Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

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Greg Ioannou
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Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by Greg Ioannou »

In another thread, Dave wrote:
Revenuer wrote:This is where this board allows us to sit at home and throw unknowns on the scanner.

Dave
Exactly! So here I go again.

I'm sifting through Tassie manuscript cancels tonight, sorting postal cancels from revenue cancels and such. I have two at the moment that have me stumped. The first is this trimmed-down front:

Image

The cancel reads Torquay 27/7/57. But the postmark is upside down, which seems ... eccentric ... for a manuscript cancel. Is there any way I can determine whether the stamp originated on the cover?

Why would the postmarker write the cancel upside down? Was it perhaps cancelled before being attached to the envelope?

Here's the second puzzle of the night:

Image

Gorgeously homely, isn't it? The question is simple: What is the cancel?

Greg
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Post by RolyRJ »

Greg

Just a comment on your first item. Cut and paste just the stamp into a good image processor and you will see that the signature starts and finishes excatly on the edges of the stamp.

Either the person signing the stamp was extreemly clever of (as I suspect) the stamp has been trimmed and then stuck onto the cover.

If the above is not true then I would expect to see even the slightest suggestion of the signature tied to the cover. Others may have other thoughts.

Cheers

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Post by GJ50 »

Stamp has been added. The signature would definitely be on the cover if the stamp was applied first.
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Post by Greg Ioannou »

RolyRJ wrote:Just a comment on your first item. Cut and paste just the stamp into a good image processor and you will see that the signature starts and finishes exactly on the edges of the stamp. Either the person signing the stamp was extreemly clever of (as I suspect) the stamp has been trimmed and then stuck onto the cover.
Thanks. I agree. It is conceivable that the stamp was cancelled then stuck to the cover, but that does seem unlikely. It also seems unlikely that either a faker or a postmaster would put it on the cover upside-down. Unless the faker couldn't read the cancel?

(By the way, according to the collector's notes, the piece was bought at a Status International sale (sale date and number not given), lot 1492, described at "Postmark. Manuscript Torquay 27/9/59 on 4d blue QV Chalon wmk numeral 4 attached to large part cover front addressed to Launceston." Estimated at $120-$150, it sold for $130.)

The loose stamp was in an envelope of junky States stuff. Just the "provenance" you'd expect from such a looker.

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Post by ozstamps »

Greg my first thought was why 4d for the local letter when 1d was normal rate?

Clearly it was oversize, and do not 4d was Europe rate, so seemed odd 4d was used for starters, but might have been weight step related of course.

Stamps back then were required to be placed in top corners when single use pretty much. This cover was I'd guess an inch or so longer at right edge. So a solo stamp where it is now looks suss to me.

The odd thing is the stamp is postal used in the 1850s, Torquay being a known user of pen cancels.

I blew it up on my screen and am not so sure the start of of the T is NOT on the stamp. Had it been soaked i.e. 'did not below' the ink would have run.

The 1d red looks like an ugly fiscal - to me anyway!

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

ozstamps wrote:Greg my first thought was why 4d for the local letter when 1d was normal rate?

[Image
I just finished looking that part up. The 1d rate was for local letters. Torquay to Launceston would have been 2d per half ounce. So 4d isn't too unlikely.

In fact, you rarely see a 1d Tas chalon pen cancelled. The 1d was for deliveries within the town. The towns that didn't have postmark hammers were so small it was sort of pointless dropping a letter off for someone at the post office. I have a couple of pen cancels on the 2d, but most are on the 4d.

As for the ink running, here are some other Torquays off envelope. They survive pretty well. (Torquay and Brighton seem to be the easiest manuscript cancels to find.)

Image

And the penny red looks more like a postal cancel than a revenue to me, but that's a late stamp to have a manuscript postal cancel. That stamp's becoming a deciphering challenge for me.

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Post by ozstamps »

Greg, I stick with my point. All 3 examples you show have clear ink run/fading to me, and the one on cover does not. IMHO.

Can you please blow up the stamp on cover - I'd like to see where the T starts. It APPEARS to be just within the margin.
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Post by Greg Ioannou »

ozstamps wrote:Greg, I stick with my point. All 3 examples you show have clear ink run/fading to me, and the one on cover does not. IMHO.
And you say I have sharp eyes! I think you're right:

Image
ozstamps wrote:Can you please blow up the stamp on cover - I'd like to see where the T starts. It APPEARS to be just within the margin.
And you're right on this bit too:

Image

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Post by GJ50 »

On the right side the ink goes right to the edge, so I would expect something on the cover.
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Post by ozstamps »

Greg .. great scans. 8)

Yes that is how the left arm of T looked to me, proving me me that it may well be a genuine MS use on cover.

The odd thing is the final tail of the y ... I am most surprised it would end so nearly as it does right on the margin. You'd expect a mm or two of it to "tie" to cover.

But as Roly says, might just be a lucky accident of placement. A fast writer might have been flipping the wrist up on the final stroke thus lifting the nib slightly upwards at this point, and with the stamp being higher than the cover it just missed "tieing'.

I really feel this stamp has not ever been soaked .... the final crisply separated downward nib stroke of the final 9 would have dissipated and weakened in water if that were the case.

Due to the final tail of Y and odd placement of stamp, still a bit iffy, but on balance and with your excellent scans, my professional guess is that the stamp belongs.
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Post by ozstamps »

A few other MS on cover, inc Torquay.

A nice collectible cover even if a little reduced. :)

On second glance the cover is not reduced as much at right as it first appeared to me.

Image
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Post by GJ50 »

I sent the scan of the cover to an expert on Tasmanian material and for what it is worth his reply was
I have seen a few covers with mss post office endorsements and they
are rarely tied. Torquay did not get a numeral obliterator until
1861. I would have been happier if it had the postmasters endorsement
on the cover as was the usual proceedure
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Post by Browny »

Just a thought.....

Is the adressee G.Adams as in Tattersalls????

In which case he only moved into Tasmania in 1895.

I have covers where his business address varies considerably, as does the business name. (from banking, painting, temple house, etc)

Can anyone confirm that there was a solicitor of that name in the colony at that time?

cheers.
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Post by Greg Ioannou »

Browny wrote:Just a thought.....

Is the addressee G.Adams as in Tattersalls????

In which case he only moved into Tasmania in 1895.
Interesting question! It never occurred to me, because it seems to be such an early cover. I associate that blue paper with earlier covers, too.

By the way, I love your avatar. What a great postmark!

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Post by RolyRJ »

Just to put another spin on this one :)

Here is something to consider. Just put aside the question about the validatity of the stamp for a moment and consider if the cover itself is genuine.

I note that the cover has been folded at sometime into quarters. The fold lines still show quite clearly. Now one would reasonably assume that the cover would have been folded after it had been addressed? In which case would it be reasonable to think you would see some evidence of the folding transfered to the ink used to address the envelope? ie. cracking, creasing, wear in the ink where the folds occur?

A close examination of the cover may reveal that the writing was added to the cover post folding it which would be odd in my opinion. So maybe, just maybe, the whole thing is a contrivance?

Just a thought

cheers

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Post by admin »

Question - were there any FISCAL pen cancels used on the 1855 STAR wmk issues?

I can't recall seeing any, and wonder what year fiscal use was in common practice on the postage stamps?
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Post by admin »

OK, my initial hunch was right. :)

After an hour search through my reference books, I found the piece I needed. 8)

Large Star Wmk issues cannot be fiscally used unless they were used thus years after the numeral Wmk imperfs came on stream. Which was implausible.

Indeed other than Hobart and Launceston offices, early uses of star wmks were often ONLY pen cancelled in various forms from smaller PO's.

"Tasmania The Postal History and Postal Markings" - The "Bible". Purves et al.


Image

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Post by admin »

The last par answers my question as to whether a trace of a single pen line was postal or fiscal use:

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Post by Greg Ioannou »

I've used that book until my copy is literally falling apart, and until now have never understood the significance of that October 1863 date.

Thanks for pulling that together!

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Post by admin »

Greg .. yes it proves beyond any doubt that ANY Star Wmk or No Wmk imperf Chalon cannot be fiscal used no matter what the pen cancel.

I never realised it was that cut and dried. :D
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Post by Greg Ioannou »

Neither did I. Obviously well worth knowing. And somewhat surprising.

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Post by admin »

I generally like to learn one new thing about stamps each day. :)

This is one of those days. :idea:
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Re: Early Tasmanian manuscript cancel discussion

Post by Tas Philatelist »

Although the 4d on the front is not quite tied, the cover is probably genuine.

I have seen a 6d rate inland cover from 1858 from Torquay also to GP Adams on Launceston, with he stamp well-tied.

Torquay did not receive a numeral obliterator until 1861. 4d was the inland rate during 1859.

Browny - he was no relation to George Adams, this was far too early. :)
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Re: Early Tasmanian manuscript cancel discussion

Post by admin »

Image
This is a 1857 4d I was adding to stock today.

Definitely a POSTAL cancel in my view. Anyone disagree? :mrgreen:

Image
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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by Old Yeti »

The stamp below came as part of a lot i bought on eBay. I have been wondering whether it's genuine or a fake. I apologise for the large image, I tried to make it as clear as possible. Thanks

Image


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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by admin »

That image size is ideal Alex .. even bigger if you can!

Stamp and (ugly postal pen) cancel both 100% genuine.

The Bassett Hull book specifically mentions that bored postal clerks in remote outposts often whiled away the time snipping off the edges of the 4d couriers.

Sad but true, and are often seen on piece on cover mutilated thus.

The cds says PAID along top I'd guess.
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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by Old Yeti »

Thanks Glenn :)
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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Image
A 4 margin SG 15 I am adding to Rarity Page today.

Interestingly, the accompanying RPSV Certificate (2009) states "the pen cancel is in accordance with the instructions to postmasters".
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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by Bunge »

Hi Stampers,

I bought some stamps in the UK recently and this one caught my eye.. As far as I know this is my one and only Manuscript Cancel..

I think it is a fairly common one as I have seen similar before, can someone give me a few details about this cancel..

Image

Cheers Bunge :P
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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by Greg Ioannou »

#12 is Brighton, Bunge. Yes, one of the easier ones to find. But none of them are exactly common.

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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by traralgon3844 »

I picked these up some years back and posted the images way back then.

All interesting to me at the time and all probable postal use.

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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by mickeyfinn »

In traralgon3844's image above, there are numeral manuscript cancels from the two different allocations of numeral cancels in Tasmania.

From the first allocation: '13' was used Bothwell and is rated 'R'; '36' was used at Huon and unrated

From the second allocation: '27' is of particular interest as the number was reserved for Eastern Marshes but an example of a BN27 handstamp that could have been used there is yet to be seen. Another manuscript '27' from 1869 has been recorded by Hardinge. From 1883 the BN27 handstamp from the First Allocation used at Emu Bay (later Burnie) was put back into use at Frankford.

'52' was used at Launceston and it is believed to have been used for cancelling uncancelled stamps.

The Tasmanian Philatelic Society has published much up-to-date information on both allocations of numeral postmarks (including manuscript cancellations) in their research journal 'The Courier'. In Edition 29 (June 2000) there is an extensive article by Randall Askeland entitled "Tasmania: The First Numeral Allocation Revisited". The information including rarity ratings provided in this article is regarded as the most accurate available.
For information about Tasmanian stamps, postal history, postmarks, revenues, postcards, etc. visit the Tasmanian Philatelic Society Website at http://tps.org.au
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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by Greg Ioannou »

mickeyfinn wrote:The Tasmanian Philatelic Society has published much up-to-date information on both allocations of numeral postmarks (including manuscript cancellations) in their research journal 'The Courier'. In Edition 29 (June 2000) there is an extensive article by Randall Askeland entitled "Tasmania: The First Numeral Allocation Revisited". The information including rarity ratings provided in this article is regarded as the most accurate available.
Of course they did. The run of The Courier on my bookshelf has editions 27, 28, 30, 31...

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Re:

Post by Machaggis52 »

RolyRJ wrote:Greg

Just a comment on your first item. Cut and paste just the stamp into a good image processor and you will see that the signature starts and finishes excatly on the edges of the stamp.

Either the person signing the stamp was extreemly clever of (as I suspect) the stamp has been trimmed and then stuck onto the cover.

If the above is not true then I would expect to see even the slightest suggestion of the signature tied to the cover. Others may have other thoughts.

Cheers

Roly
I agree with you.
With kind regards, Jim
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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by traralgon3844 »

I was going through a pile of KGV and States material tonight and found this manuscript cancel from Westbury May 7 1909.

I can only presume the date stamp was unavailable.

Image
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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by mickeyfinn »

Manuscript cancels were used at Westbury for a short period whilst the worn Type 1 canceller was 'away' for repairs (it was re-cut). May 7th 1909 is the ERD for this mss cancel and May 11th is the LRD. The cancellation is rated RRRR by Hardinge.
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Re: Re:

Post by Global Administrator »

Machaggis52 wrote:
RolyRJ wrote:Greg

Just a comment on your first item. Cut and paste just the stamp into a good image processor and you will see that the signature starts and finishes excatly on the edges of the stamp.

Either the person signing the stamp was extreemly clever of (as I suspect) the stamp has been trimmed and then stuck onto the cover.

If the above is not true then I would expect to see even the slightest suggestion of the signature tied to the cover. Others may have other thoughts.

Cheers

Roly
I agree with you.

Well I still do not. Stamp has NOT been soaked .. that much is clear. :)

Close up shows cancel is wholly on the stamp.

Greg Ioannou wrote:
ozstamps wrote:Greg, I stick with my point. All 3 examples you show have clear ink run/fading to me, and the one on cover does not. IMHO.
And you say I have sharp eyes! I think you're right:

Image
ozstamps wrote:Can you please blow up the stamp on cover - I'd like to see where the T starts. It APPEARS to be just within the margin.
And you're right on this bit too:

Image

Greg
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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by traralgon3844 »

mickeyfinn wrote: From the second allocation: '27' is of particular interest as the number was reserved for Eastern Marshes but an example of a BN27 handstamp that could have been used there is yet to be seen. Another manuscript '27' from 1869 has been recorded by Hardinge. From 1883 the BN27 handstamp from the First Allocation used at Emu Bay (later Burnie) was put back into use at Frankford.
Thanks Mickey,

That's two nice manuscript cancels I've found (see above re: another cancel earlier in the thread.)

The 27 is amongst my detritus in the stamp room SOMEWHERE, I must make a point to put this one away somewhere safe and locateable.

The 27 won't be lost but just don't ask me to put my hands on it at the moment.
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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

Image
Pretty piece I loaded up today. :)

Tasmania 1855 4d Blue Star Wmk, Imperf strip with POSTAL cancel: The first allocation of numerical cancellers did not reach all offices quickly, and TORQUAY used manuscript to postally cancel all imperfs until it got a numeral in 1861.

This is a sound strip 4 of the 4d Blue, with COMPLETE M/S “Registered Torquay 16/8/56”. 1/4d was the rate to UK. No thins or tears or creases or foxing etc.

The massive difference in height of stamps on each sheet position can readily be seen, comparing height of units #1 to #4. Tas fiscal use was not started until Oct 1863 so ALL star wmk pen cancels are postal. Singles with “Torquay” are seen, but pretty rare are full Reg’d cancel like this. SG 19 £520.

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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by traralgon3844 »

Images repaired
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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

traralgon3844 wrote:I was going through a pile of KGV and States material tonight and found this manuscript cancel from Westbury May 7 1909.

I can only presume the date stamp was unavailable.

Image
A rare cancel - so many would assume it was fiscal!

Great job rescuing images in this thread. :mrgreen:
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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by David Smitham »

Currently I am working with a number of 1853 4d Courier stamps, two of which have different manuscript cancels.

Image

As may be seen the above stamp has what I believe to be AN manuscript cancel. The other has 51 within a fancy frame.

I suspect that the 2nd is from Launceston, but I do not know. I have seen a few in auction catalogues so my guess is that they are not super scarce.

As for the illustrated stamp, any ideas please as to where it originated from, also, any idea as to how scarce this manuscript is, please?

Thank you.
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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by Global Administrator »

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David -- yes looks like someone's initials for sure --- probably not ''AN'' though?

To update this thread, I added this rare OYSTER COVE Tasmania manuscript cancel to another thread. They have fetched over $1000 at Prestige Auctions in the past - which I discovered AFTER I'd priced it at $100! Oh well. :mrgreen:

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=92902

OYSTER COVE never had a postmark .. it was where they banished the last 2 dozen Tasmania Aborigines including TRUGANINNI - their number was down to 12 alive when this cover was mailed in 1869

Glen


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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by MJ's pet »

David Smitham wrote: 19 Feb 2020 11:50 Currently I am working with a number of 1853 4d Courier stamps, two of which have different manuscript cancels.

Image

As may be seen the above stamp has what I believe to be AN manuscript cancel. The other has 51 within a fancy frame.

I suspect that the 2nd is from Launceston, but I do not know. I have seen a few in auction catalogues so my guess is that they are not super scarce.

As for the illustrated stamp, any ideas please as to where it originated from, also, any idea as to how scarce this manuscript is, please?

Thank you.


51 is Prosser's Plains. Not Launceston (Have you got a scan of that?)

Some people who have separated from reality long ago think the postmark depicted is the initials of a particular Postmaster. This is entirely speculative of course as the handwriting and initials of the said Postmaster have never been verified against other documents. Looks rather like a squiggle which were made in all types of patterns and formations.

These are not super scarce but are popular and will sell. The stamp is cut to shape, not square, so think about that when estimating.
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Re: Early Tasmanian stamps manuscript cancel discussion

Post by admin »

MJ's pet wrote: 09 Nov 2020 10:49
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Looks rather like a squiggle which were made in all types of patterns and formations.

Looks very much like initials of the relevant clerk to me. :!:

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