"Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs?

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"Blue Owl's Stamps" selling forged perfins, and re-perfs?

Post by starling »

It might be useful to have a thread on possible re-perfs (that aren't covered under the stampcollectorboz / gottacute / Joanne620 shame-files here) that people find on Ebay or other sites? I don't think we already have one?

To start off I have this possible partial re-perf from ebay seller blueowl2000, (Blue Owl's Stamps) it finished 6th July 2011 and sold for AUS$1,102. It is a MUH 5/- Kangaroo 1st watermark.

It is an attractive looking stamp, and according to the description has 'outragously [sic] fresh and original gum'.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1913-Australia-5-Roo-1st-Wmk-MUH-Retail-2250-/260810061898

Image

Image

To me it looks like a 'jumbo-perf.' example, i.e. an extra wide gap between the two perf. holes at the bottom.

There should be a wider than normal 'tooth' at either side of the bottom. There is on one side, but the other looks to have had an extra perf. hole added?

When the 'tooth' is so wide, very uneven tearing can result when the stamps are separated and my guess is that the lower right side had a big divot or gouge where there is now a 'neat' perf, added later to improve the appearance.

I'm not suggesting that the seller did this, and he certainly hasn't noticed it because it isn't mentioned in the description.

Anyway, that is just my theory. I await more knowledgable judgements.

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Re: Does this look like a re-perf.?

Post by Global Administrator »

Yep some dope has ruined an otherwise OK SG 13.

APTA members - and he is one - were recently issued a heavy written warning that the high standard of descriptions expected of them to the public, applies to ebay just as much, and there had been complaints to APTA this not being adhered to in some recent cases.

This is NOT "a lovely stamp" - it is a sadly butchered re-perf ... obvious to all I'd have thought.

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by starling »

This is another lot fom blueowl2000. It isn't a re-perf., but looks to be a 4d orange Kangaroo punctured large OS with a possible fake cancel, and being from the same dealer, might as well keep it in this thread.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1913-Australia-4d-Orange-Yellow-K ... 3cb94ced8c

If I have learnt only one thing from Stampboards (and I have learnt many things) it is that Glen has mentioned on many occasions that MELBOURNE VIC-AUST cancels didn't exist in 1913 when this stamp was around, and is in fact a fake cancel applied to rusted or otherwise gum defective stamps by an unnamed Melbourne dealer some time in the past. I'm assuming this is the cancel that has been mentioned on many occasions, or is it a contemporary cancel?

Image

It is offered as a Buy-It-Now for only $275.00.


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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by starling »

While I'm at it, here is another lot from blueowl2000. A 2/- Kangaroo 1st watermark with large perf. OS and possibly suspect perfs at the base. The stamp looks a bit short vertically and the row of perfs wonky?

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1913-Australia-2s-Kangaroo-Large- ... 3cb93bb018

ImageImage

It sold on 28th June 2011 for $325.99, and the buyer (according to the feedback) is bryanpayne55 (who has bought stuff from me, so I can contact him if this turns out to be dodgy).

I'm going to stop looking at blueowl2000's listings for now, or I'll be here all day :!:


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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by aethelwulf »

That last one looks certainly odd to me...the LL corner perf is a little hangnail, and seems too clean-cut, the bottom perfs seem to slope slightly upwards right to left, and the OS puncture seems to be on a slant as well.
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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by compoundperf »

Morning All ,

Well what do we have here , Blue Owl is I believe a Well respected Victorian Stamp dealer .

http://cgi3.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=blueowl2000&refid=store

Some one should contact him for a comment

Regards

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by starling »

Well, the seller blueowl2000 just gets worse!

I checked his web-site to see if he had anything else dodgy, and noticed his mailing address. It was exactly the same as someone who had bought something off me only last week, registered with ebay as "logonbid".

It gets queerer because one of the items I sold to logonbid was a 2/- Kangaroo 1st watermark with a reperfed base.

ImageImage

I described it as having a reperfed base, it does, doesn't it? Whether it does or does not, I thought it best to err on the side of caution.

I am hyper-vigilant about reperfs because one of my Ebay lots was flagged by Glen a year or more back as being a reperf that I hadn't spotted.

I was so horrified and ashamed that I made it my mission to be able to identify reperfs and be highly critical of them :oops:

Anyway, I checked through "blueowl2000" and "logonbid" feedback and found that logonbid has been bidding actively on blueowl2000's lots!

I reported this to Ebay not one hour ago and I already have a response that they have found this to be a case of shill bidding, bravo Ebay for such quick action.

Their mutual feedback has already disappeared, and I wait for the coming hours to see if one or both get de-registered.

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by compoundperf »

Hi Scott ,

Well that is fantastic Detective work can`t wait to here the out come.

Regards

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by starling »

Thanks compoundperf, I had other things planned for this morning, but I think I put my time to good use 8)

I looked at the bidding history for the 5/- Kangaroo that started this thread.

http://offer.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p4340.l2565&item=260810061898

His shill, codename in the list b***d pushed up poor bryanpayne55 (code 5***e) from $792 to the final price of $1102. Maybe I should report this too?


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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by compoundperf »

Hi Scott ,

Yes I would most definitely report it, not sure whether to local Police or the AFP in this instance.

Regards

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by pandadog28 »

Quite frankly Scott, i reckon you are full of , well you know what.

I agree one of the 2/ does look to be reperfed on the base , but the rest are fine, especially those from the base of the sheet.

You need to do more homework before you start slagging names around and especially those of a very well respected dealer here in melbourne and a personal friend of mine.

Not quite sure why the moderators of this board have let this happen so unashmadely.

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by starling »

Thanks for your input pandadog.

I am very sorry to have smeared such a well-respected stamp-dealer. I liberally used question marks throughout this thread because I quite simply did not know and needed input from more knowlegable people like yourself.

If, as you say, all the stamps (except mine) are kosher then I un-reservedly apologise. I'm sure when the moderators look at this thread they'll do the right thing.


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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by The Pom »

MODERATOR COMMENT

This thread is currently under Moderator discussion.

It will remain open for the moment for the following reasons:

1. A consensus of opinion is required as to whether or not any or all of the above stamps are reperfed. At the moment (Glen's opinion aside) we have two members who disagree - far from a consensus.

2. It seems to have been shown that an APTA registered dealer has been shill bidding on ebay. If so, this merits further discussion.

However:

People should be mindful of what they say. Even if all the stamps are reperfed, that doesn't mean the seller realised, or was involved in the reperfing.
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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by starling »

For the record, here is a cut-and-paste of the reply that Ebay sent me regards the shill bidding, it includes my original complaint to them at the bottom. The bolding is mine.

Hi Scott,

Good day to you and thanks for reaching to eBay regarding your report
about blueowl2000 bidding their own listing. I understand that it's
unfair because there are lots of eBayer who want to get the item
cheaper. My name is Carl, let me help you with this.

Scott, Shill Bidding is bidding that artificially increases an item's
price or apparent desirability, or bidding by individuals with a level
of access to the seller's item information not available to the general
Community. Shill Bidding is prohibited on eBay.

Because family members, friends, roommates and employees of sellers have
a level of access to item information which is not available to the
general Community, they are not permitted to bid on items offered by the
seller --- even if their sole intent is to purchase the item.

I have thoroughly investigated your report about blueowl2000 and found
out that they have violated eBay's Policy.
Rest assured that I already
taken an appropriate action towards their account basing on our strict
Shill Bidding Policy. Consequences ranged from a warning to closing
their account. Sometimes sanctions on a seller's account are not made
public, such as selling restrictions and loss of selling discounts, and
privileges. This is to prove that members who violate any of our site
policy will be dealt with accordingly. Since it's a personal information
about another member, we can't disclose it.

I appreciate that you have reported this to us. These situations are
very rare, but we do take them seriously, that is why we highly
appreciate your report and help in keeping eBay a safe and trustworthy
marketplace.

Thank you for being a long time valued member of the eBay community.

Warm regards,

Carl D.

Trust and Safety Team

Original Message Follows:
------------------------

Form Message: %13243% 061798
D_ID070620111842D_ID/W_ID238942775W_ID/S_ID015S_ID/C_ID5016918721C_ID
Subject: IV%P10092 Shill Bidding [#US A10 30273T ?01 G99]
User Feedback: 3041
User State: ?01

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Home > Help > Membership & account > Rules & policies > Shill
bidding > Shill Bidding

Item number(s):
250830161295 L22 $AU AU !42353! 122703 ?01 -01
250829531616 L22 $AU AU !42353! 122703 ?01 -01

Message: The seller blueowl2000 and the bidder logonbid both have the
same mailing address.

Blueowl2000 is a dealer in Melbourne and his address on his about me
page is the same as logonbid's.

Logonbid has bid on multiple auctions with blueowl2000 and has 'won' at
least two. They have left each other feedback.

This is blatant shill bidding.

Thanks.

Scott
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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

starling wrote:While I'm at it, here is another lot from blueowl2000. A 2/- Kangaroo 1st watermark with large perf. OS and possibly suspect perfs at the base. The stamp looks a bit short vertically and the row of perfs wonky?

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1913-Australia-2s-Kangaroo-Large- ... 3cb93bb018

ImageImage

It sold on 28th June 2011 for $325.99, and the buyer (according to the feedback) is bryanpayne55 (who has bought stuff from me, so I can contact him if this turns out to be dodgy).

I'm going to stop looking at blueowl2000's listings for now, or I'll be here all day :!:

Scott
Well spotted Scott. Thread re-opened, and thanks to the other Mods for keeping a vigilant eye on it. :)

I can confirm that the 2/- Mint OS is re-perfed on TWO sides for certain.

If an experienced mint Roo buyer like pandadog can't spot the amateur re-perf at the left, , and denies it is there, the clueless Bunnies on ebay have zero chance. That's the big worry.

The stamp in post 1 some ebay cretin paid $1,100+ for, and if offered to me would get less than HALF that, as it is a screamingly obvious re-perf.

These are VERY expensive stamps being sold, and by an APTA member - who is obliged to describe ALL repairs and obvious faults and alterations, no matter where he sells them.

I am sure blueowl2000 will offer an immediate refund and apology to the clueless buyers of these re-perfs, as he is obliged to do. And re-offer them described accurately.

I am on planes between Dubai, USA and Bolivia right now, so no chance to check into the shill bidding, but that is most serious for any large dealer, and should be reported to APTA and ebay - it is NOT ON.

There is no "smearing" a dealer here - ebay themselves agree in writing BlueOwl2000 was shill bidding - see below. As I recall he joined as a member here, so can add his own version of events if he so wishes.

"I have thoroughly investigated your report about blueowl2000 and found out that they have violated eBay's Policy. Rest assured that I already taken an appropriate action towards their account basing on our strict Shill Bidding Policy."

As posted above APTA members were warned heavily only a few weeks back that ebay lots from members MUST be described ACCURATELY according to their Code Of Ethics.

The 4d Roo does have a rather curious cancel, but oddly that one IS perfectly legit, (and is PO CTO) and THAT stamp is not re-perforated. It may well be a bleached 4d common shade of course, and it is likely the perfin is fake as the PO with not CTO large OS. The RJ totally fake cancels say "VIC AUST" and this one does not. Examples of those are on same thread below.

My scans of Arthur Gray's set of that same unusual cancel seen on the 4d that he asked me to record here recently, are found on the CTO thread here -

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20138&start=824

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

starling wrote:Well, the seller blueowl2000 just gets worse!

I checked his web-site to see if he had anything else dodgy, and noticed his mailing address. It was exactly the same as someone who had bought something off me only last week, registered as logonbid.

It gets queerer because one of the items I sold to logonbid was a 2/- Kangaroo 1st watermark with a reperfed base.

ImageImage

I described it as having a reperfed base, it does, doesn't it? Whether it does or does not, I thought it best to err on the side of caution. I am hyper-vigilant about reperfs because one of my Ebay lots was flagged by Glen a year or more back as being a reperf that I hadn't spotted. I was so horrified and ashamed that I made it my mission to be able to identify reperfs and be highly critical of them :oops:

Anyway, I checked through blueowl2000's and logonbid's feedback and found that logonbid has been bidding actively on blueowl2000's lots! I reported this to Ebay not one hour ago and I already have a response that they have found this to be a case of shill bidding, bravo Ebay for such quick action.

Their mutual feedback has already disappeared, and I wait for the coming hours to see if one or both get de-registered.

Scott
Oddly that is NOT re-perfed at base (it does look like it might be I agree at first glance) however I'll bet the house the amateur heavy hinge placement is hiding a hinge thin!

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by starling »

Thanks Glen for injecting some sense in to the debate :D

Sorry to blueowl2000 about the 4d Kanagroo above. My fault for only partially remembering some good advice from Glen :oops: I retract any critisism about that stamp, and apologise.

But I guess the major point here is the shill bidding.

blueowl2000 = Mr. Jude Koch
logonbid = Mrs. Bridgit Koch

logonbid has been registered on Ebay for over 5 years, blueowl2000 for just under 8 years.

Here is the all the logonbid bidding activity over the past month and she has had 2% activity with blueowl2000. I know that code name b***d is logonbid because she bought a couple of items from me last week.

Image

Ebay know about this, have verified there has been shill bidding and are investigating.


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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by woodster »

Further to the debate, I would question the authenticity of the large OS punctures of the 4d and 2/-.

They don't look right to me.

I am also not sure I am comfortable with Starling being accused of being "full of it" when, in my opinion, there is a genuine cause for concern - especially about the shill bidding

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by mobbor »

I must admit that I can't pick re-perfs very easily, but the evidence on shill bidding looks damning.

However, I hope to hear further from Pandadog & even Blueowl, before I consign his frequent emails to the bin.
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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by pandadog28 »

Lets see some evidence for the 5/ being reperfed, i would love to know what conspiracy theories can be made of it.

First of all look through the Arthur Gray catalog at stamps from the bottom and the external edge of a sheet and then state your argument, if its a reperf then 20% of Arthurs were as well.

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by starling »

Can the vastly more knowlegable members of this board please give their expert opinion on this one as well? I'm just not sure any more and need some expert guidance :?:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1913-Australia-2-d-Indigo-Roo-OS- ... 3cb98697cc

ImageImage

It was sold by blueowl2000 for $287 on 7th July 2011.


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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by woodster »

pandadog28 wrote:Lets see some evidence for the 5/ being reperfed, i would love to know what conspiracy theories can be made of it.

First of all look through the Arthur Gray catalog at stamps from the bottom and the external edge of a sheet and then state your argument, if its a reperf then 20% of Arthurs were as well.
Fair enough and re-perfing is often difficult to identify absolutely.

However, I would suggest this thread has brought to light more important questions...

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by Lambinator »

I have been following this thread and was hoping someone would comment on the OS perfs on the 2/- roo:

ImageImage

Many of the holes in the OS do not look precisely circular, but have bulges on one side or another. Many of the hole-shapes look like two superimposed but not exactly aligned circles, rather a single circle. I.e the OS looks to me as if it has been punched twice.

Also re the angle of the OS perfin. Aethelwulf said:
the OS puncture seems to be on a slant as well
I copied the image into my Irfanview (free image processing software) and I had to turn the stamp 2.0 degrees to get the OS level. I'm not familiar with how the perferating machinery worked. Would an angle like that mean that the OS punctures on other stamps in that row would be progressively higher (to the right) and lower (to the left) until they were off the edge of the stamp?

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by woodster »

As I pointed out in an earlier post, the OS doesnt look right.

First hole in the upper part of s (the one pointing down) needs to be over to the left about 1mm...

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by pandadog28 »

woodster wrote:
pandadog28 wrote:Lets see some evidence for the 5/ being reperfed, i would love to know what conspiracy theories can be made of it.

First of all look through the Arthur Gray catalog at stamps from the bottom and the external edge of a sheet and then state your argument, if its a reperf then 20% of Arthurs were as well.
Fair enough and re-perfing is often difficult to identify absolutely.

However, I would suggest this thread has brought to light more important questions...
Well, for all the bunnies that buy stamps off feebay i guess that is what is to be expected. A collection built on feebay is one that is bound to have many many dodgy stamps.

Reperfing and o. s. punctures will always be debatable and open to scrutiny, personally i only purchase these from old, long standing collections through only expert dealers in the field.

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by bsward »

I'd suggest that arguing over genuineness of the OS punctures and reperfing is, at this point, entirely missing the point.

For any reputable dealer to engage in shill bidding on the scale of this dealer is entirely wrong. Shill bidding is illegal in the UK (for very good reasons) and, may well also be in Australia. That this was carried out on eBay is entirely irrelevant.

Dealers who participate in such behaviour should be actively named and shamed. I personally would not buy from this dealer and would encourage others not to.

A dealer's previous good reputation should not give him permission to exploit customers.

Ben

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by GlenStephens »

pandadog28 wrote:Lets see some evidence for the 5/ being reperfed, i would love to know what conspiracy theories can be made of it.

First of all look through the Arthur Gray catalog at stamps from the bottom and the external edge of a sheet and then state your argument, if its a reperf then 20% of Arthur's were as well.
Martin the 'EVIDENCE' is there for anyone with a set of eyes to see.

If you can't see that has been reperfed after being told 3 times it is, heaven help you when you come to sell.

As to the Gray comments they are utter nonsense and deserve no response other than to point out how absurd they are - but as you can't pick obvious re-perfs that are pointed out to you, that does not surprise me, at least!

The 2/- Roo has a crudely forged OS perfin too, I meant to add.

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by The Pom »

GlenStephens wrote:
pandadog28 wrote:Lets see some evidence for the 5/ being reperfed, i would love to know what conspiracy theories can be made of it.

First of all look through the Arthur Gray catalog at stamps from the bottom and the external edge of a sheet and then state your argument, if its a reperf then 20% of Arthurs were as well.
Martin the 'EVIDENCE' is there for anyone with a set of eyes to see.
You wanted Evidence Martin? How about this for evidence?
Current and recent auctions bid on by blueowl2000:

110697185840 05-Jun-11 15-Jun-11 16:05:18 AU $159.99 AUSTRALIA KANGAROO 2 1/2 d BLUE 1st WATERMARK MNH

Link to the item, sold just over 3 weeks ago for $125 (15 Jun, bolded above):

https://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110697185840

Picture from the ebay listing:

Image


And from BlueOwl's website at $200:

https://blueowlsstamps.com.au/rDetails1b.asp?cat=RooWmk&CAT2= ... 10&this=it

Picture from his website:

Image


The two pictures resized to be similar in size. Note the following features showing them to be the same stamp:
Break in Qld coast at Cooktown.
Break in inner frame level with Townsville.
Irregular inner frame right of NNY.
Shade breaks above WO PE.
Dents in end of value tablet left of TWO.
Weak ends to shading lines inside left frame level with Roo's throat.


ImageImage

Sorry Martin, but your good friend appears to be a crook. Might be time to have a close look at a few items in your collection.

Anyone reporting him to APTA may like to note that the last time I reported an APTA member, the response came from Jude Koch aka Blue Owl. I assume that APTA have a system where members take it in turns to respond to incoming mail.
Always on the lookout for Australian pre decimal First Day Covers.

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by starling »

The Pom all I can say is :shock:

Much better detective work than I was able to do! I can also see that the 'untouched' perfs are precisely the same in each scan.

I have reported about eight separate auctions to Ebay that logonbid (aka Mrs Koch) has bid on over the last three months.

Have only had stock-standard 'thank you for your report, yadda yadda' replies so far, but I guess it is the weekend and someone with the clout to have him de-listed isn't at work.


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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by woodster »

Oh Dear.
This is not good news!

The tidying up of the perfs on the 2½d is a damn good one as well.

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by woodster »

....have also just identified some purchases by Logonbid
which are now listed on the Blueowl website with the perfs
touched up a bit.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110603583233

£1 grey roo 3rd W/M type D specimen now on the Blueowl website. Doesnt look to be reperfed but more given a "trim"

Many purchases by Logonbid so someone with the time can do a thorough search.

My guess is Logonbid will suddenly tone down their buying activities shortly.

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by woodster »

pandadog28 wrote:
woodster wrote:
pandadog28 wrote:Lets see some evidence for the 5/ being reperfed, i would love to know what conspiracy theories can be made of it.

First of all look through the Arthur Gray catalog at stamps from the bottom and the external edge of a sheet and then state your argument, if its a reperf then 20% of Arthurs were as well.
Fair enough and re-perfing is often difficult to identify absolutely.

However, I would suggest this thread has brought to light more important questions...
Well, for all the bunnies that buy stamps off feebay i guess that is what is to be expected. A collection built on feebay is one that is bound to have many many dodgy stamps.

Adding to your comments about Ebay, it appears Blueowl sources a lot of material from Ebay as well...

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by Global Administrator »

The Pom wrote:
Sorry Martin, but your good friend appears to be a crook. Might be time to have a close look at a few items in your collection.

Anyone reporting him to APTA may like to note that the last time I reported an APTA member, the response came from Jude Koch aka Blue Owl. I assume that APTA have a system where members take it in turns to respond to incoming mail.
Very sadly I must agree the 2½d Roo above is the same stamp.

Jude Koch I do recall was a Committee member of APTA, so maybe that is why you had a response from him at that time Chris?

It appears he longer is -

http://www.apta.com.au/Home.aspx?Group=32

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Re: Blue Owl's Stamps. Does these look to be re-perforated?

Post by GlenStephens »

I am on holiday in Argentina now and do not have the time to spend looking too much into this.

However given how bodgy the examples above appeared I took 5 minutes to look at other expensive Roos on the Blue Owl's Stamp website.

https://blueowlsstamps.com.au/rhome1d.asp

I was appalled. All the items below are very obviously re-perforated, and not mentioned as such.

Indeed there were countless other examples I saw and I do not have all day of my time to waste saving images.

It appears THE most inept re-perforater on earth has been doing these and they would not fool even the dumbest ebay bunnies is my guess. (Well let's change that - clearly he fools some experienced collectors it seems.)
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Blue Owl's Stamps. Does these look to be re-perforated?

Post by Global Administrator »

My good friend and stamp expert the late Simon Dunkerley would turn in his grave to see an APTA member cheerfully offering such material at high prices I'd suggest.

Simon was an APTA President, and moderator here, and if he were still with us would be agreeing with my assessment I suggest, and being even more vocal than me. :twisted:

Indeed given the appalling fake 'Large OS' perfin in the above stamp sold on ebay by Blue Owl I took a lot at purchases made by the logonbid account stated to be his co-business owner and wife it seems - who it is stated above, also to be shill bidding under that handle on BlueOwl ebay lots.
ImageImage
This 2/- Roo was bought May 15 by that logonbid account for $A69 -

https://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190531046724

The feedback for logonbid clearly shows she was the buyer -

https://feedback.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&f ... =10&page=6

It is my firm initial view that stamp has had a crude and fake large "OS" perfin added, and has been crudely re-perforated along top and at left. Not readily apparent to those who have not had my 30 years experience possibly, but my instincts are very good.

It was sold by Blue Owl's Stamps for $A325, described as -

"Very Fine and fresh. No hidden faults. Dealer Retail $850"

So Jude, a clear fake perfin and re-perfed 2 sides are not 'faults' ??????????????

https://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260805734424

The lower row of perfs are original, and they match IMHO on both copies. The watermark line running through the lower part of the stamp also matches.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1913-Australia-2s-Kangaroo-Large- ... 3cb93bb018

The genius buyer of this faked GARBAGE was - bryanpayne55

https://myworld.ebay.com.au/bryanpayne55

Who at the same time also bought this obviously re-perfed 2/- Maroon from Blue Owl Stamps - for $230.50

Memo to Blue Owl or your re-perfer - you do NOT need to add an extra hole here. Pandadog can't see where you did it on the 5/- above, but trust me the rest of us probably can detect the fiddling.
Image
https://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260805195323

It was described as -

"Difficult to find like this"

I have to agree Jude .. unless they come from you it would indeed be difficult to find another like this!

As posted I am on vacation overseas but I suspect for those who have the time, looking at logonbid purchases and checking them on the Blue Owl website before the are taken down as they likely will be - or as past ebay sales by Blue Owl will yield similar matches.

Pop up any images you feel might be of interest for a second look.

A very sad day for stamps, to see this kind of thing under our nose. :evil:

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Re: Does this look like a re-perforated stamp?

Post by The Pom »

pandadog28 wrote:Quite frankly Scott, i reckon you are full of , well you know what.

I agree one of the 2/ does look to be reperfed on the base , but the rest are fine, especially those from the base of the sheet.

You need to do more homework before you start slagging names around and especially those of a very well respected dealer here in melbourne and a personal friend of mine.

Not quite sure while the moderators of this board have let this happen so unashmadely.
I wonder if pandadog28 would care to follow up on these comments he made earlier in this thread?
Always on the lookout for Australian pre decimal First Day Covers.

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Re: Blue Owl's Stamps. Do these look to be re-perforated?

Post by dukeprince »

Sad posts , all I can add is sometimes the pressure of debt or other problems can turn a good person to lower his standards, but if greed is the motivator then sympathy ends quickly.

Find any or a few cheap Roos that are un fiddled with and put them along side any in doubt , move then around match perf to perf etc, they will talk to you immediately, and you will wonder why you never tried it before.

Note, there are a few Roos that are taller and have a blind perf at bottom sides, I think from the bottom of the sheet , they should be catalogued and noted but they are not, so watch out for them I call them Tall Roos.

Can anyone comment on tall Roos please and clarify why they are not in the catalogue.

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Re: Blue Owl's Stamps. Do these look to be re-perforated?

Post by The Pom »

"Tall Roos" are the side effect of minor skips of the comb during the perforation process, and can occur anywhere, not just at the base of the sheet. They are random in their occurance & degree, so do not merit a catalogue listing.
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Re: Blue Owl's Stamps. Do these look to be re-perforated?

Post by phrag99 »

This is appalling, terrible. This is theft on a large scale.

Has anyone thought to notify the perpetrator that he has been sussed?

Has anyone thought to notify the police?

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Re: Blue Owl's Stamps. Do these look to be re-perforated?

Post by wolseley16/60 »

I wonder how many other poor unfortunates have financially suffered because of this dealer's dishonesty ???

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Re: Blue Owl's Stamps. Do these look to be re-perforated?

Post by SMSSLT »

Having been burnt a couple of years ago by some unscrupulous eBay sellers, some of whom are often mentioned on this board, I turned to APTA members such as Jude for advice and guidance and purchased a fair bit from him.

Whilst I haven't yet seen his response, frankly I'm devastated. Just who do you trust....

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Re: Blue Owl's Stamps. Do these look to be re-perforated?

Post by doc »

Looks like Jude Koch's Blue Owl Stamps broke most of the APTA written rules in just the examples above?

Thanks to members Starling and Woodster and The Pom for raising these items here using real examples of what was going on.

If his duplicate ebay account is buying Roo stamps non OS on ebay, and faking the OS perfin, and also re-perforating it - making $100s of profit in the process, and mentioning neither when sold on ebay, it is a VERY sad day for the collector.

The well established dealers who are careful when describing material will be furious I can bet, as it means the "Buy with confidence from an APTA member" ads means absolutely nothing, whilst members like this are still among them.

http://www.apta.com.au/Home.aspx?Group=7

APTA - Code of Ethics

As a member of the Australasian Philatelic Traders' Association Inc., I hereby pledge to observe the following code of ethics.

* I will promote, develop and maintain a high standard of ethics in all my business dealings.

* I will, by deed and example, endeavour to promote mutual trust and friendship between members and the public.

* I will refrain from dealing in stolen philatelic and counterfeit material, and give buyers of repaired, regummed, reperforated, reprinted or otherwise altered philatelic material a complete written statement showing in detail the nature of the changes and alterations in such material.

* I will avoid misrepresentation and misleading advertising.

* I will conduct myself so as not to bring discredit to the Association or to diminish the prestige of the membership therein.

* I will neither buy nor sell philatelic items of which the ownership is in doubt and will promptly report to the proper law enforcement authorities information on the suspect stolen material.

* I will immediately refund on any item sold by me where the description was either inaccurate or misleading, within a reasonable period of time after the transaction.

* I will support and be subject to the constitution and regulations of the APTA and such amendments, resolutions and policies as may be established

* In the event of any dispute arising between a customer and myself or with any other member of the Association, I agree to abide by any ruling in connection with such dispute as shall be given by the National Committee for the time being of the Association.

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Re: Blue Owl's Stamps. Do these look to be re-perforated?

Post by bsward »

Was wondering; does anyone know the legality of forging perforations then selling, in Australia? Seems like misrepresenting goods and maybe even counterfeiting...

Ben

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Re: Blue Owl's Stamps. Do these look to be re-perforated?

Post by starling »

I must admit that this whole episode has shaken me a bit. The immediate response in the early days was perhaps just. How could a major dealer be accused of such things? A high level of scrutiny was the right thing to do. I was meddling in someone's livelihood.

But my small inquiry in the first post about a possible re-perf. was like turning the kitchen light on and seeing cockroaches dart everywhere. Others shone torches into dark places and it just got worse! Selling a re-perforated stamp became shill bidding became selling multiple re-perforated stamps became actually creating reperforated stamps and OS perfins.

The main credit has to go to The Pom and Glen for putting in a great effort and actually drawing together before-and-after photos, and thanks also to the support from various members, especially in the early stages.

I was beginning to become convinced that I couldn't pick re-perfs anymore because I was seeing them everywhere in his listings :!:

Ebay still haven't de-registered him or his wife, I'm beginning to think they won't. That has greatly disappointed me.

I contacted the buyer of the 5/- 'Roo in the first post and he is in the process of getting his money back. He is a self-described enthusiastic amateur.

We all place a certain level of trust in dealers, even if they are operating through Ebay. We trust that they won't take us for a ride even if we are amateurs.

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Re: Blue Owl's Stamps. Does these look to be re-perforated?

Post by fromdownunder »

Global Administrator wrote:Indeed given the appalling fake 'Large OS' perfin in the above stamp sold on ebay by Blue Owl I took a lot at purchases made by the logonbid account stated to be his co-business owner and wife it seems - who it is stated above, also to be shill bidding under that handle on BlueOwl ebay lots.
ImageImage
This 2/- Roo was bought May 15 by that logonbid account for $A69 -

https://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190531046724

The feedback for logonbid clearly shows she was the buyer -

https://feedback.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&f ... =10&page=6

It is my firm initial view that stamp has had a crude and fake large "OS" perfin added, and has been crudely re-perforated along top and at left. Not readily apparent to those who have not had my 30 years experience possibly, but my instincts are very good.

It was sold by Blue Owl's Stamps for $A325, described as -

"Very Fine and fresh. No hidden faults. Dealer Retail $850"

So Jude, a clear fake perfin and re-perfed 2 sides are not 'faults' ??????????????

https://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260805734424

The lower row of perfs are original, and they match IMHO on both copies. The watermark line running through the lower part of the stamp also matches.
As somebody who was sceptical of the claims against Blueowl initially (and said so privately to Glen and the Mod Squad). I spent about 45 minutes studying the item posted by Glen above, and carefully checking each and every perforation, and other identifiable variations.

I can now only agree that the south and east side perforations are identical on the original non Large OS stamp to the one which has somehow turned into a large OS. There cannot be two 2/- 'Roos with absolutely identical perfortaions which metaporphose into an entirely different stamp.

I need say no more. Nor will I.

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Re: Blue Owl's Stamps. Do these look to be re-perforated?

Post by starling »

Just wondering what the best way would be to bring this to the attention of the APTA? I guess having some APTA members read this thread (if they haven't already) would be a good start.

I haven't reported this to them yet. Has anyone here done so?

We still don't have blueowl2000's side of events yet. A balanced and thorough investigation would need input from him.


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Re: Blue Owl's Stamps. Do these look to be re-perforated?

Post by Allanswood »

If this is true, then it should be directly referred to the police fraud squad as that is what this would clearly be.

It's not just selling dodgy reperfs to enhance a stamp anymore but becomes a case of deliberate fabrication to turn an average stamp into a rare one and sell it by deceipt to a customer. To do so once is bad, to do so on numerous occaisions is criminal.

I can understand a dodgy backyard seller trying this on, but a registered, trading business would be investigated and if found to be true, his APTA membership would be the least of his worries as every customer then sues for damages, his eBay accounts closed, his business ruined and forced to wind up and a criminal record in the future.

It beggars belief that in this day and age and with the vigilance of numerous eBay and other site "watchdogs" such as or board here, that anyone would still be trying this!

But this is all an "if". It may have nothing to do with the actual person being named.

So I would suggest pulling back a little, hand it over to the police and APTA and watch and see.

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Re: Blue Owl's Stamps. Do these look to be re-perforated?

Post by worldstamps »

Allanswood wrote:
But this is all an "if". It may have nothing to do with the actual person being named.
Blue Owl bought a 2/- Roo via ebay for $69 on May 15, and Blue Owl soon sold the same stamp on ebay with an added forged OS perfin and also reperfed, June 28 for $325. Neither alteration/forgery were mentioned to bidders.

Do you see any "ifs" in that scenario? Perhaps the household cat is the culprit?

This is just one specific example that has been highlighted - there are doubtless others, if members look into sales/purchases of these accounts that ebay themselves agree are linked, and that members above point out have the identical postal address.

There are as shown above, numeorus stamps offered for very big money on Blue Owl website that are crudely re-perforated, offered as "superb" etc.

That dealer has been a member here for over 3 years the member data publicly shows - surely if there was an explanation they'd have made it here?

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Re: Blue Owl's Stamps. Do these look to be re-perforated?

Post by Allanswood »

"Do you see any "ifs" in that scenario? Perhaps the household cat is the culprit? "

To be quite frank, yes I do. I don't appreciate the backhanded joke about the family cat.

What convinces you that the only possible person responsible is the APTA member?

Does he work alone and have no one else involved with his business? Does he load up all his own images and sales items? Is he personally responsible to classify and view every stamp he ever sells?

Would you know that for sure?

I don't know - thus my "if" and the need to type with care before hanging someone.

Try reading what I said again, I'm not on his side. But I'm not weilding a shovel to dig his grave either.

Or don't you believe "innocent until proven guilty?"
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Re: Blue Owl's Stamps. Do these look to be re-perforated?

Post by GlenStephens »

Allanswood wrote:Does he work alone and have no one else involved with his business?
Greg I am in South America now, and only get brief web access daily. This thread was well underway before I even saw it.

Re your query, can't check with anyone in oz on this, but as far as I know Blue Owl's Stamps is a small husband and wife operation working from home - much like I do.

If the 2/- Kangaroo was bought by them non 'OS', and sold by them weeks later as perfinned 'OS' it seems an open and shut case to me, I'd have to say.

The words 'Prima Facie Evidence' come to mind for some reason. :idea:

I have a strong feeling this discussion will run to MANY pages, and many 100s of posts.

Glen

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