Australia 1d KGV Heads - the EOSIN shades group discussion

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Australia 1d KGV Heads - the EOSIN shades group discussion

Post by starling »

The KGV 1d red is arguably one of Australia's most popular stamps for collectors around the world.

First issued in 1914 it was heavily used through to the early 1920's. Most of the printing coincided with The Great War (1914-1918) so many problems were encountered with supply of paper and printing ink.

The most enigmatic of the KGV 1d reds is from the printing that occurred around early 1917 and was distributed to post offices around the end of 1917, the Eosin shades.

Eosin is a magenta colourant that has a very strong fluorescence, especially brilliant when illuminated by invisible long-UV wavelengths (~ 365nm). Eosin is a derivative of fluorescein which is a fluorescent yellow-green, these synthetic dyes being discovered by the German chemist Adolf von Baeyer in the late 19th century.

On the left is a photo of the fluorescence (excitation at 365nm) of a deep salmon eosin shade that I have in my collection compared to a couple of other 1d red shades, on the right a normal scan.

Image

Image

The shades are:

top-left = G1 (carmine red, line perf.) - UV reaction brownish purple
top-right = G27 (deep salmon eosin) - UV reaction brilliant fluorescent yellow-orange
bottom-left = G66 (pink, rough paper) - UV reaction brilliant fluorescent orange-red
bottom-right = G75 (brownish red, rough paper) - UV reaction fluorescent bright red

The fluorescence is nowhere near as striking on mint examples. A paper brightener called ecsulin was used, this fluoresces a strong bluish-white and tends to mask the emission of the eosin shade.

Esculin is very soluble in water, so on used examples that have been soaked in water, the esculin diffuses away and allows the eosin to shine through. The reduced fluorescence is also a feature of eosins still on cover.

I am not fortunate enough to own a mint example or one on cover, so I can't testify to this.

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by starling »

Eosin itself is a weak colourant, appearing pale pink on paper, and has to be mixed with a stronger pigment to give a satisfactory colour. This is why there is no single Eosin shade in the 1d reds, there is a variety such as deep salmon eosin, deep pink salmon eosin, pink eosin etc. These would have come about from mixing with various amounts of the 'strong' colourant.

It is also highly probably that this wasn't the first time that eosin was used in inks for Australian stamps. Examining some pinkish stamps from the Colonies and also Australia reveals a very similar UV reaction.

Image

Image

The stamps are (from top-left):

Western Australia 1d rose-pink - SG Cat. # 139
Australia 1d KGV deep salmon eosin
Australia 10/- grey & pale aniline pink, 3rd watermark
New South Wales 1d salmon-red - SG Cat. # 301
Victoria 1d rose - SG Cat. # 385b
Victoria 1d rose-red - SG Cat. # 417

Certainly not all 'red' stamps from this era give a fluorescent reaction, and not even all printings from the one issue give this reaction either. The stamps above are certainly not an exhaustive list.

However, for those who want to get a feel for just how bright and distinctive the fluorescent reaction is, there are many common and cheap stamps that collectors would have easier access to.

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by starling »

The Salmon Eosin in its various shades is by no definition a rare stamp. Decent used examples generally sell for well over $1000 and that is despite the fact that Stanley Gibbons don't even catalogue the shade. There probably being at least ten times as many Eosins as there are ½d green KGV single watermark with line perforation. The ½d green KGV single watermark with line perforation is listed in Stanley Gibbons, but change hands at only a couple of hundred dollars each. And of course Stampboards has the excellent census of those here:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=17322

The legendary 'Italian Find' of the late 1990's had dozens of Eosins:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=2996

It was accepted wisdom until recently that the Salmon Eosins were only used in a few post-offices in the NSW Hunter Valley region and around Wagga Wagga. However, examples have been seen with cancellations from every state with the possible exception of Western Australia.

The one I have scanned above has a 1917 Narrabri cancel and on the Drury certificate that accompanies it is listed as 'Narrabri No. 3', likely meaning it is the third one from this post-office.

Please show us your eosins, and hopefully we can start to build up a census.


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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Micky »

I wish I knew more about shades, I must be colour blind all the reds look the same to me some darker then others. Would it be easier to buy a special light, I doubt if I have anything that looks like a Salmon Eosin.

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by starling »

For all of my shade determinations I use the following set up.

Image

An Ott light as a daylight light source, a Spectroline long wavelength UV lamp and a Spectroline viewing cabinet.

But only if you want to get really serious :shock:

The book The Redhead issued by the British Society of Australian Philately is also a must-have.


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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Micky »

That gadget looks too technical and expensive :lol: . I will stick to learning the basics first maybe in 20 years I will get one of those machines.


Thanks for your advice
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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Morgan »

Scott -

This is great information. Thanks.

-Morgan

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by starling »

Here are the three eosin 1d reds that I have.

Image
Image

The first one is the one I've used in the scans in the first few posts, certified as Deep Salmon Eosin. The second one with the machine cancel is certified as Salmon Eosin and the last one is a damaged and sun-faded Pale Pink Eosin. The last one despite being faded and in rough condition still shows the eosin glow under the long wavelength UV light.

Unfortunately, the first one is the only one with an identifiable cancel.

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by admin »

I've never understood how they are worth 3 figures, much less 4. 8)

There are 1000s of them out there for sure. (One person seems to own a large chunk of them!)

As Scott says they are not in SG but the ½d Green SLP *IS* - yet only gets a couple of $100 most times, used.

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by starling »

I must say I have looked through tens of thousands 1d reds over the years and have never found a single eosin :( I think they have all pretty much been found over the 90+ years since they were issued.

Probably the only ones lurking out there are in the undiscovered stashes that we all dream of :mrgreen:

Though I would like to hear of any that people have discovered (besides the Italian Find).

They seem to turn up regularly at various auctions, didn't realise someone was hoarding them though, must have deep pockets at $1000+ a pop :!:


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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by admin »

starling wrote:
.... didn't realise someone was hoarding them though, must have deep pockets at $1000+ a pop :!:
You name him above. :)

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Greg Ioannou »

admin wrote:
starling wrote:
.... didn't realise someone was hoarding them though, must have deep pockets at $1000+ a pop :!:
You name him above. :)
Drury? That makes sense. He's in the perfect position to know when new ones come to market and pick them off if they're at all purchasable. And he is helping develop the market by certifying them.

He's why they sell for four figures, of course. He provides a floor price, so that anyone else who wants one has to always outbid him.

Greg

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by mobbor »

I don't own an eosin, but I've seen some under the uv lamp.

For those who haven't, I must say the scans above- while they may show the shade don't in any way do them justice. Viewed under black-out conditions their fluorescence is simply amazing.
mobbor

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by starling »

Mobbor,

It took me many attempts to get the pictures that I did, but must agree that the camera hasn't captured the glow :(

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by mobbor »

Starling

The main reason I pointed to the fluorescence is so that people who haven't seen it won't get the wrong idea. There are many other shades, most aniline shades in fact, that have an orange reaction & some are quite bright.
mobbor

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by starling »

My main point in this thread is that there are several dirt-cheap Colonies issues that give a very similar UV reaction. Getting a mental picture of the glow is important, but getting your hands on an eosin is a big outlay.

The WA, Vic and NSW stamps shown above are readily available for cents each, and would be useful as a reference.

If anyone wants some of these cheap Colony issues so they can see the UV reaction for themselves, feel free to e-mail me, but you will need your own long wavelength UV lamp.


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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Micky »

Hi, I have a couple of light red or types of pink to show. The first one looks to have some of the die on the outside border but no pink colour on the back no idea why. Are they considered to be a variety of pink? I suppose I need to find a UV lamp to see it more.

Image

Cheers
Micky

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by mobbor »

Micky

Yes, you need a uv lamp. There are host of shades those 2 stamps could be, though with a Feb. 1915 date the 2nd nearly has to be G12 salmon-red. It looks a bit faded, which is common.

It is aniline & has quite a strong orange reaction, but nothing like eosin. G27 didn't appear before Nov. 1917.

How much aniline leeches onto the paper depends on the amount of aniline present & how carefully they are soaked. From the back at least the watermark usually looks pink.

Note that Starling's point here is that if you have a uv lamp & want to see what eosin looks like you don't have to spend 4 figures on a G27.
mobbor

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Clive »

Greg Ioannou wrote:
admin wrote:
starling wrote:
.... didn't realise someone was hoarding them though, must have deep pockets at $1000+ a pop :!:
You name him above. :)
Drury? That makes sense. He's in the perfect position to know when new ones come to market and pick them off if they're at all purchasable. And he is helping develop the market by certifying them.

He's why they sell for four figures, of course. He provides a floor price, so that anyone else who wants one has to always outbid him.
Greg
In 2010 Arthur Gray presented an exhibit of some of his treasures to the Tasmanian Philatelic Society. I can't now recall the precise number but Arthur showed a few pages of eosins. If my memory isn't completely shot, most, if not all, were mint.

Truly, Arthur's display that evening was like Aladdin's Cave, a philatelic Louvre.

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Micky »

Thanks mobber seems the lamp is worth the buy, I will put some money aside to purchase a uv lamp, it will come in handy for sure.

Micky

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Kaygeevee »

starling wrote:Here are the three eosin 1d reds that I have.

Image
Image

The first one is the one I've used in the scans in the first few posts, certified as Deep Salmon Eosin. The second one with the machine cancel is certified as Salmon Eosin and the last one is a damaged and sun-faded Pale Pink Eosin. The last one despite being faded and in rough condition still shows the eosin glow under the long wavelength UV light.

Unfortunately, the first one is the only one with an identifiable cancel.

Scott
Hi Scott,

re your Deep Salmon Eosin with the Narrabri (D)E 17 cancel.

It was like looking at an "old friend" I thought that I recognized it so I have just dug up some photo copies that I took when I visited Europe in 1999 and sure enough there it was.

Image

I can tell you that it was from the "Italian find" so it's only seen the light of day since 1999, it's a great stamp

Best regards David :)

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Kaygeevee »

starling wrote:The Salmon Eosin in its various shades is by no definition a rare stamp. Decent used examples generally sell for well over $1000 and that is despite the fact that Stanley Gibbons don't even catalogue the shade.

There probably being at least ten times as many Eosins as there are ½d green KGV single watermark with line perforation. The ½d green KGV single watermark with line perforation is listed in Stanley Gibbons, but change hands at only a couple of hundred dollars each. And of course Stampboards has the excellent census of those here:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=17322

The legendary 'Italian Find' of the late 1990's had dozens of Eosins:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=2996

Scott
Scott,
I would dispute that there are 10 times the number Eosins compared to the ½d Single Line Perf. (Admin says 1,000s to me this suggests at least 2,000 copies) I would think that the number of Drury certificates issued over the last 13+ years would be about 550 for the Eosins .

It has been suggested that a certain person is hoarding them, well if you do research on the Eosins you need quite a few copies, I can't agree that this is hoarding.

There are 4 shades of Eosin in the Blogg list, each of these has a Pale or Deep sub shade.

The gentleman also tries to collect the Eosin stamps showing the Towns where they were used, plus it's nice if you can obtain one showing a Major flaw, so you would end up with quite a few copies but you could not call that hoarding.

Eventually (when he retires) he intends to published all the information in a book.

re Prices: It is supply and demand.

I believe that there would be 10 (lets be Conservative) collectors of the KGV 1d Red for every collector of the KGV ½d Green. ie 10 collectors would like a ½d Single Line Perf. a 100 collectors would like a 1d Salmon Eosin +some would like one of each shade of Eosin.

When the 50+ Eosins were discovered in the Italian find it was said that the market could not absorb them, this was not the case, in fact the demand has increased.

I hope this will start to put the record straight.

Best regards David :)

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Kaygeevee »

Clive,

I'm afraid that your memory is "shot" :o , AG had some mint and five used that he displays.
But I agree that Arthur's displays are wonderful.

Best regards David :)

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Kaygeevee »

Scott,

I must congratulate you on being able to capture the UV reactions of the stamps, I have tried but without success, I would be most interested to know how you did it ie what settings you used and what type of camera.

Best regards David :)

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Clive »

David,

Just five or so was it? I would have sworn it was more.

That's what happens when your memory goes - the loaves and fishes syndrome :( .

Clive

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Kaygeevee »

Clive,
Five used + the MINT which would have been about the same when you saw them.
plus Lots of his other treasures that are mouth watering.

Best regards David :)

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by starling »

Kaygeevee,

Thank you for your input. My '10 times as many ' statement wasn't really based on hard facts, just anecdotal evidence from what I've heard and observing how often they pop up in auctions compared to the ½d single line perf. I picked the ½d single line perf. KGV as my benchmark because Stampboards has done such a great job at performing a census.

As for being able to capture the UV reactions, I think it is more my UV equipment than the camera that is the key. It is a pretty cheap digital camera, a Nikon Coolpix 14.0 megapixel with 5x zoom. I have to make it auto-focus a few times, flash off of course and then try and hold my hands steady enough as the exposure is maybe around a second or so, well I don't set that either, I use all automatic settings. I guess the beauty of a digital camera is that I can take dozens of shots and pick the best one, would have been impossible in the age of film :)

When my 1d red shades collection is complete - or near enough to - without the very rare shades like G78 orange-brown OS and the two rare Cooke printings LMW shades - G102 & G103, I'll take photos of all of the UV reactions and post them here on Stampboards.


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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by starling »

Kaygeevee,

Thanks also for giving me a bit of the history behind my 1d Eosin with the Narrabri cancel, nice to know it is from the Italian Find :) And yes, it is a great stamp, a really lovely colour.

I think I bought it from the German auction house Gärtner a few years back, not 100% sure, but I know either that one or the one with the machine cancel came from them.


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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by fossick »

starling wrote:Kaygeevee,

Thank you for your input. My '10 times as many ' statement wasn't really based on hard facts, just anecdotal evidence from what I've heard and observing how often they pop up in auctions compared to the ½d single line perf. I picked the ½d single line perf. KGV as my benchmark because Stampboards has done such a great job at performing a census.

As for being able to capture the UV reactions, I think it is more my UV equipment than the camera that is the key. It is a pretty cheap digital camera, a Nikon Coolpix 14.0 megapixel with 5x zoom. I have to make it auto-focus a few times, flash off of course and then try and hold my hands steady enough as the exposure is maybe around a second or so, well I don't set that either, I use all automatic settings. I guess the beauty of a digital camera is that I can take dozens of shots and pick the best one, would have been impossible in the age of film :)

When my 1d red shades collection is complete - or near enough to - without the very rare shades like G78 orange-brown OS and the two rare Cooke printings LMW shades - G102 & G103, I'll take photos of all of the UV reactions and post them here on Stampboards.


Scott
Hi Scott

I for one would love to hear about your uv equipment. What it is where you got it and approx cost, along with how you use it (settings)

Several years ago I purchased a bulk lot of 1d red and included in it was a stock book containing according to the notations all the shades except the pink/salmon eosins.

Try as I might I cannot get a good handle on uv shades so your research will probably be very useful to me as I have multiples of many including G78 ( I am amazed by the cat values of some of these).

Drury seems to be the best kept secret in philately. Nobody seems to want to tell how to get in touch with him or how to go about getting one of his certificates. Searched these Boards and all requests for info appear to have gone unanswered and Google does not give him up either. Love to get him to check some of mine to see if they are ok. Oh well.

Anyway thanks for your efforts keep up the good work. Looking forward to seeing the results of your scans of the other shades.

John G

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Micky »

G78, G102 & G103 I never knew KGV Heads could be so technical, is there a place I can find information about these codes and shades, seems to be so many out there.


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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by fossick »

Micky wrote:G78, G102 & G103 I never knew KGV Heads could be so technical, is there a place I can find information about these codes and shades, seems to be so many out there.


Micky
Hi Micky

Numbers quoted are shades of KGV 1d Red in either smooth or rough paper.

Good place to start is Brusden White KGV Catalogue.

Unfortunately latest edition is now over 5 years out of date, but it will open your eyes to colours and varieties.

But BEWARE it is addictive.

There are also numerous other publications, but start with BW.

Good Luck

John G

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by heldo1 »

Try as I might I cannot get a good handle on uv shades so your research will probably be very useful to me as I have multiples of many including G78 ( I am amazed by the cat values of some of these).
hello John D,

How sure are you that you have multiple copies of the G78? :roll:

This stamp would be the hardest to find of any of the 1d shades and I believe very few collectors of 1d Red shades have ever seen one let alone have 'multiples' like you state.

Are you sure you haven't mixed up the G75 & G76 shades instead? :mrgreen: The UV reaction of each is quite distinctive,and the G78 is only with Perf O.S.

The catalogue price of near $4000 for VFU copies is still way ahead of all the other shades,even the G102 103 LMWK Cookes.

I suppose you have Certificates for all your G78's from a respectable source like Simon Dunkerley or Michael Drury?

Perhaps you could post them on this board so that we could acquaint ourselves with this elusive shade??

I would be happy to share my examples with you. And yes, they do have Certificates from Simon Dunkerley and Michael has also seen them.

No worries I would be delighted to look at them. :D :D

regards heldo1



Hi KayGeeVee,

A nice repost on the Eosins from the Italian find. I agree with you that collecting all the Eosin shades and different post mark regions does not constitute hoarding. Not when he plans to publish some research on the stamp in the not too distant future.

Of course deep pockets would help his cause, but that's not hoarding with any intent to keep prices high. It's as you said.....market forces at work with a larger numbers of collectors scrambling for the limited stock that keep the price way above what I would consider reasonable.

Look at the price attained at phoenix auctions late last year for a Perf OS G27 ( $8000.00 ) ....and there were several bidders pushing up the price,myself included. I didn't win the lot though. I know of only three examples of this combination,which I believe only appeared after the 'Italian' find.

I, myself, would much prefer to find them in bundleware and I have been very lucky over this last year and now have three more G27's for Michael to expertise when I visit him later this year in Sydney.

I'm looking forward to his book though; when he gets around to it.

Sorry I haven't been in touch lately but have been slowly scanning all my 'stuff' for a large reference work on the shades. More about this later.

regards heldo1
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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Kaygeevee »

Hi heldo1,
Great to see you back again.
I think that this is the stamp you were talking about.

Image
From the Phoenix auction held on 25 Feb. 2011 Lot 1195.
It was described as "Pink Salmon Eosin Perf. OS" it has a pat Solomontown (South Australia) cancel.
Greg Ioannou wrote:
admin wrote:
starling wrote:
.... didn't realise someone was hoarding them though, must have deep pockets at $1000+ a pop :!:
You name him above. :)
Drury? That makes sense. He's in the perfect position to know when new ones come to market and pick them off if they're at all purchasable. And he is helping develop the market by certifying them.

He's why they sell for four figures, of course. He provides a floor price, so that anyone else who wants one has to always outbid him.

Greg
Greg. Here is a case where several bidders pushed the price way way above the price that Drury thought it would fetch, so he is not providing the "floor price" for these stamps.

Best regards David :)

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by The Pom »

Greg Ioannou wrote:
admin wrote:
starling wrote:
.... didn't realise someone was hoarding them though, must have deep pockets at $1000+ a pop :!:
You name him above. :)
Drury? That makes sense. He's in the perfect position to know when new ones come to market and pick them off if they're at all purchasable. And he is helping develop the market by certifying them.

He's why they sell for four figures, of course. He provides a floor price, so that anyone else who wants one has to always outbid him.

Greg
I always assumed he just bought masses of bulk 1d Reds & used his experienced eye to pick out the goodies that were missed by others.
Always on the lookout for Australian pre decimal First Day Covers.

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Kaygeevee »

Hi John (fossick)
I also would like to see your scans of the G 78's, they are a hard to find shade.

Mick Drury is very busy at the moment (well has been for the last few years) but when he retires (how many of us have said that) I'm sure the details of how to contact him will be made available.

Best regards David :)

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by heldo1 »

[quote][/qu
Hi heldo1,
Great to see you back again.
I think that this is the stamp you were talking about.

quote]


Hi David, Yes, thats the one. A beautiful stamp from any angle but at $8000...???? I still don't know. :? :?
Very busy at the moment,and not at stamp things. Will see you maybe at the Premier auction in a few weeks. You may then be able to talk to the person who won the above item. He is a collector and not so much interested in the eosins and other shades of the 1d but rather into very fine early Australian stamps for their fine condition and centring. I think you know who I'm talking about. He said he was prepared to pay any price to acquire the OS G27. I wasn't!
I never did find out if Michael was in the bidding over the phone.

Still...theres always another bundle to sort through and maybe ...just maybe there will be another....someday????

That's the hunt....for me anyway. 8) 8) :lol: :lol:

PS. Did you like the G78 and G27 posted?
regards heldo1
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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by fossick »

heldo1 wrote:
Try as I might I cannot get a good handle on uv shades so your research will probably be very useful to me as I have multiples of many including G78 ( I am amazed by the cat values of some of these).
hello John D,
How sure are you that you have multiple copies of the G78? :roll:
This stamp would be the hardest to find of any of the 1d shades and I believe very few collectors of 1d Red shades have ever seen one let alone have 'multiples' like you state.
Are you sure you haven't mixed up the G75 & G76 shades instead? :mrgreen: The UV reaction of each is quite distinctive,and the G78 is only with Perf O.S.
The catalogue price of near $4000 for VFU copies is still way ahead of all the other shades,even the G102 103 LMWK Cookes.
I suppose you have Certificates for all your G78's from a respectable source like Simon Dunkerley or Michael Drury?
Perhaps you could post them on this board so that we could acquaint ourselves with this elusive shade??
I would be happy to share my examples with you. And yes, they do have Certificates from Simon Dunkerley and Michael has also seen them.

No worries I would be delighted to look at them. :D :D

regards heldo1

Good morning Heldo1

It is John G not D.

I am not sure if I have, and I think I made it clear in my post that I wish to contact the expert Drury in order to find out what I have. ? need for rolling eyes!

Yes I am a novice at 1d reds :mrgreen: . I seek info. All that seems to be available is confusing words from those who profess to know how to check shades but are short on explanations on how to do it accurately. Almost like a secret club of need to know! :? :wink:

Starling posted a picture of his system and it seems to work from the pics of scans, hence my post/request.

I am travelling at present and will be away for several months so unable to post pictures from my (hoard) collection.

I will be only too pleased to do so on my return home in June. Please remind me.

It would be nice to have accurate reference examples of shades to compare against the list I have, I checked them and all appear different to each other under real daylight, OTT daylight and my paltry attempts at using a hand held uv light.

Look forward to any research information from the experts.

John G

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by heldo1 »

Hello again John G,
I didn't mean to upset you, it was a simple request. ....
To scan some stamps you think are G78 so that we could offer an opinion.
We could give you good information over a period of time. It is not a field for a novice I agree and it does seem like an old gentlemen's club at times but be patient and you will become addicted to the chase and the knowledge.
Michael Drury is very hard to contact I would agree but there are several others on this board who are experts in this field and will be only too happy to help. KayGeeVee is a senior member and a very experienced 1d Red collector for one, and I would be another. A scan of a stamp or two will get us off and running on helping you with your hoard to sort them out.

Simple as that.
regards heldo1
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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by starling »

Fossick (& others),

Yes, we don't mean to come across as abusive :oops: But if I had a dollar for every collection of 1d reds that I have bought over the years that had a hopeful identification for a particular stamp as a G78 or a G27, well I could afford to buy a G78 :lol: The plum and damson shades are much more common and even those are rarely (if ever) properly identified in collections :(

In the excellent monograph by Colin Beech The Redhead, in the entry for G78 he states that 'it (the shade) has often been used in the past as a dumping ground for every weird and odd rough paper shade'.

Heldo1 posted a great scan of a G78 above. Comparing shades off a computer screen can be dangerous, but I believe that it goes a long way to showing the strong orange component that one needs to look for for this seriously rare shade.


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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Allanswood »

starling wrote:
As for being able to capture the UV reactions, I think it is more my UV equipment than the camera that is the key. It is a pretty cheap digital camera, a Nikon Coolpix 14.0 megapixel with 5x zoom. I have to make it auto-focus a few times, flash off of course and then try and hold my hands steady enough as the exposure is maybe around a second or so, well I don't set that either, I use all automatic settings. I guess the beauty of a digital camera is that I can take dozens of shots and pick the best one, would have been impossible in the age of film :)

Scott

Go to one of those cheapy $2 shops, or Kmart etc and buy a $5-$10 mini tripod. They are only about 20cm high fully extended and do a fine job of holding the camera steady while you take a shot. Unless your camera doesn't have the thread on the bottom?

Set on macro, no flash, I find that my digital camera takes about a quarter second to take the shot.


Easier than taking 20 shots with shaky hands! Sorry their not KGV's.

Image



I even take photos of the watermark's through the signoscope.

Image




Not aimed at anybody but;
Posting a single stamp saying it's a particular "shade" onto a computer screen without anything else to give a visual comparison, be it the SG key or other colours/shades in the same image scanned at the same time means nothing. Near none of us will be looking at the same "colour" on our monitor.

Don't even start on the colour your eyes and brain see compared to the exact same stamp with the colour my eyes will see. We could stand side by side and see a different shade. :lol:
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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by fossick »

Thanks and apologies

No offence intended, just frustration comming through. Must be the thought of travelling thru NSW, Vic, SA & WA in a caravan with a shoe and jewellery magnet and being separated from my stamps for such a long period!

I had no idea that I had this (reference list of stamps).
When I bought the bulk lot it was just listed as a bulk lot, the stockbook with the "listings and samples" was just a nice surprise.
I knew I had to have it checked out somehow to verify what was what and when I saw the results of Starlings scans I thought.This looks like what I need, so what is this uv system exactly and how to I get my hands on one.
Cost is not relevant, and it will work out cheaper than buying a verified reference sample of each colour hopefully.

I live in Qld so its not like I can put the book under my arm and pop over to have it verified. This will have to be done long distance and will take time, but I will get it done.

So thanks for the offers of assistance, I will be in touch when I can touch my stamps (pardon the pun).

John G

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Kaygeevee »

John G and others,
re the type of UV lamp to use for checking KGV 1d Reds, check the link below:
http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11084

That's not how the link appears on other posts :mrgreen: Well click the Search button, type in:" U V Lamp to check KGV 1d Red Heads".
(you all know I'm a dunce on the computer) it will tell you how to build your own UV lamp, the parts cost a bit but it should last you a lifetime.

I have never found a hand held UV lamp that will identify the shades very good, sure it will show if the UV reaction is Purple brown or orange (with a slight degree of difference in the reaction) But if we all use the same type of globe/bulb as described in the above post (and most serious collectors of the KGV 1d do) we will be seeing the same type of reaction, then when you read Beech's book The Readhead you will have a better idea of what he is describing.

Best regards David :)

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Kaygeevee »

O! the link changed, maybe I'm not so silly :o

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Kaygeevee »

heldo1,
I like the G78 & G27, on my screen they give you an idea of what those shades should look like.
Hope to catch up with you at the auction.

Best regards David :)

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Kaygeevee »

starling wrote:Here are the three eosin 1d reds that I have.

Image
Image

The first one is the one I've used in the scans in the first few posts, certified as Deep Salmon Eosin. The second one with the machine cancel is certified as Salmon Eosin and the last one is a damaged and sun-faded Pale Pink Eosin. The last one despite being faded and in rough condition still shows the Eosin glow under the long wavelength UV light.

Unfortunately, the first one is the only one with an identifiable cancel.

Scott
Hi Scott,
A further update on your Eosins.
Image
Do you think that this looks like your 2nd Eosin ? if so guess where it came from, that's right from the Italian find. I don't think I can help you with the 3rd Eosin.
Sorry it's only black and white it's from a photocopy.
I think I'll stop now as I seem to be hogging the post.

Best regards David :)

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by starling »

Kaygeevee (David),

Don't worry about hogging this thread, you've given us some marvellous input.

Thanks also for giving some provenance to my second Eosin with the machine cancel. The third one (which is damaged) I am pretty sure isn't from the Italian Find. It was stuck on a piece of card that said Hyde Park Stamps and looked like it had been there for decades.


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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by starling »

Also, if anyone is unsure about just how popular the 1d red shades are and what ridiculous prices we devotees are willing to pay for them, here is probably the single rarest shade.

Image

It is known by its G-number as G103, deep red on large multiple watermark paper (Cooke printing). The above image is from one of Gabriele's sales lists (https://www.gabrieles.com.au) from late last year.

I ummed and arred for a while about whether I could afford it or not and which kidney I'd have to sell to be able to buy it :shock: But when I asked Gabriele about it she said that it had sold :( There can't be terribly many used Australian stamps that would sell for $8500 :?: Other than an Eosin perf. OS that is :!:

Does anyone have an idea of how many of the G103 and the equally rare G102 shades exist?


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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by fossick »

David

Please do not worry about hogging the thread. The help and information you are providing is first class.
I for one appreciate advice you have been giving.

Now all I need to do is get an acceptable uv device. I cannot decide whether to build one or buy one like Scott has. I am leaning toward your advice regarding all serious shade chasers having the same equipment so that we are all on the same sheet of music (as they say).

Your diagrams are easy enough to follow but a few more pics would be nice to get an idea of scale.

John G

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by Micky »

Oh I am sure I have one or two of those G103, sounds like something from a 'Get Smart' series. Will a lighthouse UV lamp do the job?

Micky

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Re: Australia 1d KGV Heads - Eosin shades discussion

Post by mobbor »

Heldo1
Hope it's o.k. to go back to this G78. It's the 1st one I've seen close-up.

heldo1 wrote:Hello John D,
Here is one of my G78's, it's quite distinctive from the G75 & G76 shades, and the UV reaction is a dull brown red with a hint of purple

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regards heldo1
It's a distinctive shade & I can see where the name comes from, but the dominant colour is still red. Shouldn't it be brownish orange red?

It's said to be related to the smooth paper orange red G14 1/2 which 1st appeared in Oct. 1917 & is not common after mar. 1918. BW says G78 didn't appear before Jul 1918. This is unusual, but perhaps the colour was considered so unsatisfactory, the release was held back & they were all perfed OS.

Beech considers they're status doubtful. BW does not & nor does Drury. I know he has several- unfortunately I just didn't get a close-up view.

Your thoughts?
mobbor

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