456
.
Screen Shot 2020-09-20 at 11.56.43 pm.png
.
Indian tradition of "large number" thinking

In India today, the number word "million" is eclipsed in popular culture by two traditional Indian units,
लाखlakh and करोड़crore, which correspond to a tenth of a million, and ten million, respectively.
This is reflected in the positions where commas are inserted into notation for numbers with six or more digits.
बराबर [baraabar] — equal
एक सौ लाख एक करोड़ के बराबर है [ek sau laakh ek karod ke baraabar hai]
One hundred lakh is equal to one crore
.
Screen Shot 2020-09-20 at 11.57.33 pm.png
.
In classical Indian literature, the concept of very large numbers is woven into Buddhist tradition in this example:
J J O'Connor & E F Robertson wrote:To see clearly the early Indian fascination with large numbers, we can take a look at the Lalitavistara, which is an account of the life of Gautama Buddha. It is hard to date this work since it underwent continuous development over a long period but dating it to around the first or second century CE is reasonable. Lalitavistara recounts that Gautama, when he is a young man, is examined on mathematics. He is asked to name all the numerical ranks beyond a koti, which is 10^7.
. He lists the powers of 10 up to 10^53.
. Taking this as a first level, he then carries on to a second level and gets eventually to 10^421.
. Gautama's examiner says: — You, not I, are the master mathematician.
https://mathshistory.st-andrews.ac.uk/HistTopics/Indian_numerals/
.
Screen Shot 2020-09-20 at 11.57.13 pm.png
.
/RogerE :D
.

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Thanks Joy for correcting my comment on the 3p Forest Department revenue pair, with the clear explanation of the difference between Hindi and Marathi for the denomination p = pai [paisa].

Thanks too for the link to the post about Bengali = Bangla script and numerals on Tripura stamped paper. That is an excellent detailed instance of numerals and script transcribed, translated, and explained. :D
The post which immediately follows it is highly recommended, as well, because it has much clearer scans of the stamp subjects.

All appreciated and relevant, thanks!

/RogerE :D

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Mongolian Numerals

Recent posts about Mongolian script included a look at numerals on Mongolian banknotes:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=456

Here is a more complete list of the numerals.

The Mongolian numerals

98e9f82cfd18c59af39d91727237a9f7.gif


A comparison of Mongolian and Tibetan numerals
.
The Mongolian numerals have clear similarities to Tibetan numerals:
.
Screen Shot 2020-09-22 at 9.06.41 pm.png
.
The Tibetan numerals are evidently akin to the numerals in the Devanagari,
Gujarati and Gurmukhi scripts, as shown in this recent post:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=461

/RogerE :D

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Tibetan Numerals
.
.<br />Tibetan
.
Tibetan
.
Tibetan script has some evident kinship with Devanagari script, which I hope to discuss in a later post.
For the present, I just want to show the Tibetan numerals, with the Devanagari numerals for comparison.

Tibetan numerals, alongside Devanagari numerals

Screen Shot 2020-09-22 at 11.57.36 pm.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Tibetan#Numerals
.
Tibet, 1933, 4 tanka<br /> ('t' in left panel, '4' in right panel)
Tibet, 1933, 4 tanka
('t' in left panel, '4' in right panel)
.
.<br />Free Tibet cinderellas, 1 tanka<br />('t' in left panel, '1' in right panel)
.
Free Tibet cinderellas, 1 tanka
('t' in left panel, '1' in right panel)
/RogerE :D

User avatar
Panterra
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
RED Shooting Star Posting LEGEND!
Posts: 1629
Joined: 28 Feb 2012 21:54
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by Panterra »

Great coverage of Tibetan and Mongolian, Roger!

Here is the Tibet Government-in-Exile (at Dharamsala, India) issue of 1974 to celebrate the centenary of the Universal Postal Union. They include the Tibetan figure of value as well as the Western Arabic figure. The designs are by Australian artist E. W. Roberts, who also designed stamps for Samoa around the same time.



tibet-74-upu-M.jpg
Tibet 1974 Centenary of the Universal Postal Union, the full set.
Wikipedia wrote:The Central Tibetan Administration (Tibetan: བོད་མིའི་སྒྲིག་འཛུགས་, translated as Exile Tibetan People's Organisation) is Tibet's elected parliamentary government based in Dharamshala, India. It is composed of a judiciary branch, a legislative branch, and an executive branch. The Central Tibetan Administration is also referred to as the Tibetan Government in Exile. Since its formation in 1959, the Central Tibetan Administration has not been officially recognized by China. The Tibetan diaspora and refugees support the Central Tibetan Administration by voting for members of Parliament, the President and by making annual financial contributions through the use of the "Green Book." The Central Tibetan Administration also receives international support from organizations and individuals.

The Central Tibetan Administration's internal structure is governmental; it has stated that it is "not designed to take power in Tibet"; rather, it will be dissolved "as soon as freedom is restored in Tibet" in favor of a government formed by Tibetans inside Tibet. In addition to political representation, it authors reports and press releases, and it administers a network of schools and other cultural activities for Tibetans in India. On 11 February 1991, the Central Tibetan Administration became a founding member of the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization (UNPO) at a ceremony held at the Peace Palace in The Hague, Netherlands.
Rather than just being "cinderellas", these stamps were actually used, and the Indian Post Office permitted mail bearing the stamps to be delivered throughout India. After some years, this came to the attention of the commissars in Beijing, and strenuous protests were made to India. To keep the peace, India asked the Tibetans to desist from using Tibet stamps. Mint and CTO ones are now widely available, but postally-carried covers are the gem that every Tibet collector seeks. 8-)

User avatar
Joy Daschaudhuri
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 3582
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 16:59
Location: Kolkata, India

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

Trivia Question: Which Indian stamp has the word for Bod printed on it?

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Hmm. I tried a few ideas to find an answer to Joy's trivia question, but without success so far. A year of issue would be helpful additional information, if no one else produces thae answer soon...

In the meantime, here's one stamp issue I looked at:
.
.<br />India, 1953: Celebrating the Comquest of Everest, SG 344-5
.
India, 1953: Celebrating the Comquest of Everest, SG 344-5
एवरेस्ट विजय [evərest vijay] — Everest Conquest
Mount Everest is on the border of Nepal and Tibet
The peak is right on the border, at 27°59′17″N 86°55′31″E.

Local names (endonyms) for the mountain:
Nepalese: सगरमाथा [Sagaramāthā] /sʌɡʌrmatʰa/
Tibetan: ཇོ་མོ་གླང་མ [Chomolungma] /ˈtʃəʊməʊˌlɑːŋmə/
.
/RogerE :D

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Nepali numerals and number words

Let's look at another Indian subcontinent language — Nepali.
In this post I want to focus on the numerals and the associated number words.
Nepali script is a close relative of standard Devanagari script, so the numerals are just as expected.
On the other hand, the number words in Nepali are similar to those in Hindi, but not the same.

Nepal definitive (1929), Sc 37
Nepal definitive (1929), Sc 37
.<br />Nepal definitives (1929), Sc 30-36<br />Denominations in पैसा  [paisā] stated in left and right panels
.
Nepal definitives (1929), Sc 30-36
Denominations in पैसा [paisā] stated in left and right panels


Nepali numerals and number words

Here is part of a table from the Omniglot website on Nepali.
As usual, Omniglot is a very user-friendly linguistic website.
A more extensive listing is provided at
https://omniglot.com/language/numbers/nepali.htm

Screen Shot 2020-09-23 at 11.52.31 am.png
Screen Shot 2020-09-23 at 11.53.07 am.png
Screen Shot 2020-09-23 at 11.54.10 am.png
* * * *
Screen Shot 2020-09-23 at 11.55.52 am.png
.
If you look carefully at the pronunciation of the words for 19, 29, 89 and 99 you will discover
something very nice about Nepali numbers. :D

Note: The traditional Nepali calendar uses Bikram Sambat = B.S. [वि.सं] dates, so years differ
from Gregorian by approximately +57. For example, 2020 [CE] = २०७७ [वि.सं].
Can someone please explain why the 1929 stamps appear to have the year 1686 in the lower
left and right panels? (1686 B.S. = 1629 CE).

/RogerE :D

User avatar
nigelc
I was online for our Birthday Number 3!
I was online for our Birthday Number 3!
Posts: 4442
Joined: 10 May 2008 02:36
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by nigelc »

RogerE wrote:
23 Sep 2020 14:29
Can someone please explain why the 1929 stamps appear to have the year 1686 in the lower
left and right panels? (1686 B.S. = 1629 CE).
Hi Roger,

The SG catalogue gives the issue date for this set as "1930 (Aug-Dec)" and describes the date in the lower corners as "B.S. 1986 = 1929/30".
Nigel

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Thanks Nigel = nigelc for the catalogue information, which I don't have access to at present, so had to rely on more limited resources. This must mean that the numerals in the bottom left corners of that set are १९ [19] rather than my reading of them as १६ [16]. In the bottom right corners the numerals are ८६, which I read correctly as 86. I'm still surprised that ९ [9] can be written so that it looks to me like ६ [6], but at least the catalogue version is a more appropriate date.

Some more notes on Nepali numbers

The large number conventions exactly parallel those in Hindi/Devanagari script:
The numbers after one hundred, e.g., the hundreds, the thousands, are named in a regular way, e.g., "ek saye char" /104/, "dui hajar tin saye" /2300/. Every new term greater than a thousand is one hundred times larger than the previous term. Thus, lakh means a hundred thousand, karod means a hundred lakh, and so on...
• Decimal mark: A dot "." is used as decimal mark to separate the integer part from the fractional part of a number written in decimal form.
• Digit grouping: For ease of reading, numbers with many digits are divided into groups using commas as separators. The separators are only employed to the left of the decimal mark. The rightmost three digits are grouped together, but then two digits are grouped together thereafter, e.g., 1,23,45,67,890.
https://nepalilanguage.org/numbers/
The Bikram Sambat

Nepali Calendar —> Western Calendar
वि.सं Bikram Sambat = BS —> Gregorian = CE/AD
७ असोज २०७७ [7 Asōja 2077] = 23 Sept 2020
१६ जेष्ठ २०१० [16 Jēṣṭha 2010] = 29 May 1953 [Date Mt Everest first conquered]
https://www.hamropatro.com/date-converter
https://www.ashesh.com.np/nepali-date-converter.php
Bikram Samwat/ Bikram Sambat, Devanagari:बिक्रम संवत, abbreviated: B.S., is the calendar established by Indian emperor Vikramaditya. It is the official calendar of Nepal. In addition to Bikram Samwat, the Gregorian calendar and the Newari calendar, Nepal Sambat, are also used in Nepal.

The Bikram Sambat is a solar calendar based on ancient Hindu tradition. The calendar is 56.7 years ahead (in count) of the solar Gregorian calendar. For example, the year 2056 BS began in AD 1999 and ended in AD 2000. The calendar starts with the first day of the month Baisakh, which usually falls on the 13th or 14th of April in the Gregorian calendar.

The basic formula of conversion:
Nepali Date to Western: Subtract - 56 Years - 8 Months - 17 Days
Western Date to Nepali Date: Add - 56 Years - 8 Months - 17 Days

Nepali months, in order
.
Screen Shot 2020-09-24 at 2.45.25 am.png
https://calendars.wikia.org/wiki/Bikram_Samwat
/RogerE :D

User avatar
Joy Daschaudhuri
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 3582
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 16:59
Location: Kolkata, India

Re: Variations of Derivatives of Devnagari Numerals Used in India

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

The problem arose because what is missing here is the array of variations of derivatives of Devnagari numerals used in India.

03003f35.jpg

User avatar
Joy Daschaudhuri
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 3582
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 16:59
Location: Kolkata, India

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

RogerE wrote:
23 Sep 2020 12:47
Hmm. I tried a few ideas to find an answer to Joy's trivia question, but without success so far. A year of issue would be helpful additional information, if no one else produces thae answer soon...
Clue 1: The word actually appears on several stamp series, issued in 1884, 1897, 1911, 1933 and 1941.

Clue 2: The stamps were issued by an Indian Feudatory State.

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: More on numerals and their names in northern India

Post by RogerE »

Reading year dates on Nepali stamps
Joy Daschaudhuri wrote:
24 Sep 2020 04:11
The problem arose because what is missing here is the array of variations of derivatives of Devnagari numerals used in India.
Thank you Joy, that is exactly the cause of the problem I had with the year numerals on the Nepali stamps.
Near the bottom of the list of variants for '9' is the form the character has on the stamps, and it is clear how similar that form is to the version of '6' on the stamps.

Here is a further look at numerals in scripts of northern India, and associated number words:

Bengali numerals, and their names in languages of northern India
.
Screen Shot 2020-09-24 at 9.56.20 am.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali%E2%80%93Assamese_script
.
data=NSkKa3CgeyhQlf0tIDj9pbTfHtrdR1MDnYfIqtXv2JdKkwmu6SJN1ejspBkzK3Nr4wtZeJDFMz0BRbX8L0utFpSRlYj5CSjkH6Oy5Y1rL6zyV9MkdDDiOGpIw83uogRjrkWk-4oQfLRJMD0DTb8vqQ.png
Northeast Indian subcontinent, including Bangladesh, Bhutan, and Nepal,
as well as Assam, West Bengal and other Indian states
.


Meitei/Manipuri language
.
Screen Shot 2020-09-24 at 10.46.29 am.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meitei_language
.
Manipuri language, Manipuri Meiteilon, also called Meitei (Meetei), a Tibeto-Burman language spoken predominantly in Manipur, a northeastern state of India. Smaller speech communities exist in the Indian states of Assam, Mizoram, and Tripura, as well as in Bangladesh and Myanmar (Burma).
Writing system: Meitei script.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Manipuri-language


Sylheti language
.
Screen Shot 2020-09-24 at 10.40.23 am.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylheti_language
Sylheti (ꠍꠤꠟꠐꠤ / • ছিলটী)
Sylheti is an eastern Indo-Aryan language spoken mainly in the Sylhet ( ꠍꠤꠟꠐ / সিলেট) region of Bangladesh, and the neighbouring Barak Valley in the Indian state of Assam. There are also speakers of Sylheti in the Indian states of Meghalaya, Tripura and Manipur, as well as in the USA and UK. In 2007 there were about 11 million speakers of Sylheti.
https://omniglot.com/writing/syloti.htm


Maithili language
.
Screen Shot 2020-09-24 at 11.09.03 am.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maithili_language
.
Maithili /ˈmaɪtɪli/, Maithilī [ˈməi̯tʰɪli], is an Indo-Aryan language native to the Indian subcontinent, mainly spoken in India and Nepal. In India, it is spoken in the states of Bihar and Jharkhand and is one of the 22 recognised Indian languages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maithili_language
.
/RogerE :D

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Currency numbers on North Borneo stamps

Post by RogerE »

In the Engraved stamp beauties thread, stallzer recently posted [Fri Sep 25, 2020 09:57:22 am}
some lovely images of North Borneo stamps in two consecutive posts, the first of which is:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16852&hilit ... start=4035

In 1939 the Malay denominations were expressed in Arabic script, while the Chinese equivalents were in normal Chinese characters (except for a banker's numeral on the high value stamp).

Currency numbers in Malay and in Chinese
.
North Borneo 1939 2C.jpg
.
دوا سنت [dua sent] — two cents
二先 [èr xiān] — two cents
[xiān] — first Probably used because sound suggests "cent"
.
North Borneo 1939 3C (1).jpg
.
تيغا سنت [tiga sent] — three cents
三先 [sān xiān] — three cents
.
North Borneo 1939 4C.jpg
.
أمبات سنت [empat sent] — four cents
四先 [sì xiān] — four cents
.
North Borneo 1939 6C.jpg
.
أمبات سنت [enam sent] — six cents
六先 [liù xiān] — six cents
.
North Borneo 1939 8C.jpg
.
أديلابان سنت [delapan sent] — eight cents
八先 [bā xiān] — eight cents
.
North Borneo 1939 10C.jpg
.
سبولوه سنت [sepuluh sent] — ten cents
十先 [shí xiān] — ten cents
/RogerE :D

User avatar
Joy Daschaudhuri
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 3582
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 16:59
Location: Kolkata, India

Re: Jammu and Kashmir 1897 2A JK Coat of Arms Telegraph Stamp (Hiscocks 16/SG T16)

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

Since no one is interested to try, here is the answer to the trivia question.

In India, the country Bod is called Tibbat and it appears in all telegraph stamps of Jammu and Kashmir.

Here is an example of the word, marked within two vertical green lines in Jammu and Kashmir 1897 2A JK Coat of Arms bright reddish violet and olive brown telegraph stamp (Hiscocks 16/SG T16).

IMG_20200925_234503.jpg

User avatar
Joy Daschaudhuri
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 3582
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 16:59
Location: Kolkata, India

Re: Datiya State Post Postage Due Postmark

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

Another question for RogerE: What is the amount of postage due in manuscript in this Datiya State Post postage due mark?

IMG_20200925_235947.jpg

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Datiya State Post Postage Due Postmark

Post by RogerE »

Thanks Joy. Not that I was uninterested in your Bod = Tibbat challenge, but I simply didn't have time to go searching for the solution — it turns out that there are several areas of specialised knowledge involved, and I don't think I would have solved it even if I had put in more time... ;)

The Jammu and Kashmir telegraph stamp you showed us is a lovely revenue stamp, and you marked off the occurrence of "Bod" for our attention in the right corner of the top inscription. The Hindi form तिब्बत [tibbat] — Tibet looks very much like the word you marked for attention. I'm guessing that the actual text is "Tibbat" (rather than "Bod") in Dogri script. Joy, could you please do the "three trans" for us — transcribe, transliterate and translate the text across the top of the telegraph stamp? Thanks!

._o_O_o_.
Joy Daschaudhuri wrote:
26 Sep 2020 05:36
Another question for RogerE: What is the amount of postage due in manuscript in this Datiya State Post postage due mark?
Image
• First, let's note the variety of Romanised spellings: Datiya = Duttiah = Datia (and probably there are more!)
— The current Hindi script version is हिंदी [Datia]
• Second, linguistics: "At the time of the 2011 Census of India, 99.27% of the population in the [Datia] district spoke Hindi as their first language." (Wikipedia).
• Third, let's check on geography and a little history:
Wikipedia wrote:Datia is the district headquarters of the Datia District in north central Madhya Pradesh, a state of Central India. It is an ancient town, mentioned in the Mahabharata ruled by King 'Dantavakra'. The town is 69 km from Gwalior, 325 km south of New Delhi and 320 km north of Bhopal. About 15 km from Datia is Sonagiri, a sacred Jain hill. Datia is also about 34 km from Jhansi, Uttar Pradesh and 52 km from Orchha. The nearest airport is at Gwalior. It was formerly the seat of the eponymous princely state in the British Raj. Datia is situated near Gwalior and on the border with Uttar Pradesh (U.P.).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datia
• Fourth, let's look at currency:
Wikipedia wrote:An anna (or ānna) was a currency unit formerly used in British India, equal to ​1⁄16 of a rupee. It was subdivided into four (old) Paisa or twelve pies (thus there were 192 pies in a rupee). When the rupee was decimalised and subdivided into 100 (new) paise, one anna was therefore equivalent to 6.25 paise...
For example, in Hindi:
दो रुपए एक आना तीन पैसे दो पाई
[do rupe ek āna teen paise do paee]
two rupees one anna three paise two pies
Rs 2/1/3/2
Wikipedia wrote:Notation: The first number is the number of rupees, the second is the number of annas (1/16), the third is the number of paise (1/64), and the fourth is the number of pies (1/192).
Example: Rs 1/15/3/2 = Rs 1.9947
[My calculation: 1+15/16+3/64+2/192 = 1.99479... which actually rounds to 1.9948]
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Indian_anna
• Fifth, let's check on manuscript versions of Hindi numerals:
.
Handwritten-Devanagari-Numerals-Samples-Table-1-Distribution-of-numerals-in-Devanagari.png
https://tinyurl.com/yyzssyza

A suggested answer to Joy's challenge

It does not look like Devanagari numerals are being used (so far as indicated by the handwritten samples above), so my guess is that the "simplified" notation in the Datia postage due marking is more like tally marks than Devanagari numerals.

Based on the information gathered, I am guessing that the handwritten amount of postage due is 1/1 = 1 anna + 1 paisa = 5 paise = 1.25 anna.

From his vantage point of expert knowledge and relevant reference works, Joy will be able to comment, correct and reveal all for us. :D

/RogerE :D

User avatar
Joy Daschaudhuri
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 3582
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 16:59
Location: Kolkata, India

Re: Takri Inscriptions on Jammu and Kashmir 1897 2A Hiscocks 16/SG T16 Telegraph Stamp

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

RogerE wrote:
26 Sep 2020 16:33
Thanks Joy. Not that I was uninterested in your Bod = Tibbat challenge, but I simply didn't have time to go searching for the solution — it turns out that there are several areas of specialised knowledge involved, and I don't think I would have solved it even if I had put in more time... ;)
Well Roger, I thought you were disinterested when I saw you jumping to Kalimantan proboscis monkey and orang utan. :roll:
RogerE wrote:
26 Sep 2020 16:33
I'm guessing that the actual text is "Tibbat" (rather than "Bod") in Dogri script.
The script in the top panel of Jammu and Kashmir 1897 2A Hiscocks 16/SG T16 is Ṭākrī.
Ḍogrī is the language, not the script.

It is similar to the fact that the language is Maḷayālam but the script in which it is written, is called Kairālī.

I typed the inscriptions in Takri in MS Word but when I copy-pasted that here, all characters became boxes. ☹️

So, I have marked in the panel, where each word ends.

IMG_20200926_130954.jpg

Transliteration :
Riyāsat Jambū va Kāśhmīr Tibbat Hā

Translation:

Riyāsat means (feudatory) state.

Jambū is the Dogri endonym of Jammū.

va means "and".

means "etc.".

Here Tibbat refers to the regions of Ladakh and Gilgit-Baltistan (now in Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir or POK), which were part of Jammu and Kashmir state.

Ladakh was annexed in 1834 and Gilgit-Baltistan in 1839 by Zorawarsinh Harisinh Kahluriya (1786–1841), General of the Army of Gulabsinh Kishorsinh Jamwal (1792–1857), the first ruler of Jammu and Kashmir state.

India 2000 Zorawarsinh Harisinh Kahluriya (1786–1841) [₹3.00] Stamp
India 2000 Zorawarsinh Harisinh Kahluriya (1786–1841) [₹3.00] Stamp
India 2009 Gulabsinh Kishorsinh Jamwal (1792–1857) [₹5.00] Stamp
India 2009 Gulabsinh Kishorsinh Jamwal (1792–1857) [₹5.00] Stamp

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Thank you Joy, very good feedback, much appreciated (and adding relevant stamp images is excellent).

I appreciate that clarification distinguishing language names from the name of the script they use.
In particular:
• the Ḍogrī language is written in Ṭākrī script;
• the Maḷayālam language is written in Kairālī script.

So, thanks to your latest post, we now know that the top inscription on that nice Jammu and Kashmir telegraph stamp is Ḍogrī . It is written in Ṭākrī script, and means "The (Feudatory) State of Jammu and Kashmir, Ladakh and Gilgit-Baltistan ["Indian Tibet"] etc."

Your work-around solution to the problem that Stampboards does not support characters in Ṭākrī script is a good solution, and helps us parse the text. I have encountered similar difficulties with trying to paste in text to posts on Stampboards, only to find that they are only partially supported, or not supported at all. I've had this problem (in recent posts in this thread) with powers of ten being written with superscripts, only to find the superscript numbers descend to appear as on-line digits the same size as the base digits. My recent work-around was to compose the text in a Word document, take a screen shot of it, and paste the screen shot into my post. Not very flexible, but it allows the desired format to appear in the post.

Ṭākrī script

Let's have a closer look at the Ṭākrī script.
.
Screen Shot 2020-09-27 at 12.14.14 am.png
.
In Devanagari script: टाकरी [Ṭākrī]

Wikipedia wrote:The Takri alphabet ... is found mainly in the Hill States such as Chamba, Himachal Pradesh, Uttrakhand and surrounding areas, where it is called Chambyali, and in Jammu Division, where it is known as Dogri. The local Takri variants got the status of official scripts in some of the Punjab Hill States, and were used for both administrative and literary purposes until the 19th century. After 1948, when Himachal Pradesh was established as an administrative unit, the local Takri variants were replaced by Devanagari.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takri_script
Here is the standard Ṭākrī character set, followed by the Devanagari character set in the same format.
The top line is the stand-alone vowel set, the rest are the consonants, in standard phonetic arrangement:
.
Ṭākrī
.
Tkalp.png
.
Devanagari
.
Dvalp.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takri_script
/RogerE :D

P.S. I try to respond to current "topics", to contribute to current interest, hence my post about the North Borneo stamps. I didn't have time to complete that topic, so I'll return to it in my next post.

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Currency numbers on North Borneo stamps (cont.)

Post by RogerE »

Here are the higher denomination North Borneo stamps from the 1939 set. Let's continue to look at the Malay denominations, expressed in Arabic script, and the Chinese equivalents in normal Chinese characters (except for a banker's numeral on the highest value stamp shown).

Currency numbers in Malay and in Chinese
.
North Borneo 1939 12C.jpg
.
دوا باس سنت [dua belas sent] — twelve cents
十二先 [shíèr xiān] — twelve cents
.
North Borneo 1939 15C.jpg
.
ليم باس سنت [lima belas sent] — fifteen cents
十五先 [shíwǔ xiān] — fifteen cents
.
IMG_20180213_0001.jpg

.
دوا بوله سنت [dua puluh sent] — twenty cents
二十先 [èrshí xiān] — twenty cents
.
IMG_20180213_0002.jpg
.
دوا بوله ليم سنت [dua puluh lima sent] — twenty-five cents
二十五先 [èrshíwǔ xiān] — twenty-five cents
.
IMG_20180213_0003.jpg
.
ليم بوله سنت [lima puluh sent] — fifty cents
五十先 [wǔshí xiān] — fifty cents
.
IMG_20180207_0001.jpg
ساتو رينجت [satu ringgit] — one dollar
壹圓 [yī yuán] — one dollar

The traditional Chinese character [yuán] has the simplified Chinese equivalent
To see the traditional Chinese character written in stroke order,
and some common phrases using it, check out the website
https://dictionary.writtenchinese.com/worddetail/yuan/9811/1/2

/RogerE :D

User avatar
Joy Daschaudhuri
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 3582
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 16:59
Location: Kolkata, India

Re: Merchants' Notations on Indian Feudatory States Stamps and Postmarks

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

RogerE wrote:
26 Sep 2020 16:33
A suggested answer to Joy's challenge

It does not look like Devanagari numerals are being used (so far as indicated by the handwritten samples above), so my guess is that the "simplified" notation in the Datia postage due marking is more like tally marks than Devanagari numerals.

Based on the information gathered, I am guessing that the handwritten amount of postage due is 1/1 = 1 anna + 1 paisa = 5 paise = 1.25 anna.

From his vantage point of expert knowledge and relevant reference works, Joy will be able to comment, correct and reveal all for us. :D

/RogerE :D
Image

The manuscript figure J|| in the Datiya postage due mark indicates ½ Ānā.

This type of shorthand code numbers denoting particular currency value, was originally developed and used by the traders in North and West India for bookkeeping and hence these are called merchants' notations which were liberally used on Indian Feudatory States postage/telegraph/fiscal stamps and covers/fiscal documents.

Here are some examples of the merchant's notation of ½ Ana on some IFS stamps, enclosed in color.

Charkhari 1930 ½A SG 38
Charkhari 1930 ½A SG 38
Jammu and Kashmir 1866 ½A SG 1
Jammu and Kashmir 1866 ½A SG 1
Jammu and Kashmir 1899 ½A Hiscocks 22/SG T22
Jammu and Kashmir 1899 ½A Hiscocks 22/SG T22

Similarly, merchants' notation for 2A can be found on the JK 1897 2A Hiscocks 16/SG T16 telegraph stamp, already posted.

User avatar
Joy Daschaudhuri
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 3582
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 16:59
Location: Kolkata, India

Re: Complete List of Merchants' Notations on Indian Feudatory States Postage/Telegraph/Fiscal Stamps

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

Complete List of Merchants' Notations Used on Indian Feudatory States Stamps

IMG_20200611_144602.jpg

Ref. The Stamps of Jammu and Kashmir
Johan Frederik Staal.
The Collectors' Club, New York, USA 1983
Chapter V: The Denominations of the Circular Stamps
The Merchants' Notation; p.60

IMG_20200927_000843.jpg

Ref. The Court Fee and Revenue Stamps of the Princely States of India An Encyclopedia and Reference Manual (Vol.I: The Adhesive Stamps)
Adolph Köppel and Raymond D Manners.
The Fiscal Philatelic Foundation, Incorporated, Mineola, USA 1983
The Linear System of Numerals; p.19

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Indian merchant numerals

Post by RogerE »

Thank you Joy for the details about Indian merchant numerals. It's helpful to have
the extensive lists compiled by Johan Frederik Staal, and Adolph Köppel and
Raymond D Manners
. I'm sure others will find those useful for future reference.

It turns out that although my guessed answer to your challenge was not correct,
it was not entirely wrong. The merchant numerals really are a kind of tally mark.
The "indicator" mark (shaped like Latin 'J') serves to separate the whole anna count
(to the left of 'J') from the paise count (to the right of 'J'). The vertical "tally marks"
to the right of 'J' are like Roman numerals I, II, III (which originated the same way).
The maximum number of paise that would need to be represented is three, since
4 paise = 1 anna, so the problem of contracting four vertical tally marks doesn't arise).

The horizontal "tally marks" to the left of 'J' work similarly, but now like Chinese
numerals 一, 二, 三 (which also originated the same way), and here a vertical "tally
mark" I is conventionally the count of four horizontal marks (for brevity). Because
16 annas = 1 rupee, 15 = 3x4+3 = III三 is the greatest number of annas that needs
to be represented (and the problem of representing four vertical "tally marks"
does not arise!).

When it comes to whole numbers of rupees, the "proper" Devanagari numerals are
used to the left of 'J' (as indicated by Köppel & Manners).

/RogerE :D

P.S. Incidentally, Roman numerals sometimes used IIII for four, as old-fashioned
clockfaces often showed. The Roman brief notation for five tally marks was V,
half of X = V + Λ. Thus Roman conventions were influenced by base 10 (though
Roman numerals are not a place-value decimal system), whereas the Indian
merchant numerals are influenced by base 4.

User avatar
Joy Daschaudhuri
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 3582
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 16:59
Location: Kolkata, India

Re: Brāhmī Numerals and Its Evolved Variants

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

RogerE wrote:
28 Sep 2020 02:55
The horizontal "tally marks" to the left of 'J' work similarly, but now like Chinese numerals 一, 二, 三 (which also originated the same way), and here a vertical "tally mark" I is conventionally the count of four horizontal marks (for brevity). Because 16 annas = 1 rupee, 15 = 3x4+3 = III三 is the greatest number of annas that needs to be represented (and the problem of representing four vertical "tally marks" does not arise!).
The horizontal strokes in merchants' notations developed from Brāhmī numerals and its evolved variants.

IMG_20200927_220857.jpg

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Thanks for that latest post Joy. Could you please add an acknowledgement of the source of that latest list of numerals?

/RogerE :D

User avatar
Joy Daschaudhuri
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 3582
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 16:59
Location: Kolkata, India

Re: Brāhmī Numerals and Its Evolved Variants

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

Ref. The Hindu–Arabic Numerals.
David Eugene Smith and Louis Charles Karpinski.
Ginn and Company, Publishers, Boston, USA 1911
Chapter II: Early Hindu Forms with No Place Value
Table Showing the Progress of Number Forms in India; p.25

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Thank you Joy. That makes the record explicit (permanently useful for reference), as well as acknowledging the research and efforts of the original authors — David Eugene Smith and Louis Charles Karpinski.

That sets a fine standard for others to emulate in their posts :D

/RogerE :D

User avatar
Joy Daschaudhuri
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 3582
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 16:59
Location: Kolkata, India

Re: Denomination of Bāmaṇḍā 1888 1st Issue Postage Stamp

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

Challenge 3 for RogerE:
Find the denomination in the following postage stamp of the Indian Feudatory State of Bāmaṇḍā.

2282.jpg

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Tackling Joy's latest challenge.

(1) The Indian Feudatory State of Bamra = Bamanda = Bāmaṇḍā
Bamra State or Bamanda State, covering an area of 5149 sqkm, was one of the princely states of India during the period of the British Raj, its capital was in Debagarh/Deogarh. Bamra State acceded to India in 1948...

The state was one of the five Orissa Tributary States which were transferred from the Central Provinces to Bengal on the reconstitution of that province in October 1905...

The Bengal-Nagpur Railway passed through the northeastern part of Bamra, with two stations in the state: Bamra Road and Garpos. The state was under the political control of the Commissioner of the Chhattisgarh Division of the Central Provinces until 1905, under the Bengal Presidency until 1912, under the Bihar and Orissa Province until 1936 and under Orissa Province until it ceased to be a princely state. On 1 January 1948 Bamra's last princely ruler signed the accession to the Indian Union.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamra_State
(2) Recognising the language and script

The official language of Odisha/Orissa is Odia/Oriya, one of the 22 official languages of India.
It is the first language of about 84% of the state's population. It is also the second language of Jharkhand.
Christer Brunström wrote:The State of Bamra's imperforate stamps had a very simple design with two lines in English, the third line with the denomination in the Odia/Oriya language and finally an ornament which is supposed to depict an elephant's trunk holding a stick.
http://www.koalastamps.com/pdf/india-states-bamra.pdf
(3) Odia/Oriya script, with numerals

I made a post about Odia/Oriya earlier in this thread, at
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=378

That post didn't include the numerals, so let's look at them now:
.
Screen Shot 2020-09-28 at 11.47.29 pm.png
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odia_script
.
(4) Reading the inscription in the stamp
.
2282.jpg
.
My best transcription and transliteration of the key third line of text on the stamp is
.
ମାସୁଲୱ ୦୩ [māsulwa 03] (?)
or
ମାସୁଲଝ ୦୩ [māsuljha 03] (?)
or
ମାସୁଲ ଅ୦୩ [māsul a03] (?)
.
I hope that Joy will transcribe, transliterate and translate the line of text for us.
If I have identified the numerals correctly, I propose: 0 paise 3 pies = 1 paise = ¼ anna. (?)
I think I have not done very well on this assignment. :(

/RogerE :D

User avatar
The Pom
I was online for Post Number 4 MILLION!
I was online for Post Number 4 MILLION!
Posts: 11430
Joined: 02 May 2007 08:08
Location: Great Britain

Re: Denomination of Bāmaṇḍā 1888 1st Issue Postage Stamp

Post by The Pom »

Joy Daschaudhuri wrote:
28 Sep 2020 20:49
Challenge 3 for RogerE:
Find the denomination in the following postage stamp of the Indian Feudatory State of Bāmaṇḍā.

Image
MODERATOR COMMENT

Here's a challenge for Joy Daschaudhuri,

As you were requested here:

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=6815987#p6815987

Please use the commonly used names for places, rather than historical or local names.

Use of such little-known place names ultimately detracts from Stampboards as a knowledge resource - searches for information are most likely to use current/more widely known place names. Nobody who is searching Bamra stamps will ever google "Bāmaṇḍā".

Moving forward, it would be very much appreciated if you could adhere to more widely known place names. You are, of course, welcome to ALSO reference more esoteric/local/historic versions of place names at the same time if you wish.

Thanks
Always on the lookout for Australian pre decimal First Day Covers.

User avatar
Joy Daschaudhuri
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
2500 Stampboards Post - Senior Guru
Posts: 3582
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 16:59
Location: Kolkata, India

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by Joy Daschaudhuri »

Terminate my membership. I will not comply.

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

A further note on that early stamp issue of Bamra = Bamanda = Bāmaṇḍā
RogerE wrote:
29 Sep 2020 01:50
.
Reading the inscription on the stamp
.
Image
.
My best transcription and transliteration of the key third line of text on the stamp is
.
ମାସୁଲୱ ୦୩ [māsulwa 03] (?)
It turns out that ମାସୁଲ [māsul] here corresponds to "postage", and the denomination
is indeed 3 pies [pai], appearing in the text as .
It is preceded by a fancy ଟଂ [Ṭaŋ] used as a currency indicator, derived from the currency tangka.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odia_script

Functionally ଟଂ [Ṭaŋ] serves a purpose like '£' (historically, a fancy capital L for Libra = pound in Latin).

The currency symbol can also be compared with modern Indian use of , the rupee symbol.
This is based on the first character of
रुपया [rupayā] — rupee.
[r, ra], रु [ru]; [p, pa]; [y, ya], या [yā].
The Indian rupee sign (sign:; code: INR) is the currency symbol for the Indian rupee, the official currency of India. Designed by Udaya Kumar, it was presented to the public by the Government of India on 15 July 2010, following its selection through an "open" competition among Indian residents.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_rupee_sign

/RogerE :D

User avatar
Bennich
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 140
Joined: 18 Jun 2016 23:36
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by Bennich »

Hi All,

I’m very sorry indeed to see Joy taking umbrage at Moderator comments regarding the common use of place names. It’s a tragedy when rules collide with principles and the two cannot be reconciled.

Joy’s knowledge is superlative and it would be a huge loss for Stampboards users if it were no longer available, especially when given so freely.

I completely understand the logic in encouraging the use of common place names but, on the other hand, I can live with the ‘quirks’ of others. I reside in Greece, Hellas to the Greeks and Yūnānistan to the Turks. We live with the differences.

It’s part of the joy of languages (no pun intended!)

Cheers, Ben

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

I share your disappointment over that turn of events Bennich.
It would benefit us all if some diplomacy could negotiate a way from the inflexibility.

But let's move on with the present thread, and focus on its theme of stamps motivating
us to engage with languages.

_______________________________________________________________

Polynesian Languages

A number of posts in this thread have discussed Polynesian languages, including Māori.
It is pleasing to see philatelic appearance of these languages is increasing, signalling a
growing social recognition and appreciation of their importance in preserving culture.
A recent group begins with the post

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=90529&start=411
and in fact the group at 411–417 are all on that language family.

Several Pacific nations have issued Language Week stamps in recent years.
Here I want to show you an example from Niue.
But first the context: where is Niue? How does its language relate to others in the region?

Niue
.<br />Flag of Niue
.
Flag of Niue
Pacific islands are relatively tiny specs in a vast ocean, so it's not easy to show their location well on a map.
This map is good for seeing Niue's location relative to New Zealand and Australia, but it vastly exaggerates the size of the island itself.
.
.<br />Relative location of Niue
.
Relative location of Niue
Niue is an island country in the South Pacific Ocean, 2,400 kilometres northeast of New Zealand. Niue's land area is about 261 square kilometres.
.<br />Satellite image of Niue
.
Satellite image of Niue
It is known for its limestone cliffs and coral-reef dive sites. Migrating whales swim in Niue's waters between July and October. In the southeast is the Huvalu Forest Conservation Area, where trails through fossilised coral forests lead to the Togo and Vaikona chasms. The northwest is home to the rock pools of Avaiki Cave and the naturally formed Talava Arches.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niue
.<br />Niue, 1976: Food and agriculture definitive set
.
Niue, 1976: Food and agriculture definitive set
.
Niuean language
Niuean /njuˈeɪən/, ko e vagahau Niuē, is a Polynesian language, belonging to the Malayo-Polynesian subgroup of the Austronesian languages. It is most closely related to Tongan and slightly more distantly to other Polynesian languages such as Māori, Samoan, and Hawaiian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niuean_language
That Wikipedia article is the source of all further quotes in this post.
.
Here is Niue's Language Week minisheet (2016) that motivated this post:
.
.<br />Niue, 2016, Niuean Language Week set of four, featuring basic Niuean phrases.
.
Niue, 2016, Niuean Language Week set of four, featuring basic Niuean phrases.
.
The traditional alphabet order, given with the traditional names of the letters, is
ā, ē, ī, ō, ū, fā, gā, hā, kā, lā, mō, nū, pī, tī, vī, rō, sā.
Note that and , as introduced letters, are ordered at the end.

Niuean orthography is largely phonemic; that is, one letter stands for one sound and vice versa.

As with many languages, writing was brought to Niue in connection with religion, in this case with Christianity by missionaries educated in Samoa. This has led to some Samoan influences in morphology and grammar and also to a noticeable influence in spelling: as in Samoan, the sound /ŋ/ is written g, rather than ng as in Tongan and some other Polynesian languages.
.
Niuean numbers
.
I find the numbers ua and lima reflect a striking similarity with Malay duatwo and limafive.
.
Screen Shot 2020-10-04 at 12.25.12 am.png
• Four is rendered either or fa.
,
Niuean pronouns

Characteristic of Polynesian languages, the pronouns are more complex and nuanced than in typical European languages. The dual form applies for two people, and the plural for more than two.
Niuean pronouns are differentiated by person and number. Furthermore, first person dual and plural pronouns distinguish inclusive and exclusive forms (including and excluding the listener, respectively). However, they are not differentiated by gender or case; for example, ia means both he and she, him and her. Inanimates ['it'] are not usually pronominalised. The Niuean pronouns are:
.
Screen Shot 2020-10-04 at 12.25.45 am.png
Niuean sentence structure

Sentence structure has been classified as VSO = Verb, then subject, then object.
Compare

Kua kitia e ia e kalahimu
TENSE see AGENT he ARTICLE crab
The crab was seen by him = He saw the crab
and

Kua kitia e kalahimu
TENSE see ARTICLE crab
The crab was seen
Again, using numbers:
Ne taha e fufua moa i loto he kato
PAST one ART egg chicken LOC inside GEN basket
There was one egg in the basket
Literally: "Was one an egg inside the basket"

or

Tolu e tama fuata ne oatu ke takafaga
three ART child youth REL go GOAL hunt
Three young men went out hunting
Literally: "Three (were) the young men who went out to hunt"
/RogerE :D

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Polynesian languages cont.

Language Week has also been celebrated by Tokelau.

Once again, let's look at the context before we look at the stamps.
Where is Tokelau? How does its language relate to neighbouring languages?

Tokelau
.<br />Flag of Tokelau
.
Flag of Tokelau
Tokelau includes three atolls in the South Pacific Ocean between longitudes 171° and 173° W and between latitudes 8° and 10° S, about midway between Hawaii and New Zealand.
.<br />Location map of Tokelau
.
Location map of Tokelau
It has a combined land area of 10.8 sq.km. The atolls each have a number of coral islands, where the villages are situated. The highest point of Tokelau is just 5 metres above sea level

From Atafu in the north to Fakaofo in the south, Tokelau extends for less than 200 km. The atolls lie about 500 kilometres north of Samoa.
.<br />Tokelau — satellite image
.
Tokelau — satellite image
.<br />Tokelau, 1989, Food gathering, set of 6 definitives
.
Tokelau, 1989, Food gathering, set of 6 definitives
Tokelauan language
Tokelauan /toʊkəˈlaʊən/ is a Polynesian language spoken in Tokelau and on Swains Island (or Olohega) in American Samoa. It is closely related to Tuvaluan and is related to Samoan and other Polynesian languages. Tokelauan has a co-official status with English in Tokelau.
Tokelauan is mutually intelligible with the Tuvaluan language. Samoan literature is recognised mostly due to the early introduction of Christian Samoan missionaries to which the Samoan language was held as the language of instruction at school and at church. It also has marked similarities to the Niuafo'ou language of Tonga.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokelauan_language
That Wikipedia link is the source for the quoted material in the remainder of this post.

Tokelauan Language Week

Here are the Language Week stamp issues which motivated this post:
.
.<br />Tokelau, 2015, Language week, set of 10
.
Tokelau, 2015, Language week, set of 10
.<br />Tokelau, 2016, Language Week minisheet
.
Tokelau, 2016, Language Week minisheet
.
Note that ika fish is cognate with Malay ikanfish.
.
Tokelauan alphabet
Its alphabet consists of 5 vowels: a /a/, e /e/, i /i/, o /o/ and u /u/.
and 10 consonants: /p t k f v h m n ŋ l/, Note that /ŋ/ is spelled g
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokelauan_language
Tokelauan numbers

Once again, I find the numbers lua and lima reflect a striking similarity with Malay duatwo and limafive.
Screen Shot 2020-10-04 at 5.19.55 am.png
Screen Shot 2020-10-04 at 5.20.47 am.png
Tokelauan possessive pronouns

Once again we see the tendency of Polynesian languages to give a rich and nuanced set of pronouns.
The possessive pronouns distinguish two major categories:
(a) predicative possessive pronouns (such as "the book is mine");
(b) premodifying possessive pronouns (such as "this is my book").
Here are just the type (a) possessive pronouns:
.
Screen Shot 2020-10-04 at 5.24.47 am.png
.
The type (b) possessive pronouns are much more extensive. They are tabulated at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokelauan_language

Sample Tokelauan constructions
.
ka - FUTURE, ka fano - will go
koi - PRESENT CONTINUOUS, koi ola - still alive
kua - PAST, Kua hau te tino - has arrived the/a man = A/The man has arrived.

ananafi - yesterday
ātaeao - tomorrow morning
Ko te povi e kai mutia - cows eat grass
E i ei ni tuhi? - Are there any books?

/RogerE :D

User avatar
RogerE
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 18381
Joined: 08 Apr 2019 18:56
Location: WALLSEND, NSW, Australia

Re: Stamps motivate us to engage with languages

Post by RogerE »

Polynesian languages cont.

Language Week in Tokelau.

The text on the Tokelauan stamp images in the previous post is not as clear as I would
have liked, so here is a supplementary listing of the Tokulauan, for easier reading:
.
Image
.
Vaiaho o te gaganaLanguage week.

2015 set:
1. tahi te falaone pandanus tree
2. lua ia tulumatwo tackle boxes
3. tolu ia motuthree atolls
4. fā ia olofour wickets
5. lima ia tupafive crabs
6. ono ia lelefuasix butterflies
7. fitu ia ikaseven fish
8. valu ia ilieight fans
9. iva vakanine canoes
10. hefulu ia matauten fishhooks
.
Image
.
Vaiaho o te gaganaLanguage week.

2016 set:
popococonut
ugaugacoconut crab
ikafish
fuāulu breadfruit
.
/RogerE :D

Post Reply

Return to “Discuss stamps - and *anything* at ALL happening with stamps”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Berlin-Gus, ebay and 7 guests