"Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

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Re: Salvage questions. The foxed and toned.

Post by pickwickian »

I feel for you jivie, having had similar, though nowhere near as extreme cases. I am currently having another run through my “inherited” collection and discarding anything with even the smallest rust spit on the back or on one perf.

This is because both times I have asked about this issue I am told that rust is more infectious than coronavirus, and a spit anywhere in an album will destroy the album. Conversely I have seen other opinions that rust spores are everywhere in the air so you might as well resign yourself.

And, thirdly, I have seen other suggestions that a little bit of rust never hurt anyone, and if the stamp concerned is put into a good quality album under good climatic conditions it won’t get any worse.

And finally there is the problem of acidic paper in Chinese albums (and all of my late mother’s collection was in such albums) and what damage it does to stamps. Your album raises all those issues for me once again.

Has anyone actually experimented on these aspects of stamp damage, as distinct from anecdotes and opinions?
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Re: Salvage questions. The foxed and toned.

Post by Global Admin »

pickwickian wrote:I have seen other suggestions that a little bit of rust never hurt anyone, and if the stamp concerned is put into a good quality album under good climatic conditions it won’t get any worse.
And I've seen recent suggestions that injecting yourself with Bleach instantly cures Corona Virus. :idea:

Any idiot can make stupid statements - only bigger idiots believe them!

To REPEAT, rust and foxing on stamps is a LIVING cancer, and gets worse each year. Even if stored in Antarctica! Believe your un-named genius ''advisor'' that it does not, at your total peril.

Glen
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Re: Salvage questions. The foxed and toned.

Post by Global Admin »

jivie798 wrote:
Image

Image

These are some from the 1956 state definitives. Some badly foxed, toned and torn. Heck, even pen cancelled.
These are worth 10c the lot even in PERFECT shape. Toss them all in the nearest bin.

EVERY other perfect stamp stored anywhere near these will get infected. :idea:
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Re: Rust and Foxing stamps....how to store them...?

Post by Global Admin »

Lots of collectors listen to wacky stuff muttered at stamp clubs etc. Fletches1 has been a dealer for many decades.

He has over 70,000 stamp lots listed up in weak $A, on http://stampmall.com.au (''25% OFF'' COVID sale going on right now I notice!) and unlike casual collectors, KNOWS about bad storage and the damage it causes.

As like all experienced dealers, he sees the damage AFTER it has occurred. Stamp dealers are like doctors - we see potentially fatal things when it is often far too late to do anything.

Savvy collectors pay attention to real world advice from those in the front line. :idea:

Glen
fletches1 wrote:
GlenStephens wrote:Foxing/rust is a living mould growth and is air borne via spores.

If you MUST keep mouldy stamps, do so in another room to the good ones, or others will be infected soon enough.

And soon your few ratty blocks will be a few 100 ratty blocks. :idea:
This is one of the few times Glen does not go far enough in his explanation!!

Don't keep them in the same house, regardless. Rust infects.

Do not use the cheap Chinese Heavy "Flying Eagle" Brand Stockbooks, they will make things worse.

And NEVER store an album lying FLAT.

A sad story...


I just purchased a Czechoslovakian Collection, complete MUH from beginning to mid 1980's, including all the rare colour shades & Perfs , plus all the Mini Sheets.

Catalogue value, over 15,000 Euros, plus a premium for MUH.

I paid $600 AUD.

Why??

Because the owner had stored the collection lying flat and turned all his beautifully displayed & mounted MUH stamps into, Mint with gum inclusions.

At Least a $15,000 dollar loss to him, all because he did not use a little bit of sense.

Stamps need to have air circulated over them on a regular basis. Look at your collection as often as you can, check that the stamps are not adhering to the page.

And NEVER keep foxed /Rusted/Toned stamps, anywhere near any others.

Life is too short ......

We have a responsibility to the next Generation to protect these fragile pieces of History.
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them

Post by pickwickian »

Some questions.

1. What effect does the acidic paper of Chinese albums have on stamps? How long does it take? How does it differ in appearance from rust? Does it continue to develop in a new album?

2. If an album page has one stamp with rust does it spread to others on the page? How, exactly?

3. If a page or pages in an old album have a number or all stamps that are rusty, is this because it has spread or because the album was exposed to high humidity at some stage? How do you know?

4. If rust spores are in the air all the time, why don’t more stamps develop rust?

5. Most if not all vintage books, say from the nineteenth century, have “foxing” or rust on some or many pages. Book sellers simply note this as part of the description. Does it spread from these books to our whole library? If not why not?

6. In Glen’s advert for AAT FDC 22 Feb 2018 he notes “Some ageing among it”. What exactly is “ageing”? How does it differ from rust? Are the brown marks on some of those envelopes rust or ageing?

7. In Glen’s advert for a Kabe stockbook 18 Apr 2020 he notes “Condition varies as much of it is 150 years old type era”. What does this mean - what aspects of the condition varies?

8. I have been told by a professional dealer that rust is not of great concern. A major member of stampboards told me that rust spires are everywhere and will get on to any stamps in the right conditions of humidity but if the albums are kept in good conditions the rust will not spread. Now, I don’t know if they are right or not, but neither is the kind of person who would drink bleach.
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them

Post by Global Admin »

pickwickian wrote:
8. I have been told by a professional dealer that rust is not of great concern.
He is NOT a ''professional'' anything. He is a dangerous blithering IDIOT. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Name this alleged professional here for all to see please.

Tell us what professional Trade Bodies he is allegedly a member of. So that everyone except you, can keep clear of this nutter. And I can make the first moves to get him expelled for incompetence.

You will not do that of course I am predicting, as he does not exist, is the obvious conclusion to be drawn from that.

You clearly read or accept nothing from folks who DO sell stamp for a living, so cut off the perfs, use Texta pen all over your stamps, wash the gum off MUH stamps, or whatever other ''sage'' advise he gives. They are your stamps, and be as foolish as you wish with them. :idea:

In the MEANTIME, in the REAL world, aside from your alleged EXPERT, Rust is a living cancer on stamps. I repeat the actual advice, for those members, who DO pay attention to things, other than the un-named and doubtless non-existent GUNDAROO STAMP CLUB leading and alleged stamp ''EXPERT'' (sic) you keep quoiting -
Global Administrator wrote:
pickwickian wrote:I have seen other suggestions that a little bit of rust never hurt anyone, and if the stamp concerned is put into a good quality album under good climatic conditions it won’t get any worse.
And I've seen recent suggestions that injecting yourself with Bleach instantly cures Corona Virus. :idea:

Any idiot can make stupid statements - only bigger idiots believe them!

To REPEAT, rust and foxing on stamps is a LIVING cancer, and gets worse each year. Even if stored in Antarctica! Believe your un-named genius ''advisor'' that it does not, at your total peril.

Glen
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them

Post by pickwickian »

Once again, no answer to my questions.
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them

Post by Global Admin »

Yes your questions were answered - you just do not care to read the answers - it is like talking to my cat.

So you invent a clearly non existent ''professional expert'' who allegedly claims foxing is perfect for stamps. You deserve each other. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just do not mail your disintegrating stamps to me to buy please. Your ''Expert'' will LOVE them. :idea:
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them

Post by alltorque »

I am sure I asked this question as well......to start this thread.....:)

Isolate the culprits is the best advice....

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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by rory462 »

Very interesting and ... dare I say it -confusing? I have a more specialised question. I have lots of Victorian era Fiji stamps and very few have gum.

I asked a friend about this and he said many collectors and dealers of this type pre-emptively removed the gum because off ... you guessed it -toning, foxing or gum wrinkles.

Given the climate there I could (sort of ) understand but... I have 2 questions.

1/. Does this hold up in the view of all the experts out there?

2/. Is there a premium on stamps with gum without the above problems?
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Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

gavin-h wrote: 27 Oct 2007 03:33

Rust = a red-brown fungal infection of the paper in spots

Toning = a general yellowing/browning of the paper due to ageing or exposure to light

While mounting my used stamps into the album I noticed one of the set toned, this was an overall light brown on both sides, but more noticeable on the back. A 10 min. soak in household ammonia then a 10 min. rinse in cold water removed most of the toning.

Is rust spots also called foxing? To remove those I use Linder ERNI A & B solutions, it is the very rare stamp that needs another treatment after a 3 min soak in each one then a cool water rinse.

I put the stamps that show rust spots to the side until I have 10 or so, then I do them one at a time, moving from solution to solution every three mins until the batch is done, I try to keep as much sol A out of the B as possible, trying to keep sol B as potent as I can. Different tongs for each solution, letting the sol A drain from the stamp before dropping it into the sol B.

It even removes any toning if present along with the rust spots. I love playing Mad Chemist! :x
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Post by Rigs »

It would be good if you could post some before and after pics of your process?
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Chkpoint Charlie wrote: 19 Jun 2020 11:46 I love playing Mad Chemist! :x
Apparently.

A dealer once showed me that same stuff and dipped an 6d Violet Tasmania imperf Chalon into it.

It was a bit aged but not too bad. Worth maybe $100 as it stood.

In the end, there was a near white piece of totally worthless paper. Clever Chemist.

I never bought it, but that is just me I guess.

Another dealer i mentioned it too said that the visual effect wears off after a while anyway, and the stamp looks similar in a few years. No idea. And no way can any dealer use something that does that.
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Re: Re:

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

Global Administrator wrote: 19 Jun 2020 18:06
Chkpoint Charlie wrote: 19 Jun 2020 11:46 I love playing Mad Chemist! :x
Apparently.

A dealer once showed me that same stuff and dipped an 6d Violet Tasmania imperf Chalon into it.

It was a bit aged but not too bad. Worth maybe $100 as it stood.

In the end, there was a near white piece of totally worthless paper. Clever Chemist.

I never bought it, but that is just me I guess.

Another dealer i mentioned it too said that the visual effect wears off after a while anyway, and the stamp looks similar in a few years. No idea. And no way can any dealer use something that does that.
Here are two stamps I used ERNI on about three years ago
sweden #15 &16 fronts.jpg
sweden #15 &16 backs.jpg
There is no evidence of reverting back to their original toned state and the colors look fine.

But it has only been 36 months, I will keep an I on them to see how they age.

Would I give them a ammonia bath, NO, the ERNI treatment is much milder in my experience.
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

I hope nobody minds this, it's DEMO TIME!
getting things ready
getting things ready
setting everything up
setting everything up
The far right cup just has cool water in it.
using as little of the solutions as possible
using as little of the solutions as possible
the assembly line in progress
the assembly line in progress
I just move the stamps left to right every three min.

I take care not to have the tongs I use for solution A touch any solution B!

Once the stamps are dried and flattened I will post a before and after on each of these five guys.

Got to learn to focus my cheap little camera better! :?
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Rigs »

That is interesting.

I guess the next step is to compare same issue stamps that have been through cleansing to those that haven’t, to compare any effects on colours or postmark?
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by srgboy »

OK So just want advice from more experienced people,

How do I go about storing a stamp collection to maintain good condition in the tropical region? Let's say temp average 30 deg C and air humidity 85-90% - typical.

Setting certain ground assumptions such as, no more than 8-10 hrs per day of air conditioning. Definitely no plan to put it under air conditioning 24 hours a day.

What I do now at most is trying to keep them (i.e. hagners and stock books) in plastic boxes and put some dehumidifier gels. Somehow that method doesn't work for my old books though. Not sure what will happen to the stamps say in 7-10 years with using this method.
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

Now for SHOW & TELL

Before & After
Before & After
Before & After
Before & After
1907 KEVII gray green
The ink color has not changed, the slight toning is gone, white paper looks natural. Results: very good.



Before & After
Before & After
Before & After
Before & After
1927 King Fuad Orange
Color looks good, slight toning improved, stamp appears normal. Results: very good
Before & After
Before & After
Before & After
Before & After
1921 Postage Due Green,
Color is slightly lighter, rust spots reduced in size, paper is whiter. Results: Needs 2nd treatment for rust spots.



Before & After
Before & After
Before & After
Before & After
1875 20p Ultramarine
Color is washed out, toning is gone, paper is white. Results: Very poor, stamp is ruined!




Before & After
Before & After
Before & After
Before & After
1841 QV 2p Blue
Color is lighter, toning is removed, Bluish paper is lighter. Results: acceptable, does not appear un-naturally too white.


This is the first time that I ever ruined a stamp using this treatment! Also the first time I critically observed the results before and after.

At the recommended immersion time of three minutes, I see some lightening of the ink color on more stamps then I care for. Also on some stamps the paper is a little too white, does not look it's age.

So, from now on I am cutting the immersion time, the full 3 min. for Solution A, and 1 1/2 min. for Solution B.
I feel that B is causing the problems, it acts like a bleach or an acid, reducing the exposure to this agent should improve the outcome.

Learn from other people's mistakes. :shock:
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Global Admin »

Chkpoint Charlie wrote: 24 Jun 2020 09:57

ImageImage

1875 20p Ultramarine
Color is washed out, toning is gone, paper is white. Results: Very poor, stamp is ruined!

Learn from other people's mistakes. :shock:

Exactly as I posted above - a genius stamp dealer showed me how to ruin a $100 6d Violet Tasmania Chalon in a few minutes in front of my eyes using this potion. Oddly I do not need to be shown twice, but I just was.

Many color inks will vanish in these Witch Doctor brews. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Your Austra stamp did not have "TONING" .. it was how they all look after 150 years.

The GB 2d blue imperf looks absurd to me. It is a 180-year-old stamp. A Blind Nun can now see it has had the bejeezus bleached out of it - and then some. No serious collector would touch it now. There are many SG listed original shades on this stamp - you have totally destroyed the original.

It was not ''toning'' - just a little original gum residue mostly, and a bit of natural gook and dustiness usual from 180 years - a bath in HOT water would have done very admirably in this case, and not forever ruined the stamp. It once had an "IVORY HEAD" - you have breached that away totally.

You say it "does not appear un-naturally too white." ( :ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek: ) We are all entitled to our view of course. You have also totally bleached away all the natural paper blueing. It is not ''lighter'' as you state - it is GONE forever. Congratulations. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

It just had very light natural aging - a quick dip in hot water would have had it looking far better, and at least NATURAL, with the usual age patina of something 180 years old .. not looking like it just went through a car wash 4 times, and was then dipped madly into a cup of Chlorox. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Chkpoint Charlie wrote: 24 Jun 2020 09:57
Image
1841 QV 2p Blue
Color is lighter, toning is removed, Bluish paper is lighter. Results: acceptable, does not appear un-naturally too white.

I sell coins as well as stamps. Coin collectors are FAR smarter - they are all told from DAY #1 to NEVER, EVER, EVER clean coins, and they all accept this wisely. Globally. PATINA is essential on older coins. Scrub that off with steel wool and Brasso etc, and you have forever ruined that coin, AND its value - ask any numismatist. You just did that with a 180 year old stamp, and seem very proud of your efforts. :idea:

Let me give some free advice as a full-time stamp dealer for over 40 years, and a Life Member of the ASDA in New York. For those who care to read advice. (Sadly there are lots of mad chemists out there who seldom do!) I've seen it all. Every amateur treatment ever thought of, has been through my hands. Many I wince at seeing.

If I am shown any collection where some mad scientist collector has cheerfully chemically bleached the living daylights out of most better stamps, I will generally refuse to buy it, as how am I going to sell a vast number of antique stamps that I need sunglasses to look at - and clients will naturally assume I am the dope who did all this vandalism!

OR, I offer a pittance for the mostly ruined stamps - likely far less than if they had NOT been bleached and messed with. Sell the forever ruined mess as is "bought from a vandal - sold cheap as it is now mostly ruined" and retain anything not totally destroyed.

Just my 2c .. but what would experienced dealers know about the condition of stamps. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anyway, thanks for showing folks how to largely mess up a stock-card of stamps - pleez we do not want a blow by blow accounts of Round 2. :!:

Glen
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

Just trying what's out there, I knew about the coins, now I know about the stamps, do no harm!

No round two, no more blow by blow for newbies. I will just trade my stamps with others and call it a day.
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Global Admin »

Chkpoint Charlie wrote: 24 Jun 2020 13:05 Just trying what's out there, I knew about the coins, now I know about the stamps!

As I said, EVERY coin collector on the planet learns from Day#1, NEVER to clean coins in any way as it destroys their value, and it is NOT reversible. THEY all get it, and adhere to it. 8-)

So you knew that about coins, and possibly know a bit more now that advice generally applies to stamps too - for the same reason. That GB 1841 2d Imperf is a shocker. :!: :!: :!:

Glen

These are UNFIDDLED with USA Morgan Dollars. No steel wool, no scourer pads, no Silvo, no Chemicals, no magic Witch VooDoo Doctor solutions applied over the past 130 years. All are very high grade naturally age-toned coins,and all are highly desirable and high priced pieces, to folks who really know coins -


USA High-Grade Morgan Silver Dollars - all beautifully natural-toned to various degrees.  ALL expensive and uncleaned
USA High-Grade Morgan Silver Dollars - all beautifully natural-toned to various degrees. ALL expensive and uncleaned
.
No-one EVER cleans natural toning off coins - value drops HEAVILY if that is done.
No-one EVER cleans natural toning off coins - value drops HEAVILY if that is done.
-

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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Global Admin »

srgboy wrote: 23 Jun 2020 04:17 OK So just want advice from more experienced people,

How do I go about storing a stamp collection to maintain good condition in the tropical region? Let's say temp average 30 deg C and air humidity 85-90% - typical.

Setting certain ground assumptions such as, no more than 8-10 hrs per day of air conditioning. Definitely no plan to put it under air conditioning 24 hours a day.

What I do now at most is trying to keep them (i.e. hagners and stock books) in plastic boxes and put some dehumidifier gels. Somehow that method doesn't work for my old books though. Not sure what will happen to the stamps say in 7-10 years with using this method.

Equatorial Asia is a real storage issue.

Rule #1 - collect USED stamps only.

Mint or used is every collector's choice, and in that region buying only USED is a no brainer.

Rule #2 use SLIPCASES on absolutely all books, which mitigates the humidity ingress somewhat.

EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE should use slipcases -- just dust and gunk and grit in the moist air ruins the first row of stamps in every stockbook or Hagner - more on that here -


https://www.glenstephens.com/snaugust19.html


SLIPCASES on stamp albums are ESSENTIAL for every collector on the planet.
SLIPCASES on stamp albums are ESSENTIAL for every collector on the planet.
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by ikg »

Hello everyone,

I’ve read a lot about stamps rust/foxing on internet, and most posts from this thread. This thread seems to be the most “up-to-date”/active one.
It’s clearly a passionate and complex topic which mixes lots of things: biology (we are speaking of fungus), storage (humidity, temperature, stockbooks), stamp’s value (both emotional and $), visual aspect…

I believe Glen’s recommendations make sense in most cases, specially for dealers and when you buy new stamps.
However I would like to share my personal experience about this topic, as an hobbyist.

I’m collecting stamps for more than 10 year (I’m 30). I now “manage” the family’s collection, which is about 50 stockbooks (these are from Belgium, 70s, the trademark is “King”) of stamps all over the world, most of them are before 1950. There are no very high value stamps in this collection but few might worth ~50/100$ (some classical French stamps as example).

A large part of this collection is fine, however around 10/15% are affected by rust/foxing (from a very small spot to completely infected)… I do not know when it appeared, these spots are 10+ years old (at least, as far as I remember). I suspect the stockbooks was unfortunately not properly stored during 80s/90s (they was left untouched during this period :cry:), for example they didn’t have slipcases until I took care of them few years ago.
Note: Some stockbooks are completly "rust-free". Some have couple pages with infected stamps. Some pages have very few (one or two) infected stamps. Some pages have lots of foxing stamps (mostly stamps coming from tropical areas) and there are completely clean (at least, again, from visual aspect perspective) stamps between infected ones... Basically there is no clear spreading pattern, I even suspect some stamps was added in the collection already in this state back before 1970 (but this cannot be confirmed)
I’m very concerned about them, because on one hand I do not want to throw them away, because of the historical/emotional value (they have been in family for decades). On the other hand I cannot let them as-is in the collection.

One year ago, during research on the topic, I heard about the Lindner Erni A/B solution, and decided to give it a try on few low-value stamps. The result was more than OK to me (at least from the visual aspect perspective), so I’m now use it regularly (on contamined stamps only, which would basically go to the bin otherwise). However, like mentioned in a previous post, I also experienced catastrophic result with this solution. For example on French’s African colonies, some stamps finished completely blank… destroyed. Before use, I always do a try on a low-value stamp of the same family to make sure the paper/ink will not suffer a lot.

I do believe using this solution alters a stamp, in a way or another, but it feels as a compromise to me between the bin and restoration. One last thing, this is about the visual aspect only, and like mentioned before, the stamp is not (supposed) to be sanitized. So I keep them in HAWID-like mounts. The stockbooks now have slipcases and are stored in a 18-26°C/40-55% humidity room. I’m also replacing the old “King” stockbooks by new (fresh) ones (from Prophila/Leuchtturm).

I’ve pictures of the “restored” stockbooks, so I’m “monitoring” them regularly, to spot any spreading.
Let me know if you have any recommendation.

Here is a recent before/after result on my Switzerland ~1860-1880 stamps( :!: the picture weight 13Mo):

BPx84dk.jpg

Thanks,

Cyril
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

Hi Cyril,

Your results is on par with mine, I will now do a test on a couple of low value stamps from the same set before doing any higher catalog value ones. My pics showing before and after came out lighter then the actual color, but got the idea across, I have adjusted my cheap scanner a bit to try to correct this.

To try and restore some of the color, remember the ink is there, give the stamp a bath in salty water, I will be doing this to the stamps to see if they respond in a positive manner.

Gary
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Global Admin »

Chkpoint Charlie wrote: 30 Aug 2020 12:17
To try and restore some of the color, remember the ink is there, give the stamp a bath in salty water, I will be doing this to the stamps to see if they respond in a positive manner.

You amateur backyard witchdoctor chemists crack me up.

PLEASE do not use this board to offer totally crackpot advice.

Wreck your own stamps - you sadly do have that right, but do not encourage others. You agreed only a few posts back you'd learned your lesson about wrecking stamps. A very short memory for sure.

I shudder at how many perfectly OK stamps you lot destroy forever each year. :evil:

So let me follow this train wreck -

You use some spurious chemicals to try and ''clean up'' stamps, that instead wrecks them, and bleaches them near white.

So the brilliant response to rectify that vandalism, is to then wet them again, and douse them in SALT?

Please do not do any YouTube videos on this craziness, to destroy more stamps the gullible might follow. Meaning you not only wreck your own stamps, but those of many others too dumb to see how crazy it all is.

Do any of you realise paper is CELLULOSE. Ground up wood pulp fibres. That has something called "SIZE" added in the final mush, to get it flat and stiff.

EVERY time you immerse any stamp in ANY liquid, some or all of that SIZE gets lost, as does much surface sheen. You end up with noticeably limp blank paper squares, that are obviously fiddled with.

But THEN bleaching and chemically fiddling the daylights out of them, does that even more, and as you agree above, can remove the stamp colour near entirely as well in many cases. Darwin Award Winner stuff.

So the Genius 101 tactic is to do it all over again, submerging into SALTY WATER this time !????

And the Voodoo Logic is that will restore the colour you just wilfully bleached out with your witch doctor potions????

You just can't make this stuff up. :roll:

Worked on any ''sure fire'' ways to make gold bullion bars from empty Pepsi bottles? :lol: :lol: :lol:

A stamp with original colour and a little aged and unfiddled with, is worth a LOT more than a sad white square of failed chemical voodoo.

See your own disaster vandalism below.

Admin

Chkpoint Charlie's Witch Doctor Stamp cleaning Work at its finest. A quite decent looking stamp ruined forever into a pathetic white square.  NOW he will dip in into SALT WATER.  Then perhaps Coors Beer?
Chkpoint Charlie's Witch Doctor Stamp cleaning Work at its finest. A quite decent looking stamp ruined forever into a pathetic white square. NOW he will dip in into SALT WATER. Then perhaps Coors Beer?
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by rory462 »

Would you mind expanding on the 'size' you mentioned? I've never heard of it and it sounds important.
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Global Admin »

rory462 wrote: 30 Aug 2020 19:39 Would you mind expanding on the 'size' you mentioned? I've never heard of it and it sounds important.

No google in the UK these days? :roll:

Sizing or size is a substance that is applied to, or incorporated into, other materials—especially papers and textiles—to act as a protective filler or glaze. Sizing is used in papermaking and textile manufacturing to change the absorption and wear characteristics of those materials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sizing
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Rigs »

rory462 wrote: 30 Aug 2020 19:39 Would you mind expanding on the 'size' you mentioned? I've never heard of it and it sounds important.
I think the sherriff is referring to the fact that once you soak a stamp, given the nature of paper, you have minutely altered its original dimension.

No matter how small.

Hence repeating with subsequent soaks, or soaks greater than a few minutes, alters the basic original size of the piece.

But I remain to be corrected. :)
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Global Admin »

.
Paper physical dimensions size might alter by a tiny fraction of a mm after any soaking. Impossible to measure it. :mrgreen:

As outlined clearly above SIZING is an additive to the stamp paper.

Every amateur alchemist witch-doctor who bleaches and fiddles and otherwise degrades stamp paper loses or decreases that sizing, with each mad hatter experiment. Do it several times, and you have a limp and sad and faded blotting paper quality, sad mush. :evil:

Their stamps - they can cut them into pieces if they choose or dip them into tar etc. Seems a shame though.

Glen
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Rigs »

Global Administrator wrote: 30 Aug 2020 20:10 .
Paper physical dimensions size might alter by a tiny fraction of a mm after any soaking. Impossible to measure it. :mrgreen:

As outlined clearly above SIZING is an additive to the stamp paper.

Every amateur alchemist witch-doctor who bleaches and fiddles and otherwise degrades stamp paper loses or decreases that sizing, with each mad hatter experiment. Do it several times, and you have a limp and sad and faded blotting paper quality, sad mush. :evil:

Their stamps - they can cut them into pieces if they choose or dip them into tar etc. Seems a shame though.

Glen

Totally agree - any fiddle apart from the initial soak of a stamp to remove it off piece amounts to Frankenstein-bizarre results, in principle anyway ...
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

Global Administrator wrote: 30 Aug 2020 14:20
Chkpoint Charlie wrote: 30 Aug 2020 12:17
To try and restore some of the color, remember the ink is there, give the stamp a bath in salty water, I will be doing this to the stamps to see if they respond in a positive manner.

You amateur backyard witchdoctor chemists crack me up.

PLEASE do not use this board to offer totally crackpot advice.

Wreck your own stamps - you sadly do have that right, but do not encourage others. You agreed only a few posts back you'd learned your lesson about wrecking stamps. A very short memory for sure.

I shudder at how many perfectly OK stamps you lot destroy forever each year. :evil:

So let me follow this train wreck -

You use some spurious chemicals to try and ''clean up'' stamps, that instead wrecks them, and bleaches them near white.

So the brilliant response to rectify that vandalism, is to then wet them again, and douse them in SALT?

Please do not do any YouTube videos on this craziness, to destroy more stamps the gullible might follow. Meaning you not only wreck your own stamps, but those of many others too dumb to see how crazy it all is.

Do any of you realise paper is CELLULOSE. Ground up wood pulp fibres. That has something called "SIZE" added in the final mush, to get it flat and stiff.

EVERY time you immerse any stamp in ANY liquid, some or all of that SIZE gets lost, as does much surface sheen. You end up with noticeably limp blank paper squares, that are obviously fiddled with.

But THEN bleaching and chemically fiddling the daylights out of them, does that even more, and as you agree above, can remove the stamp colour near entirely as well in many cases. Darwin Award Winner stuff.

So the Genius 101 tactic is to do it all over again, submerging into SALTY WATER this time !????

And the Voodoo Logic is that will restore the colour you just wilfully bleached out with your witch doctor potions????

You just can't make this stuff up. :roll:

Worked on any ''sure fire'' ways to make gold bullion bars from empty Pepsi bottles? :lol: :lol: :lol:

A stamp with original colour and a little aged and unfiddled with, is worth a LOT more than a sad white square of failed chemical voodoo.

See your own disaster vandalism below.

Admin

Image
I do not think a saltwater bath is a crackpot idea, just something to try and see the results. If it does not work or screws up the stamp please allow me to pass on my findings along to interested members and guests.

Alot of collectors abide by not doing anything to a stamp other then soaking it off the envelope. It is what it is, and that is all they want, a stamp or cover that no one wrote upon or changed in any way. That would be nice, I chose the stamps I had on hand to see for myself what effects would occur, I read your warning about the Ceylon stamp and seeing is believing. Now members can see what the risks are and proceed to make a decision.

The stamps I ruined fall under "never work scrap", this is how I learn, I am not out to cheat anybody, I just want to have a nice looking stamp in my album, if it is a little too white and does not look 180 years old, that is fine for me.
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Silhat »

Hello.

Just to add my piece on this discssion...

I am a chemist by formation, so, long long time ago I experimented those chemicals. I will not tell here which one they are (unless a moderator ask me too) as I don’t want some people to try, ruin their stamps AND put the blame on me.

The first one is used a an antifungal, the second is an acid used to neutralise the first one... So guess what : first bath in a basic solution (for those not famliar with that, you could say caustic soda diluted), second bath : weak acid... always a good idea when you think of the money spent to by ACID FREE stockbooks or paper sheets to store stamps.

Result ? Wonderful :twisted: foxing is gone, paper is whiter... fragilised and no one serious would ever believe that this stamp is genuine. Once again I tried it on stamps that were already doomed so I lost nothing

By the way, a simple inspection under UV light will shows the traces of the fungal attack.
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Global Admin »

.
Yes these armchair geniuses often cause a train load of destruction spouting hillybilly potions. :twisted:

There was a handbook written 50 years back that championed all kinds of Witches's Brews for stamps. Chkpoint Charlie trumpeted it here and I removed reference to it, to save others from this mad stuff.

At the same time farmers cheerfully used millions of gallons of airborne DDT on crops, the American and Australians dropped countless tons of Agent Orange defoliant on Vietnam, car seats belts were not compulsory, women cheerfully took Thalidomide during pregnancy, and asbestos sheeting was used near universally here to make house outers etc. And near all of them smoked 20 cigarettes a day.

Time moves on. :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:

Several of these Witch doctor stamp treatments are these days, proven carcinogenic agents, and on highly restricted sale.

I own this board, and have to duty of care to protect the many clueless non chemists from this voodoo science. It will not be appearing here. Post it here and YOU may not be appearing here! I do not fancy a $5 million legal action for damage these things might cause to some bumbling amateur who read nothing of the poison and chemical risks.

A bath in hot water is all most stamps need.

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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

If someone could prosecute a forum for mentioning a dangerous chemical procedure, those people who injected bleach into themselves would be sueing twitter left and right.

The real danger of adding stamps infected with mold and mildew is real, but I luckily have not come across it spreading in a collection. As a dealer you must come across all types of ruined collections on a daily basis. So a blanket statement of "only soaking stamps in warm water" is helpful overall to everyone.
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Rigs »

Chkpoint Charlie wrote: 11 Oct 2020 08:00

This forum has matured me as a collector, but I need to not become a stamp snob because of it.
.

Consider that it is better to be a stamp snob, than a philatelic vandal.

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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

Rigs wrote: 11 Oct 2020 08:57
Chkpoint Charlie wrote: 11 Oct 2020 08:00

This forum has matured me as a collector, but I need to not become a stamp snob because of it.
.

Consider that it is better to be a stamp snob, than a philatelic vandal.

.
Is it really vandalism to stop mold and mildew from spreading throughout my collection? What do you do when you find one of the stamps you just received and it has a bit of mildew on it, and it does fill that gap in the set?

You are making me out to be someone ruining every stamp and album I come across by dipping them in bleach and acid. There are many collectors who have ruined stamps inadvertently (wow, I spelled that correctly the first time!). We learned from our mistakes and the mistakes of others.

The next time you do something to a stamp other then a short warm water bath, think of me. ;)
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Rigs »

Chkpoint Charlie wrote: 11 Oct 2020 10:21
Is it really vandalism to stop mold and mildew from spreading throughout my collection? What do you do when you find one of the stamps you just received and it has a bit of mildew on it, and it does fill that gap in the set?

Everyone is entitled To their views I guess.

For me it’s vandalism to bleach a stamp, Making 180 yr old stamp look like it was printed yesterday, yet really just looking like a freak show.

Consider that it is a question of taste. I appreciate the journey a stamp has been on since it left the post office counter, and accept whatever condition it is.

Just a warm bath is enough.

Some of the most fascinating pieces I have are heavily cancelled, or damaged, or Are just plain dirty from being thrown around on a parcel, yet can still have a Certain unique appeal.

If it’s foxed don’t add it to your collection.
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Global Admin »

Chkpoint Charlie wrote: 11 Oct 2020 08:00

If someone could prosecute a forum for mentioning a dangerous chemical procedure, those people who injected bleach into themselves would be sueing twitter left and right.


Well when you run your own board, you are free to allow what you want. No matter how kooky or misinformed. :!:

I own this one, and believe I have a duty of care to others, (and to a lot of ruined stamps!) when some folks post 50-year-old Witch Doctor potions that are now known to be harmful to stamps, and indeed carcinogenic in one instance. Reference to them are deleted.

Do what you want personally with your own stamps. Freeze the stamps, microwave them, cook in an oven for 24 hours, soak them in coffee or Campari or olive oil, or hair restorer, or spray with car degreaser or sheep tick solutions or red roof paint etc.

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You may feel you are saving and rescuing your stamps as you proudly showed us below - your call entirely.

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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Global Admin »

Chkpoint Charlie wrote: 11 Oct 2020 08:00

The real danger of adding stamps infected with mold and mildew is real, but I luckily have not come across it spreading in a collection.

Well either the entire stamp collecting world needs to move to the truly unique and miraculous climate bubble that appears to exist in Chicopee, Massachusetts, USA, OR you simply are deluded, or need new glasses, or both. :)

Foxing on old paper is a LIVING and growing mould organism as we all accept - except in Chicopee, Massachusetts, USA
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by MJ's pet »

.
Chkpoint Charlie, here is a great *new* product for you. Recommended by some lady on TV!

Doesn't say it is recommended for stamps, but it works a treat on coins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO-kQtomjhQ



tarn off 1.jpg
TARN-OFF



tarn off 2.jpg
"and coin collectors will love the way Tarn-Off works on these coins"
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

Global Administrator wrote: 11 Oct 2020 15:17
Chkpoint Charlie wrote: 11 Oct 2020 08:00

The real danger of adding stamps infected with mold and mildew is real, but I luckily have not come across it spreading in a collection.

Well either the entire stamp collecting world needs to move to the truly unique and miraculous climate bubble that appears to exist in Chicopee, Massachusetts, USA, OR you simply are deluded, or need new glasses, or both. :)

Foxing on old paper is a LIVING and growing mould organism as we all accept - except in Chicopee, Massachusetts, USA
How do you read into my statement that I am denying the existence of this occurrence? I am just stating that I have been lucky not to have found it growing in any albums I had. I did just get a lot of used Berlin stamps where for the first time maybe a quarter of them had black mildew marks on them, never came across that before. That is what I meant.

I keep the Finland stamp, that you keep using as an example what will happen if you try anything other then a warm bath, right where I put the other stamps I want to treat. As a reminder to test on a damaged copy before using it on a stamp that I want to add to my collection.

By the way, a saltwater bath did not revive the color on the faded stamps I tried out! They are in the bin now.

The handful of old stamps I made look to new for there age, I am sure the paper will look it's age again in 50 years. My bad.

Again, this was all done to show what I do about rust & foxing to anyone interested. If I did the demo on damaged stamps all would be well.

I am sorry this has hit a sore spot with you, this really is a great forum and I don't want to upset anyone, least of all the person footing the bills.

Gary
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Global Admin »

Chkpoint Charlie wrote: 12 Oct 2020 01:00
By the way, a saltwater bath did not revive the color on the faded stamps I tried out! They are in the bin now.
`

No idea which Armchair Chemists' idea this, was but it certainly was not mine! But you seen to allude to that?

Immersing ANY dry stamps that have been already been bleached madly, and Voodoo Hillbilly treated with anything, back into more liquid, is insane.

Folks should read my comments above about ''SIZE'' in all stamp paper. EVERY immersion in any fluid loses more of that. Then, you end up with a limp, and looking artificially white glowing piece of blotting paper basically.

Dipping that into salty water, 7-Up, Moet, or Lourdes water etc, will NOT improve anything, but can ONLY worsen the original mess you created. :!:
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by ViccyVFU »

Chkpoint Charlie wrote: 30 Aug 2020 12:17To try and restore some of the color, remember the ink is there, give the stamp a bath in salty water, I will be doing this to the stamps to see if they respond in a positive manner.
Gary

It certainly wasn't the Sheriff that recommended this. It was just the physician "drinking their own medicine" from a 30th August post.

Salt doesn't restore colour.

I think some confusion arises from "advice for soaking stamps initially, that are stuck to coloured (usually red Christmas card) envelopes".

In that case, a teaspoon of salt in the (hand warm) mix can be used as a FIXATIVE for the red dye in the backing substrate, if you are QUICK, .....but its "one of those things that just usually lessens the staining, rather than being a total success".

BOILING WATER destroys "much of the GB early phosphors" (and some other countries), so again it's not really the "magic bullet" people seek.

Warm water, and short periods, seem best for "lessening the effect" of the spot staining, but do little for toning.
(And it's a complete killer, at all temperatures, for double fugitive inks).

If its valuable, seek out a professional paper conservator, who can often do "the more scientific stuff, in controlled conditions".

It really isn't "an experiment, for the kitchen table".
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Stapper »

Can I ask an advice from more experienced people.

My wife and I buy often lots with a few thousand stamps. Often from people who used to collect as kids or adolescents who are selling there collection after having dragged it behind them for several decades. A lot of those stamps have been ripped of the envelope, other has been soaked and then dried on some kitchen towel and are more looking like papier maché. Sometimes, we need to trow away everything due to foxing and mold (chips happen).
I wash a lot of those stamps (not the rotten) to get rid of the dirt of ages (pe, until the 50ies, houses where heated with coal and oil and gaslamps where used before WWI). If needed, I clean them with a bit of natural soap (one drop in the water) in hot water, rinse with lukewarm and then cold water. Finally, i let them soak for a minute in water with a bit of salt to fix the inkt to the paper (like alum - kalium aluminium phophor salt is used to fix dyes on textiles).
Now the question, is it good to use salt to fix the inkt or not ?
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by ViccyVFU »

Hi Stapper,

You have not pictured any stamps (which leaves "an enormous canvas to paint on"), but I can answer for GB stamps.

The only place I use salt is as a fixative "to reduce colour leeching from coloured envelopes", when soaking modern stamps.

It doesn't work very well (for me), but there is "a slight overall improvement" when compared to "non salt" soaking. I usually don't bother with deeply red envelopes anymore - "simply not worth the effort".


British stamps themselves do seem to fall into just two camps: Soluble (fugitive) inks, and non soluble.

For the fugitive inks, its the water that's a problem.
Salt does not stop them fading to "completely washed out".
For the non soluble ones "they have already been fixed properly", so no salt required.

Could you illustrate a couple where you think salt might help, so we can focus on that paper / ink combination?
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Stapper »

Hi ViccyVFU,

Thanks for the quick reply.

When I say that I ue some soap on stamps, it's for obliterated stamps from before WWI (Belgium, France, Netherlands, Germany, ...). Often, they have been kept in rooms where candle's and oil and gas lamps where used and which where heated with coal. Those stamps are dirty from the smoke.

Modern stamps (50' to today) which where soaked from envelops and not properly dried or loder stamps whith hinges who are not removable are washed with lukewarm water and then submerged in cold water with a bit of salt.

Can that harm the stamp ?

BTW, i will scan some of them one of the following days and publish them.
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by cman »

.
Hello,

I'm horrified to learn about foxing etc. I'm not sure how i missed this until recently. In your opinion, do these stamps looked foxed/rusted/toned? The stamp on the left is US 484 and stamp on the right is US 345.

If you zoom in on the back of 484 there are some tiny reddish brown spots. Also, a spot to the right and a slightly up on the face side.

I had to look at this stamp through my loupe to see it initially.

Thank you

Clint
481.jpg
.
example 2.jpg
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Global Admin »

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RH unit seems to be a stain or mark of some other kind.
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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Catweazle »



Thoughts on these?

Great covers but far from the best condition. Note those browning hues around the stamps – perhaps a nice hot bath for a start?

Is this the same mess seen throughout these threads? Is it the gum that was effected, and now that's been spreading further afield?

I'm wondering if I should start being real picky about future material, and leave such things behind. These were from a box lot (typical!) – other covers were fine but these not so.


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Re: "Rust" and Foxing etc on stamps. How best to store them?

Post by Stapper »

Catweazle wrote: 22 Jun 2021 01:32

Thoughts on these?

Great covers, but far from the best condition. Note those browning hues around the stamps – perhaps a nice hot bath for a start?

Is this the same mess seen throughout these threads? Is it the gum that was effected, and now that's been spreading further afield?

I'm wondering if I should start being real picky about future material, and leave such things behind. These were from a box lot (typical!) – other covers were fine but these not so.



Image

IMHO, If those stamps are not rare, I would throw them away - too much foxing/rust
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