6d brown Kangaroo and map query

[tonyowen]

.
I have a 6d “roo and map” stamp – see image

The listed “brownish” colours for this stamp are chestnut and maroon.

My stamp seems to have a Type 3 watermark, but the listing for that watermark is die 2b
Die 2b applies to stamps with a broken vertical frame line in the top left corner

My stamp [SG 73???] does not seem to have that fault.

In addition the perforations are similar to a coil stamp on the Stampboards website???

Any help and suggestions welcome

Regards

Tony

[langtounlad]

The plates used to print this series were Die2B and to the best of my knowledge there were no substituted cliches of any other die.

The Die2B is identified by a number of features and your method is not the recommended.

First is the Die2A break in the inner left frame approx 12mm from top frame.

Next is a break in the top frame above space between S and T of AUSTRALIA (this is often inked in but usually shows a swelling of the frame)

Then there is the break where the top inner and right inner frames meet which occasionally appears to be missing but a decent magnifier will usually show it (in the CofA issue heavier inking tends to fill this corner in)

Fourth and fifth features which oddly are not referred to by many Australian collectors are a break in the line of shading above the words of value, 4mm from left frame, and a break in the line of shading immediately below the words of value, 3mm from left frame.

There are other features I use when plating but these are academic in nature and of little interest to the general collector.

For general usage I employ a common or garden variety plastic rule with the start marker laid squarely on top of the frame. I have seen variations of the above mentioned measurements produced by using different start points. I occasionally use a Vernier scale to exclude rogue breaks but only when plating.

If you have any further queries on the Kangaroo and Map series the knowledgeable people are available here https://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=125263#p125263

Regards
Frank

[tonyowen]

Hi Frank
Thanks for your detailed response
I use an 8x lupe [loupe] and a metal 300mm/ 12 inch rule
I cannot recognized any of the faults/errors/deviations mentioned on ‘my stamp’.
The observed watermark is an off-centred Type 3
There are no indications of partial crowns or “A”s that would indicate a type 4 [large Multiple] watermark.
It most certainly is not a C of A watermark.
Hence my query as to what it is.
Regards
Tony

[johnrcrow]

Any chance of a better scan of your stamp?

The photo? you show is not ideal for anyone else to make comments.

A scan (600-1200) would also allow higher magnification of the salient areas involved in identifying this stamp.

John

[Pampstamp]

Any chance of a better scan of your stamp?

The photo? you show is not ideal for anyone else to make comments.

A scan (600-1200) would also allow higher magnification of the salient areas involved in identifying this stamp.

John

What a horror show of a stamp!!
Looks like my five year old nephew has had a go at it

The ACSC states that all 6d Brown Roo stamps are Die11b
(3rd, SMW and Cof A)Whats the confusion?

The reason you cant identify it, is because its been run over!!
Its got lots of rust on it, and should be binned so as not to infect others!!

[tonyowen]

image at 1200 attached

[tonyowen]

Pampstamp
You say that "ACSC states that all 6d Brown Roo stamps are Die11b
(3rd, SMW and Cof A)Whats the confusion?"
The confusion is that I do not recognised any of the faults/errors of Die IIb on my stamp.
I assume [rightly or wrongly] that the whole plate has some or all of these faults/errors OR do these faults/errors occur on just some of the stamps produced by that Die???

Yes I can assume, but it is surely better to have an absolute answer to a confusion!!!

regards
Tony

[Pampstamp]

The confusion is that I do not recognised any of the faults/errors of Die IIb on my stamp.
I assume [rightly or wrongly] that the whole plate has some or all of these faults/errors OR do these faults/errors occur on just some of the stamps produced by that Die???

Yes I can assume, but it is surely better to have an absolute answer to a confusion!!!

regards
Tony

Again - whats the confusion?? There are NO assumptions here

This is really basic stuff available from most catologues

The red circles highlight the very obvious Die11b characteristics.

The only one not apparent is the obvious over- ink between the ST.

The stamp is worthless and if you want to keep it at least give it a very very hot bath!!

[johnrcrow]

I note the heading for the thread includes ´No question too silly etc... and help`.

I knocked this up before Pampstamp answered-- but here it is anyway.


Features of the 2b

John

[tonyowen]

John
I ignore people like pampstamp that cannot give a reply without being negative or destructively critical.

John, thank you. I'm surprised at the subtly of some of the 'errors' features of the IIB.

Most of my stamps [including some penny blacks] have been in my albums for more than five decades.
The albums have kept in a safe and opened every 10 years or so.
This last time was to rationalise my collections. Namely to limit GB, Empire and Commonwealth to Edward VIII, amnd to limit my 'rest of world' to 1945/50.
Stamps outside those limits are given to my granddaughter or put on eBay.

How to wash a stamp - I've been told to use warm/hot water, but is the stamp merely swished in the water, left for a few minutes or scrubbed!!!!!!
What do you recommend and what colours are best left alone.

regards and thanks again
Tony

[phrag99]

Tony, your stamp is dangerous! Not to you, but to any other stamp (or paper object) that it comes into contact with.

Those orange patches are rust, caused by a mould, and highly infectious. A soak in boiling water - no agitation - for at least 30 seconds is recommended. Do a search of the board on the search facility at the bottom of this page to read more, if necessary.

Unfortunately, even on Anglesey, taking out your stamps once every 10 years is inadequate and rust builds up. I bet you have it on several more stamps. Give them the same treatment. That's the easy bit, I find, as drying the stamp after a soak can be problematic. The best solution is a drying book, obtainable through all good philatelic accessory shops. I've recently tended to use 2 sheets of blotting paper adding a heavy book after 24 hours - the drying book is easier and I've ordered one for Christmas.

As someone who has a visual impairment (I know, so why do I collect stamps, then) I find that taking scans against a black background is better to obtain all detail of a stamp, especially the perfs. Also, in future, please also show the back of the stamp, as well. This board is a reference for the future and anyone with a similar problem might need to see the back which often gives additional information.

[tonyowen]

Thanks for the information.
Before this exercise I'd never heard of such 'contamination' - I assumed the marks were there due to age.
Anglesey is where I live at the moment - the albums have been in different geographical locations over the past 60 years or so.
I'll check my thousands of stamps and see what is what
Regarding the back of stamp - I'll do what you suggest even if the stamp back is covere with paper/card.
regards
Tony

[tonyowen]

Hi Phrag99

Out of curiosity I've done computer search for the mould/rust you describe.
The results [below] do not indicate the level of danger you infer

[Foxing is an age-related process of deterioration that causes spots and browning on old paper documents such as books, postage stamps, old paper money and certificates. The name may derive from the fox-like reddish-brown color of the stains, or the rust chemical ferric oxide which may be involved. Paper so affected is said to be "foxed".
Although unsightly and a negative factor in the value of the paper item for collectors, foxing does not affect the actual integrity of the paper.
Aside from foxing, other types of age-related paper deterioration include destruction of the lignin by sunlight and absorbed atmospheric pollution, typically causing the paper to go brown and crumble at the edges, and acid-related damage to cheap paper such as newsprint, which is manufactured without neutralizing acidic contaminants.
Causes of foxing
The causes of foxing are not well understood. One theory is that foxing is caused by a fungal growth on the paper. Another theory is that foxing is caused by the effect on certain papers of the oxidation of iron, copper, or other substances in the pulp or rag from which the paper was made. It is possible that multiple factors are involved. High humidity may contribute to foxing.

Repairing foxed documents
Foxed documents can be repaired, with greater or lesser success, using sodium borohydride, proprietary bleaches, dilute hydrogen peroxide or lasers. Each method risks side effects or damage to the paper or ink.

How do you remove foxing from stamps?
Simply immerse the stamp (don't do 2 at once) into the ammonia so that the stamp is covered. If the dish has a lid, you can swirl the liquid around the stamp. Leave the stamp in the solution for 30 (or up to 60) seconds then remove and rinse or soak for a bit before drying.
How do you clean dirty stamps?
Take a bowl and carefully fill it with warm tap water. Then add some dish soap and gently stir to mix, bit do not make too sudsy. Place the stamps in the water and soak overnight. Then in the morning take them out and place them on paper towels to dry.

Note: no concentration is given for the ammonia

I'm confused so I'd like your opinion on the above

regards
Tony

[JohnB]

Hi Phrag99

Out of curiosity I've done computer search for the mould/rust you describe.
The results [below] do not indicate the level of danger you infer

Tony, trust the opinions here. They are formed from a multiple of lifetimes collecting stamps. I learned the hard way, keeping a plastic box full of toned/foxed stamps along with clean stamps.

Fortunately they were not valuable and were easily replaced. My mistake was ignorance.

Sometimes a gentle wash for a couple of minutes in warm water is all that is required. Other times I have used a spot of washing up liquid (ammonia sounds alarming) and hot water and a longer soak. Check these Boards to find out which stamps you can soak without worry.

Search the Board for fugitive colours and which are definite not suitable for soaking. There is a wealth of information on the subject here. Like this one :

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=14862

Practise on easily replaced/already ruined stamps before attempting more valuable ones. I find soaking (and drying) quite revealing.

I also agree with you that the characteristics that determine the plating of stamps are often so subtle (to many of us) that they are not recognised until someone sticks a luminous arrow at the relevant part of the stamp.
.

[pelmen]

Out of curiosity I've done computer search for the mould/rust you describe.
The results [below] do not indicate the level of danger you infer

...

I'm confused so I'd like your opinion on the above

Well you can believe or not what you've been advised about here.

Those brown/orange spots on stamps ARE universally found and they DO spread to stamps that are clean. As to precisely what causes/spreads foxing I don't think I've ever seen a definitive proven analysis.

Just plenty of ideas and opinions. None of that is relevant, it is universally an unwanted feature that can reduce the value of any stamp to zero. From decades of experience from collectors around the world it DOES spread as well as worsen over time.

Used stamps soaked in hot water and dried in a good drying book seem to become "stabilised". Housing stamps in cheap albums, like those common Chinese ones seem to attract foxing like dog dirt attracts flies. Likewise second hand albums is bad practice.

Households with smokers and pets also introduce nasty airborne particles of biological and chemical material that is also harmful to paper. So how you house and treat your stamps will determine if it will survive years or not.

Clearly you have little understanding of stamp collecting from this thread. You need to invest time to read your ACSC to understand things like identifying Dies and constant flaws among the extensive information it provides. As Glen parrots : "Knowledge is power".

But its useless sitting in a reference book that you don't bother reading. Also search this forum for Foxing, Staining, Browning, Rusting as those brown marks have been repeatedly covered already.
.

[tonyowen]

Housing stamps in cheap albums, like those common Chinese ones seem to attract foxing like dog dirt attracts flies.

I have:
Stanley Gibbons New Imperial from new
Hand made loose leaf ‘album’ from new [in 1950s]

Clearly you have little understanding of stamp collecting from this thread.

I’ve been collecting stamps since the 1940s – its the “new fine details ie plate differences” that I’m unclear about hence the questions. I’d rather ask a lot of [seemingly obvious ] questions than assume something and find out it was wrong.

What is wrong about questioning - it is a fundamental action of science?

regards
Tony

[Global Administrator]

I ignore people like pampstamp that cannot give a reply without being negative or destructively critical.

Well you will end up with a ton of ruined stamps then. Lucky you.

Why not learn how to add air and spacing here (and a few others can take heed of that too) instead of banging your head against the cement wailing the world is against you?

And also read up on how the simple QUOTE feature works -- your posts are impossible to follow. Even if they did make sense.

Admin

[tonyowen]

John B
I followed your link
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=14862

and found [from Global Administrator]
" The usual (sensible) rule of thumb is do nothing.
In over 30 years of dealing I've seen more stamps ruined by folks messing about who have no idea what they are doing, than stamps they have improved."

regards
Tony

[tonyowen]

Why not learn how to add air and spacing here ........... the simple QUOTE feature

What do you mean by "add air and spacing"?
Found the quote feature - [looked for such a feature but did not find it before]

regards

Tony

[Global Administrator]

.
Interesting location you have tonyowen.

I think we will let you boil your stamps in Ammonia, or whatever your wacko web research led you to believe is the solution for your manky stamp.

Before you share with members the thoughts of some other undisclosed nutter on some other undisclosed site, saying a quick dip in Sulphuric acid is the real answer etc, I'll lock this thread to save others from your newest research you stumble across.

Good luck with your exciting 6d brown coil stamp.

Thread locked, to save a lot of stamps I suspect.

Admin
.