Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

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Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by honza »

Ahoj everyone!

Does anyone have a postal stationery catalogue for Albania? Could someone please provide a number and value for this 25q letter card of around 1925 with Republika Shqiptare overprint?
3304  ALB  Letter card 25q blue.jpg
3304a  ALB  Letter card 25q blue rev.jpg
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by honza »

and another question:-

Are these 1913 stamps SG 22-6 forgeries? Were they issued without gum
ALB  22-6 ng Jpg.jpg
ALB  22-6 ng rev.jpg
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by nigelc »

Hello Honza,

Your letter card is listed in Higgins & Gage as H&G A6 from 1925.

The latest prices from 1982 (!) are mint $3.00, used $10.00 (in US dollars).
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by honza »

Ahoj Nigel!,

Thank you for that very useful information.

Cheers,

Honza
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by VFND55 »

honza wrote: 10 Apr 2022 20:01
and another question:-

Are these 1913 stamps SG 22-6 forgeries? Were they issued without gum

Image

Image

Cheers,

Honza
Yes, these stamps were issued on Nov. 5. 1913 to commemorate the 1st anniversary of Albania Independence without gum and with handstamp eagle and value in black, perf. 11½. Scott lists these stamps printed on white laid paper but I believe that is incorrect, they were printed on white wove paper. Scott also lists these stamps with note that counterfeits exists and I believe your examples are counterfeits. Below are the originals, all with CTO date 5-11-1913 LUSHJE SHQIPERIA. I have yet to find any of the stamps on cover and believe they were issued only for the philatelic trade.
Albania 1913 1st Anniversary Independance.jpg
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by honza »

Ahoj VFND55!

Thank you for your help with my query. I agree that the stamps I showed are probably forgeries. There seems to have been a lot of creative philatelic activity in Albania just prior to World War 1.

I would love to see some genuine covers from the Ottoman period in Albania. I don't suppose you have any you could share? Have you come across any examples in any thread on Stampboards?

Thanks again,

Honza
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by ikanek »

VFND55 wrote: 11 Apr 2022 02:37 Yes, these stamps were issued on Nov. 5. 1913 to commemorate the 1st anniversary of Albania Independence without gum and with handstamp eagle and value in black, perf. 11½. Scott lists these stamps printed on white laid paper but I believe that is incorrect, they were printed on white wove paper. Scott also lists these stamps with note that counterfeits exists and I believe your examples are counterfeits. Below are the originals, all with CTO date 5-11-1913 LUSHJE SHQIPERIA. I have yet to find any of the stamps on cover and believe they were issued only for the philatelic trade.
Image
I believe you are completely wrong. Your examples are listed forgeries of the first type. The forgeries have the following signs (translated by Google from an Italian reference):

1. From a comparison made on the letters H and Ë of the word PËRKOHËSHME it appears that while in the originals the distance between the two is greater in the upper part, in the fakes the letter Ë, having equal distance from H both at the top and at the bottom, appears parallel to this.
2. The paper on which the fake is printed is generally smooth with a cream color.
3. The great majority of used forgeries have the Lushnje 5-11-1913 cancellation, an impossible date as the stamps were issued on 28 November.
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by ikanek »

honza wrote: 10 Apr 2022 20:01
and another question:-

Are these 1913 stamps SG 22-6 forgeries? Were they issued without gum

Image

Cheers,

Honza
Ahoj Honza, I think you have a genuine stamp set. And yes, they were issued without gum. About 40.000 series issued.
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by VFND55 »

ikanek wrote: 13 Apr 2022 06:34
VFND55 wrote: 11 Apr 2022 02:37 Yes, these stamps were issued on Nov. 5. 1913 to commemorate the 1st anniversary of Albania Independence without gum and with handstamp eagle and value in black, perf. 11½. Scott lists these stamps printed on white laid paper but I believe that is incorrect, they were printed on white wove paper. Scott also lists these stamps with note that counterfeits exists and I believe your examples are counterfeits. Below are the originals, all with CTO date 5-11-1913 LUSHJE SHQIPERIA. I have yet to find any of the stamps on cover and believe they were issued only for the philatelic trade.
Image
I believe you are completely wrong. Your examples are listed forgeries of the first type. The forgeries have the following signs (translated by Google from an Italian reference):

1. From a comparison made on the letters H and Ë of the word PËRKOHËSHME it appears that while in the originals the distance between the two is greater in the upper part, in the fakes the letter Ë, having equal distance from H both at the top and at the bottom, appears parallel to this.
2. The paper on which the fake is printed is generally smooth with a cream color.
3. The great majority of used forgeries have the Lushnje 5-11-1913 cancellation, an impossible date as the stamps were issued on 28 November.
Yikes! At least I got the first of something, albeit crud. I appreciate your input on correcting my post. At least we know what to look for.
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by honza »

ikanek wrote: 13 Apr 2022 06:39
honza wrote: 10 Apr 2022 20:01
and another question:-

Are these 1913 stamps SG 22-6 forgeries? Were they issued without gum

Image

Cheers,

Honza
Ahoj Honza, I think you have a genuine stamp set. And yes, they were issued without gum. About 40.000 series issued.
Ahoj Ikanek!

Thank you for your reply. That is a very pleasant surprise as I felt myself that they were too crude to be genuine. They did come from a collection with some good material in it, however, so perhaps I should not be too surprised.

Does your brother still have some Ottoman era Albanian covers that he could show?

Do you collect Albania yourself alongside the Indian Uglies?

Best wishes,

Honza
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by honza »

VFND55 wrote: 13 Apr 2022 09:40
ikanek wrote: 13 Apr 2022 06:34
VFND55 wrote: 11 Apr 2022 02:37 Yes, these stamps were issued on Nov. 5. 1913 to commemorate the 1st anniversary of Albania Independence without gum and with handstamp eagle and value in black, perf. 11½. Scott lists these stamps printed on white laid paper but I believe that is incorrect, they were printed on white wove paper. Scott also lists these stamps with note that counterfeits exists and I believe your examples are counterfeits. Below are the originals, all with CTO date 5-11-1913 LUSHJE SHQIPERIA. I have yet to find any of the stamps on cover and believe they were issued only for the philatelic trade.
Image
I believe you are completely wrong. Your examples are listed forgeries of the first type. The forgeries have the following signs (translated by Google from an Italian reference):

1. From a comparison made on the letters H and Ë of the word PËRKOHËSHME it appears that while in the originals the distance between the two is greater in the upper part, in the fakes the letter Ë, having equal distance from H both at the top and at the bottom, appears parallel to this.
2. The paper on which the fake is printed is generally smooth with a cream color.
3. The great majority of used forgeries have the Lushnje 5-11-1913 cancellation, an impossible date as the stamps were issued on 28 November.
Yikes! At least I got the first of something, albeit crud. I appreciate your input on correcting my post. At least we know what to look for.
Ahoj VFND55,

Please do not feel bad about your reply. We can all get things wrong and I appreciate your input as it all stimulates discussion and has lead to a happy conclusion.

On further checking my set is indeed on horizontally laid paper, so Scott seems to be right on that point after all.

Cheers,

Honza
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by ikanek »

honza wrote: 13 Apr 2022 16:41 Ahoj Ikanek!

Thank you for your reply. That is a very pleasant surprise as I felt myself that they were too crude to be genuine. They did come from a collection with some good material in it, however, so perhaps I should not be too surprised.

Do you collect Albania yourself alongside the Indian Uglies?

Best wishes,

Honza
No, I don't collect Albania. However, there is one stamp exhibit in the Czech Republic about Albanian stamps. I judged it several times and I am in close contact with the exhibitor.
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by honza »

Ahoj Ikanek,

Thank you. Is that collection featured online?

Here is another piece of Albanian stationery, which seems to have attracted many watchers. Is it something unusual?

It is a 5q green postcard based on Michel 36.
3303  ALB  5q green ovpt card.jpg
3303a  ALB  5q green ovpt card rev.jpg
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Honza
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by nigelc »

Hi Honza,

The old Higgins and Gage catalogue lists this postal card #7, issued in 1914 to celebrate the landing of Prince zu Wied at Durazzo.

This and the similar red 10 quint card and reply card versions of these were sold in eight cities on 7th and 8th March only.

500 of this card were issued.

The H&G 1982 prices for this were 30.00 mint and 40.00 used (in US dollars).
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by honza »

Ahoj again Nigel!

Thank you for that further helpful information. If only 500 were overprinted, that would explain the interest.

The following is an air mail cover, dated 13.7.31, from Tirana, Albania to Braunschweig in Germany via Rome and Berlin. It bears the lower four values of the 1931 air mail set overprinted for the first Tirana - Rome Flight. Mi 235-8.

I understand these were sold at four times face value. Did that mean the franking value was four times face as well?
3300  ALB  to GER  19310713.jpg
3300a  ALB  to GER 19310713.jpg
3300b  ALB  TIRANE Posta Aeerore 19310713.jpg
3300c  ITA  ROMA Aeroporto Littorio Posta Aerea 19310714.jpg
3300d  GER  BERLIN C2 Luftpostamt 19310714.jpg
3300e  GER  BERLIN C L 2 19310714.jpg
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by honza »

Ahoj again,

Question 5

As I understand it Shkodra in Northern Albania was occupied by the Montenegrins from May 1915 to 1919, the Albanian post office was closed and Montenegrin stamps were used. Is this a genuine early use 2.7.15 of a Montenegro stamp on piece from Skadar (Shkodra)?
MTG(ALB) SKODAR piece 19150702.jpg
Is the Albanian postage due legitimate? It is postmarked in LESH (Lezhë) on 7.3.??. Could that be the following day the 3rd July rather than the more usual 7th March?
MTG  SKADAR 19150702.jpg
Assuming transport between Shkodra and Lesh was possible, would the use of a postage due indicate an underpayment or a refusal to recognise a Montenegrin stamp as valid in Shkodra?

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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by honza »

Ahoj again!

Question 6

This is a Korce set cancelled by favour. Are the stamps genuine?
ALB  Korce u.jpg
Thanks again for any help,

Cheers,

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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by honza »

Ahoj again!

Question 7
ALB  Trieste not issued.jpg
These stamps were printed for Albania in Trieste, but were never issued. How many values were there in the set and do all values exist with and without perforation?

Also was the problem with the design that the eagle had only one head instead of two?

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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by honza »

Ahoj again!

Question 8
3322  ALB  Mi 7.jpg
Is this provisional overprint for Shkodra genuine? It sadly seems to have a closed tear bottom right.

Lots of questions, I know, but any answers will form the basis of a very useful thread for Albamia collectors in the future. Many thanks to Ikanek and Nigel for being so very helpful so far.

Cheers,

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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by honza »

Ahoj Nigel

Can you help with Question 9?

Does your stationery reference work include these two local to Shkodra items?
ALB  5c ovpt card 19190312.jpg
ALB  1919 ovpt reply card.jpg
Anything to suggest they are not genuine? The bottom one has the overprint inverted.

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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by honza »

Ahoj again!

Has anyone been able to come up with any answers to my previous questions?

Question 10
ALB  115,116, 120 mm.jpg
ALB  115,116, 120 mm rev.jpg
Michel notes forgeries of these overprints. Are these ones genuine? They are MI 68, 70 & 72.

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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by nigelc »

Ahoy honza!

I have just seen question 9.

Yes, these are both in the H&G catalogue, listed as local postcards ("postal cards") for Scutari.

In fact the catalogue has missed out the reference to Scutari but the later price update lists them under that name.

The postcard is H&G M2 5 qint with red overprint, priced at 10 US dollars mint, 15 US dollars used.

The reply card is H&G M4 10 + 10 qint with black overprint, priced at 20 US dollars mint, 15 US dollars used.

The catalogue says that double and inverted overprints are known.

Both sets of prices are from the 1982 price update.

The used prices for reply cards are presumably for single cards as the catalogue has a note that used unservered cards are unknown.
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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by honza »

Thank you Nigel for another helpful answer.

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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by honza »

Ahoj again Nigel!

Further to question 9

On further examination I see that my two cards with this overprint have not been surcharged in Turkish currency first.

Was this the case with the items you gave me details of?

Are these overprints on cards with the original Albanian currency thus bogus?

Cheers,

Honza
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by kuikka »

nigelc wrote: 10 Apr 2022 22:08 Hello Honza,

Your letter card is listed in Higgins & Gage as H&G A6 from 1925.

The latest prices from 1982 (!) are mint $3.00, used $10.00 (in US dollars).
Relative update to these prices from Michel Europa Ost, 2001/02:

K4, 12€ mint or used
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Re: Some questions about Albanian stamps

Post by kuikka »

nigelc wrote: 14 Apr 2022 21:07 Hi Honza,

The old Higgins and Gage catalogue lists this postal card #7, issued in 1914 to celebrate the landing of Prince zu Wied at Durazzo.

This and the similar red 10 quint card and reply card versions of these were sold in eight cities on 7th and 8th March only.

500 of this card were issued.

The H&G 1982 prices for this were 30.00 mint and 40.00 used (in US dollars).
Updated price from Michel (2002):

P7: 800€ mint, 1000€ used
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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by honza »

Ahoj kuikka!

Thank you for that further information.

I know you have a substantial number of reference works. Can you help with any of the other answers?

Cheers,

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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by nigelc »

honza wrote: 14 May 2022 18:24
Ahoj again Nigel!

Further to question 9

On further examination I see that my two cards with this overprint have not been surcharged in Turkish currency first.

Was this the case with the items you gave me details of?

Are these overprints on cards with the original Albanian currency thus bogus?

Cheers,

Honza
Hello Honza,

These cards have not been surcharded. They still have their original face values in qintar.

The postage stamps with this design were first issued in quintar in December 1913 (SG 27-32) and then later surcharged in paras in April 1914 (SG 40-45).

Somehow the postage stamps with this design with both the paras surcharges and this anniversary overprint (SG 39-39f) appear to have been issued in Scutari in March 1914.

Three values without paras surcharges were issued with both this anniversary overprint and a large T for use as postage dues (SG 39g-39i) in 1915.

I guess in practice both currencies were in use and people were used to the exchange rate.
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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by kuikka »

honza wrote: 14 May 2022 21:07
Ahoj kuikka!

Thank you for that further information.

I know you have a substantial number of reference works. Can you help with any of the other answers?

Cheers,

Honza
For postal stationery I understand how I can help but for others You seem to have already good answers. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask an I try to see if I can help you.
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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by kuikka »

nigelc wrote: 14 May 2022 04:37 Ahoy honza!

I have just seen question 9.

Yes, these are both in the H&G catalogue, listed as local postcards ("postal cards") for Scutari.

In fact the catalogue has missed out the reference to Scutari but the later price update lists them under that name.

The postcard is H&G M2 5 qint with red overprint, priced at 10 US dollars mint, 15 US dollars used.

The reply card is H&G M4 10 + 10 qint with black overprint, priced at 20 US dollars mint, 15 US dollars used.

The catalogue says that double and inverted overprints are known.

Both sets of prices are from the 1982 price update.

The used prices for reply cards are presumably for single cards as the catalogue has a note that used unservered cards are unknown.
Price update for these from Michel 2002:

5 qint: P2 I, 30€ mint, 60€ used
10/10 qint: P5, 60€ mint, 130€ used
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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by honza »

nigelc wrote: 14 May 2022 22:21
honza wrote: 14 May 2022 18:24
Ahoj again Nigel!

Further to question 9

On further examination I see that my two cards with this overprint have not been surcharged in Turkish currency first.

Was this the case with the items you gave me details of?

Are these overprints on cards with the original Albanian currency thus bogus?

Cheers,

Honza
Hello Honza,

These cards have not been surcharded. They still have their original face values in qintar.

The postage stamps with this design were first issued in quintar in December 1913 (SG 27-32) and then later surcharged in paras in April 1914 (SG 40-45).

Somehow the postage stamps with this design with both the paras surcharges and this anniversary overprint (SG 39-39f) appear to have been issued in Scutari in March 1914.

Three values without paras surcharges were issued with both this anniversary overprint and a large T for use as postage dues (SG 39g-39i) in 1915.

I guess in practice both currencies were in use and people were used to the exchange rate.
Ahoj again!

Sorry Nigel, but I am still confused. I was working off the Michel catalogue and the illustration, though small, definitely shows the PARA overprint and refers to the further overprint being on Mi 41-6.

Looking in SG, the numbering seems out of sequence. As you say, this set is listed as SG 39-39f, but it describes the later SG 40-5 with Turkish currency as being the stamps overprinted.

Am I missing something?

Cheers,

Honza
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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by nigelc »

Ahoy honza,

I don't see any conflict between SG and Michel here.

Let's look at the Scutari "10 MARS 1914" overprint sets.

The postage set is listed by SG as a Scutari local issue in the main Albania listing as SG 39-39f and by Michel under Skutari as Mi 1-6.

Both give an issue date in March 1914 and have the stamp with both paras surcharges and this new overprint.

The postage due set of three is listed by SG as a Scutari local issue in the main Albania listing as SG D39g-D39i (grouped with the earlier postage stamps) and by Michel under Skutari Portomarken as Mi 1-3. I see I didn't quote the SG numbers correctly in my previous post.

Both give an issue date in 1915 and have the stamp with this new overprint and a "T" overprint but no paras surcharges.

Let's now look at the surcharged stamps without the "14 MARS 1914..." overprint.

They are listed as SG 40-45 and Mi 41-46.

Both catalogues agree these were issued in April 1915.

H&G has a photo from a used postcard showing the "14 MARS 1914..." overprint but no Turkish currency surcharge and its listing doesn't mention any surcharges.
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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by honza »

nigelc wrote: 15 May 2022 01:29 Ahoy honza,

I don't see any conflict between SG and Michel here.

Let's look at the Scutari "10 MARS 1914" overprint sets.

The postage set is listed by SG as a Scutari local issue in the main Albania listing as SG 39-39f and by Michel under Skutari as Mi 1-6.

Both give an issue date in March 1914 and have the stamp with both paras surcharges and this new overprint.

The postage due set of three is listed by SG as a Scutari local issue in the main Albania listing as SG D39g-D39i (grouped with the earlier postage stamps) and by Michel under Skutari Portomarken as Mi 1-3. I see I didn't quote the SG numbers correctly in my previous post.

Both give an issue date in 1915 and have the stamp with this new overprint and a "T" overprint but no paras surcharges.

Let's now look at the surcharged stamps without the "14 MARS 1914..." overprint.

They are listed as SG 40-45 and Mi 41-46.

Both catalogues agree these were issued in April 1915.

H&G has a photo from a used postcard showing the "14 MARS 1914..." overprint but no Turkish currency surcharge and its listing doesn't mention any surcharges.


[/quote
Ahoj Nigel!

Thank you for your quick reply. I agree with and understand everything up to the last paragraph.

My examples and B&H have no Turkish currency surcharges, but those listed as Michel 1-6 and SG 39-39f do have Turkish surcharges.

Am I still missing something obvious?

Cheers,

Honza
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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by nigelc »

Ahoy honza!

For the items with the "14 MARS 1914..." overprint:

- Neither the local Scutari postcards nor the postage due stamps were surcharged in Turkish currency.

- The local Scutari postage stamps were surcharged in Turkish currency, I assume using a stock of stamps that had already been printed but not yet issued.
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honza
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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by honza »

Ahoj Nigel!

Thank you for your patience.

Now I understand. The adhesive stamps had two overprints, the stationery only one. Sorry for being so slow in my understanding.

Cheers,

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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by honza »

Ahoj everyone,

I have just found this excellent Albanian collection online.

http://www.exponet.info/exhibit.php?exhibit_ID=1426&lng=EN

Question 11

This is a Skanderbeg 5q green SG 28 which was overprinted 10 pa in the Turkish currency surcharges of 1914. BUT this stamp is overprinted 20 para which was supposed to be the surcharge on the 10q red.
F 20 Pare pale violet overprint on 5q gween Skanderbeg stamp
F 20 Pare pale violet overprint on 5q gween Skanderbeg stamp
In addition the surcharge is in pale violet instead of deep black, is in a different font and reads Pare instead of PARA.

A further mystery is a capital F in the same colour and font as the surcharge.

One immediately thinks of a fantasy stamp, but it comes from a very good collection and there was something about 'parcel use' in pencil.

Has anyone any information on such an issue or has anyone seen anything similar?

Thanks again,

Honza
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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by nigelc »

Ajoy honza,

Perhaps I can add to the confusion if nothing else. ;)

The 2002 Barefoot Albania and Greece Revenues catalogue lists eight revenue stamps from 1914 with similar surcharges, mostly in black but two in violet.

Bft #2 is listed as 20 pa on 5 q green & yellow, but with the surcharge in black (not violet).

Only the 1 Gr on 5 q and the 1 Gr on 10 q are listed as having the surcharge in violet.

I think the example shown in the catalogue is the 1 Gr on 10 q. It has a similar form of lettering including the "F".

My only other reference is an older 1987 booklet called the Alnis Guide to Albania Revenues lists only three (all 1 Gr) surcharges and doesn't mention the colour of the surcharge.

This describes this as a Finance Office Issue.

The letters in the Alnis booklet appeared quite different to me at first but that may just be the result of much more ink and/or denser ink being used.
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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by honza »

Ahoj Nigel!

Thank you for your prompt reply and excellent information. A fiscal stamp makes sense. The manuscript cancel looks like FIER, so that probably pinpoints its place of origin.

Do any of your reference works give an indication of value for similar stamps?

Cheers,

Honza
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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by nigelc »

Barefoot priced the set in 2002 at £50.00 each except for the 1 Gr on 10 q (violet opt) which was priced at £35.00.

The Alnis Guide (1987) lists each of its three values at £15.00.
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Re: Some questions about these Albanian stamps and stationery

Post by honza »

Great information. Thank you very much.

Honza
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