China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

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David Smitham
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China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by David Smitham »

Currently I am working my way through a large consignment - much is junk; however, the sole China cover is of interest and bears 3 - for want of a better expression - censor marks, the likes of which I have not previously encountered. As far as the date is concerned, the best that I can make it out is 31.1.6?

The (printed matter - hence top left corner removed so that the contents - now absent - could be inspected) airmail cover to NZ bears one of the 1960 goldfish stamps (#7) plus an additional 1 fen adhesive. The sender's address (written in English!) on the rear indicates that this was mailed in Canton. My initial thoughts were that this was some sort of mail sorting identification mark, but I am unaware of China being that advanced a country that required sorting machines in 1960.

Each mark is in black and comprises the digits "82". The two on the left side of the cover are not in line (hence likely ruling out a "continuous" type of cancellation) with each other, and are not in line with that on the right.

Please can someone advise what they are, why they were applied multiple times and how common they are?

Thank you.

David
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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by kuikka »

The best what I can make out of the date of the cancel on purple 1 fen stamp is "1962 11 12 16". I think the date is 12.NOV.1962. It seems to me that the marking you are asking for is roughly in the same position to the postmark, so, it may well be part of the postmark. Regarding its purpose, I am not aware of it.

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by David Smitham »

Thank you for the information re the date. As for "82" being part of the postmark - I had not considered it. That sounds plausible but strange.

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by OldDuffer1 »

David Smitham wrote:
05 Aug 2020 06:29
Thank you for the information re the date. As for "82" being part of the postmark - I had not considered it. That sounds plausible but strange.

David.
If you look on Delcampe there are other similar examples. Perhaps the indicate the postal area of a city?

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by aerogi »

At first sight, it looks more like B2 and not 82 to me. But that is not much of help probably... :mrgreen:

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by AMark »

OldDuffer1 wrote:
05 Aug 2020 21:26
David Smitham wrote:
05 Aug 2020 06:29
Thank you for the information re the date. As for "82" being part of the postmark - I had not considered it. That sounds plausible but strange.

David.
If you look on Delcampe there are other similar examples. Perhaps the indicate the postal area of a city?
OldDuffer1,

Can you please post a link to one of those covers that has "82" as part of the postmark?

Or better yet, please add an image of one of those covers to this thread. :)

Thanks!
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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by mikotz »

kuikka wrote:
04 Aug 2020 21:56
The best what I can make out of the date of the cancel on purple 1 fen stamp is "1962 11 12 16". I think the date is 12.NOV.1962. It seems to me that the marking you are asking for is roughly in the same position to the postmark, so, it may well be part of the postmark. Regarding its purpose, I am not aware of it.
Capture.PNG

That's well spotted - I used the top cancel to generate the pattern and rotated it to match the 2nd cancel, the location of '82' matched well. However, I still suspect if they belong in the same postmark, as the Chinese characters read in the direction of the arrow, while the digits are apparently inverted and deviated from the central line of the round cancel. My guess is that that the staff just grabs two postmarkers with the same hand when applying them, although still curious about the digit cancel...

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by David Smitham »

Thank you ... keep going!

I did not spy any similar cancels on covers on Delcampe. This makes me wonder whether this was a special cancellation for some purpose, but what I have no idea.

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by Global Administrator »


Odd cancel - the B2 does APPEAR to be part of it but strange it would be at such an angle? and INVERTED!

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by kuikka »

mikotz wrote:
06 Aug 2020 12:25
kuikka wrote:
04 Aug 2020 21:56
The best what I can make out of the date of the cancel on purple 1 fen stamp is "1962 11 12 16". I think the date is 12.NOV.1962. It seems to me that the marking you are asking for is roughly in the same position to the postmark, so, it may well be part of the postmark. Regarding its purpose, I am not aware of it.
Image


That's well spotted - I used the top cancel to generate the pattern and rotated it to match the 2nd cancel, the location of '82' matched well. However, I still suspect if they belong in the same postmark, as the Chinese characters read in the direction of the arrow, while the digits are apparently inverted and deviated from the central line of the round cancel. My guess is that that the staff just grabs two postmarkers with the same hand when applying them, although still curious about the digit cancel...
If you look the Chinese character closest to '82' (only the top of the inverted character is visible), then you can see it has moved slightly. That makes me think '82' is attached to the canceler but has some room to move (=is not one piece with CDS device).

I don't think someone has grabbed two separate devices as that would likely cause their surfaces not to align leaving patrial impression of one or both of them. If they are a separate devices I would expect there to be some kind of rig to help apply them same time.

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by OldDuffer1 »

AMark wrote:
06 Aug 2020 06:43

OldDuffer1,

Can you please post a link to one of those covers that has "82" as part of the postmark?

Or better yet, please add an image of one of those covers to this thread. :)

Thanks!
Hi, Only found one similar in fact, so obviously not common!

CHINA 1959 COVER.jpg
Oddly amongst "Covers and Documents 1960-1969" (Is dated, apparently, 1959)

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by mikotz »

kuikka wrote:
06 Aug 2020 17:23
mikotz wrote:
06 Aug 2020 12:25
kuikka wrote:
04 Aug 2020 21:56
The best what I can make out of the date of the cancel on purple 1 fen stamp is "1962 11 12 16". I think the date is 12.NOV.1962. It seems to me that the marking you are asking for is roughly in the same position to the postmark, so, it may well be part of the postmark. Regarding its purpose, I am not aware of it.
Image


That's well spotted - I used the top cancel to generate the pattern and rotated it to match the 2nd cancel, the location of '82' matched well. However, I still suspect if they belong in the same postmark, as the Chinese characters read in the direction of the arrow, while the digits are apparently inverted and deviated from the central line of the round cancel. My guess is that that the staff just grabs two postmarkers with the same hand when applying them, although still curious about the digit cancel...
If you look the Chinese character closest to '82' (only the top of the inverted character is visible), then you can see it has moved slightly. That makes me think '82' is attached to the canceler but has some room to move (=is not one piece with CDS device).

I don't think someone has grabbed two separate devices as that would likely cause their surfaces not to align leaving patrial impression of one or both of them. If they are a separate devices I would expect there to be some kind of rig to help apply them same time.
The post above by OldDuffer1 just showed exactly the effects of the round cancel leaving partial impression in the direction of the digits :D

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by kuikka »

mikotz wrote:
07 Aug 2020 00:30
kuikka wrote:
06 Aug 2020 17:23
mikotz wrote:
06 Aug 2020 12:25
kuikka wrote:
04 Aug 2020 21:56
The best what I can make out of the date of the cancel on purple 1 fen stamp is "1962 11 12 16". I think the date is 12.NOV.1962. It seems to me that the marking you are asking for is roughly in the same position to the postmark, so, it may well be part of the postmark. Regarding its purpose, I am not aware of it.
Image


That's well spotted - I used the top cancel to generate the pattern and rotated it to match the 2nd cancel, the location of '82' matched well. However, I still suspect if they belong in the same postmark, as the Chinese characters read in the direction of the arrow, while the digits are apparently inverted and deviated from the central line of the round cancel. My guess is that that the staff just grabs two postmarkers with the same hand when applying them, although still curious about the digit cancel...
If you look the Chinese character closest to '82' (only the top of the inverted character is visible), then you can see it has moved slightly. That makes me think '82' is attached to the canceler but has some room to move (=is not one piece with CDS device).

I don't think someone has grabbed two separate devices as that would likely cause their surfaces not to align leaving patrial impression of one or both of them. If they are a separate devices I would expect there to be some kind of rig to help apply them same time.
The post above by OldDuffer1 just showed exactly the effects of the round cancel leaving partial impression in the direction of the digits :D
I would expect the opposite effect for holding 2 device in one hand. That is based on assumption that the canceler is wider than its handle. If that is the case then the best impression would be where the devices meet and worst at the most far from the meeting point.

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by mikotz »

Depending on how many fingers are between the two postmarkers. If the number is 0, I agree with you. But if two or more fingers are used in between with the intention to separate the two devices, that's what we probably see here.

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by AMark »

I don't know if this adds anything to the topic, but found this cover from 1972? It has the number "36" along with the postmark.

China 1972 cover.png
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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by ligneN »

Canton p.o. is known for a variety of routing/sorting marks in the 1950s/70s. No censormark here.
And they appear on stamps, occasionally. Usually when there is just a corner mark on an adhesive, or it had escaped cancellation alltogether when placed on the reverse.

The cover is inscribed "printed matter" at the upper left margin. This corresponds to the 9f rate.
Also to the corner clipping, which admits inspection while the cover is sealed. That is called "open sealed" in several far east countries.

Except that a copy of the ever popular goldfish series has been used, there is nothing special with this cover IMHO.

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by AMark »

ligneN,

So, the number "82" or "36" are routing/sorting numbers. Are they part of a cancel or added afterwords?

Furthermore, do you have any explanation as to the numbers themselves? That is, how many different routing/sorting numbers are there and what exactly does "82" or "36" represent?

Thank you for your response! :)
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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by mikotz »

Just found two more examples with the digit cancels as below, both sent from Guangzhou in the 60s. Unfortunately for the 2nd cover I couldn't find a better image, but it could tell that different digit cancels were used together with the round one during this period in Guangzhou.

1
1
2
2

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by mikotz »

Regarding the use of the digits, my guess it is the ID of the post office staff who processed the mail. A few examples from other cities in the same period are found, the first one used the name of a staff - and yes, in this case I am pretty sure there should be two different postmarkers as I have seen similar before, one with a slim round knob but the other is rectangle. The second cover also had a digit cancel although the cancel is in Chinese characters.

4900-1.jpg
476fca007c64e9a95b05a2028b5727b4.jpg

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by OldDuffer1 »

ligneN wrote:
07 Aug 2020 08:36

Also to the corner clipping, which admits inspection while the cover is sealed. That is called "open sealed" in several far east countries.
That is very interesting in itself and presumably is a form of censorship or currency control. Can you expand a little on this theme?

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by ligneN »

OldDuffer1 wrote:
07 Aug 2020 20:41
ligneN wrote:
07 Aug 2020 08:36

Also to the corner clipping, which admits inspection while the cover is sealed. That is called "open sealed" in several far east countries.
That is very interesting in itself and presumably is a form of censorship or currency control. Can you expand a little on this theme?
Corner clipping is no censorship. Its just to enable postal checking if the contents are really "printed matter" and entitled to the cheaper printed matter rate.

One also sees covers with all 4 corners clipped, which I would call a "wrapper which will not use its content". :-)

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by ligneN »

AMark wrote:
07 Aug 2020 10:47
ligneN,

So, the number "82" or "36" are routing/sorting numbers. Are they part of a cancel or added afterwords?

Furthermore, do you have any explanation as to the numbers themselves? That is, how many different routing/sorting numbers are there and what exactly does "82" or "36" represent?

Thank you for your response! :)
They are not part of the dated postmark, but where applied later in process.
For more such examples see the two covers of Mikotz (110 and ?86).
The "110" went to portuguese Macao, so this is also foreign mail.
To Macao, for surface mail inland rates applied from PRC.
Last edited by ligneN on 10 Aug 2020 02:48, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by ligneN »

mikotz wrote:
07 Aug 2020 14:32
Regarding the use of the digits, my guess it is the ID of the post office staff who processed the mail. A few examples from other cities in the same period are found, the first one used the name of a staff - and yes, in this case I am pretty sure there should be two different postmarkers as I have seen similar before, one with a slim round knob but the other is rectangle. The second cover also had a digit cancel although the cancel is in Chinese characters.


Image

Image
This is different stuff than the arabian numeral marks typical for Canton p.o. foreign mail processing.

Cover from Peking. The arch framed one includes "179" in characters and is of a mail box (or a mail box inside a shop). Its a modern version of "letter box mark" and indicates origin. This typical arched style is already seen from 1920s and was probably just continued in usage.

Cover from Chungking. As of the 3-characters horizontal mark, a chinese native reader should explain if its a name or some phrase.

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by mikotz »

ligneN wrote:
10 Aug 2020 02:46
Cover from Chungking. As of the 3-characters horizontal mark, a chinese native reader should explain if its a name or some phrase.
Yes the 3 horizontal characters is a typical Chinese name Dianlun Zhao.

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Re: China - 1960 "82" censor (?) mark cover - help needed

Post by ligneN »

ligneN wrote:
10 Aug 2020 02:41
OldDuffer1 wrote:
07 Aug 2020 20:41
ligneN wrote:
07 Aug 2020 08:36

(..)

One also sees covers with all 4 corners clipped, which I would call a "wrapper which will not use its content". :-)

"...not loose its content." :mrgreen:

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