Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »


ViccyVFU wrote: 25 Nov 2021 03:23 Actually, I think its the one lot in the sale where you have to pre-register "for approval to bid".

So whilst the item on offer is "self authenticating***", you will need to go through the formal hoops of "proper due diligence".

MJ's pet wrote: 20 Nov 2021 11:24 It is a "Premium Lot" that one has to pre-register for to bid on. Financial references may be required. (Like those provided by Mark Holyoake to the Candy's? :lol: ).

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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

Here is another document, from the Perkins Bacon Day Book, to go with the others here. What is obvious is the stamps were printed by order of warrant, and had to be accounted for. There never was, random, stray or extra sheets floating around for distribution to interested people other than what is articulated in the records. Stamps were like currency and the printer was like Fort Knox.

PB sheets printed Pearson.png
Perkins Bacon Day Book
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

One hopes that the RPSL, BPA and ABPS (Association of British Philatelic Societies, which runs the RDP) all are writing to Sotheby's, Scotland Yard and the Serious Fraud Office to complain about Sotheby's hoax offering of The Wallace Document.

In addition, the Philatelic Traders' Society (PTS) should also be lodging complaints with the above.

Scotland Yard and the Serious Fraud will pay for more attention to an organisational complaint than some random person. These organisations represent thousands of collectors and dealers in the UK and elsewhere.

People will point out that Sotheby's is not a PTS member. Correct, but the PTS has a interest in the proper functioning of the philatelic market according to commercial integrity and the law.

It is not in the interests of dealers and collectors at a GBP 6 Million + item is mis-described and presented as something it is not. It is not the first stamp.

It is not in the interests of collectors and dealers that the item is presented as having certification from the top bodies when one certificate (BPA, 2009) is missing.

It is not in the interests of collectors and dealers that the item is presented as having certification from the top bodies when those bodies do not certify the item is "the first stamp".

The PTS Code of Conduct (General Principles), https://www.thepts.net/pts-code-of-conduct.html, state:

"All forms of business and business practice in connection with stamp dealing shall be carried out legally, credibly and with professional integrity to the highest commercial standards. Values of good trading and legal principles shall be upheld."

Basic ethics say that if you see someone breaking the law, say something, report it. The PTS would not tolerate this conduct from one of their own members and if they profess to conducting stamp dealing to the highest standards, they should make a report to the proper authorities.

All of this does of course not absolve the RPSL making their own complaints. After all, Alan Holyoake is their member, publishing his fantasy in their journal, given their awards, mis-using their certificate, and is their creation.


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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by GB1840 »

MJ's pet wrote: 25 Nov 2021 08:43 Here is another document, from the Perkins Bacon Day Book, to go with the others here. What is obvious is the stamps were printed by order of warrant, and had to be accounted for. There never was, random, stray or extra sheets floating around for distribution to interested people other than what is articulated in the records. Stamps were like currency and the printer was like Fort Knox.


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Perkins Bacon Day Book
Excellent image MJ's pet , I have not seen such a good picture of this from the Day Book.

Do you have access to other images from this book?
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

Hi GB1840, no sadly. That document came from a Patrick Pearson publication. Insofar as the 1d Black is concerned, the PB Records have been well and truly studied for a century or more. The Edward Denny Bacon Line Engraved books in 2 volumes are available online.

Holyoake / Sotheby's have turned up nothing new.
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

One hopes that the current "Dealer of the Year" competition (which includes Sotheby's for goodness sake) doesn't distract the PTS from making the necessary and urgent complaints to Sotheby's, Scotland Yard and the Serious Fraud Office. :|
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

Another Holyoake propaganda interview, this one from May 2015, prior to purchase the Wallace Document.

Very, very obvious from this that he has swallowed the "very earliest Penny Black in existence" line right from the start.

He has no idea what he is talking about. Says the Wallace Document "recently discovered" prior to May 2015, but it was displayed as early as the 1960s according to Cavendish.

https://www.ilcollezionista.bolaffi.it/2015/05/holyoake-luomo-del-penny-black/

________________________________________________________________________



HOLYOAKE, THE MAN OF THE PENNY BLACK

BY BRUNO CREVATO-SELVAGGI

Alan Holyoake pic Bolaffi.png


Alan Holyoake (1945), a British businessman, is an important philatelist. In 2010 his collection Just the first stamps earned the grand prize at the London World Exhibition and this year at the "Europhilex London 2015" philatelic exhibition, held from 13 to 16 May at the Business Design Center in London and sponsored by the Queen. Elizabeth II, is again in the running for a gold medal.

How is your collection formed?

My collection on the Penny Black is different from the important ones formed in the past. I felt that replicating what had already been done in the past and that everyone had already seen was perhaps even boring. Of course, the Penny Black was the first stamp in the world, there is no question about its rarity or its cost, but how many times had it already been exhibited? I preferred a new approach and so I chose to focus on the very first stamps, i.e. those available as soon as the new system was introduced, namely the 1p stamps printed with plates number 1 and 2, and 2p, printed with plate number 1. This approach has never been used before, perhaps partly because it is difficult and expensive. Again: since my collection is based on the very earliest stamps, it includes many earliest or earliest known uses, or among the largest existing blocks. In other words, some of the most important pieces of British and world philately.

What is the rarest piece? And what is missing?

The collection contains several very rare or important pieces. The ones I like best are the largest known new block of Penny Black, a multiple of 24 from Plate 1b; the first legal text sent by post, on 6 May 1840, franked with a pair of Penny Blacks; the first test plate and the accepted tests of both black and blue; finally the largest block of Penny Black on letter, composed of 14 copies of plate 1b. Missing? You can't have it all… Perhaps the earliest known date of the Penny Black, April 10, 1840. It belongs to the Wallace Archive, recently found, and is exhibited in London in the court of honor.

How did you start collecting?

I started as an adult: I was successful in business, but my family worried that I was overworking. I had to find a hobby. One day I was flying to go to the bank in Geneva; the stewardess handed me a magazine and in the first pages I noticed the announcement of an auction, that of Queen Elizabeth's doubles. The day of the sale I went to the hall and, without any prior knowledge and without any experience, I bought some of the oldest pieces. They were my first stamps. It is a true story! Later I researched, studied, and in postage stamps I found a fun pastime that I never expected. I would recommend everyone to see if they find another hobby that can stimulate and entertain as well!
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

Does anyone know exactly who displayed the Wallace Document at Europhilex 2015 in London, May 2015? (see Holyoake interview, immediately above)

Does anyone have a printed catalogue?

NB. Sotheby's does not give an exhibition date in 2015. Hmm.

David Feldman displayed the recently discovered Mauritius printing plate at this show in the Court of Honour.

Putting two and two together, it seems he unloaded the Wallace Thing on Holyoake after this show.

It was at this show Alan Holyoake, United Kingdom displayed 'Secured Delivery Leading to the Introduction of UK Registration of Internal, External and Transit of Mail 1450-1852' (Grand Prix), recently sold by Spink to bad results.

This description of Europhilex 2015 seems spookily accurate:

"The trade stands were dominated by European dealers and auctioneers, with relatively expensive stock. If you were looking to unload £50,000 you could have talked to Spinks, David Feldman, Sandayre or any of the other big names" (http://thestampblog.com/blog/europhilex-is-it-the-greatest-stamp-show-of-our-age):

Alan Holyoake; United Kingdom; also showed: 'The World's First Postage Stamp'; 85 Points, Large Vermeil - so maybe Feldman :idea: saw him coming :idea:

Results link: https://filatelist.no/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/london-2015-palmares-final.pdf

Alan-Holyoake-GP-National Europhilex 2015.jpeg
Alan Holyoake at Europhilex 2015, London (purchased Wallace Document after this)

Europhilex 2015 pic.jpg
Europhilex 2015 venue

Europhil sign.jpg
Europhilex 2015 poster

Europhil view of main hall.jpg
Europhilex 2015 view of main hall
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by jojo »

The Royal Philatelic Society of London is, in my opinion, tainted by lauding this stamp accumulator.
They need to take their endorsements away from him, ASAP.
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by Number-O-Ne »

MJ's pet wrote: 26 Nov 2021 14:21
Alan Holyoake; United Kingdom; also showed: 'The World's First Postage Stamp'; 85 Points, Large Vermeil - so maybe Feldman :idea: saw him coming :idea:
Large vermeil is not a high medal level for this subject. I was able to reach international gold with something not as interesting (not the same exhibition). His treatment of the subject must have been poor.

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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

What is very very 8-) interesting 8-) about the 2015 Holyoake "Bolaffi" interview above, are the different stories given about his purchase of the Wallace Document.

In the Sotheby's catalogue he says he already purchased it in 2013: direct quote - "PROVENANCE: Private Sale to the present owner, 8th October 2013."

But in the 2015 Interview he admits with his own mouth and laments it is MISSING from his collection. It is in the Court of Honour at Europhil 2015.

Which is it??

When you tell :twisted: LIES :twisted: , they very soon start crashing into each other ... :lol: :lol:
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

Number-O-Ne wrote: 26 Nov 2021 15:00
MJ's pet wrote: 26 Nov 2021 14:21
Alan Holyoake; United Kingdom; also showed: 'The World's First Postage Stamp'; 85 Points, Large Vermeil - so maybe Feldman :idea: saw him coming :idea:
Large vermeil is not a high medal level for this subject. I was able to reach international gold with something not as interesting (not the same exhibition).


This is a very interesting observation. :idea:

Holyoake's Penny Black exhibit did relatively poorly at Europhil in May 2015. He obviously felt the need to buy "Big Ticket" items to try and catapult himself into the Big Time.

He then buys the Wallace Document "in late 2015" (Source: Holyoake, The London Philatelist) and proceeds to submit it for a cert.

The catapult backfired Big Time however :lol: after the BPA basically rejected the item in Dec 2015. Then Holyoake goes certificate shopping, only to be rejected AGAIN by the RPSL in Jan 2016.
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

MJ's pet wrote: 21 Nov 2021 12:25
Sotheby's wrote: Exhibited:

New York, Javits Center, World Stamp Show, 2016, 28th May to 4th June, 2016

Washington DC, Smithsonian National Postal Museum, “From Royal Mail to Public Post”, 28th October 2016 to 16th January 2017, “Court of Honour”

Alan Holyoake wrote: It is certified by all of the top authorities and has been shown in major events as the star item.


A correction needs to be made to Alan Holyoake's LIES.

The Wallace Document has never been the "star" item.

First, he has never shown it competitively at international exhibitions as far as one can tell.




Here is an extract from the Expert Group to the Jury Report at Europhil 2015. It does not mention the Wallace Document as such (it was not on competitive display) but it gives you an :idea: idea why :idea: it has never been shown competitively:

2015 Jury Report Europhilex.png
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

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One hopes a very urgent RPSL Committee meeting is being convened before the Treasures auction ...

RPSL meeting dates 2021 2022.png
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

jojo wrote: 26 Nov 2021 14:26 The Royal Philatelic Society of London is, in my opinion, tainted by lauding this stamp accumulator.
They need to take their endorsements away from him, ASAP.



MJ's pet wrote: 27 Nov 2021 10:30 One hopes a very urgent RPSL Committee meeting is being convened before the Treasures auction ...


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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

Tick, tick, tick ... 3 days until online bidding begins ...

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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by Derbyboi2 »

FIASCO - Noun - a complete failure, especially a ludicrous or humiliating one.

or - failure, disaster, catastrophe, debacle, shambles, farce.

Which best describes Sotheby's attempt to sell the 'fabled' 1d black!
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

Here is a link to a very interesting Penny Black exhibit by Jack Zhang:

Jack Zhang Rowland Hill exhibit.png
Jack Zhang's Rowland Hill and Penny Black exhibit


Link: https://www.abps.org.uk/competitions/sir-rowlandhills-postal-reform-and-his-achievements/

The competition was run by the Association of British Philatelic Societies (the 'ABPS') which readers will know is also the organisation that confers and runs the Roll Of Distinguished Philatelists (RDPs). It really is a small world isn't it? :idea:

Jack Zhang, coincidentally, is also a Council Member on the Royal Philatelic Society of London. It really is a small world isn't it? :idea:

Presumably Mr Zhang, being a Penny Black expert (he was awarded a GOLD medal), is able to spot the false claims peddled by Alan Manfred Holyoake and Sotheby's about the Wallace Document?

Does he know that there were no 1d Blacks printed or distributed on 10 April 1840?

There are also loads of RDP's on the RPSL Council, at least 5 doing a very quick count and maybe more. Hopefully this will not hinder them from taking all the necessary action. :idea:

It really is a small world isn't it? :idea:

RPSL Council Jack Zhang.png
Jack Zhang sits on the governing Council of the Royal Philatelic Society of London
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

In April 2020 Jack Zhang, Fellow and Council Member of the Royal Philatelic Society of London , gave a very long Zoom talk concerning the development of the Penny Black and Mulready stationery.

Video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFs9UXjo8wI

Jack Zhang talk.png
Jack Zhang FRPSL, talk - no mention of The Wallace Document whatsoever


A one-hour long talk given to Alan Holyoake's home society covering all aspects of the Penny Black and Mulready, the significant pieces (even those owned by others), and the key players in the Penny Black story. He talks about the difference between Plate 1a and 1b.

During the full 60 minutes, The Wallace Document was not mentioned whatsoever.

NO mention of Holyoake's "World Icon" or "The Most Significant Item in All of Philately".

How important is The Wallace Document really? Hmmm.

:idea: You could not make this stuff up :idea:
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

Jack Zhang FRPSL (a Penny Black Expert) Won A Gold At 2021 Autumn Stampex (29 Sept. - 2 Oct. 2021) for his Rowland Hill Birth of the Penny Black exhibit

Jack Zhang wins Gold.png

Jack Zhang wins Gold 2.jpg
Jack Zhang FRPSL Won A Gold At 2021 Autumn Stampex (29 Sept. - 2 Oct. 2021)


For the moment of his receiving the medal - see Video Link: https://www.ixigua.com/7014763518314578473

Jack Zhang wins Gold 3.png
Jack Zhang FRPSL Won A Gold At 2021 Autumn Stampex 2021

Jack Zhang with Frank Walton RDP RPSL at Wuhan 2019.jpg
Frank Walton RDP FRPSL and Jack Zhang FRPSL at 2019 World Stamp Exhibition in Wuhan, China
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by norvic »

In among all your good research, I think you are letting the enthusiasm run away with you.
The competition was run by the Association of British Philatelic Societies (the 'ABPS') which readers will know is also the organisation that confers and runs the Roll Of Distinguished Philatelists (RDPs). It really is a small world isn't it?
The ABPS is the administrator and probably guardian of the RDP for the time being. I think it is wrong to say that it confers and runs the RDP. See https://www.abps.org.uk/roll-of-distinguished-philatelists/
A signing ceremony for the Roll of Distinguished Philatelists takes place annually at the Philatelic Congress of Great Britain, and has done so, with the exception of the war years 1941-1945, at every Congress since.

An invitation to sign the Roll is regarded as the world’s pre-eminent philatelic honour. 356 philatelists from 40 countries have achieved this distinction. There are at present 76 living Signatories from 24 countries.

The Board of Election is composed of eight Signatories to the Roll, of whom four must reside in the United Kingdom. The Secretary is the Keeper of the Roll, and the Board meets annually to consider nominations and agrees the names of new signatories, which are at its absolute discretion.
The following names are appended at the foot of the 2021 report and I assume that they are part of the board, although it doesn't say so!

By Chris King RDP, Hon. FRPSL, Wolfgang Maassen RDP, FRPSL, Chris Harman RDP, RNCP, Hon FRPSL, and edited by Jon Aitchison RNCP, FRPSL, Keeper of the Roll of Distinguished Philatelists.
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by JonEboy »

I’ve just had time to sit and go through some of the philatelic literature that has accumulated on my desk over the past couple of weeks and found this article on the inside cover of Cover Lover, a magazine for cover collectors published by Buckingham Covers.
Cover lover Nov 21
Cover lover Nov 21
It is authored by Brian Austin and repeats a lot of what has already been said in various press releases. Thought it worth including here as a record of what has been published in the run up to the sale.

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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by GB1840 »

I think the result he will report in the next issue will be either unsold or better still hopefully withdrawn :)
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by Number-O-Ne »

JonEboy wrote: 28 Nov 2021 03:48 I’ve just had time to sit and go through some of the philatelic literature that has accumulated on my desk over the past couple of weeks and found this article on the inside cover of Cover Lover, a magazine for cover collectors published by Buckingham Covers.

It is authored by Brian Austin and repeats a lot of what has already been said in various press releases. Thought it worth including here as a record of what has been published in the run up to the sale.

Jon

Brian is probably a very nice guy, but I can't understand how someone who calls himself a "specialist cover expert" is not even aware of the most basic concepts of postal history.

I repeat: I don't know much about GB, British Commonwealth, or Penny Black. The little I know I learned reading the posts on this forum and I'm grateful to everybody who takes the time to share their knowledge.

However, as a postal history collector, I can say everything he says is wrong. This is not a piece of postal history. If we want to prove the early postal use of a stamp, we first need a postmark that ties the stamp to the document with a clearly identifiable date. This is only the first condition. Accidental, or not-so-accidental, backdating is always possible.

We also need to have corroborating evidence with the dates of transit and arrival postmarks. If available, the date of the message and its contents should also be part of the evidence. I have a couple such documents from Italy in my collection. I'm not showing those here because it would be highly off-topic.

None of the required evidence is available on this document. If a handwritten message is all we need, what stops me from purchasing a stampless letter from an earlier date, affixing an unused penny black on an empty space of the address side, and claiming I have an even earlier use? Go figure....

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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by ViccyVFU »

Number-O-Ne wrote: 28 Nov 2021 04:05 However, as a postal history collector, I can say everything he says is wrong. This is not a piece of postal history.

Going to have to take you to task on that.... its definitely postal history (irrespective of the outrageous claims he makes about is provenance, and the "sequence of events").

I think you are maybe looking at it from the "more defined scope" of "items that passed through the post", but the dictionary definition is actually much wider than that.

postal_history.jpg
Postal History - Wide and narrow (specialist) definitions - Wiki

Thus a postmasters circular is postal history, an inkwell from a Victorian post office is postal history.

The two artefacts he is displaying (as one) are undoubtably "individually" postal history, but his ensuing "study and claims" are "mere hogwash" that deserve no place in an exhibit, in current form.

Brian Austin is a known "over egger of the pudding" (otherwise known as Marketing BS).

I still think the lot will be withdrawn, possibly as late as three days before the sale, and maybe rescheduled into Q2 2022 "pending further research".

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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by Derbyboi2 »

I consider the term 'Postal History' as used so far in this Forum refers to the definition used in competition entries in National and International competitions.

Using this definition the items (a stamp and a proof) would fall within the 'Traditional' class and not 'Postal History'.
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by Number-O-Ne »

ViccyVFU wrote: 28 Nov 2021 08:56
Number-O-Ne wrote: 28 Nov 2021 04:05 However, as a postal history collector, I can say everything he says is wrong. This is not a piece of postal history.

Going to have to take you to task on that.... its definitely postal history (irrespective of the outrageous claims he makes about is provenance, and the "sequence of events").

I think you are maybe looking at it from the "more defined scope" of "items that passed through the post", but the dictionary definition is actually much wider than that.

Image
Postal History - Wide and narrow (specialist) definitions - Wiki

Thus a postmasters circular is postal history, an inkwell from a Victorian post office is postal history.

The two artefacts he is displaying (as one) are undoubtably "individually" postal history, but his ensuing "study and claims" are "mere hogwash" that deserve no place in an exhibit, in current form.

Brian Austin is a known "over egger of the pudding" (otherwise known as Marketing BS).

I still think the lot will be withdrawn, possibly as late as three days before the sale, and maybe rescheduled into Q2 2022 "pending further research".

I am looking at whether the postal historical place of the document at hand as a whole can be proven. Typically, in postal history the sum is bigger than its components. You can have cheap stamp (1), and a common postmark (1). However, date, rate, destination etc can make 1+1= 100 because of the specifics of that particular document.

Right now, all we have is three separate things that do not make such total with credible proof: One stamp, one Mulready proof (the only piece coming close to postal history), and a few handwritten (undated) lines. Several people, including experts, have evaluated it. There is a certificate that states it is not possible to prove the date the handwritten note was added. At the end, we still see 1+1+1=3. Nothing more

We are in agreement except for nuances. This document as a whole will be a piece of postal history with sum being bigger than its pieces when the burden of proof is met. So far, the burden of proof has not been met.
ViccyVFU wrote: 28 Nov 2021 08:56
an inkwell from a Victorian post office is postal history.
I would love to see the inkwell from a post office next to a cover postmarked with ink coming from that particular inkwell.


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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by Number-O-Ne »

Derbyboi2 wrote: 28 Nov 2021 09:10 I consider the term 'Postal History' as used so far in this Forum refers to the definition used in competition entries in National and International competitions.

Using this definition the items (a stamp and a proof) would fall within the 'Traditional' class and not 'Postal History'.
Yes. That's exactly what we have now..
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by Allanswood »

From the article : "This is Penny Black on a letter"... and you lost me there. On a letter?

"Will be sold with certificates of authenticity"... lost me again. Did you read any of them? Yes they have certs, but they only confirm that its a real Penny Black, which is never hard to do.

Oh dear.

I think many are being blinded by the guff and fluff when mainstream media runs with a copy/paste media release article and they all assume its above board.

Rearranging the deck chairs.
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

norvic - Thank You, you are correct. :) The ABPS nominates to the Roll and hosts the Roll's activities on their website.

"The Board of Election [of the RDP] is composed of eight Signatories to the Roll, of whom four must reside in the United Kingdom. The Secretary is the Keeper of the Roll, and the Board meets annually to consider nominations and agrees the names of new signatories, which are at its absolute discretion."



It is far more incestuous than I realised. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

Thanks JonEboy for the scan of the article. :)

I had never heard of Brian from Buckingham Covers.

It could be debated if the Wallace Doc actually constitutes postal history as it is not a cover. The definition can be a little stretchy I suppose as people include things like Post Office notices or Postal legislation. My bet is that the judges have taken a negative view of this item, not becuase it isn't a cover, but for other far more serious reasons.

All Brian from Buckingham Covers has done is to regurgitate the gushing Holyoake / Sotheby's pre-auction publicity and falsehoods.
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

Number-O-Ne wrote: 28 Nov 2021 04:05 None of the required evidence is available on this document. If a handwritten message is all we need, what stops me from purchasing a stampless letter from an earlier date, affixing an unused penny black on an empty space of the address side, and claiming I have an even earlier use?


Excellent point. The date on the document is not evidence that a meeting or presentation was held on that date. It is hearsay.

An analogy: If a murder victim is found with a bus ticket in his pocket, was the murder victim on the bus? No.

The date on the doc could be mistaken. Or the date could have nothing to do with the presentation of the Penny Black.

As I wrote ages ago, the items were presented loose, which is important in the scheme of things. The Wallace scrapbook was obviously compiled and "written up" later. It does not have the integrity of a contemporaneous document, such as a diary. The RPSL expert committee quite wisely observed that the endorsement must have been written later on an unknown date.

No real credible philatelic auctioneer would hang a Million Dollar auction listing on a handwritten pencil date with no other evidence.
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

Allanswood wrote: 28 Nov 2021 09:27 I think many are being blinded by the guff and fluff when mainstream media runs with a copy/paste media release article and they all assume its above board.

Rearranging the deck chairs.


Spot on. If one types "Alan Holyoake" and ""Sotheby's" or "Wallace Document" into Google, dozens and dozens of versions of the Holyoake media interview and Sotheby's Press release of 26 October 2021 will come up. All spouting the same lies. :twisted:

Holyoake google.png


As Winston Churchill once said:

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."
*


*also attributed to Mark Twain, Joseph Goebbels and others
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

More Holyoake propaganda. This puff piece is from the Newsletter of the "K-W Philatelic Society" in Canada from April 2019 (Vol.1. Issue 1):

http://www.kwstampclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/K-W-PO ... issue..pdf

A few key quotes:


I am "a world-authority on stamps".

I am "one of the world's most successful stamp collectors".

I am "currently honoured at the Smithsonian Museum for the extraordinary discovery of the world's first official stamp".

"I'm now a very famous man in the world of philately".



________________________________________________________________________________________________

Holyoake interview 1.png

Holyoake interview 2.png

Holyoake interview 3.png

Holyoake interview 4.png
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by ViccyVFU »

MJ's pet wrote: 29 Nov 2021 09:07 More Holyoake propaganda. This puff piece is from the Newsletter of the "K-W Philatelic Society" in Canada from April 2019 (Vol.1. Issue 1):


Image

I see this article is illustrated with his "enhanced modified lie" of a scrawled closure to an "o" where there was an "a"



"A lie told often enough becomes the truth."

(Attributed to Vladimir Lenin)

Why are "all these people" seemingly fooled by this "blatant fraud"?

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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

MJ's pet wrote: 26 Nov 2021 15:10 What is very very 8-) interesting 8-) about the 2015 Holyoake "Bolaffi" interview above, are the different stories given about his purchase of the Wallace Document.

In the Sotheby's catalogue he says he already purchased it in 2013: direct quote - "PROVENANCE: Private Sale to the present owner, 8th October 2013."

But in the 2015 Interview he admits with his own mouth and laments it is MISSING from his collection. It is in the Court of Honour at Europhil 2015.

Which is it??

When you tell :twisted: LIES :twisted: , they very soon start crashing into each other ... :lol: :lol:


Fishy's story about the purchase of The Wallace Document is very slippery and keeps on changing.

This from The K-W Newsletter, April 2019

"Two years ago, Mr. Holyoake was persuaded to buy it privately, commissioning 18 months of intensive research to get it authenticated".

Is the purchase date 2013, 2015, 2016 or 2017 ?? :lol:

Then he said he commissioned "3 years" of research and now it is down to "18 months" ?? :lol:
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

ViccyVFU wrote: 29 Nov 2021 09:30 I see this article is illustrated with his "enhanced modified lie" of a scrawled closure to an "o" where there was an "a".

Why are "all these people" seemingly fooled by this "blatant fraud"?



The way the "a" was drawn by Holyoake in the London Philatelist article arguably constitutes academic fraud. (Although it is laughable describe him as such - apologies to any academics out there).

The RPSL should not have gullibly published it in the first place. They bear responsibility.

It gets even more farcical. Even Sotheby's it seems cannot decide if the word in question is "come" or "came". Worse, they seem to be completely oblivious to the issue and the consequences for the authenticity of the "earliest" claim.

If any case screamed out for a world-class handwriting expert, this is it.

From Sotheby's catalogue - :idea: you could not make this up :idea: :

Sotheby's come came.png
Sotheby's "come" or "came" into use? Who knows? Who cares?
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

1 day til online bidding opens ...

Sothebys Treasures 1 day to bidding open.png
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

Viewing starts this Friday. Does anyone want to go along and ask some relevant questions. Such is: "This is not the World's Earliest stamp. Why is this fraudulent action going ahead?" :lol:

Alan Holyoake might even be there, along with his chums from the RPSL, RDP etc. etc.

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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by mozzerb »

MJ's pet wrote: 29 Nov 2021 10:02
ViccyVFU wrote: 29 Nov 2021 09:30 I see this article is illustrated with his "enhanced modified lie" of a scrawled closure to an "o" where there was an "a".

Why are "all these people" seemingly fooled by this "blatant fraud"?



The way the "a" was drawn by Holyoake in the London Philatelist article arguably constitutes academic fraud. (Although it is laughable describe him as such - apologies to any academics out there).
If you compare the other "o"s and "a"s in Wallace's scrawl, it's perfectly plausible that this is an "o". See the "o" in "Postage" for example. The "a"s vary -- some are clearly different to the disputed character, but one or two do look very similar. I'm not sure there's enough to say which it is in the key word without wishful thinking -- on Holyoake's part that it's "clearly an o", on his critics' that it's "clearly an a". It isn't clearly either.

More to the point, it doesn't really matter which it is because the whole passage isn't dated. Even assuming for the sake of argument that it actually is an "o", the text could have been written at any time up to 5th May. Unless it can be assumed to be written on the same date as the Mulready proof description -- and I'm not sure how you could show that, the text is hardly unambiguous on this point -- the "earliest Penny Black" idea becomes completely speculative.
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by Number-O-Ne »

My mother is a graphologist. I grew up immersed in handwriting analysis.
The first thing my mother taught me: handwriting is three-dimensional. An analysis made without touching the impression of the letters can never be complete or accurate.

Our opinions, mine included (I read came), are bound to be inaccurate and incomplete.

At the end however, I agree the difference is strictly academic.

Regardless of what is written, we have no way of knowing when it is written. The whole "first ever" argument is no more solid than a house of cards.

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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »


mozzerb wrote: 30 Nov 2021 12:03 If you compare the other "o"s and "a"s in Wallace's scrawl, it's perfectly plausible that this is an "o". See the "o" in "Postage" for example. The "a"s vary -- some are clearly different to the disputed character, but one or two do look very similar. I'm not sure there's enough to say which it is in the key word without wishful thinking -- on Holyoake's part that it's "clearly an o", on his critics' that it's "clearly an a". It isn't clearly either.


Reasonable minds can differ as to the disputed character.

Feldman said "came". BPA said "come". Holyoake says "come". RPSL do not say. James Grimwood-Taylor says ?. A group posting on this thread says "came". Sotheby's say it is both! :lol:

Of course there are $$11 Million$$ reasons why some people say "come". :lol:

This is why I have said that the auction listing screams out for a world-class handwriting expert. It is an understatement to say it is alarming that a supposed GBP 6 Million + item is offered by the second-oldest auction house in the world with no handwriting analysis opinion. :shock:

There is archives full of Wallace's handwriting so there can be no excuse that the subject sample is too small.

Perhaps Wallace's handwriting was naturally bad, or the script was written in a hurry. Everyone would agree that the disputed letter looks more like a "u" than anything else. I would point out Wallace's rendering of the word "May", which appears as "Muy".

What ViccyVFU and I were saying about the London Philatelist is that Holyoake did a (hand) tracing and manipulated the disputed character, by placing curved hooks at the top, to give the illusion of a near join, of a looping, circular character, and to make it appear more like the letter "o". What Holyoake has rendered in the disputed letter looks nothing like flowing cursive handwriting. That is the fraud :twisted: . See this graphic, the tracing looks nothing like the real thing:

handwriting comparison.png
Top: Holyoake tracing (London Philatelist); Bottom: Retroreveal


mozzerb wrote: 30 Nov 2021 12:03 More to the point, it doesn't really matter which it is because the whole passage isn't dated. ... -- the "earliest Penny Black" idea becomes completely speculative.


Excellent point. The Penny Black endorsement is not dated. :idea:

People are assuming it is dated, when it is not.
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by Number-O-Ne »

I was not going to say anything, but now that MJ's pet has noticed it, let me make a quick comment. I hope my mom forgives me for speaking out of turn.

Though there is no 100% accuracy looking at the picture of a single character at a single place, lowercase handwritten "a" looking like "u" is one of the signs of not being honest. It could mean dishonest in general, or hiding something at the time of the writing.

I don't know anything about Wallace's personality. Maybe he was a dishonest person, or he was simply not being straightforward at that time. Alternatively, we may be looking at a forger's handwriting.

Of course, as I mentioned above, degree of accuracy of my comments is likely to be low.

On the other hand, we have enough reason to
expect a written graphologist opinion about a document that is being put on sale based on a handwritten note.

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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by Allanswood »

Pencil scrawl, "come" or "came" all just fluff around a stamp that no one has shown or verified to have been cut from the first sheet. Handwriting therefore is irrelevant.

I can get some old paper, practice with my pencil, grab a mint no gum PB and find a similar Mulready proof and make another tomorrow.

I'm not saying that's what someone has/had (hah!) done, and I'm happy to accept the stamp is indeed early and the writing may be original, albeit in pencil. BUT, there are too many "buts" in the mix. The cert's, as is their want, have stepped around any opinion on "the first stamp".

Half truths will pass a lie detector.
It's the world's first stamp - of course... its a penny black, but there are millions of them.
It has 2 reputable certs! - Nice, and correct... but what do they actually certify?
It's mint ungummed. It's mint yes... good luck proving it never had gum, its now stuck on a page and gum is easy to remove.
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by Global Administrator »

''Come'' or ''came'' is totally irrelevant really.

What is RELEVANT is that no-one from Queen Victoria down knew until late April the issue date was finally set for May 6.

Perkins Bacon had technical issues with the mass printing and only when they'd produced a stockpile of sheets, was it possible to set an issue date that the authorities knew could be met.

That issue date was announced as May 6. All the official references to that decision are added earlier on in this thread.

These came into use May 6

These come into use May 6


Was only written latter April at earliest in the latter, and anytime after May 6 if the former

The RPSL Certificate clearly states the handwritten notes were added posthumously under the 1d Black. I have little doubt the handwritten scrawl was in Wallace hand.

Whether those notes were made late April or early May - who cares.

The single might have come from sheet 1000 printed mid-April. A total FRAUD to claim it was from the first sheet printed.
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by MJ's pet »

Online bidding now opens in 7 days time.

:twisted: :twisted: No Saleroom update to description notices, regarding Lot 30 Wallace Doc :twisted: :twisted: :

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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by mozzerb »

Number-O-Ne wrote: 30 Nov 2021 14:53 Though there is no 100% accuracy looking at the picture of a single character at a single place, lowercase handwritten "a" looking like "u" is one of the signs of not being honest. It could mean dishonest in general, or hiding something at the time of the writing.

I don't know anything about Wallace's personality. Maybe he was a dishonest person, or he was simply not being straightforward at that time. Alternatively, we may be looking at a forger's handwriting.
OK, sorry, but that goes beyond handwriting analysis and into the realms of pop psychology. Trying to infer precise mental states from writing is pretty much another way of saying "guesswork". (Especially given the general appalling quality of much handwriting, then and now.)

Let's not go overboard here. As I understood it, the sourcing to Wallace's papers is clear enough, as is the match for his handwriting. He'd have no obvious reason to be lying in his notes to himself. The problem is what he wrote not being enough to support what is claimed.
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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by ViccyVFU »

MJ's pet wrote: 30 Nov 2021 14:12

What ViccyVFU and I were saying about the London Philatelist is that Holyoake did a (hand) tracing and manipulated the disputed character, by placing curved hooks at the top, to give the illusion of a near join, of a looping, circular character, and to make it appear more like the letter "o". What Holyoake has rendered in the disputed letter looks nothing like flowing cursive handwriting. That is the fraud

The fact we have seen the documents cited as part of the provenance for this item, and that the article contained "enhanced tracing" to mislead the subject reader, would be enough grounds to examine whether a Fraud offence had been committed.

Whilst the majority of the handwriting is that of Wallace, a tiny smidgeon of embellishment is being used to lead readers down one path. That's the deception. (If it wasn't needed, why do it?).

For those unfamiliar with UK law, the charge would be under section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006, which covers "False representation" ....

Current CPS Guidelines" wrote:
Fraud by false representation (Section 2)
The defendant:

made a false representation
dishonestly
knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading
with intent to make a gain for himself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss.
The offence is entirely focused on the conduct of the defendant.
The maximum sentence for this kind of offence is 10 years.

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Re: Sothebys to auction Penny Black with $A11 million estimate

Post by mozzerb »

ViccyVFU wrote: 30 Nov 2021 21:38
Current CPS Guidelines" wrote: Fraud by false representation (Section 2)
The defendant:

made a false representation
dishonestly
knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading
with intent to make a gain for himself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss.
The offence is entirely focused on the conduct of the defendant.
Well, good luck proving "dishonestly" or "knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading" to a criminal evidentiary standard, especially against someone who can afford top quality lawyers.

I'm not personally particularly fond of Alan Holyoake (for entirely petty reasons), but seriously, as I said above, let's not go overboard here. Hyping an item beyond what can be supported -- yes indeed. Lots of auctioneers going to jail if that starts being prosecuted. Hyperbolic accusations of fraud are another matter.
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